Paint On Frost Extrem Details Parts

Discussion in 'Finishing Techniques' started by fb292e0, Jan 20, 2017.

  1. fb292e0
    fb292e0 Member
    Dear All,

    I would like information regarding the possibility to paint the parts which are printed in FED.
    In my case I would use paint from John Deere tractors Manufacturer diluted with thinner for cleaning (or other one) and applicated with AirBrush after primer.

    I use it already on evergreen plastique, is it the same ?

    The guy who make drawings for me told me that it could be not compatible .... What are the risks ?

    Furthermore, what is the best way to prepare parts ? For your information some parts are really really thin...

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    Thank you very much,

    Fabien
     
    Last edited: Jan 20, 2017
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  2. stonysmith
    stonysmith Well-Known Member Moderator
    Evergreen is styrene, and you can use enamel paints on it.
    FUD/FXD is an acrylic plastic, and you should use acrylic paints.

    The FUD/FXD printing process includes a waxy "support" material that sometimes leaves a bit of residue. If you'll search the forum, you'll find a number of opinions as to what to use to clean it: You probably need to do your own experimenting to see what
    -150F degree hot water
    -various dish washing soaps
    -ultrasonic cleaner
    -acetone
    -heptane

    Heptane is my personal favorite. It's sold in the US as a product named Bestine, but the price of heptane has gotten insanely expensive over the last few months. A good bit of getting the process right is getting the time correct. If you leave FUD sitting in heptane overnight, it might just dissolve completely :(
     
    Last edited: Jan 20, 2017
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  3. czhunter
    czhunter Well-Known Member
    I was thinking how would you like to achieve that at home, until I realized you are American :-D
     
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  4. stonysmith
    stonysmith Well-Known Member Moderator
    Edited.. Fahrenheit <grin>
    Or I'll break out my pressurized steam generator and set it for 70psi <grin>
     
  5. sbhunterca
    sbhunterca Well-Known Member
    Fabien, since I have a John Deere 3140 tractor parked outside, I happened to have some Deere touch-up paint on hand and conducted an experiment.

    I took one of my HO scale doors as a guinea pig, and lightly sprayed it with John Deere's TY26268 Buff Primer Sealer, in a 12 ounce spray can.

    Incidentally, the spray pattern was excellent for a spray bomb... it gave a very satisfactory finish.

    The paint went on well, adhered well, and has cured well. There were no problems whatsoever.

    The Buff Primer is what Deere recommends as the proper undercoat for both the yellow and green finish paints, so you should definitely use a primer of this shade when painting Deere models.

    I'm not going to proceed with the Deere finish paint since I will be painting this part and using it in a model, and don't want to make the paint finish too thick, but once you have the part primed you should have no difficulty using Deere's finish paints.

    A minor caveat... I always dust the first light coat of enamels on plastic. Apply too heavy a layer of wet enamel, and your results could vary- and of course there's always the risk of runs, etc. You don't want to thin the paint too much, unless you're dusting it on so it dries almost instantly.

    A note on my FUD/ FXD cleaning procedure is probably important here too.

    I soak my models in Simple Green cleaner for 30 minutes, lightly scrub them with a soft toothbrush, and rinse thoroughly with warm, clean water. I then dip them in 99% isopropyl alcohol to remove any remaining surface oils, and allow them to air dry thoroughly before painting.

    I hope this helps!

    Steve Hunter


     
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  6. Anyuta3D
    Anyuta3D Well-Known Member
    Dear Fabien / fb292e0,

    Not sure if the internet needs another "how to clean FUD" and "how to paint FUD" thread, but here goes (already written many times, so better have a look on previous threads too):

    People who follow the Miniatures and Scale Models area, already know that we 've send some detailed info about proper FUD / FXD parts cleaning methods and best way to primer, paint and weather realistic way a scale model (also wrote about paint stripping too). Dedicated scale modelers and scale hobbyists also know our scale models already published into major scale model related forums and printed magazines. Having more than 30 years scale modeling experience under belt, I would like to reply to your question, hoping that my answers will also help other scale modelers too. Well, since Frosted Detail plastic material is best available for producing scale model kits and accesory parts, the following directions are for FUD and FXD plastics.

    First things first! Although the 3D printed models do not differ so much from ordinary kits, the plastic material may cause surprises. We all know that FUD and FXD parts are 3D printed with MJM method and later parts removed from the tray and placed into an oven that melts away the wax support material and washed into an a ultrasonic oil bath to remove any remaining wax residues and then a ultrasonic water bath to remove any oil on the model. In case you 'll notice slight traces of oil on the kit parts surface when you got the item, it is absolutely normal. This oil is actually left after the 3D printing process was finished and the kit parts been removed from the printer tray to be washed into an ultrasonic oil bath and later an ultrasonic water bath and might escaped the clean inspection and dry by hand procedure. It can be cleaned easily by washing parts with water and dishwasher soap and clean with an old toothbrush gently.

