Final Negotiations on FD/FUD

I realize you probably can't answer this, but here are my questions:

Last time I checked, the good WD/BD/TD machine was 3x that of the good FD/FUD machine and the consumable were comparable. If that's even remotely the case, then why aren't the costs to customers comparable? I know from firsthand experience that cleaning WD parts is absolutely the pits, but there's no setup fee associated with it.

I can believe that the set-up fee is not just an attempt to pocket free money. That said, it very much is an attempt to discourage really tiny parts. Not necessarily an attempt to kill demand, just regulate demand to what can be profitable for you. Right now, that means killing tiny parts.

Broadly I don't have any issues with that. I know I wouldn't much enjoy trying to pick 5mm parts out of the tray. But my stuff is generally 25m or more (not always, but usually). You guys don't seem to have much difficulty picking them out of the WD or WSF trays...

It seems that there's not a lot of consistency. Some materials have set-up fees, others don't. Sure, some materials are more difficult to work with. Wouldn't that be better served by adjusting the volume build cost and leaving off the set-up fee?

Maybe you can have a minimum build volume requirement (but realize that we're going to gang models when that happens). How about a non-linear volume cost? Start off pretty expensive for tiny volumes, then gradually level out the cost.

No, I don't have all the answers. All I know is that it wasn't an issue to get my model in WD for 6 pennies, but now it's an issue to get that same 6 cent model in FUD and the price has ramped to $5.06.

Hi dymihail,

Yes, cleaning is the difficult part, and you are right that there is a lack of consistency in the pricing structure, something we are aware of and considering very closely.

The jump from 6c to $5.06 is considerable, but perhaps 6c is too little to begin with considering the cleaning, as you know is not easy at that scale.

Again thanks for your input and understanding, keep the comments coming, it all helps us work out the best way to proceed.

Hm, perhaps the setup fee could include the first cubic cm, like in silver. That would move the economic pressure towards 1 cc that is reasonable for making small but easier to handle models, yet doesn't punish too hard on bigger models that make efficient use of material.

The packing issue should be discussed with the people that handle the process. Adding sprues might be worse for the process than without if we're not careful (probability of breaks during cleaning that lodge inside the machine filters/gratings, grossly inefficient use of space/machine time, or excessive use of support material from the top of my head) So that even though it would be cheaper for users Shapeways would be shooting itself on the foot.

In the case adding sprues for multiple model printing makes sense, it would be good to design a standard way of doing it, so that it doesn't cause problems to the print shops. (One good way of saving money is not wasting it on doing things wrong)

Sure, I'll readily admit that 6c is too cheap. A metal caster would probably quote me a dollar. More likely, he'd rig up a half-dozen on a sprue for $2.

Perhaps the linear approach is the problem. These machines have historically been used for prototyping. You guys have the foresight to try to use them for direct manufacturing and are several years ahead of the curve. To me, the challenge with volume-based pricing is that volume, being cubic, makes numbers get real big, real fast.

The sweet spot for what's economical for our customers is not necessarily the sweet spot for what's economical for you guys.

I have a model that's 45cc. I prototyped that (before you guys existed as a company) on an Eden in High Res (I believe you generally run them in High Speed instead). It cost a fair amount at maybe $500 or so. But when I cast that in resin, it's literally $2 worth of resin and rubber. And I could sell it for a pretty penny and make my money back quickly.

Nowadays, even after hollowing, it still costs about 50% more just to print, in a lower resolution process than my prototype, than what I sold copies of it for. So it's still not economical for me to direct manufacture this model. Convenient, sure. But only two people would buy it. When I originally set the price for it in resin, numerous people chimed in. At my original price point, the consensus was that most would buy one just to complete their collection. But by dropping the price 20%, they'd by two or more. I did, and true to their word, they did.

I know that anecdotal evidence is a poor excuse for hard data, but it's the point that's important. A lot of us know what our sweet spots need to be to keep our customers. When a model hits $10 in FUD, but costs $1 in resin or metal, and the sales point was supposed to be $8-$12, well, your direct manufacturing loses out. Sure, I could gang a bunch of them together, but that kind of defeats the purpose of you guys offering storefronts.

Cyborg's response above is interesting and deserves consideration.

