Cease and Desist, Copyrights - What do you want to know? (updated!)

Wow, lots and lots to read and trying to piece it together. I'm sorry, I'm just catching up and I'd like to ask the question to get a simple answer, if you guys don't mind.

I intended to open a Shapeways shop to sell my prop replicas as 3D printed kits to build. So, yes, it was from licensed stuff : Doom, Tron, Bioshock and such.
But, on the opposite, it was complete re-designs of those replicas : The Tron Lightcycle, for instance, has a pilot within ( something never done before ), and I did not copy any existing toys already made.
I just want to do the replicas that have never been made before, the ones I would love to have the chance to buy.

So question is : Even if everything else is different, will the fact that it has the appearance of something that is owned by majors get me or Shapeways a C&D letter, or worse ?

If yes, then copyright laws are just choking creativity...

Thanks by advance for your replies.

I don't know how copyright laws can be choking creativity when something you want to (re)create is based upon something you know already exsists in name. However I do know that the safest course of action is to create whatever you're creating, get a print, take some photos and ask the IP rights owners for permission to jump on their bandwagon*

*bandwagon = a name or product that a company has spent millions on to get the name where it is today.

The problem with that is in trying to get through to the appropriate person in that large corporation. And when you do it is just too easy for them to say "No", rather than giving it any serious thought.

I have been on the receiving end of a "cease and desist' and it ain't much fun! In my case I was approached by someone who showed me two very rough images from a movie that showed a decorative item she liked. She wondered if it would be possible to recreate it. I did. Started selling and for a while it was my most popular item in my shop. Then I heard from a company that was selling these same items. So closely did my model resemble theirs that they claimed I had bought one and 3D scanned it! Was going to fight it for a while but then gave up...

One of the key things to keep in mind is this: If you make a "Tron" model that is just slightly different to the movie version, and you advertise and sell it as a Tron model then you will indeed be looking for trouble.

Glenn

Glenn, I've been on the receiving end of a 'claim' that involved a domain name, upshot was that I won as I could prove that the domain name was registered long before the company or trademarks were registered. (yep that took some homework to get there, but I stood my ground and had evidence to back it up)

The safest course of action for all things that may be thought of as someone else's design, copyright, patent* is to simply ask**, "What is your policy regarding the useage of 3D printed models resembling your design and what is the useage policy regarding the name attached to your design?" That exact same question stumped kNex so your mileage may vary with other IP rights owners in getting the rights to reproduce an iconic film model or use that 'household' name for your models.

*don't forget these terms have different legal meanings in different territories.

**It never hurts to ask

Thank you for your replies.

When you try to get in contact with Disney or another huge company like this one, you better be able to pocket out the big bucks because they are gonna charge you for using their franchise ( and that's normal ). So you better be a company already, able to sell a lot of stuff in stores.
When you are a nobody, like I am, the big company doesn't even want to be concerned with you. The numbers are way too low... But we are in sort of a grey area here : It's too low to produce a line of replica/toy, but they still won't allow a few sets to be sell. I mean, fifty lightcycle kits sold is a great deal for me, for Disney it's laughable.
So, nothing happen, nothing is produced.
And if someone still try, he end up on court. Awesome. :evil:

As for creatitvity, yes, I'm using someone else's design. BUT everything else is different : The approach on how to do it, the way to do it, the tricks you're using, the new ideas... and trying to do something better, something that has never been done before.
It's just an engineer's creativity rather than an artist's, but it's still the same brainjuice and efforts that are used here.

Sorry, I have better things to do instead of spending a lot of time trying to go throught all the barrages of " the big company ", to end up getting a " No, f**k off, you ant."

So it's a deadend... what a waste.

Again, thank you for your replies.

Why all the negativity?

If your idea is 'the next big thing', go ahead, design it, get it printed, make the model page here on Shapeways for public viewing only (this way you have a published design generally recognised as having unregistered rights), then approach the IP owners with your idea/design. If they say no and go ahead with it anyway on their own, if nothing else, you'll have bragging rights and, you never know you, may be surprised when they offer you a job with their design department

Or just take that creativity in another direction for something that is totally your own and launch the product via a crowd source funding program like Kickstarter.

Davlin: be careful how you brandish "creativity". Paramount obviously don't think you are being creative.

Paramount have the handicap if you press the situation, of proving their case. Copyright is only as good as the first legal challenge.

@ stop4stuff : I wrote a long reply to you, and then deleted it ( I'm sure you have better things to do than reading a novel ). In short, I'm not a genious and I do not create " the next big thing ". Just trying to do a good job.
Also, I'd say being in France cuts you out of certain opportunities, like Kickstarter for instance. Of course, there are other websites like Kickstarter but they do not have the same amount of backers, far from it.

