**UPDATE: NOW LIVE!! **First To Try & Beta Products**

Hi all,

One clarification to something Inspired_By_Architecture and numarul7 have mentioned:
We have recently made a change to the 'Success Rate' of a model (which we use to determine First to Try) so that printing in a material that shares similar guidelines (we call them Guideline Families) will count as a successful print in related material that shares the same process.

For example, we have a 'Finished Cast Metals' family that includes the following materials:
18k Gold, Gold Plated Brass, 14k White Gold, 14K Gold, Polished Brass, Platinum, 14k Rose Gold, Polished Bronze, and Premium Silver

If you print successfully in one of these materials, it will count as a successful print in all of the others. In this way, you could order a test print in Premium Silver and then sell in Platinum with no problem

Similarly, we also take into account 'parent' materials.

For example, to manufacture a model in Red Strong & Flexible Polished, we first have to make it in White Strong & Flexible, then polish/dye it. Thus, was consider White Strong & Flexible a 'parent' of Red Strong & Flexible Polished. If you were to successfully print a model in RSFP, you would gain a successful print in WSF as well.

(Note: Because RSFP includes more steps than WSF, a rejection in RSFP will NOT count against your WSF success rate.)

I realize that these 'Guideline Families' aren't documented well yet on the Model Edit page. We are still working to document and explain them publicly through the user interface, but we wanted to make these changes ASAP as they immediately led to a reduction in models we reject

I think customers really don't go to understand it.

Every week I've receiving messages from customers asking me how much models he's buying, or if he's acquiring the file or the model.

Many times the customer buy the model in default material (usually WSF), and when the model is arrived, he send me a message asking about the material that he saw in a friend's blog (usually FUD).

As more complicated was the display of the model, more new customers gonna be frightened to order.

Customers aren't dumb, but they aren't aware of the information in the display.

It isn't the "first to fail" flag (I'm sure somebody wanted to put a flag of "order at your own risk") is the small and too many messages on the page which will make the customers to mistrust.

Thanks bdickason

WELL, that's a different story. I'm happy to hear that if you have successfully printed a model in premium silver it will also count as a successful print in the rest of the precious materials Then I'm not so scared about the 'first try'.

However I do think you should clarify the family relation you are talking about so no-one will be in any doubt:

So I suggest you implement a 'succes-rate-family' link under the materials menu for shop owners telling something like:

- If you successfully printed premium silver that will also count for 14K Gold, 14K White Gold, 14K Rose Golde and Platinium
- If you successfully printed raw brass you will successfully print raw bronze
- if you successfully printed stainless steel you will successfully print matte bronze steel, polished bronze steel, matte black steel ......and so on.

This will make an easy overview for shop owners for how to make the 'first try' labels disappear as the lowest possible cost.

Thanks for clarifying,

Mike

Yes thanks bdickason, we can live with that almost got me there hehe.

As for rejections a lot of the time I see models that have interlocking or enclosed parts and set for sale in metals or ceramic, does that lead to a lot of rejections ? I'm sure a tool to detect such things can't be that hard to create.

Also it may be wise to have some people curating the models for easy to detect mistakes by designers and warn them something might not be possible to recreate or that a render or picture is misleading customers. They won't get to catch everything but at leats the products that are visible and people are likely to buy, I browse the site max one or two hours per day and see a lot of things that are risky and often warn fellow designers. If Shapeways would do this actively there would be a lot less rejections I think.

Products that haven't ever been printed before should only be visible in the shop or link shared by the shop owner, not in the model sections or search.
I know you want to let designers push the limits but they sould do that with their own customers not Shapeways, once a product is printed in one of the materials it will be visible everywhere.
***edit*** so beta feature as default***

These are just suggestions, cooling down now and not afraid anymore Thanks again

@kzasada: It is nice to learn that you are working on a way to combine multiple models that will maintain the print history.
For the rest, I don't understand it.

Starting with your remark that 3rd-party customers do not really understand a lot of 3D printing, or are disappointed.
- Wouldn't be wise to stop thinking like a 3D designer on this point? But start thinking as a webshop? That means why would you increase the amount of 3D specific information to these group of customers? I often mentioned that customers do not understand and do not care about the 3D printing. If you order something in a webshop, do you care about how the product is made, where its production limitations are, or how difficult logistics can be? Of course not. You just want to get your ordered model. So PLEASE make the SW-shop more easy. Forget the 'First To Try' thing. Even the designers do not really understand it, and -as far as I see here- no single designer wants this. It will scare customers.
And please start working on multiple languages here.

