Powder Appearing On Fud After Storage

Discussion in 'Finishing Techniques' started by Model_Monkey, Dec 5, 2016.

  1. Aniselgni
    Aniselgni Member
  2. Aniselgni
    Aniselgni Member
  3. Keystone_Details
    Keystone_Details Well-Known Member
    What was/is the resolution (pun intended) here? Has the root cause been determined by Shapeways? What are the Shapeways recommendations?

    Lots of info here but no closure. Is this a real issue or coincidence of some?

    Mitchell, anyone from Shapeways care to bring this to a close?

    Please note that I am specifically asking the Shapeways team.
    00dwkr likes this.
  4. bkdale86
    bkdale86 Member
    I have ordered from SW 6 or 7 times, and have had reprints 3 times and ALL of prints developed the crystals after cleaning and exposure to air. Scraping off crystals isn't an option on 1/700 scale aircraft with fine detailing. Blaming oxygen exposure is weak because every model will be exposed to air unless you vacuum seal a display case (which I have never seen). I treated the prints as an experiment that failed (200+ dollars worth) and went with a custom vendor that used a different method that had much better results than the prints from SW and required no clean up (vs same model from SW). I follow model monkeys threads on the modelwarship and would probably buy some if he offered it from another process/vendor. I just can't see dealing with the headache any more.
    00dwkr likes this.
  5. Aniselgni
    Aniselgni Member
  6. Aniselgni
    Aniselgni Member
  7. crashtestdummy
    crashtestdummy Well-Known Member
    I got to add myself to the "Me too" squad. My only affected part so far is a FXD part which sat on my desk and got passed around (it has a base designed for holding and to show off the part) Sure enough the cavities show crystallization but the outer free standing stuff and the main body is crystal free. Otherwise most of my other projects have been in S&F.

    My thinking is the wax plays a part somehow ether some sort of residue or it is getting fused with the resin in some way that is causing an uncontrolled secondary reactions. Also a further thought what if its not oxygen but with the moisture in the air and variations in humidity are affecting the change over time?
    00dwkr likes this.
  8. jjschaible
    jjschaible Member
    "My thinking is the wax plays a part somehow ether some sort of residue or it is getting fused with the resin in some way that is causing an uncontrolled secondary reactions."

    I've two different theories. Still waiting for answers to private questions sent to SW & 3DS, but my fav working hypothesis (w/o any analytical testing yet or a background in polymer chemistry) is the crystal bloom arises from urethane acrylate rich areas, that are relatively lacking in protective TEGDMA derived polymers. If the UA is laid down first on the wax supports, and thus exposed once the wax is removed, it might explain why the crystallization is more pronounced on the areas adjacent to the wax.

    Some of the examples I've seen also have crystallization on what seems to be areas not adjacent to wax. But in these cases, seems they were also subjected to an incompatible solvent prior to painting (Acetone). If UA related, a explanation for this is the solvent may be stripping away TEGDMA, exposing more of the UA lattice, thus allowing it to see accelerated oxidation degradation.

    For completeness, as I previous stated elsewhere, my alternative working hypothesis (again, based on zero analytical testing, etc) is that the crystals are derived from the TEGDMA (perhaps in the pHEMA compound family), perhaps converted via photooxidation and/or exposure to solvents (e.g. heptane). Some mol in the pHEMA family are wildly hydroscopic, and expand significantly from exposure to humidity. (Thus an alternative theory as to why the SW packaging might be preventing the observation of an iridescent crystal bloom.)
    sozzap23 likes this.
  9. crashtestdummy
    crashtestdummy Well-Known Member
    I was setting out some parts to sit in the sun since its sunny and calm, including my first FXD print which generally lived on my desk, in front of a generally closed window, unless I took it to events. One side, which was nether up or down but has cavities for a grill has been becoming increasingly more crystalline, the exact opposite side with a similar grill no sign of any changes. Also there was minimal build up of crystals until a few months ago when I washed the part after a show were it was handled by many people and let it soak and shook in a container of dawn dish soap and water. I'm about to wrap up for the day but if I think about it I'll post pics from a few months ago vs today before sunning (and maybe after too) so there is some reference of changes over time.
    00dwkr likes this.
  10. jjschaible
    jjschaible Member
    Comparing the new (June 2017) SR200 SDS from 3DS to the old MSDS on the SW website, the identification of a constituent compound previously described to the public only as a proprietary "reactive monomer" is disclosed as Isobornyl acrylate (7 - 10%). This may be a meaningful revelation on this topic of FUD crystals, as IBA itself is known to catalyze oxidative photodegradation. Still unsure if this cmpd is the culprit that results in the formation of the crystal bloom, as to date, I've not received any reply to my technical questions.
  11. crashtestdummy
    crashtestdummy Well-Known Member
    I don't think you will get any reply from SW or the vendor but if you want to get a vague "were looking into it" reply on here just invoke the competer's names and they will appear like a Genie.
  12. Andrewsimonthomas
    Andrewsimonthomas Shapeways Employee Community Team
    Hey all,

    @crashtestdummy did someone rub my bottle?

    These are are good thoughts for why it happens in some cases and are in line our theories too but we still haven't confirmed a cause. We're working with or manufacturing team and partners to figure it out. Thanks for continuing to share instances of when you see this issue and providing us with data.

    We'll keep you updated with more info has it develops, and when you see frosting please help us by notifying CS so we can document it.
    Model_Monkey likes this.
  13. AgeOfPlastic
    AgeOfPlastic Member
    Half the parts I've printed in Frosted Detail now have noticeable crystallisation.