Okay, I got a question, not so much about pricing, or may be it does:

Some members were talking about sprucing the loose parts in a file for FUD. But I looked into the material spec and there is no mentioning of that.

So do we need to spruce the parts or not? For tiny parts like my soldiers, the spruce might cost more than the actual items. And increasing the cost of item on the whole, not to mention the time required to spruce it.

I asked the same question here and never got a reply.

From experience the answer seems to be no, unless the parts are very small. The first time I did it got them back without the sprues and since then I've submitted several without them quite happily.

Though it would be nice to know if the make the job easier or harder for the production people - Hey guys, we we want to make things as easy as we can for you, but if you don't talk to us and give us a bit of feedback then we can't.

Tom

Hey Tom & CGD,

We will get back to you on whether sprues make it easier for the FUD process,

Thanks again

I'm still trying to understand this setup fee and how it figures in.

Is it a one time setup fee? For isntance I design part A and run it. I pay the setup fee plus the material cost. Next month I need part A again. Do I pay the setup fee again? or was the setup fee payed the first time I ran part A?

I am wondering if it is like whenI get photoetchings done. I pay an original tool setup cost, but when I need the parts again, the tool cost is not needed because the original tool is already ready to use.

Brian

You need to pay every time you request the file to be printed.

The setup fee mainly covers handling had cleaning your items and is charged per model (even though there may be many seperate 'parts' to your model)

We have a saying over here: "It is the fee to switch on the printer."

Or more appropriately, the fee to press the "Print" button. :laughing:

Thanks. I appreciate the quick respone.

Brian

Ok, then a follow up question. Say I have a tree of parts and I need 10 need copies of that tree of parts. Does this mean the setup fee is $50.00?

Brian

Yes, unless you put all 10 copies into one file, then it's still $5.

WOW, that is expensive. For what I need, it is more cost effective to get a mold cut for injection molding. I received a quote from China yesterday and for the parts I need, it comes out to aproximately 5 cents per part. This is for two molds, 1000 shots which will produce enough parts for 5000 models. I think it would overload the system to put that many parts into one file.

I can see FUD being a good source for prototypeing to see if the parts work, then get a mold cut or resin cast the part.

Thanks.

Brian

@mctrivia said .. "Adding multiple models to a single file is super easy. In ASCII STL files you can do it easily in notepad by cut and pasting the triangle info from each to a single file. For binary STL files I wrote a program to do it on my server but I am pretty sure netfabb can do it and the program is free.

As long as you keep under 1,000,000 triangles you can add as much to the file as you want. If the new resulting model is more then 5.5cm^3 then you will save money with new pricing."

I did a search on Google .. found the following: http://netfabb.com/forum.php?aid=825842962&pid=213

I have netfabb basic. I played around a bit this morning trying to "Add part" to a project .. haven't had any luck yet at adding multiple parts to a file. Darn it. I might need another cup of coffee. :/

Wonder .. if you could create you files .. export as ASCII STL .. combine them as @mctrivia said using Notepad .. then load that ASCII file into netfabb or Meshlab and export as a binary STL?

Coffee before that!

If Shapeways come back and say: You need to spruce the parts... :confused

@CGD. I have no problem with that .. theoretically. The problem I have is simply that I need a faster computer. I use Google Sketchup and while it works fine form my purposes along with Meshlab and netfabb .. when I start adding parts to a spruce I can quickly start to see just how slow my computer is. Darn it.

My software does not yet add spruces. but I could add that feature. I think I am going to do a bit of rewriting and release the software in a few different versions:

Parallel Run: You can run on your server. No fancy features needed but jobs run in parallel so server load will be heavy if lots of customers come at once.

Series Run: Server load has a max because you can set how many jobs can run at once.

Offsite: The software runs on my server and you just need to install a javascript file on your web site.(this is what I will work on first as it is easiest for you)

Membership: You don't get your customers to use. You go onto my website select the files you want added and how much of each and it will make a pack for you.

I'm curious. Usually I want the spruce to connect to some unimportant area of my models, in my case, bottom of my vehicles. Or for figures, at the bottom of the shoes. I definitely don't want the spruce to connect right in the face of my figures.

How can this be automated, especially when dealing with multiple parts of different sizes and shapes, and area of importance?