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Hinges and Axels [message #1917] Sat, 08 November 2008 01:32 GMT

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I've heard from other articles that interlocking pieces that need to move should be 1cm apart, however for things like hinges or car axels that would be too much (for a small car), if I printed an axel, hinge or track with 1-5mm space separately would they fit together? Let me know if I didn't explain this clearly enough.

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Re: Hinges and Axels [message #1919 is a reply to message #1917 ] Sat, 08 November 2008 05:46 GMT

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Good news! Smile

Smile

I dont think it's 1 cm apart. I think you may have misread...

Someone could easily have cautioned you to make sure they were 1mm apart though. What post did you read this in?

-Whystler

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Re: Hinges and Axels [message #1923 is a reply to message #1919 ] Sat, 08 November 2008 13:44 GMT

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I can't remember. I posted this because I couldn't find the ones I looked at. 1mm makes far more sense, but is this space required so it doesn't print the two parts as one or because the final result has a margin of error? e.g. if I printed two objects separately with only .5mm or even .2mm would they still fit together?

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Re: Hinges and Axels [message #1926 is a reply to message #1917 ] Sun, 09 November 2008 01:44 GMT

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Actually, in this thread WetMorgoth suggests

Quote:

Right now I believe our minimum tolerance is 0.1mm. Anything less than that will be fused by our backend processing.

but also suggests keeping gaps above 0.25mm.

I have to say that would be great news if the gaps can be 0.25mm, but I'm not sure if they really can be.

Hopefully someone will show us their experiments when they do them Smile

Smile

[Updated on: Sun, 09 November 2008 09:10 GMT]

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Re: Hinges and Axels [message #1935 is a reply to message #1926 ] Sun, 09 November 2008 15:56 GMT

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Perhaps if someone has time to make some small models to test this? If small enough, we could build them and add photos to the site in a tutorial.

Any takers?

regards,
Peter

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Re: Hinges and Axels [message #1936 is a reply to message #1935 ] Sun, 09 November 2008 16:12 GMT

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I'm up for building stuff. I can make a hinge parts that fit together with about 1mm of clearence, then we can try printing them together in place or separately and fitting them together. If you have other ideas or suggestions let me know.

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Re: Hinges and Axels [message #1940 is a reply to message #1936 ] Sun, 09 November 2008 23:57 GMT

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I've made:

http://www.shapeways.com/model/8473/hinge_test__separated_.h tml

and

http://www.shapeways.com/model/8474/hinge_test__in_place_.ht ml

I'm also planning on making a little cylinder (about 5mm radius) and a cube with cylinders cut out of it (5, 5.05, 5.1, 5.15 radii or something like that) to test the accuracy of the material.

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Re: Hinges and Axels [message #1944 is a reply to message #1917 ] Mon, 10 November 2008 01:55 GMT

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As a side project im currently working on making somthing like a rollerblade wheel, so it will have bearings, axle, screws and some other close tolerances.
Depending on how much it cost for the size i want, i will print it and get some videos demonstrating it.

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Re: Hinges and Axels [message #1945 is a reply to message #1944 ] Mon, 10 November 2008 01:59 GMT

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Awesome, I happened to see some videos on youtube with ball bearing rollers. I'm curious how that will work out with friction etc.

Youtube links:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u7h09dTVkdw

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qwSxUzrOzSE

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Re: Hinges and Axels [message #1947 is a reply to message #1940 ] Mon, 10 November 2008 11:45 GMT

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pzich, great work. Can you clarify the comment in the models. Is it 1mm radius or diameter clearance? In other words if the pin is dead centre in the sleeve, is there 1mm either side, or 0.5mm either side making 1mm in total?

Also the cube with varying size holes is a great idea.

If you print these, please be sure to post a video.

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Re: Hinges and Axels [message #1950 is a reply to message #1947 ] Mon, 10 November 2008 12:53 GMT

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It's a good thing you asked. I was ititially designing it with 1mm clearence on all sides, but I just measured it and there is .5mm clearence.

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Re: Hinges and Axels [message #1953 is a reply to message #1917 ] Mon, 10 November 2008 16:26 GMT

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I might print them but I'm not sure if it'd be better for me to or our friends at shapeways. I don't have much use for them and it would probably be at least two weeks to get them to my house.

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Re: Hinges and Axels [message #1960 is a reply to message #1953 ] Mon, 10 November 2008 22:26 GMT

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Hey Peter,

thanks for uploading the models so quickly. Could you perhaps clip the 'wings' a little? If it is really small we can print it as an add on. After that I will make pictures and post them.

