**UPDATE: NOW LIVE!! **First To Try & Beta Products**

@bdickason

Hi I have this one http://shpws.me/uDmR it gives me 100% production success rate on Polished Silver , Raw Silver , Raw Brass , Raw Bronze ?!

So how this family :

"For example, we have a 'Finished Cast Metals' family that includes the following materials:
18k Gold, Gold Plated Brass, 14k White Gold, 14K Gold, Polished Brass, Platinum, 14k Rose Gold, Polished Bronze, and Premium Silver"

apply ?!

How Polished Bronze it is different so much from Polished silver ?!

Struggled a lot with rejected models and made me sometimes very frustrated.
But recently I've learned that it's more frustrating when a customer receives a misprinted item and the 3d printing provider denies any responsibility (it's printed as in the 3d file and if there are things which can't be printed then it's your fault).
So far SW cares that they can deliver what the customer sees on the 3d print preview.

Woody64

Hi Shapies, I was wondering whether upcoming material renders soon to be launched are the ones that starts to appear in my shop as small previews? At the time being they are very small and unable to enlarge so it's difficult to tell what the will end up look like. I just can't help notice that the ones that starts to appear don't look very photo realistic. It seems they are made without any use of reflection maps or any special light settings and/or hdri maps that is required to have precious metals look like precious metals. If they are really the ones I'd prefer to do my own renders. Therefore it would be really cool if you could post some real size 625x465 px renders of each material of any jewelry product so we shop owners can determine whether we would want to spend time preparing our own renders or if the renders soon to be provided by Shapeways are actually cool enough

Cheers,

Mike

You have to follow the link "Material Render Pose"on the right side (I also didn't catch it ... )

*This feature is not yet visible to shoppers. Save changes to see a preview of what your page will look like here.

But as said somewhere, designers tend to order groups to optimize testing, and then offer other things as they make sense for the customer. Example: you design A, B, C & D, and other those in a sprue. Customers want multiple of each, so in reality you have a private A+B+C+D and four items, 10*A, 4*B, 7*C and 5*D (whatever makes natural group for each) for sale showing "first to try". The original example was about something like testing A+B+C+D and then selling A+B, A+C, A+D.

Hi Shapies,

Suddenly it strikes me after reading the post by HenrikRydberg, that shoppers with multiple ring sizes might have an issue. Therefor could you please confirm this...

I have a shop primary offering rings. I printed all of these... most of them in Premium Silver. However since I'm offering multiple ring sizes I obviously only printed one ring size for a photo shoot and as a test print. But the rest of the ring sizes are actually different models offered for private sales and then linked up to the public sales model.

Please take a look at my shop and confirm whether I would have a problem with 'first to try' on all of my linked products that are same model but uploaded in a different size and not 3D printed as only the public for sale is printed.

https://www.shapeways.com/shops/iba

I hope this is not causing a lot of 'first to try' :-/

Cheers,

Mike

@Inspired_By_Architecture we can`t see it , only you can.

I have tested and looks "First to try" got switched by Material and Material Family , and does not apply to all : Example : Pendant printed in Polished Silver has : Polished Silver listed as PRODUCT and other materials "First to Try".

So the "You must purchase all to get out of First to Try" rule got dropped in favor of "First to Try" by material/Material Family and product with 100% will get a badge PRODUCT.

Looks like our voice it heard and things really change.

So easy answer to you : What you have printed in Premium Silver will activate at finished product on that material family now ... we must see how families get listed.

Family part it is unclear like : Having Polished Silver dropped from Precious Metals ?! And have Polished Brass in there ?! There it is clearly need to be listed by way of production : Something cast , goes WAX , CAST , POLISH -> Natural it is to be valid for all CAST Material in one FAMILY , not by finishes and stuff , including WAX active ,. RAW active , Polished active -> there are the steps of production identical , same process involved.

Different Sizes
Different sizes will be for sure a problem, since it can't be determined which models are connected.

The same problem I have with different items having only different text.

