Final Negotiations on FD/FUD

Old FUD $4.39
New FUD $3.49 +$5.00
So the first 5.6 cm3 will absorb the startup cost. Anything after benefits from the new discount. So that means the order needs to be $19.55 or more to absorb the new startup cost.

I think. Sorry, I hate math....

For the miniatures I am looking to have printed it looks like this benefits me as they will most of the time exceed $30 each. Single minis that don't I can group together no problem.

If that's the case, I might as well either forget about markup or close my shop because no one is going to pay an extra $5.00 per item and most people I know of cannot afford to buy a dozen or more railcars at a time just to eliminate the startup cost. For small items such as N or Z scale detail parts that even WITH markup are $3 or less, this startup cost is going to shoot the price up to around $8 and I don't know of any modelers who will buy a few dozen "small" items and pay an extra $50-60 just for these fees. If I was the one buying, I would say forget these guys and go with parts made by BLMA, Fox Valley Models, or any one of the other companies who don't have these fees to worry about. Sorry, but unless there is some clarity and I can buy the first round to eliminate the cost to my customers, I'm pretty well done with Shapeways.

The break even point is is about 10 cm3 so it's not an horrendous amount more except for the very small models.

But look at it from Shapeways point of view, it cost them a certain amount to process each order - some one has to do the accounts. pay the Paypal fees and pack it into its box. Don't forget that all the nice pieces of packing that keeps it safe are not free.

I think the way to get around this is two pronged. Offer the item on Shapeways site singly so people can buy from here if the want to but also buy some yourself in bulk and re-sell on eBay or wherever

Then you can use the higher cost of the item on here to justify a higher price on eBay and help offset some of those extra costs.

lets see ... if my quick attempt at math is correct:

1:6 scale knife model printed in FUD:
old price: 44 cents.
new price: $5.35....

my intended selling price after painting and finishing work $5.00

profit margin:
old pricing :about $3 per knife

new pricing : negative $ 1.91

that doesn't even factor in all the time i wasted working on dozens of models that i now won't have any way to sell at a price that is reasonable....

Old FUD $4.39 x 5.5cm3 = $24.15
New FUD $3.49 x 5.5cm3 +$5 = $24.20
So the break even point I think is 5.5 cm3

Agreed, especially when SOME crazy person orders .3mm ringed chainmail!

You might be able to do collected 1/6 sets of knives, swords, guns, grenades etc. I know it isn't ideal to what you wanted but weapon packs are quite common in the 1/6 world so it may not look so bad to your customers. Your customers could benefit from exclusive designs not to mention the product not being out of stock or the plague of the 1/6 world, limited sets then they are gone for good.

true... but my cost per prototype just increased by 800% in many cases... so instead of ordering 20 or 25 different prototypes in a $25 dollar order... i can now order 4 or 5.

it's almost entirely not worth it.

Packing multiple items together seems to be the way to go.

I think we were very lucky to get a break while this material was experimental that allowed us to order small things very cheaply and give us the ability to try many things - I'm sure Shapeways was not making a profit on some of them.

And we don't want Shapeways to go bust, do we guys?.........

But more than that - if you have a business strategy that relies on item X being available from supplier Z at price-point Z you are courting disaster.

One of the major abilities you need to survive in business is to be adaptable and be able to respond to whatever the slings and arrows of outrageous fortune throw at you.

And if your not running this as a business why are you complaining? your new toy has just got more expensive - so just buy less of it or go figure a way to make more money so you can buy more of it.

Just put your 20 Prototypes together in one STL file then the cost may even be less.

That's incredibly annoying. Because that renders the detail materials utterly useless to me. The $5.00 startup cost is enormous in comparison to the models I would (and have already) used it for.

The new price has basically increased the cost of the models by about 8 TIMES in some cases, and TurboCAD has a (unquantifiable) limit to the amount of detail it can convert across to .dxf before it just throws a wobbly.

A lot of the stuff I'd use FD for is a dollar or less (two or three at the outside; much more than that and it's cheaper to use SWF), so migitating that start-up cost to any degree per model would require probably ten-twelve models per pack. Which is not only too many for just one type (meaning it becomes more difficult to prototype), but also likely to run smack into TurboCAD's nebulous I-won't-convert-to-.dxf-tantrum limits. Hell, I can't get four cruisers in a pack, I'm never going to get eight plus corvettes. (I struggled with my last batch of fricken' fighters, because they were all curves.) And by that point, it's become way more expensive than SWF. The extra resolution is simply not even close to worth paying twice the extra. (Once painted, you have to look hard to tell the difference between two models I have, one in SWF an one in FD).

Case in point:



The two vessels with the red missile pods on pylons. One is SWF, one is FD. Can you tell which is which? I'm not even sure myself. You have to pick the models up and peer at 'em even when you have 'em in hand to tell which one is the supposedly better material.

It's really annoying, since the previous price was excellent. Heck, I wouldn't have minded it going up per cm by a modest amount, but that start-up fee is just way too much.

I certainly won't be ordering anything else in FD or FUD at that price.