-If customers are disappointed about the appearance of the received product, it could have several reasons:

1. The client never saw an accurate photo of the product, and notes that the 3D printed model is not near to the render (many many designers only have renderings that show a lot of fine details, that will never be visible in the print). SW please encourage designers to add photos to their products. Yes, once you have to buy your model, but isn't that something that any designer should want in the first place? Because of the high price and low sales volumes, it won't be feasible to buy all sorts of variants of a single model. So it is good to see that SW is working on the combining multiple models 'tool'. By adding better renders, I do hope these renders look more like the real life model. Then these renders will not look as nice as they are today. If SW is working on better looking renders, then please sop this action. The disappointment level of the end customers will increase.
Adding the 'Try To Print' message for models that where according SW not printed before will not avoid this problem. Because, once a model was printed, the renders do not change, and photos do not automatically appear on the product page. A first print does not mean that the product actually looks nice.

2. The printed object was orientated differently then the shown example. In some materials (WSF, FUD) the outcome of a 'wrongly' orientated model is very different. I know SW wants to joggle around with orientations for cost reasons. But on the other hand, if you really receive many complaints maybe rethink your process.

3.The printed model is broken or dirty. We noticed that especailly in the busy time December, quite a number of our customers received broken parts. We also noticed that models are cleaned differently. SW should really work on avoiding these mistakes and work on making more uniform product quality. It is unfortunate that SW service is not always responding to complaints.

4. The printed FUD models are difficult to paint. Here I would like to see that in SW there is a big overview on how to clean and how to paint models. We have added all this information on our website, and I think it should be at SW's to (not in a forum, but on a dedicated page).

-The big problem called rejections.
Probably the biggest frustration is the rejection procedure. Now it appears to me that SW likes to get clean hands here by adding 'Try To Print', a.k.a. 'Don't blame us' feature.
As you see, no designer asks for this and no designer sees benefits from this.
'First To Try' does not explain anything to potential customers. All above mentioned problems are not related to a first try. It has to do about bad communication. This means ADD PHOTOS of your products.
The rejection process of SW has been discussed since ever, and will certainly not stop with this 'Try To Print' label.

Regards,
Maurice
RAILNSCALE

Now I get it :

1)

A) If something it is printed in RAW BRASS will be enabling by default "Raw Brass, Raw Silver , Polished Brass, Polished Silver , Premium Silver , Gold , Platinum" due the fact that are made by : Printing WAX then CASTING THE WAX , we call this "CAST family"

B) If a model it is printed in white WSF it will enable WSF Black , WSF all polished colors

C) FUD etc got separate family.


2)

A) "First to try" it is a good option , my first client bought one of my product without having a print on it , was a modified version of a print aka "First to try" , and guess what it is needed!

B) Asking to everybody having a picture of a product it is easy to say : When you live in a country with a salary of 3.000 Euro/ 2000 $ , I invite you to live in Romania with a salary of 300 euro / Expenses are 100 euro / food it is 200 euro.

And don`t tell me I have no right to show the world my talent and get a better life ? Even staring something that can give me in long run a decent life that you call living!

3)

A) The 3D render can change to be rendered in the DEFAULT MATERIAL : If someone selected "SIlver" the 3D render (that one you can pan) must be rendered in default material.


I hope Shapeways understand that not all Shapeways designer have a good life , and can afford some things , it is rather a sacrifice a risk to make a dream alive. I hope Shapeways don`t kill the hope and dream.

Money does not equal talent , talent makes more money over time. And it is hard work in the end not something for "free".

So if you argue "I have PHOTOS and low clients due others" , BE MORE CREATIVE , BE COMPETITIVE , SELL YOUR STUFF and TAKE THE BLAME ON YOU.

I could use some HARSH language , but I have to much respect for Shapeways workers and Shapeway staff , that helps me make my dream alive.

Almost correct I think - white WSF polished can/should enable all other flavours of SF including unpolished, but due to the additional constraints of the polishing process, printing something in unpolished WSF cannot enable anything except the also unpolished black.

