Preventing Rejections - Update on Project Caterpillar

Discussion in 'Suggestions & Feedback' started by Roy_Stevens, Feb 21, 2013.

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  1. MichaelMueller
    MichaelMueller Well-Known Member
    Hi James,

    great posting. I really agree that customer-orders shouldn't be canceled this way. Also a cooperation with companys like ebay, amazon, etsy or dawanda would be a great benefit. I'm always astonished that shapeways is not doing much conventional advertisement like similar companys. Shapeways relies to the community and their personal marketing power in the social network. Beeing part of such a strong community makes you feel that you can actual change things. It's easy to forget that shapeways is a company with a management so it's up to them how to run the business.
    I like to think that there is always a way to communicate and that feedback might help to improve weak procedures.

    Cheers!
    Michael
     
  2. uncommented
    uncommented Member
    Do you think that Shapeways as an entity actually cares about its 3d modelers and their ability to reliably produce works? I'm starting to have serious doubts.
     
  3. Roy_Stevens
    Roy_Stevens Member
    I wouldn't be rich, but I could turn this into a nice side income stream IF I dared spend the money to advertise my products in related magazines, send items to bloggers and product reviewers, and other things that cost money but bring in customers. But I don't dare because it could be the first, it could be the fiftieth customer and then wham - my product is shut down due to someone not liking what they see in Netfab. And then all my advert money is wasted at best, and noone will ever look at my products again at worst.
     
  4. UniverseBecoming
    UniverseBecoming Well-Known Member
    Hi Michael,

    Thanks for the compliment. :)

    Yeah, we'll just have sit back see what management does this year. I hope they keep in mind that when it comes to online related businesses they can go from thriving community to ghost town overnight. Case in point, Myspace! Hopefully they stop and take a good look at the core foundations stones (the designers) and make sure everything is sound in this area. Are the designers being fairly compensated for their innovation? Yes or no? Is the competition doing a better job at providing this compensation? Are the designers happy; yes or no?

    Maybe Shapeways should replace the word beta next to their logo. At least until the New York facility is completed. :p

     
  5. mkroeker
    mkroeker Well-Known Member
    Sure seems hard to hire new engineers with 5+ years in the 3d printing industry. I wonder why that is ? :D
     
  6. NickHawkins
    NickHawkins Active Member
    I've just got a rejection:
    I can accept dimensioning issues not being caught until an attempt is made to print a model but how come a file can be OK on upload but 'bad' by the time it is submitted for printing?

    I have 'freshened up' the model (with cleaner topology) and hopefully it won't have 'gone bad' on Shapeways servers by the time someone next tries to buy a print ;)
     
  7. PeregrineStudios
    PeregrineStudios Well-Known Member
    This is the one area where Shapeways really, soundly, and unfortunately falls flat, on its face, hard. The prices are good, the interface - while occasionally buggy - is easy enough to use, and the customer service is friendly and helpful. There's just so much internal confusion and turmoil that nothing seems to get done in a timely manner, if at all. We've been promised a 'successfully printed' flag, which I have yet to wrest a straight answer out of the forums on whether or not it's actually been implemented (internally) or if its even still 'in the works'. And if it IS 'in the works', it has been for many months now. I simply don't see how it can take that much time to implement. Slap a sticky note on a USB drive if you have to, there are ways to make it happen, I'm sure. There is zero accountability or reasoning to rejections of models - one person will inspect a model and approve it, and the next day his co-worker will reject it. There seems to be very little or no communication within the different Shapeways teams and between Shapeways and the various printers it contracts to. One would think that if Jim comes in to work today and approves a model, tomorrow Josh could receive that same model, see that Jim approved it, and let it through. There needs to be communication and explanation, not just internally, but to us, the sellers, as well. If one of my models is approved once, but even though they made it work, it was troublesome to print and they make a mental note to reject it next time, you have no idea how happy I would be to have that information relayed to me so I can fix those problems before I make it public, people try to buy it, and I make an ass of both myself and Shapeways.

    In summary, Shapeways has a lot of issues to work out. Here at the storefront, things are generally fine. The website can be buggy and we all know my issues with the UPS situation, but generally it's all good. Internally though, I think Shapeways has a LOT of work to do, establishing a line of communication between the sellers, the customers, Shapeways service, and most importantly, the folks on the factory floor making these things happen. Consistency and communication need a very serious overhaul, very, very badly.
     
  8. NickHawkins
    NickHawkins Active Member
    I don't completely agree with PeregrineStudios on this although I and (more importantly) purchasers of my models, have been burnt by inconsistent pre-preint QA.