That's a huge let-down Shapeways. I'm disappointed in you, especially considering the enormous amount of demand for the material. Doubly so after I spent the last three wargames conventions singing your praises about how Shapeways was revolutionising the wargames model industry and becoming competative with metal castings. You dropped the ball on this one, guys.

yes you need to be adaptable.... but asking people to adapt to a 20 or 50 % price increase is one thing....an 800% increase is a totally differrent scale of problem...

it's now cheaper for me to print many items in steel than it is in FUD.

i have doubts that my software can even do that without crashing

I know mine can't.

This ... combined with the fact that i'm still waiting for the FUD parts i ordered 22 days ago to ship.... is seriously curbing my enthusiasm for the whole 3d printing thing....

i've been enthusiastically promoting shapeways to everyone in the 1:6 hobby... right now i'm not seeing much reason to do so any more.

i love the potential it has, and the shapeways community vibe is great.... but i'm feeling a bit disillusioned at the moment.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8r1CZTLk-Gk

Well like you said you can still do WSF. I'd say that is a positive from your comparisons of the two on the game table. :confused

I don't know, I think that is a little too harsh. It was a trial period i.e. test period with X amount of unknowns and customer variables. That is the reason why I did not order but sat back and followed all FUD related news. I was actually semi-worried the price was too low and after the trial period might be a little too high (not to mention misprints, sticking support material, overall detail/quality etc). Now that it is set, I think I am ready to jump in.

I feel bad for those who were banking on this to be near similar or same concerning price but in the end it was a trial period. I don't think Shapeways is out to "get" anyone or price gouge them, since the prices for the rest of their materials is fair and I think it can be presumed the same care and attention in setting the final costs of FD and FUD were the same applied to those in the past. I can understand disappointment (who doesn't) but it was that same worry about cost that kept me from getting my hopes too high until the price was official.

OK, I just would like to ask a couple of questions. Has it been confirmed by Shapeways that the $5 start-up fee is per ordered model or per order?

So if I have model A, B, C & D and order one of each in one order, do just pay the $5 once or do I pay it 4 times, so $20 in total?

If it is the latter, the reasoning behind it is quite strange. The advantage of a material like FUD is that you can design & produce very small and detailed models. If you add a mark-up this way, that advantage disappears ...

And then for Shapeways customers. For us, the primary customers it is fine to add more models in one STL. For the secondary customers, the ones that do not do the designs themselves but just order from the shops, it will be an impossible task.

And if the solution is to combine a lot of parts in one STL, why can't that be automated in the order process before Shapeways sends it to the 3D-printing companies?

And also, if we all start combining orders in one STL, Shapeways will run into the same issues again. They will not earn the necessary cost via the intended start-up fee.

So, this does not seem to be the way to go ...

Cheers,

Jeroen


PS: You do not have to add sprues to combine several stl files in one - it can even simply be done with netfabb studio (freeware) , without crashing your PC ...

The free Netfabb Studio we are recommended to for checking wall thicknesses is capable of grouping STL files together I think.

Just open the first file, go to part/add to add the next one then part/move so they don't occupy the same space. Repeat as often as needed, than save as whatever.

Oh, I was expecting the price to go up somewhat. But on a scalar level, but not a massive hike up like this. (I mean, what amounts to a 400-800%/B] increase?)

After spending a great deal of time and effort saying how great Shapeways has been to everyone, and how it's the way forward for wargames miniatures, I'm just kinda torqued that Shapeways have basically priced a material that would have been useful and competative to the wargames model industry as a whole right out of the potential market, especially since I'd made a point of mentioning it.

Besides, if we don't give Shapeways some honest feedback, how will they know when they bog it up? (Or don't bog it up!)

Anyway, I've said my piece, hopefully when it will be at least noted in passing, so I won't rant any further.

My reservations on all this would stem from the lack of absolute quality for the price. My FUD experiment with two tiny model buses in 'N' gauge was just a little disappointing, given the variable print finish (acceptable) and the sticky yellow gunk (unacceptable).

While I myself can deal with my own prototypes for personal use, and make good use of FUD, I see no circumstance where I could economically offer such models for general sale, particularly if the buyer destroys their expensive purchase trying to remove the sticky residue.

For now, I will stick with polished WSF, which so far I am immensely happy with.

The start up fee is no different to WSF (spart from the actual $ price)... the limitation on shells in a single file is the number of traingles (currently 1 million).

The start up cost covers the clean-up costs, which for us designers who can create files with multiple models sprued or stringed together, this is not an issue. The start-up cost factors in when a small model is ordered by an outside customer... will they order, or won't they?

Form my stanpoint, I'm of the mind that creating a 'model' comprising of several individual small models, grouped together makes sense for customer orders and many prototypes sprued together makes sense for my own orders.

The above applies to FUD only.

FD is (imo) more fragile than WD or TD and doesn't warrant the cost, but there is another issue with WD & TD that's printer based... the model needs to be of a resolution to make the printer comply with the surfaces - create a model with big faces and the chances are that in WD (at least) there will be major stepping even on flat srufaces.

I've had models in all of the materials asides from glass, and for detail, FUD wins over everything... 'we' have just got to accept the rules and not take the mickey.

Shapeways are learning and adapting to their new materials, we should take a step back and do the same too.