I remain unconvinced - if anything this should be left to the designer (which would make it basically the same as "Beta"). I believe it would be more helpful if shapeways
A) enforced a policy requiring photorealistic renders to be clearly marked as such
B) added an informative text somewhere in the checkout process (and be it only for new customers or those without own models) explaining how 3d printing is a bit special regarding reproducibility, and delineating what happens in the case of a "rejection". (contacting the designer, getting the money back from store credit)

I strongly believe that shapeways dug that hole for themselves by overzealous marketing, including featuring some models with only a rendered picture available where it is immediately obvious to experienced designers - but not casual customers - that the state shown would barely be achievable through hours of careful sanding, polishing and/or painting. And also not least by changing design rules on the fly, causing sudden rejections of previously successful models. Putting the blame on the designers by putting a big warning on new models is only going to hurt third-party sales - it is bad enough when somebody new to 3d printing, or perhaps completely disinterested in the manufacturing process, happens to hit an unprintable model, but having
many models clearly marked with "looks nice but may not exist" will probably make those people leave the site for good after a quick look around.

There is an issue with this family of materials. We work in FUD and WSF materials mainly. Within the group B and group C materials the material guidelines are different. Polished materials require more wall thickness for example. FUD and their family materials FD and other detail materials have quite different design requirements. So for these families it does not work like that.

You clearly work with different materials with a very different price tag then we do. We have no experience in metals, so we will not comment on this. We make scale models. And the main issue with these tiny scale models is that they tend to be difficult to print and clean. Another thing is that most scale models have to be painted in order to get the desired result. So our customers should be able to clean it and to paint it.
From our perspective selling scale models is not really a way of making money. On the other hand we do not want to loose money either. This means that our invest budget is limited too. I think this is valid for all designers.
Since we do not offer models that are not printed by us, we do limit ourselves already. We could easily design a lot more different models and try selling them. But we don't. The main reason is that we want to be a reliable partner. This is why the rejections policy and also the 'First To Try' feature is not in our interest.

So why do photos make sense for scale models?
Many designers at SW show many brilliant designs with beautiful renders that cannot be printed with the level of detail as shown in the renders. Unfortunately the minimum detail size as stated by SW is not always visible in the end product. Also quite a few designers seem to forget that it is not easy to paint small scale models that are printed as a single piece. We therefore always try to design our models in such way that they provide the best result in reality.

It is good that many of our customers are pretty selective before they purchase anything. However others do pay less attention or did not understand the limitations and buy models that later on do not fullfill their expectations. And it would be harmful if customers become disappointed by 3D printing. That is in nobodies interest.

Regards,
Maurice
RAILNSCALE

@Mitchell

It is good that you are looking into a better way of cleaning FUD. The oil is really a true battle for modellers. In time it actually turns an unpainted model yellow.
As you mentioned it would be absolutely no problem if FUD would come white in future. Actually telling the world that FUD is translucent is a bit of a joke. It only is (partially) due to the grease.

Regards,
Maurice
RAILNSCALE

And the grease (wax) turns in a sickly yellowish shade very soon, that makes FUD useless for canopy or train glasses.

@railNscale

I agree that scale models look different from "painting" and product as shipped from Shapeways and things tend to crack in the package compared to metals.

So photos with painted , and unpainted products must be there like an example of finished product painted so client to have a clue.

And I agree that it is better to have a white material that it is CLEAN and easy PAINTABLE , rather having to ship to client something with oil and client having only experience of painting -> aka kids age 12 ? That does not have the right to use solvents due health risk! Or ASTHMA!

The grease/wax/oil cannot change the transparency of the bulk material, so if FUD is somewhat transparent with the stuff still on, this must be due to it filling microscopic bumps and scratches that would otherwise scatter the light. So it should be possible to restore the transparency by coating the cleaned model with some other clear, non-aging substance that does not attack the acrylic. There is bound to be something about this hidden somewhere in the Post Processing Techniques forum (guess cleaning with dishwashing liquid and thinly coating with clear acrylic paint might work).

@Mitchell: I started a new thread here for discussing FUD

@railNscale: I realize that I'm very much in a niche environment, but I have a set of patrons that actually COMPETE to see who can be "First To Try" my models. <GRIN> It's a bit of a badge of honor with them to be the first to buy.