    I've been involved with helping companies migrate from an 'evolved' process to a 'rigourously engineered' one and I know that it:
    - Is very expensive
    - Is time consuming
    - Negatively impacts on the core business whilst the change is happening
    - May transform staff from thinking people into 'wetware' robots' (who no longer bother to think)

    I don't want to pay for Shapeways to do this.
    It probably won't be as friendly a company at the end of it, maybe more like Canadian UPS :confused


    A complicating issue you have to deal with is what happens in the Christmas rush?
    (Note, this is NOT specific to Shapeways, it's a more general issue.)
    - The website guarantees Christmas delivery if you order by X
    - Many orders are placed at the last minute
    - QA gets rushed (in Shapeways case this might result in borderline models being marked OK)
    - After the rush QA settles down again...

    Shapeways need to get better and a bit more joined up but I'm not expecting perfection, I'd far rather deal with people committed to doing their job well than an anonymous business process.

    Nick H.
     
  9. stop4stuff
    stop4stuff Well-Known Member
    If this hasn't the potential if losing sales, I would find this very funny.

    Why should this be funny - it is a 7 part model, none of the parts are attached to each other, all of the parts meet the requirement for the minimum size - but it is not funny. IMO this rejection is as a result of an operator not understanding the basics of their job, so intead of a happy customer, there are now messages and emails flying about to get the situation resolved.

    Paul

    p.s. my pendant from earlier in this thread is now printable with no changes - nothing to do with silver flow, just a few issues buffing up the silver due to the thin wires.
     
  10. mkroeker
    mkroeker Well-Known Member
    The "be lost in the printer" part makes me suspect that your parts are very small and the operator in question
    wants you to sprue them together ?
     
  11. stop4stuff
    stop4stuff Well-Known Member
    The [smallest] part in question is 4.89 x 9.35 x 3.49 mm, these sides add upto 17.73mm = bigger than the minimum 12mm

    If they wanted me to sprue the parts up together, that would have been conveyed in one way or another.

    Paul
     
  12. uncommented
    uncommented Member
    Ok, now I've had it.

    A month ago, Shapeways cancelled multiple orders and told me my model could not be printed. I went through multiple slow, painful rounds of iteration - during which I specifically requested they tell me if there was something wrong with it - until they sent me a test print. Upon receiving my test print, I put my model back on sale. Now they have declared it unprintable again.

    Last night, I received the following email:

    So in short, they have apologetically fucked me over, and have provided very little information about how to "fix" the model. Meanwhile, its two months since I initially put the model up, I've wasted a lot ot time and money on test prints, and everyone who wanted the model (aside from the three who got theirs first) is SOL.

    I'm honestly not sure whether I should even keep trying at this point. Shapeways offers some nice prints, but if they are going to do this again, I'd rather get someone with a consumer-grade extrusion printer - who at least won't screw me - to produce an inferior quality product.
     
  13. UniverseBecoming
    UniverseBecoming Well-Known Member
    How bout this. How about a research and development phase for products. Rather than trying to get the machines to perfectly match what the designers are instructing them to do with their CAD/CAM instructions, why not just make it clear to everyone what's to be expected until the ultimate design goal is finally achieved?

    For example. Lets say an item prints successfully 5 times and then a problem occurs. Well, why not just document the problem with a description and maybe even photographs and then put that information right on the pertinent shop page? Make it so customers are informed of what may happen and that returns are not allowed for the product in its research and development stage.

    Then, once a product has been printed numerous times successfully it can then be bumped up in status where it can have the benefit of allowing returns if not 100% satisfied. Yet, should it ever be found to have a problem, it would simply be demoted back down to research and development status.

    That's how to deal with the customer aspect, but what about the designers? How do we keep everyone happy, including Shapeways employees, throughout the entire process? Simple, we just let everyone know what the machines will do and not do. A design rule checker that spots an error would simply inform the designer that for reasons A, B and C the machine will not print correctly and consequently there will be no returns or money back guarantee. The design would be put into research and development status. So if a designer for example wanted to order a box of polyamide dust that is supposed to be their 3D printed design, then so be it, just give them whatever comes out of the machine.

    You could even have it set up where designers could pay a premium to have their model checked for errors. Or, if they felt confident with the design they could wave the check and pay for whatever came out of the machine regardless of what the machine turned out.

    Design rule checkers would still check designs coming in, so as to hopefully spot anything that could compromise other designs, but they would only contact the designer if the a design would be suspected of possibly contaminating other orders, in which case the design would be given a possible contamination status and not printable until revised.

    It would seem to me that a business model something like this would be a lot less stressful for everyone. The work load on the design rule checkers would be drastically reduced and therefore they could spend more time investigating each order that was specifically paid to have detailed checking. The designers would be happy because they would would be operating the machines almost as if they owned the machines and were operating the machines themselves. They would be free to push the envelope if they wanted and most importantly, they'd only rarely be confronted because they would only be shown their design flaws when they either paid for it or it could possibly corrupt other orders.

