Serious Customer Service Issue

cm: 8.66 w x 6.4 d x 1.46 h
in: 3.4 w x 2.5 d x 0.6 h

Yes but I think that has to do with the fact that the surface is relatively flat, and the polygons in your preview look smaller than the layer surfaces.

Just saying, from my experience with printing both high an low polygon models. Stepping (sometimes) happens on both, just not as much in different print runs.

Does the bracelet have the same stepping on the other side?
Same question for the planes, is the bottom as bad as the top?

I don't follow? All major surface on that were probably oriented vertically? So only the front and back of the plane might show stepping but on small surfaces this is less clear.
Looking at the image is see slight horizontal striation on the fuselage which are the print lines?

Anyway, Shapeways can only dictate so much, same goes for quality control. But I agree something must be done here, either in communication or in quality control.

Good morning everyone. Hold up a minute, we're just waking up and getting started over here. I'll see if I can find some answers for everyone!

Sorry I missed that, I was going from your 5th post, 1st image.
And thought it might be part of a larger lattice with more planes.

And I misjudged the scale (not into model planes, so no idea about scale)

In this case, smaller triangles might help. But only so much.

Anyway, if you have not done so please raise the issue in Uservoice or vote on it, if you have not yet.

https://feedback.shapeways.com/forums/111989-shapeways-feedba ck

Anyway, I'm off my game, I'm being slowly cooked by the first real summers day, so I'll sign off now

Cheers and good luck!

Stijn

Ken,

Agreed about standards of service, and we shall see, I'm waiting on a coupon for a 'duff' purple S&F model myself .

Anyhow, let's see what we can do to get your aircraft flying true again - like I said, I'm up for putting my money where my mouth is and using my methods to find out.

@Virtox, yes, the stepping is on the other side and is slightly more pronounced, which I assume is due to the surface being downside in the print tray and aquiring the customary 'sag'.

Let's put it this way... Shapeways customer service has never let me down before. I don't expect they will here either.

But yes, please reconsider this decision.

These two prints, of identical models in identical materials, are not the same quality. Neither is the difference inherent in the printing process, nor accurately described in the WSF data page under "worst case" print lines.

Wow... from a painter's point of view, the surface is a nightmare.

( But I'm wondering why Kampfflieger doesn't enable WSFp as material option... )

Let's see a side view of both these models.

It seems that the quality depends on the print orientation which the customer has no control over. When orientated correctly these models are fantastic. When orientated incorrectly the models are of such a low standard that they can not be used. If refunds are not given for incorrectly orientated models, buying from shapeways becomes a lottery.

I'm not willing to risk wasting money on a sub standatd product. I will not be ordering any more shapeways models unless refunds are issued for sub standard printing.

Ian

A recent comment:

Just printing an aircraft wouldn't work because it might just be orientated in the 'preferred' orientation. What you need is a shape that will show the banding which ever orientation it is printed in. I suggest a cube with a shallow pyramids on each face.

The project is in hand. What I shall do is create a cube of 6 aircraft - Zoe has been good enough to send me details of two aircraft which will suffice for the test.

Hi Guys,

My apologies for the delay in responding, I've been chatting with Customer Service about this issue all morning and I want to stress that customer happiness is first priority in everything we do. We know print orientation varies the finish on a model and while we do not guarantee a specific print orientation, we do try to orient a model in a way that minimizes inevitable stepping. I agree the picture on the materials page (link) is currently inadequate and I will change it shortly to accurately reflect the "worst case but still acceptable scenario".

The reason we can not guarantee print orientation is one of cost effectiveness for you and for us. We strive to provide the lowest prices by packing the printer as efficiently as possible - with as many models per print run as we can. So if there is a space that a model plane will fit in that is vertical, we'll pack it in there. Next time, it might be in horizontally. As you notice, this changes the finish due to the direction of the stepping. We also use production partners who operate the same way, in a manner of efficiency. We DO try to take into account which print orientation works best, but we just can not guarantee it every time, so we do not say that we can.

Your happiness is our top concern, and if you are very unhappy with print quality, right now our policy is to reprint or refund. We are happy to do this as it is not a major issue for us on the first print, or even the second, however, as you can imagine, this becomes very problematic if models with intrinsic concerns re: print orientation are being ordered regularly, particularly through a shop as is the case here. We want to guarantee both your happiness and that of the customers ordering from your shop, but continuously reprinting due to orientation issues can become very costly for us over time and will ultimately hurt us and the community. By making it more clear on the materials page about the variation in finish possible due to stepping, I hope we can present realistic expectations so that refunds or reprints can be issued when there is a clear discrepancy.