@ Phxman : You are totally right, and I don't see myself in a legal battle against a major. This is why I end up doing nothing, unfortunately. End of line...

Thanks, both of you, for your replies.

Davlin, as far as I can see there is nothing stopping anyone in France from starting up a Kickstarter campaign - I'm in the UK and looked at them before when they were limited to the USA only, but their T&C's have changed since then. If you find different please post a link. And my spelling might be carp, but I enjoy reading, it gives my brain something to do in between dreaming up solutions to design ideas - I might snap now and then but I don't bite.

Paul

I'm afraid they are still very much US only...

Be a US resident and at least 18 years of age with a social security number (or EIN), a US bank account, US address, US state-issued ID (driver's license), and major US credit or debit card.

http://www.kickstarter.com/start
(bottom right)


Glenn

Hi guys,

As a refresher, here is the official Shapeways stance on content and copyrights:

https://www.shapeways.com/legal/content_policy

Like it was said in the earlier discussion, it's a tricky field we're entering with 3D printed objects, so please let us know if/when you get a Cease and Desist letter.

Thanks!
Natalia

That's like, Whoa! It used to be in their 'Terms of Use' but not any more!

You might contact the people behind this project out of Vienna, Austria and ask them how a European based project can work around Kickstarter's terms. They may be slow to reply, however, as their project just met its funding goal mere hours before it was scheduled to close. I'm sure they're busy celebrating right now.

Yeah, weird, I can only assume they have one (or more) person on the team that fits their US-centric view of the world.

Glenn

Isn't the limitation Amazon Payments'?

Edit: Amazon has something in Europe, covering UK, Germany and Luxembourg. Thus KS should reach more countries soon. So far it seems people just set up a company in USA (mentioned in that article), or team up with an USA company (some miniature/games projects).

But more important, some other crowdfunding sites have no such conditions or with some luck are limited to the country where you are... so the point would be how much really matters to be KS based? Or the important part is the promotion in other places where you are going to get supporters (for example a game project in game blogs, forums, etc) and they will work anyways if based in Indiegogo, Ulule, Startnext...? It is a similar thing than SW, if you think about it.

Hi, Shapeways, in your Terms and Conditions, you mentioned that
" You, as a designer, retain all your intellectual property rights in your 3D design, including without limitation any and derivative works like 3D renders. "
My question is:
Do we, the designers, get any evidence of our IP rights ? Such as " model last updated on (date) " or any other evidence ? Which we can present out if someone claims about copyright.

The statements below are my own opinion.. I am NOT an employee of Shapeways. If their legal council wishes to edit this, I encourage them to do so.

=======
The straight up answer is NO. You are not provided with "evidence of your IP".
Shapeways is not the keeper/executor of your intellectual property and the rights thereof. You must arrange for your own backups and documentation.
The language above "you retain..." is really more of a statement that Shapeways will not claim the work as their own.
The statement above does not indemnify you from liability if you copy someone else's work, nor does it position Shapeways as a "registrar" of your IP either.

I have a file in my shop:
https://shpws.me/5eUm
It and every other model has a File Status like this:
cube.stl - Originally uploaded on 8 Mar 2012
But.. what this does NOT tell you is what the content or "shape" of the file was on that date.
At any time in the future I can replace that file with a ripoff of something you design, and then I can claim "prior art" based upon the file date above.
Note: I would never DO this.. I purely have that model in place to prove my point for THIS discussion.

Shapeways is not in the business of protecting your IP at this level.
You must arrange to secure your IP independent of Shapeways.
This is not something they need to (or necessarily CAN) fix or even address...
If you feel the need to protect your IP, you should retain independent legal council.

I understand the status of Shapeways in the business. I'm not asking if shapeways could do as a register. Maybe Shapeways can consider recording and showing " Last Updated " instead of " Originally Uploaded " ? This can act as something like additional evidence.

Proof of publication is not easy with the Shapeways set-up.

An easy way is to print a hard copy of your files, and then post them with a seal
Certified Mail to yourself. Keep the unopened envelopes somewhere safe.

Some Post Offices will put their Counter Date Seal directly on a hard copy., or maybe
a Notary will log your signature to the document.

If you belong to a recognized Society for your work, they may have schemes to track and
record your published output on file..

Shapeways send you an email every time you upload a file. Not only that but every file on your computer has it's own creation date.
Most modern graphics software gives you the opportunity to fill in metadata for each your files. This is attached to each copy of the file and can be used for copyright notices in the same way that EXIF data is used for raster images.