    Keep in mind too that under the current system design checkers can be spending time on checking designs that aren't even REAL! I know it's a stretch, but it is entirely possible that a competitor or even multiple competitors could be uploading fake purposely erroneous designs just to throw a monkey wrench into Shapeways' core operating system. However, under a business model like I am proposing competitors wouldn't be able to cause artificial disruptions.

    Finally, try to envision the future. Look at how things are developing. As the whole 3D printing movement exponentially gains more and more momentum we are going to see more people who know nothing about 3D modeling and design in how it intimately relates to 3D printing. Currently, I feel by taking in a sampling of the forums, that Shapeways is mostly getting highly talented designers who know quite a bit about what they are doing as it relates to 3D printing, however, what about when the masses start getting involved. Even though nerves are being tweaked between the design rule checkers and the designers we are all competent enough to keep under control enough to keep working it out as can be seen in this thread, though discussions have been a little heated we are still moving forward to a degree, yet the masses aren't going to be so understanding.

    Changes are most definitely going to be made, but what kind of changes? Lets see! :)
     
  14. stop4stuff
    stop4stuff Well-Known Member
    Messed up formatting of the forum messed my ability to read your lengthy reply. ;)
    (and your reply does not show in the stuff below as I am trying to respond so I do hope it is good stuff that helps Shapeways and their partners understand that clear, open, language barrier free communitcation (as I've said all along) can help us all stop getting models rejected on the first order let alone to 20th.

    UB, I do take it that you have 1st hand experience of order rejections whether the rejecton be true or false?

    Paul

     
  15. NickHawkins
    NickHawkins Active Member
    If I had to pay for my models to be checked I would stop using Shapeways.

    3D modelling is a hobby for me, my models are available to others so I can give something back to the community.
    I am prepared to put up with the occasional model rejection because an earlier QA had passed it in error.
    I donate my 'profits' to a local charity.

    Nick H.
     
  16. mkroeker
    mkroeker Well-Known Member
    Remember that shapeways does not print everything in-house (yet ?), so at least for some materials they are at the mercy
    of their production partners themselves. (Who may even be reluctant to communicate that they needed several tries to print
    a particular order, lest they be considered too clumsy ?)
    And I assume they are already considering increased feedback between their own production and service teams - but
    creating a feedback mechanism that allows the machine operators to log how many "hidden" reprints were necessary
    (and for what reason) may be a non-trivial task when it must also not increase the workload, i.e. not reduce throughput.

    Collaborative tinkering between the designer, checkers and print operators - which is what your R&D phase boils down to -
    does not seem to fit in too well with the speed and efficiency requirements of shapeways' business model (as I understand it).
    So for truely marginal models you may still be better off with some traditional, local rapid prototyping business, unless your
    model is so spectacular or raises such fundamental questions that the shapeways crew can justify putting in extra hours to
    make it work.

    That said, i still assume and hope that most of the recent rash of rejections is just due to the inexperience of new hires and/or
    increased workload (less time per part for checking) - unfortunately it is quite easy in netfabb (and probably competing systems as well)
    to pick a wrong point while measuring.

    And finally, the grand disclaimer - as I do not have a shop, I hardly know what I am talking about. (And as English is not my
    first language, I may not even be putting it in the right words)
     
  17. UniverseBecoming
    UniverseBecoming Well-Known Member
    Yep! Plenty of rejections, Paul. I argued against every one of them too! :D None that had already been printed though, that's got to be even more aggravating! :laughing:

    I don't know how helpful my reply is to Shapeways, I'm just trying to brainstorm up some possible solutions. I'd like to see a solution developed for this ongoing problem since I'm interested in doing further development with some of the designs I have up such as photography and advertising and so forth.

    Good point Nick. Scratch that then, can't have a solution that causes more problems in another area. As a side, I think it's wonderful that you're donating to charity with your hobby. :)

    Mk, you're doing great with English. I would have never known. Then again, I taught myself how to read and write in English so I'm not that great at it myself and I don't really know for certain if you're doing great with English. Looks good to me though! :D
     
  18. NickHawkins
    NickHawkins Active Member
    As a designer it would be useful to be able to flag an order as a test print, this might have two effects:

    1) Pre-print QA might take more care to check the model and could send a response back showing where the model is only just within material specs.

    2) So long as the model is safe to print it should be printed even if the result might be imperfect, this would allow the designer to see if it looked right even if some parts were not quite thick enough for general sale.

    These changes could save time (money) for both Shapeways and the designers in the long term by avoiding rejections of previously printed models that had been passed in error.

    Nick H.
     
  19. matt_atknsn
    matt_atknsn Member
    Good day ladies and gents,

    I'm curious though: had the nuance rules for FD/FUD material gone out of favor?

    Cheers!

    RoeT
     
  20. Dragoman
    Dragoman Member
    Good suggestions!

    Greetings
    Dragoman
     
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