I had a thought on this subject and wanted to toss it out here for discussion: What if, in addition to "First To Try" (which does mean "Never Printed Before")... what if we had a Overall Designer Success Ratio? On Ebay, there is a Seller and a Buyer Ranking. Note: I am not proposing a rating based upon opinion, but rather upon hard facts.

I am not bragging, but I can (and often do) build models that are successful on the first print. My established customers understand what they are buying and can generally trust that some new item I design is going to work, even though I have never bought the item myself. That has come only from what is now five years of trial and error. The good news is that it has been many more successful trials than errors. (I will fully admit, there have been some whoppers of failure however. If you upload a model designed in millimeters and manage to pick "inches", you end up with this price point)

What if ... the aggregate "Success Ratio" across all models/materials a designer is offering for sale was presented next the "First To Try" button - establishing a Rating of the designer's overall success, thereby expressing the general amount of confidence that a (new) buyer can have that a FTT model will work, versus some designer that (no offense meant) is just starting out?

The "success ratio" is not a bad idea, but I'd want it _instead of_ the first to try button.

Unlike the FUD designers who've contributed to this topic, my target market will be people who've never heard of consumer-level 3D printing before. Traditionally they've purchased hand-made jewelry. The attractiveness of 3D printing comes from the choices I can offer: choice of materials, choice of ring size, choice of design. "First to Try" will scare them off.

Frankly, this change disheartens me. I've spent hundreds on raw brass/bronze test prints in order to take photos for the shop. So far, I've made less than $30 in sales. There's no way I can afford to do prints in silver. My next step was to consider spending money on marketing (FB promotions and the like).

If "First to Try" gets placed next to the materials I think might be otherwise most attractive to the customers, I might as well forget about marketing and close up the shop.

While there seems to be a lot of bashing about this new "First toTry" feature - including from me regarding the orientation issue - I do for the most part applaud Shapeways for implementing this. I think the renders will actually increase sales because they give a customer an "idea" of what it will look like. This helps we shop owners because it doesn't become necessary to buy as many models to take pictures of. And for any of the complainers out there who HAVE purchased a lot of models in different materials you are still at an advantage because you can still show ACTUAL prints which will always outdo renders any day.

I don't think that being 'the first to try' will put off as many customers as it will increase others to make the purchase. Under the present system we might have one model that we purchased along with the grey render and that's it. I just can't see that the old system is better than the new. Also, it's not like the customer is going to lose money if the material they choose is unprintable; they simply end up a little disappointed - but at least there won't be a barrage of complaints because now the customer has been WARNED the print may not work. For some this could be a plus, because they can brag to their friends that they are "the only person in the world to have one of these" if they are the 'first to try'.

So, while I'm all for letting Shapeways know what we think they may be doing wrong I think they don't get fair credit for all that they are trying to accomplish.

And at least they LISTEN. How many "faceless corporations" have you become pissed off at over the years because you "can't talk to a real human" or "no-one listens to me!"

One can see how hard this problem is just by reading through the contradicting suggestions & opinions in this thread. After months and months of work I believe we have a solution with renders + beta + first to print. We really needed to deliver multiple stabs at once to kill this three headed beast that is "keeping freedom of creativity, setting expectations (with rejections) while growing sales"

Learning from our previous releases, we wanted to familiarise you on the upcoming changes, before they happen. The questions and concerns that you've voiced here is what's supposed to be happening—so thank you. Sorry for lacking the info on Guideline Families. (You've seen us change the way we rollout changes. You bet we'll continue to learn from this too.)

Another thing I want to make 100% clear: when you order your own products, you're the "first to try", and so the product will graduate (in all it's Guideline Family materials) if printability is there.. So if you're a shop owner who orders (and photographs) your products, shoppers won't see "first to try" options in your shop. But when the creativity strikes and you do experimental products or add new materials, First to try kicks in—and rightly so.

Like in railNscale's shop ( https://www.shapeways.com/shops/rail-n-scale ) you see carefully painted products and in amazing sceneries, plus all the parts you get when you order. Looking at the pictures it's clear what one gets and the material selector follows suit. It's actually really hard to find First to try option in this shop. (It happens in sets and we'll have another solution for that later) (screenshot attached)

In FabMeJewelry's shop ( https://www.shapeways.com/shops/FabMe ) you see amazing shiny jewelry worn by models and carefully composed for photos. They also provide cheaper plastic versions of many, but you don't really see photos of these. Shoppers are turned to the high value jewelry, where there's maybe better markups. However if a customer want's to go with a cheaper secondary option, they have the opportunity to do so. (screenshot attached)


What I really wanted to talk to you about, was why we went with "First to try".