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    This oil (if any) MUST be removed from plastic parts surface, to result best possible paint results. If the oil remains, you risk a badly applied paint later - no matter if enamel, acrylic etc. IMHO, best method to remove part is by washing with warm water (NEVER apply water hotter than 50º C / 125º F or you'll be really sorry) & dishwasher soap and brush gently with an old soft toothbrush. Keep in mind that items are only 0.3mm to 0.5mm thin and they are very fragile. Therefore, being very carefull while washing the parts is a necessary.

    Also good methods to wash small (or extremely fragile) parts, are the following:

    • By sinking everything into a plastic bowl filled with White Spirit and leave it there for few seconds or a couple of minutes (max) to wash oil traces. In the end the the kit won’t feel greasy anymore and show an almost complete white colour. Never use anything more "aggresive" chemical than White Spirit. Also, AVOID stove cleaning spray, lacquer and acetone nail polish remover products - they clean oil & wax but also dissolve the plastic leading to breakage and failure.
    • By using hydrosonic cleaning machine (IMHO, is the best alternative), filled with water & dishwasher soap and repeat procedure if needed. Meanwhile the water will turn cloudy - that’s the wax.
    For example, feel free to check following building & painting process pictures of our WWII-era helicopter Flettner Fl-282 V21 Kolibri scale model kit found into our Anyuta 3D products catalog:

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    It is most importance that the model parts are properly degreased - otherwise the paint will not stick or able to get painted. Small remainders can be removed with a swab or toothpick. Feel free to have a look into following pictures. Oily parts washed by sinking everything into a 2 litres plastic bowl filled with White Spirit and leave it there for a couple of minutes. Shortly after all kit parts enjoyed their bath into a White Spirit filled bowl, they were washed with liquid soap & warm water, placed on soft paper towels and allowed to dry.

    TO BE CONTINUED...
     
    Last edited: Dec 14, 2017
  7. Anyuta3D
    Anyuta3D Well-Known Member
    ...CONTINUED FROM PREVIOUS MESSAGE

    Experienced scale model builders and figure painters, already know that proper cleaning of surfaces to be painted is absolutely necessary - this is the 1.0.1 lesson on miniatures painting. The dishwasher soap gently brushing or the hydrosonic cleaning are the most plastic-friendly methods, but you need to retry washing many times until oil is completely removed. On the other hand, sinking everything into a petrochemical solution will removed oil in a blink, but you should never try anything more "aggresive" than White Spirit which is a plastic-friendly chemical and already in use into scale modeling hobby and artistic miniatures painting. The reason I prefer sinking everything into a bowl filled with White Spirit, leave it there for a couple of minutes and then place parts on soft paper towels until dry, is that some tiny (really tiny) or extremely fragile FUD-made parts, cannot get easily handled by hands and washed with dishsoap and warm water - not to mention that fragine plastic parts could break during manual washing session. Long story short? The "key factor" for a nice 'n' smooth painting with no surprises, is the proper cleaning and de-greasing of the FUD/FXD parts.

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    After all kit parts washed in White Spirit & water to clean the oil traces, every section of the model has been repeatedly dry fit tested to ensure that all individual parts could be later combined together as an overall built model. When looked OK, each part sprayed over with primer to prepare for paintjob. I personaly use waterborne polymer primer products (dark or light primer depending the final paint later) and later apply LifeColor acrylics products for paint.

    Additionaly, as long as FUD/FXD parts are de-greased the modeler SHOULD apply primer before paint. Experienced modelers already know that nowdays, primer before basic paint layers is a factor that leads to best possible results. We are not into 1970ies or 1980ies era when "primer before painting" was a joke or considered as an expensive & unnecessary luxury. We supposed to be modern era scale modelers, we supposed to get informed by the internet for all the modern gadgets, we supposed to follow scale modeling related online forums and we should all know the fundamentals basic techniques for scale models and miniatures painting.

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    We should all keep in mind that scale models (even the 3D printed) should be painted with scale modeling related products. ONLY! Any other kind of paint for example building walls or car paint (yeah, it might sound stupid but I know some stupid people who already tried it), marker pens or water based paints used by children during their kindergarten education, will not work and cause further problems.