Actually made some nice hinges and gears pictures today.
Will post a blog tomorrow.

regards,
Peter

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Re: Hinges and Axels [message #1962 is a reply to message #1960 ] Mon, 10 November 2008 22:47 GMT

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I've cut the model size down quite a bit, the actual length of the hinge has been cut in half and the wings have been cut down quite a bit, price has also been cut in to one third of the original price.

http://www.shapeways.com/model/8553/hinge_test_mini__in_plac e_.html

http://www.shapeways.com/model/8554/hinge_test_mini__separat ed_.html

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Re: Hinges and Axels [message #1963 is a reply to message #1962 ] Mon, 10 November 2008 23:41 GMT

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Hi Peter,

thanks. Will have them made and make some pictures.

regards,
Peter

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Re: Hinges and Axels [message #1972 is a reply to message #1917 ] Tue, 11 November 2008 03:45 GMT

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I have also created the Pin and Holes model I was talking about:

http://www.shapeways.com/model/8558/pin_and_holes.html

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Re: Hinges and Axels [message #1983 is a reply to message #1972 ] Tue, 11 November 2008 15:35 GMT

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I just created and ordered this model to check out tolerances and friction:

http://www.shapeways.com/model/8592/friction_tolerance_test. html

Once it's in, I'll do a blog post about it.

Cheers,

Bart

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Re: Hinges and Axels [message #1986 is a reply to message #1983 ] Tue, 11 November 2008 22:30 GMT

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Very nice, although I think it would be interesting to see a circular hole, just to see how the pixelization factors in, since it is printing in a grid. Both would be great to know, I've got a few things in mind (engine, car, etc.) that have rotating parts, I'm hoping for very little spacing for the axes/crankshaft/hinges. Keep us posted.

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Re: Hinges and Axels [message #1987 is a reply to message #1962 ] Tue, 11 November 2008 22:50 GMT

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Hi,

this one is also in production:
www.shapeways.com/model/8553/hinge_test_mini__in_place_.html

regards,
Peter

[Updated on: Tue, 11 November 2008 22:51 GMT]

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Re: Hinges and Axels [message #1994 is a reply to message #1917 ] Wed, 12 November 2008 14:21 GMT

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I was woundering about the materials friction, Would you think it be best to use a roller type bearing or ball bearings with the ST&F material?

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Re: Hinges and Axels [message #2047 is a reply to message #1994 ] Wed, 19 November 2008 15:29 GMT

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Hi guys,

the test prints came in today! We made a quick movie with a mobile phone to show you how they work - sorry about the shaky quality Smile

Smile

We'll turn it into a proper blog post later this week but I wanted to share this here first.

Enjoy!

Bart

@pzich: we'll send those samples your way, thanks!

Attachment: hinge-demo.mp4
(Size: 10.66MB, Downloaded 232 time(s))

[Updated on: Wed, 19 November 2008 15:30 GMT]

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Re: Hinges and Axels [message #2048 is a reply to message #2047 ] Wed, 19 November 2008 15:37 GMT

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And a close-up pics to show some detail.

Cheers,

Bart

Attachment: detail.jpg
(Size: 67.67KB, Downloaded 248 time(s))

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Re: Hinges and Axels [message #2066 is a reply to message #2047 ] Sat, 22 November 2008 03:36 GMT

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Thanks for testing this for us! I'm happy to report my axel test http://www.shapeways.com/model/8514/test_car.html worked beautifully. The axels move freely and with little friction, overall a huge success.

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Re: Hinges and Axels [message #2096 is a reply to message #2066 ] Wed, 26 November 2008 22:39 GMT

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Hi Peter,

we also printed your pin and holes (link)
However none of the combinations work even with some force.

0.1 mm is not enough clearance, but only just.

regards,
Peter

[Updated on: Wed, 26 November 2008 22:39 GMT]

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Re: Hinges and Axels [message #2145 is a reply to message #1917 ] Tue, 02 December 2008 14:46 GMT

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I wonder what was the clearance on that axle on a car frame test?

'Almost 0.1mm' seems nice...waiting for the blog post Smile

Smile

Nvm found the blog post
http://www.shapeways.com/blog/archives/141-Creating-hinges-a nd-moving-parts.html

[Updated on: Tue, 02 December 2008 14:49 GMT]

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Re: Hinges and Axels [message #2150 is a reply to message #1917 ] Wed, 03 December 2008 14:17 GMT

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http://www.shapeways.com/model/10080/mechanical_iris___singl e_assembly.html

I've just uploaded the ultimate in clearance tests Smile

Smile

Going to order this tomorrow morning and see how it goes Smile

Smile

(too late/dark to look for my wallet)

index.php?t=getfile&id=169&private=0

index.php?t=getfile&id=169&private=0

Attachment: Iris2Assembly.jpg
(Size: 55.12KB, Downloaded 721 time(s))

[Updated on: Wed, 03 December 2008 14:19 GMT]

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Re: Hinges and Axels [message #2152 is a reply to message #2150 ] Wed, 03 December 2008 15:22 GMT

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That looks incredible. I take it that you're ordering it already assembled? I hope it comes out functional.