1. Communicating intent and expectations, instead of technology.
I'm with you, that shoppers don't care about 3D printing and talking about a manufacturing methods will only confuse them. That's why we didn't go with "First to 3D print". The product page doesn't talk anything about manufacturing methods. If you think it brings value to your shoppers, you'll have the freedom to do so.

2. Putting a positive label on the experimental option, except highlighting our default expectations.
Imagine a store that has two blenders. The first blender has a label "This works". Umm... so then does the second one work? To go around this kind of doubt, we wanted to put a positive connotation on the experimental option instead of highlighting the option that works as we expect. Because when we buy something, the default expectation is that it works.

With "first" (get it first, be first, you're first! ...) we wanted to latch on a shopping behavior familiar from pre-ordering. We see "the all new", "world premier", "first release" in all service and product categories. They all aim, and successfully put a positive light on a thing that we can't get outside validation yet.

3. Your skill and reputation set the stage.
The consistency we see in railNscale's and FabMeJewelry's shops make every product in the shop seem high quality and trusting on a product is easy. In fact, it'd be an honor to be first to get one of those. Think of books. It's easy for us to pre-order the newest Harry Potter book, because we trust the book series. Remember how people queued over night to book stores just to get their book first? The book might've been a disappointment, but hey... they were first to get it.

Reputation in your niche sets the stage also. I've pre-ordered books from first time authors because I know them from a professional circles and trust that what they write will be worth while. Even when it turned out not be world-class writing, I've been happy to have supported them regardless. Other times the words on a "cover jacket" have been convincing enough for me to take the jump.

So if you know your shit or are big in a niche, all the reputation and know-how you have there will follow you to the product. Being first becomes exclusivity for your audience.

4. Setting the expectation is important and the make-or-break factor for us all of our success.
We believe in creative freedom and want to open as many doors to technology as possible. That's why we don't require you to buy your own products before offering them for sale. We also would hate to make you wait for us to validate your creation before the world would see it. Still, we need to set the stage for realities: we only know how product will turn out when it's made.

Anything we purchase, we expect to work. Events that break from this expectation are negative. However, when I've chosen to be a first to follow an uncharted path and then learn that I have to wait for a fix because "the world hasn't tried this before and now we know better. Let's fix it!" it's easy for me to understand and adjust to the situation. After all...

5. You get exclusivity from being First to try.
You'll get access to specific comment area, you get highlighted and your profile extends to show the you're a person who's first to try and beta supporter. All positive stamps to make it worth while for you.

6. Sweet renders offset the uncertainty of "being first".
It was paramount for us to launch Material Renders hand in hand with First to try and beta products. We understand that the added communication will create doubt, and we want to balance the uncertainty with beautiful pictures of your products.

--------

Behind all of these efforts, is of course the aim of increasing sales for every Shop Owner. We believe that healthy long term growth comes from trust; when shoppers understand what they're paying for and getting into. We want your customers to come back, connect with you, give feedback, post photos, trust and become part of your community. We want to provide tools that work for all the different niches and shop owners. And I believe the tools adapt well to all the different ways you run your shops, delivering positive incentives for people to become part of what you do.

Sorry that this got long (again)

From my other topic, which was I asked to move here:

Although I expressed that wish, the reality of my market means that it won't happen. I fulfilled an order for one of my rings, asked (via Shapeways messaging feature) for the customer to send me a photo... and heard nothing.

There are many different markets for the many shops on Shapeways. Some, like those of the model builders, appear to thrive on being first and are enthusiastic about participating in Betas. I think the market for my product (Wiccan/pagan jewelry) is very conservative in its purchasing habits; traditionally it's a group that has less disposable income, and is therefore careful about spending money. Offering Beta purchases would be a waste of my time for my market; no one will try it.

For such a market, anything that's visually confusing or appears to be a warning will probably discourage a purchase. That's why I sound so negative in my reaction to "First to Try" icon and the multitude of uncaptioned renders.

Of course, I could be wrong. I'd be delighted to be wrong. If I am, I will fulsomely apologize and bow three times in your general direction. Here's hoping that I do lots of bowing!