With that context in mind, we want to come up with a a sustainable solution that puts your needs first. Josh, our VP of Engineering, wrote a great post earlier today about what is happening under the covers at Shapeways as we work on solving all the issues that we know will make it a better experience for you. The full post is here: https://www.shapeways.com/blog/archives/1460-Inside-Shapeways -Building-an-Infrastructure-for-Growth.html

To pull from it, we know what you want, we hear it through threads like this and from the CS team directly. Moving a 200 ton stone (our current software) to get to the foundations underneath is what we are doing creating In Shape 2. It is taking a while and we're 33% there. I want to be clear that the ability to specify print orientation is a tool that we want and will be available with InShape 2. This is not something that is going to happen tomorrow but it is something we both want and are working towards.

To get back to the specific issue here, there has been no change to the refund policy, and we are going to take another look at this order. From what I can see this should be a refund, and we will follow ASAP with you.

Natalia,

As you can see from my images, the print orientation is not necessarily the issue (and so it shouldn't be), however the images that Zoe Brain has provided definiately show signs of either the wrong printer or print settings being used for the size of the model. Now, the printer settings or the machine used is nothing that a Shapeways customer can ask for or expect, however the expectation is that models come out as is shown on the material page - changing the material page because of 'efficiency' is not going to placate Shapeways customers, in fact if the goal posts move it will more than likely drive Shapeways customers to another company that can provide what they advertise.

Just saying it like I see it,
Paul

OK now I'm confused. This is what Christel Hagens has posted re the subject

"Christel Hagens
JUN 28, 2012 | 09:53AM CEST
Hi Keith,

Thank you for this link, I am afraid this is indeed the way we do work. These things can happen to White Strong & Flexible models, here you can see the stepping on some models. And this does happen a lot to these small airplanes. We do mention this on our material page but I must agree that the picture isn't that clear.

We are working on adding some better pictures so the customers and designers can see the stepping better on models. The issue is that if we would reprint these models the same thing might happen again, because we do mention this on our material page to warn customers and designers about this we unfortunately also can't refund this.

Sorry about this.
Kind Regards,

Mrs. Christel Hagens
Customer Service Agent
www.Shapeways.com
bkupton
JUN 28, 2012 | 03:39AM CEST "

So basically which is it? I should add that the mixed response is far from reassuring and is playing directly on our concerns.

Hi Natalia;

Natalia wrote: "The reason we can not guarantee print orientation is one of cost effectiveness for you and for us. We strive to provide the lowest prices by packing the printer as efficiently as possible - with as many models per print run as we can."

Rather than print (for example) the model plane horizontally to completely fill the print run why not select the next item in queue to be printed that will fill the available space and leave the model plane as the first item to be included in the next print batch?

You wouldn't have to deal with an upset customer and additional reprint and shipping costs this way. Shapeways could add a few days to the delivery time to account for this if necessary; I'd trade a few extra days to print if the item gets printed correctly the first time.

There are lots of people who are interested in purchasing via Shapeways but won't because they aren't sure they'll get useable product. You're going to be deluged in orders when you put that fear to rest.

Here are two side-by-side pics of a WSF part printed in different orientations:

https://www.shapeways.com/forum/index.php?t=msg&goto=2679 5&&srch=print+orientation#msg_26795

Note that this has only happened to one out of six prints of this part.

The bad airplane looks a lot like problematic prints years ago. Those were blamed on poor printing settings (the avaliable modes go 60 to 180 micron layers, so things can vary a lot) or too much recycling of the nylon dust.

If the airplane is the new acceptable quality, that is a step backwards. The current image used in material info page shows stepping but not as bad.

Hi guys, thanks for the feedback, I totally hear your confusion.

We are actually working across European and US timezones, which may explain the apparent communication gap.

We're getting in touch with Keith directly to come up with a solution that he is happy with, whether it be a reprint or a refund.

We want to make sure everyone in the community has transparency into the refund policy, which this case has proved is not clear enough. I'm working on making it clear and fair and you can expect that in the next week at the latest.

Best,
Natalia

To be clear - we dont want refunds! Refund policy is not really the issue, we want a product we can use, or the reassurance that if the product is substandard this will be reprinted. I'm interested to find out just how many models this effects as a % of the numbers produced. Anecdotal evidence is that it is a small %, at least as far as customer comments is concerned, yet Christel says " this does happen a lot to these small airplanes". Sorry but it seems like something doesnt tally.