    What can be done with the parts now? They're sort of useless as is.
  14. moggs5618
    moggs5618 Member
    Just started printing parts and intend to use cellulose primer and paint, will the plastic be affected?
  15. jjschaible
    jjschaible Member
    @AgeOfPlastic and others reporting crystallized FUD/FXD.

    To aid our community effort to ID and develop ways to avoid, it would be helpful to include some observations (and ideally photos) including:

    A. Approx date of print (as well as date of removal from protective packaging, if significantly later)
    B. End user cleaning methods (e.g., MEK, acetone, heptane or soap & water, etc)
    C. End user finishing methods (e.g., type of adhesives, primer and paint)

    For remediation, we've heard from others some success in removal of their crystal bloom on the surface of painted parts by simply brushing away with a dry or wet (water) paint brush. Others have used light airbrushing to blow it off.
    Last edited: Dec 13, 2017
    Model_Monkey and Rogalskij like this.
  16. Aniselgni
    Aniselgni Member
    This topic has been active for more than a year. The problem wasn't solved. Perhaps filing a complaint with the Better Business Bureau will speed up troubleshooting?
    The_Old_Factory and 00dwkr like this.
  17. The_Old_Factory
    The_Old_Factory Active Member

    Incredible ! Nearly 1 YEAR after you finally acknowledged that there is a bad crystallization problem with your highest resolution FED and FUD multi-jet plastics from 3DSystems, still not a word from you about a solution since months and months and not even a word about How To instructions about how to clean up, glue and paint that material nor the list of cleaners and chemicals to avoid and the list of paints glues and solvents to avoid !

    What is the official response from 3DSystems about this ? What have they done exactly so far to fix this ? And most importantly what is the mysterious manufacturer of the resin for 3DSystems doing to fix their bad batches problem and or provide a better, stable resin ??

    It now looks like you are laughing at us after such a long, extremely long time have passed and not a word from you about solutions. I was suspecting since the start that Shapeways would do Nothing. 1 year plus of us waiting confirms that.

    By the way, what is the real reason your CEO abruptly resigned last summer in the midst of all that crystallization crisis that plus all the giant price hikes for your highest resolution materials and the myriad of very unhappy store owners ?

    As for me, I am no longer wasting time: I have ordered my own high resolution 3D printer this month, for a surprisingly low price from a manufacturer known for the very high resolution of their previous resin 3D printers, and even though it is small compared to a 3DS 3500 HD Max, it will do all the things Shapeways isn't willing or able to do: print my parts vertically at max resolution over Way more than their max 5cm tall for FED, print at a resolution equivalent to that of FED or their acrylate resin, print my tallest parts (nearly 12 cm tall) in batches (yes, batches !!), and do so with the same resolution from one edge of the resin vat to the other ! And best of all, no more blocked/cancelled sales for ludicrous reason from technicians who do not understand the needs of modelers nor what is a relevant actual model feature and what is not) and my cost for the material will be light years cheaper than what SW charges (actually way lower than their previous 6$ per cm cube pricing).

    It is not like they gave me, us, too much of a choice, it is either do it yourself (& better than Shapeways) or let them continue to destroy our market and the confidence of our thousands of customers, about who apparently they could not care less (scale modelers) because they have shown how little respect they have for them by doing nothing and offering Nothing to solve this problem.
    nkefalas and 00dwkr like this.
  18. The_Old_Factory
    The_Old_Factory Active Member

    2 more months and a half have passed. Any news on your research and any specific news from 3DSystems about a solution ?

    Over 1 year to solve this and with the millions of dollars in financing from Shapeways and the no doubt hundreds of millions of $$$ of 3DSystems and still no answer or solution is a real joke...
  19. Neemoz
    Neemoz Member
    Hi Old Factory

    I must admit I'm somewhat curious as to your almost religious fervour against FUD and FXD.
    Whilst there are a few issues surrounding the support material, it's nothing some careful design work and orientation wouldn't minimise. There are a few incredibly talented designers on Shapeways some of which have commented on this forum, and I'm sure they don't take kindly to these kind of conspiracy theories being thrown around.
    Some of the designers on this forum literally sell hundreds if not more items every month and their customers keep coming back for more. I do wonder whether you're a competitor or have some other reason to fear monger?

    I was also wondering when you're planning on releasing all those products you mentioned in a previous post that are going to sell to thousands of people? personally I can't wait looking at the items on your Shapeways shop...

    sozzap23 and Model_Monkey like this.
  20. The_Old_Factory
    The_Old_Factory Active Member
    Seeing as yourself you have no shop while I have two I am more than a bit curious also why my attempts to have Shapeways and 3DS fix a quality problem that was first reported by a shop owner with lots of models back in late 2016 is bothering you is a bit odd. I would suggest you go back several pages to get more information and see the dozens of people both client and store owners who complained. Mind you I have nothing against FED & FUD material When it Works without producing crystallization. It's the contaminated or problematic batches I have a problem with, otherwise when the FUD & FED parts are not affected by this problem it is a fantastic material given the 16 microns resolution. But as long as they don't fix this issue affecting a large number of parts and modelers, nobody who respects his customers would want to sell thousands of parts made with those materials. You know as well as I that it would be a liability that could make a company's reputation (store owners here) go out the window due to parts produced with a defective material. And last I checked there isn't any 'conspiracy theory' here. Shapeways themselves admitted there is a problem over 1 year ago.

    And for your info I spent a couple of years designing a series of products designed and tailored specifically for the 16 microns resolution of FED. So you can bet I have a vested interest on this. So until they fix this my whole line of detail parts is stalled. Also it would be hard for me to be a 'competitor' to you, as you don't have a store. ..
    Last edited: Apr 19, 2018 at 10:19 PM