    The scale modeling related paints can be found in three (main) types:

    • Enamel paints - Thinner used in the first "Enamel paints" category, is usually some petrochemical, usualy White Spirit. In some special cases more aggresive thinners can be used like nitrocellulose laquer for example, but the modeler should always be aware that underpaint plastic could get damaged.
    • Acrylic paints - Thinner used in the second "Acrylic paint" category, is usually some water, pure alcohol or kinds of ammonia-based solutions.
    • Artistic oil-based paints - Thinner used in the third "Artistic oil-based paint" category, is usually some "soft" petrochemical, usualy White Spirit water or Turpentine.
    Ofcourse, we all know even if water is used as thinner in acrylic colors category, this does NOT mean that the water can later be used to clean / strip the acrylic paint after it dries! As you understand, after the acrylic paint gets polymerized, the chemical bonds get stronger and it cannot get away. Finally, scale models are weathered (by painting with specific techniques) and a final coat (aka varnish) is applied over. Can be matt, gloss or semi gloss, mainly available as enamel or acrylic. My personal favorite is acrylic and applied with airbrush.

    As a final friendly advice:

    Use scale modeling related paint products ONLY

    If you need more advices, feel free to visit your local scale modeling hobby shop or just Google. Also, feel free to check our scale model products and have a look on building and painting process.

    Regards,
    Anyuta 3D
     
    Last edited: Dec 14, 2017
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  8. patmat2350
    patmat2350 Well-Known Member
    Not mentioned yet in this thread, or ever addressed by Shapeways yet (afaik), is the necessity of post curing. Clean all you want, if the plastic is not fully cured, then it will never accept enamel primers or paints. (It will accept water-based hobby acrylics).

    The SLA process, like FUD/FED (aka MJM), uses UV light to cure the liquid photopolymer. But there's never enough UV exposure in the normal SLA build process to fully cure the resin... so the standard process in SLA is to bath parts in UV after build, to achieve the full cure.

    In MJM, the same can and does happen... you can clean off all the wax and oil, and still enamels just don't cure on the parts (frequently, not always)... due to the uncured resin in the plastic matrix.

    Take the same part and expose it to an hour or so under a 15W UV-A fluorescent bulb, or a few hours out in the sun, and it will now miraculously accept enamels.

    This now my standard practice before painting any FUD/FED parts.
     
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  9. patmat2350
    patmat2350 Well-Known Member
    Another test to confirm this issue:
    Paint an UN-post-cured part with a flat primer (acrylic or urethane, not enamel). It should cure nicely. Then observe for a few days while the uncured resin leaches out of the plastic and stains the paint!

    I didn't notice this until I glued a FUD part onto a brass tube and primed them together... the brass's primer was fine, while the primer on the FUD part appeared to take on an oil stain...
     
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  10. mjncad
    mjncad Member
    Excellent modelling work and write up Anyuta! In case it wasn't mentioned in this thread, 'White Spirit' is the same as 'Mineral Spirits' in the USA.

    I consider Mineral Spirits the least aggressive of my solvent collection, with acetone and lacquer thinner being the most aggressive. My only gripe with mineral spirits is the slight oily film it leaves. My new favorite solvent is naphtha (aka lighter fluid). Has anyone tried this as a solvent on FUD/FXD and SLA resin parts?
     
  11. patmat2350
    patmat2350 Well-Known Member
    Not me... but I have used lacquer thinner... usually very aggressive, will melt many plastics... but seems to have no effect (in the short term at least) on acrylic.

    Now I just use warm soapy water in a small ultrasonic cleaner... I prefer to minimize use of the strong solvents if I can.

    .
     
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  12. Model_Monkey
    Model_Monkey Well-Known Member
    Great tips and great discussion.

    Naphtha may harm the plastic.

    A few more tips based on customer experience:

    "Dawn" and "Fairy" dishwashing detergent in warm water work well, too.

    Do NOT use any thinner containing acetone, acetate, or methyl ethyl ketone (MEK). Acetone will attack acrylic plastic and damage it. Acetate is found in acetone-free nail polish remover. Acetate and MEK can cause a crystalline powder to form on the surface, even after painting, which is an annoyance to remove. The following chemicals may cause crazing, cracking, discoloration, or dissolving of Frosted Detail acrylic plastics: Acetic Acid, Acetate, Acetone, Ammonia, Aromatic Solvents, Benzene, Brake Fluid, Butyl Alcohol, Chlorinated Solvents, Disinfectant, Ethyl Alcohol, Kerosene, Lacquer Thinner, Lestoil® Cleaner, Lysol® Spray, Methyl Ethyl Ketone, Naphtha, Pinesol® Cleaner, Sulfuric Acid, Turpentine, Toluene, White Cap® Cleaner, and Xylene.