And due to minimal thickness, ... and a lot of other designer rules different sizes can lead to "not printable" 3d meshes.

Interface enhancements
At least one point to get rid of that would be scaling (with only increasing factors) when we ensure that the smallest item is printable (up to the maximal bounding box for the material). But that needs an extra step from the SW's interface side.

For text I don't have an idea but that would result in some automatic cocreator function like adding text to an item on a specific position.

Status graph

Beta => First Trial => Product => Design Updated

A minimal design update is a permanent topic in my case (based on some user input or other criteria). Both can happen:it's minimal without any significant change to the printing but as often I have wall thickness topics ...

Beta (User sets to ) First Trial
Beta (new upload) Beta
Beta (printed ok) Beta
Beta (printed nok) Beta
Beta (User sets to, and this version printed ok) Product
First Trial (printed ok) Product
First Trial (new upload) Beta
First Trial (printed nok) Beta
First Trial (user sets to) Beta
Product (printed nok less then x%) Beta
Product (new upload) Updated
Product (printed ok) Product
Product (user sets to) Beta
Updated (printed ok) Product
Updated (printed nok) Beta
Updated (user sets to) Beta

That's a quick status graph (not completely clean but from my point of view but please show yours to discuss that more deeply.
Also the names should be discussed to have the best choice. To my point of view "First Trial" is not the best choice.

Woody64

P.S.: is there an extra form for the "First Trial" discussion?

I'm not concerned about the one specific model offered for sale as public. I'm concerned about the same models offered for sale as private models. Therefor I asked Shapeways or any other who know 100% how this is going to apply to take a look at my shop. My private models are visible to ANYONE hwo actually visits my shop as the URL's are linked with the public models.

Example:
My IBA11 Butterfly ring is offered for public sale as US size 7 (this you can tell by the title on the secific model page you are visiting). This model is printed in Premium silver and raw brass for the US SIZE 7 ring. However, I'm also offering for sale the size 6, 6.5, 7.5, 8 and 8.5. These models are offered for private sales but the corresponding URL's are linked to the public model of the US7 size which I have as default. Therefore if you go to the IBA11 ring from the main page of my shop you will be able to visit all other ring sizes!!

NOW... the big $1.000.000 question:
As only the US SUZE 7 ring has been printed in Premium Silver and Raw brass and NOT the size 6, 6.5, 7.5, 8 and 8.5 which are ALL the exact same model BUT uploaded to Shapeways as a new model in order to offer different ring sizes.... will all of these sizes the have the 'FIRST TO TRY' label as these models have not exactly been printed??? If this this 'first to try' label is applied automtically I don't see how Shapeways can avoid all other models to be affected with this label...

But if that is the case it will kill my shop and all other shops with different ring sizes. Obviously you need to print your model when offering it for sale that's fair. But if you offer a design in 6 sizes nobody will be able to print all 6 sizes in all materials required to get rid of the 'first to try' label!!!! And NOBODY will buy a product with 'first to try'.

So I somebody could please tell me if the first to try' label will affect those ring sizes which are same models of a successfully printed model but have not exactly been printed themselves.

https://www.shapeways.com/shops/iba

Cheers,

Mike

I have taken a look at your shop to see what you are meaning with "linked".
You are using the tool to add some link in the description of the item.

Since that's only html I think that it doesn't affect any other sizes in the ways you intend (printed in one size => product for all sizes).
Since you don't have tested the smallest size there can be still problems in the sizes 6 and 6.5.

... only assumptions.

As mentioned above that would only work with some sizing parameter for a model (eliminating the need for different models in our shops)

Woody64

I guess it must be an Exception Flag for rings ??? With condition to be same scaled model from smallest size ?! Like from Size8 up ... other option it is Shapeways to implement the autoscale function for Rings ? Aka User upload file , add the size of the ring : 18.14-18.20 and Shapeways software to get it to be other sizes 19 ...

Rings really are a "problem" , and a auto-scale function can clean it like 80% some "special" cases needs ring redesign.