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Re: Hinges and Axels [message #2163 is a reply to message #1917 ] Thu, 04 December 2008 10:34 GMT

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I pray it comes out functional too and not fused together ... got 0.25mm to 0.4mm gaps everywhere...

Ordered it this morning so hopefully will get to play with it before xmas Smile

Smile

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Re: Hinges and Axels [message #2175 is a reply to message #1917 ] Fri, 05 December 2008 21:02 GMT

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That looks awesome, please let us know how it turns out. And if you don't mind, could you tell us about what software and methods you used to make this? Thank you.

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Re: Hinges and Axels [message #2189 is a reply to message #1935 ] Mon, 08 December 2008 14:39 GMT

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I read this thread and also this link.

I misread the tolerance guidance for moving parts, stating it should be GREATER THAN 0.25mm. I made all hinge tolerances in this model 0.25mm. All the joints fused during printing Sad

Sad

EDIT - My tolerances were - 0.125mm not 0.25mm!!!
0.25mm may still work, but I'll have to reprint my model to find out.

I'm trying again with 0.5mm as the tolerance in all of the hinges. Hopefully it will work, its only my first 3D printing experiment.

To give you all a better idea of what I'm making, its a small mechanical design that will actuate a complex origami membrane as part of my ongoing ArtScience called oribotics, there are a total of 15 hinges that operate with a hand-like open and closing.

index.php?t=getfile&id=172&private=0

index.php?t=getfile&id=172&private=0

Attachment: oribot-net-0.5mm.png
(Size: 27.58KB, Downloaded 650 time(s))

[Updated on: Mon, 08 December 2008 15:03 GMT]

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Re: Hinges and Axels [message #2190 is a reply to message #2189 ] Mon, 08 December 2008 14:44 GMT

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.25mm fused? That's unfortunate, also a bad sign for some of the models I'm making...

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Re: Hinges and Axels [message #2191 is a reply to message #2190 ] Mon, 08 December 2008 15:00 GMT

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Oh no! I realised typing this that my rod was 1mm and my holes are 1.25mm (duh), meaning my gaps are on 0.125 mm (my mistake and a really silly one)... I'll edit my previous post to correct this misinformation.

I also think that the design of the model may be a contributing factor. So the next design I will print, I've tried to add as much air as I can around the hinge joints so that the unfused material can be easily cleaned out. 0.25mm is tiny gap to stick something between.

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Re: Hinges and Axels [message #2194 is a reply to message #2191 ] Mon, 08 December 2008 16:45 GMT

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Thanks for checking on this. I also found out the model I was worrying about has .5mm, not .25mm clearance (I forgot I left myself some space). Hope your project is successful.

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Re: Hinges and Axels [message #2198 is a reply to message #2194 ] Mon, 08 December 2008 20:47 GMT

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Hi guys!

Please let us know when you are experimenting with tolerances for Living Hinges! We are very interested in the results but can also help out on the evaluation if the hinges are going to work.

When you order such a model just enter a message for me in the contact form with your order/invoice number and we will take special care of it.

You can find the contact form at http://www.shapeways.com/contact/contact-form

Cheers!

Robert

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Re: Hinges and Axels [message #2199 is a reply to message #2191 ] Mon, 08 December 2008 21:02 GMT

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oribotic wrote on Mon, 08 December 2008 10:00

Oh no! I realised typing this that my rod was 1mm and my holes are 1.25mm (duh), meaning my gaps are on 0.125 mm (my mistake and a really silly one)... I'll edit my previous post to correct this misinformation.

I also think that the design of the model may be a contributing factor. So the next design I will print, I've tried to add as much air as I can around the hinge joints so that the unfused material can be easily cleaned out. 0.25mm is tiny gap to stick something between.

I'm sorry it feels wrong but I was relieved to see your mistake.
Hehe when I read your first post I was certain that my model (with 0.25+ gaps) was going to be $40 wasted on a fused blob.

Robert Sad

Sad

Special care? Mines already in production...OH MY GOD ITS SHIPPED! And with tracking number and all Smile

Smile

Shapeways has improved a lot Smile

Smile

Expected delivery 11Dec Smile

Smile

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Re: Hinges and Axels [message #2200 is a reply to message #2199 ] Mon, 08 December 2008 21:37 GMT

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@madox its cool, I'm glad I found the error. It was your question that prompted me to double check, so thanks. I also did a 2nd test in the batch, with the same model just scaled 1.25 times, so the tolerance was 0.15mm (still too small). Good luck with your project. Let us know how it goes.

@Robert, thanks for letting us know we can get some expert help on this, its cool stuff, and I've more ideas I'd like to experiment with.

[Updated on: Tue, 09 December 2008 14:07 GMT]

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