    After a good UV treatment, to smooth larger Frosted Detail surfaces, or to get into nooks and crannies that are difficult to reach, careful use of an inexpensive "air eraser" emitting common household baking soda can help smooth surfaces and remove any unwanted "frost" without harming detail. Air erasers, like an airbrush but much cheaper, can be found on Amazon.com. Models by Harbor Freight and Paasche are popular.
     
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  13. What about using isopropyl alcohol for cleaning the parts, or is this no good??
     
  14. Drew92
    Drew92 Member
    So what brand of paint should I use for the frosted extreme?
     
  15. patmat2350
    patmat2350 Well-Known Member
    WhatEVER you like. Just clean and do the UV-post-cure step first.
     
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  16. bonav
    bonav Member
    Don't put it in 150 degree water if your parts have any thin and flexible areas, it makes them weak and brittle
     
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  17. thetoysurgeon
    thetoysurgeon Member
    Has any one used Bulldog adhesion promoter. I use it on urethane plastics and it works good. You still have to wash them well to get any release agent off. I do a Dawn soak and light scrub and then acetone. Will acetone hurt these printed plastics?
     
  18. Model_Monkey
    Model_Monkey Well-Known Member
    Acetone has been shown to melt 3D-printed acrylic plastics (FUD and FXD). Several of my customers who used acetone based on the recommendation of other designers reported that acetone ruined their parts and were very unhappy. Although other designers may disagree, I strongly recommend only using mild water-based liquid detergents like Dawn, Fairy, Vim or Simple Green to clean parts.

    A designer on Shapeways named Dave Yale tested acetone on Frosted Detail plastic. After 2 hours of exposure, a model table looked like this (Dave Yale's photos):

    Affect of acetone ona model Dave Yale photo fudtl-01.jpg

    fudtl-flex01.jpg

    Dave reported the plastic "was very pliable, and when I flexed the top a little the legs on one side came apart like butter- there was no strength".

    My customers have reported problems with acetone, acetate, heptane (sold as "Bestine"), isopropyl alcohol and methyl ethyl ketone. Customers reported that prolonged exposure to acetone, acetate, heptane and isopropyl alcohol damaged parts.

    A customer using methyl ethyl ketone (MEK) as a thinner for airbrushing reported that a powdery residue later developed on the painted part that was a nuisance to remove. Here's what his part, a model ship superstructure, looked like after painting, before and after the powder developed several days later:

    Soon after painting:
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    Several days later:
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    I have never had any problem cleaning parts using Dawn or Simple green and painting using acrylic hobby paints with water as the thinner. No customer of mine has ever reported any problems with Dawn, Fairy, Vim or Simple Green.

    Echoing comments and findings by Pat Matthews in posts above, customers have reported problems using enamel paints if the customer did not post-cure their parts. Post-curing is simply exposing the parts to sunlight or placing them under a UV lamp for several hours to ensure all the acrylic resin has fully chemically hardened. If any microscopic bits of resin remain in their liquid state, the liquid resin can react with enamel paints preventing the enamel paint from hardening. Once the parts have been post-cured, customers report good success with enamel hobby paints. Still, as Stony Smith has said above, I recommend acrylic paint for acrylic plastic to avoid any possibility of trouble.

    Hope all this helps.
     
    Last edited: Mar 16, 2018
  19. Anyuta3D
    Anyuta3D Well-Known Member
    @ Model_Monkey,

    Well said and I totally agree with you.

    Unfortunatelly, some sellers "advice" acetone, acetate while they have NEVER touched or built a scale model with their bare hands. Even a rookie scale modeler & hobbyist is aware that acetone attacks plastic and make it look like gum. I was surprised how it is possible buyers who are willing to pay hundreds for FUD or FXD parts, are willing to listen to sellers with zero experience on scale modeling. I also read about people proposing MEK! Really? MEK? Are they crazy? What's next to their "let's risk our own health" experiment list? Depleted uranium maybe?

    If you notice few messages before (approx one year ago on Feb 3 2017 - click HERE and HERE) I wrote a complete and short guide HOW to clean FUD or FXD parts, WHAT to use for priming and HOW to paint. What I wrote is a short guide which includes more than 30 years experience on scale model building hobby. People followed my words are now happy - people who did not took the time to read and follow simple advices, will have to order parts again and possibly make same mistakes again. Well, since some people do not give proper attention on instructions by professionals and prefer to listen what amateurs say, I guess they'll need to learn hard way and damaging their FUD or FXD parts is only the beginning.

    Regards,
    Anyuta 3D
     
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  20. Model_Monkey
    Model_Monkey Well-Known Member
    Yes, indeed, Anyuta! Experience makes for good advice. Your experience and advice have been proven to be very helpful. Thanks!