Still scratching my head , but yeah ... scale thing will be awesome for sculptures too as long they are passing the "Thickness check" we can have auto-scaled sculptures /miniatures at the request of the client.

It can be a solution , not the greatest but a middle one and not so hard for a programmer to code.

In my opinion:

1. The new Renders are good;

2. 'First to try' is a terrible idea. Include the information in a more neutral way, if you must, but this wording is a no-no.

3. SW staff please try to make your posts shorter and more to the point: your audience is international and brevity and clarity should be important.

The naming in this instance is not so clear on our end, sorry

Premium silver and polished brass share the same production process and are polished by hand after lost wax casting. Polished silver is also made with lost wax casting, but is polished in a tumbler afterwards. Since they are polished using different processes, a model that may be ok with one polishing method may not be in another.

From the material page of Polished Silver : "Polished silver is lightly hand polished to achieve a smooth finish but still can have some surface texture."

RAW SILVER it is Mechanical Poloshed "Raw silver is mechanically polished so may show print lines and have a rougher surface texture" and can crack some designs.

Here https://www.shapeways.com/materials/silver?li=nav use reading glasses. So has identical process "by hand".

As a few people have mentioned, scaling and sizes are not something that we have a good way of handling today on Shapeways.

Today when you upload a file, it is a completely unique geometry to our system-- we have no way to tell if the small amount of text you added will be printable or not, or if it is simply a bigger or smaller version of an existing model that we have. We are working on better ways to understand that you have a product for sale that is a ring, and model a, b, c and d are all versions of that ring in different sizes.

We are also looking into how you can scale a model on our site, and in general a better understanding of what changes will have no impact on the printability of a model and will incorporate those into the print success rate once we are confident in them.

Sorry it is Sunday morning, my reading glasses are in another room

My understanding of these processes is what I mentioned above, but I've raised the question as to why premium & polished silver don't share a print success rate and will let you know once I have an answer.

I always told my kids: be careful when you use the word "never".

At the risk of starting a flame war, I think using the adjective NObody here is overly harsh. Having FTT on a model is not automatically the same as "not available for purchase". For one thing.. commissioned or requested items will "always" sell regardless of the FTT moniker. And, over 3/4 of my shop has sold before - those models would not have the FTT.

I'm sure that Auguste Rodin had no problems selling the first version of the "The Thinker" - it was a commissioned project. He went on from there to make multiple copies in multiple sizes. And, Rodin received the commission based upon his body of work - they didn't hire someone off the street - he had a reputation.

My suggestion is that we collaborate on a positive solution to the core issue: Models by inexperienced designers that are other than what they are represented to be. How does an inexperienced buyer know what they are going to receive? How much (lost) labor must Shapeways expend producing models only to have to completely refund the purchaser's money?

Hi StonySmith,

Believe me, I would really like to be optimistic in this case and hope people will not pay too much attention to the 'first to try' label and about you being right about the never say never BUT, I'd really be surprised if somebody is going to pay $800 for a ring in Platinium saying 'first to try' !!! It's already a huge challenge to have people buy products like rings in the shop because the can't try it on their own hand. And If they are studying the material characteristics in advance and pay attention to the metal shrinkage percentage... then they'd also be in doubt whether the ring size will actually fit.More obstacles won't exactly do any good in order to get a shop up and going.

Mike

For the majority the BETA label is a good thing. I would strongly recommend to have this status always at the beginning as default.

All shop owner are handling their products and are setting materials and other items. Putting it from BETA to "First to try" would not be a challenge.

Still believe "First to Try" has to be discussed (I always had a similar text added to my items - Testing) but my items are in the very low price range.

At the end here we are in one of the most important discussions: how can 3d printing work for the mass and people wanting to make business with it. Here we are far away from working business cases.

Still wondering that updating an item makes so less troubles to the rest of the designers here. For me it would be a major issue since nearly all items got an update after beeing printed the first time. The need for that (in the past) can be so simple like getting a better render ....

Woody64