Cease and Desist, Copyrights - What do you want to know? (updated!)

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by baltimore, Jun 12, 2011.

  1. lensman
    lensman Well-Known Member
    Ha, I was thinking that very thing when I saw it!

    Glenn
     
  2. stop4stuff
    stop4stuff Well-Known Member

    I'm up for that too :twisted:
     
  3. tebee
    tebee Well-Known Member
    Well the one on Thingverse is PD licensed so we could all use that - it's hollow, though lumps on it aren't hollowed out - but - it has no hole to the inside, so it would need one of them adding to fit Shapways requirements.
     
  4. stop4stuff
    stop4stuff Well-Known Member
    I'm thinking something quite radical that's clearly based on the 'idea' but is not the same ;)

     
  5. 9694_deleted
    9694_deleted Member
    The rebellious side of me thinks its funny that you want to "poke the bear", but I have to wonder, what would the effect be for Shapeways, the community, and the whole 3D printing industry if we try and get them as upset as possible?

    More regulation, more quickly? I wonder...

     
  6. baltimore
    baltimore Member
    What will Shapeways do when they receive their first C&D?
     
  7. stop4stuff
    stop4stuff Well-Known Member
    Over history if the little man hadn't stood up to The Man, who knows where we'd be now?

    Just a thought, the cube in the film, is it CGI or a physical model, or maybe a bit of both?

     
  8. tebee
    tebee Well-Known Member
    Well you might get a lot more publicity out of it..........

    But, seriously , maybe it is something that does need to be brought out into the open, I for one am not sure what justification for the original C&D they were trying to use.

    3-D objects and 3-D design are in a very gray area of copyright law, it could be having some full and frank discussion about it would be a good thing.

    Tom

    PS. I'm a man who likes poking bears too - though not the real ones !
     
  9. 9694_deleted
    9694_deleted Member
    @baltimore Good question. Duann and Robert are sort of our two specialists in that area, and they've given it a lot of thought. I think I need to exercise some healthy discretion in my answer though. ;)

    @stop4stuff you've got a point. There isn't a clear cut answer on this one.

    It's so fun to be able to work with the community leading the way in making the world consider these question. Just sayin'. :)

     
  10. 36395_deleted
    36395_deleted Member
    Just a tip for Duann and Robert, something similar to this is what you see in the world of garage kits. These are mostly doll sized vinyl models of usually well known movie characters. I'd expect them to see C&D letters from times to times too.

    Also, an US friend of mine is a lawyer and if I remember right he has been involved with cases that were on the copyright issues of certain miniatures. If you want to get in touch with him, mail me and I'll check if he thinks he has info on this.

    Perhaps it's an idea if somebody from Shapeways legal department can explain a bit about copyrights, trademarks and patents. I know from experience in the field of miniatures that there is often a lot of misunderstandings on how this works. I know a little more about it (had to find it all out to inform members of my sculpting forum) but am no legal expert.
     
    Last edited: Jul 13, 2011
  11. 28396_deleted
    28396_deleted Member

    One thing we can all agree on... better a cease and desist than a subpoena.. :rolleyes:




     
  12. baltimore
    baltimore Member
    Looks like Marvel's lawyers are crawling on Shapeways now.

    At least one other member besides myself had their models set to private by shapeways so that shapeways could comply to a take down request from Marvel. I received an email today from Shapeways telling me that some of my models were removed. This is the message that Shapeways received:


    Re: NOTICE AND TAKE DOWN – https://www.shapeways.com/


    Dear Shapeways Legal Support:

    Marvel Entertainment, LLC ("Marvel") is a character-based entertainment company with a proprietary library of over 8,000 characters. Marvel owns or controls the copyrights, trademarks, and other intellectual property rights in and to the following publications and characters featured in such publications: Captain America, Hydra, Iron Man, and Spider-Man, among others.

    It has come to our attention that merchants on your site are advertising, soliciting, and selling unauthorized merchandise themed after Marvel's properties. Please see the following links:

    [model link removed]
    [model link removed]
    [model link removed]
    [model link removed]
    [model link removed]
    [model link removed]

    Please direct all correspondence to:

    Gregory Pan, Legal Affairs
    Marvel Entertainment, LLC
    135 W. 50th Street, 7th Floor
    New York, NY 10020
    Phone: (212) 576-4000 ext. 8619
    Fax: (212) 572-576-8569
    gpan@marvel.com

    I have a good faith belief that use of the copyrighted material described above on the allegedly infringing web pages and the linked pages on these pages is not authorized by Marvel, its agent or the law.

    I swear, under penalty of perjury, that the information in the notification is accurate and that I am the copyright owner or am authorized to act on behalf of the owner of an exclusive right that is allegedly infringed.

    Please act expeditiously to remove the material identified and contact me at (212) 576-4000 ext. 8619, or gpan@marvel.com if you have any questions. Marvel reserves the right to take all available remedies available at law and in equity to protect its interests, and nothing in this letter shall be construed as a waiver or relinquishment of any rights or remedies available to it.

    Sincerely,

    Gregory Pan

     
  13. stop4stuff
    stop4stuff Well-Known Member
    In my opinion ;), it looks like laywers have found a new preying field to fuel their greed!

    Make the model public, but 'not for sale'... shows you got 'teh skillz' without jumping on bunions.

     
  14. 36395_deleted
    36395_deleted Member
    I think that the publicity with the cube may have gotten shapeways to attract attention of legal depertments. Out of interest, what were these models?

    By the way, putting them up as "not for sale" is not a a foolproof way to keep you from being bothered by copyright owners. The right to create derivative are is also protected.
    http://www.bitlaw.com/copyright/scope.html#derivative

    Though I'd guess that in a court of law there us a chance it would be considered to be a case of fair use. Damn thing about that is that there is no set rule and it has to be decided by the court.
     
  15. baltimore
    baltimore Member
    Last edited: Jul 25, 2011
  16. 36395_deleted
    36395_deleted Member
    Thanks for the link
     
  17. stop4stuff
    stop4stuff Well-Known Member
    The thing is though... is this 'Super 8' energy cube a CG object or a real object? There's a bit of a difference of classification between the two.

    Putting a model 'not for sale' but public (on Shapeways) means that the model can only be bought by the designer/member and falls within 'fair use' (for personal use only), whereas if made private, the model can be bought by anyone who has the right link as the model is available in at least one material ;)

    Tis very grey times we are in :(
     
  18. 36395_deleted
    36395_deleted Member
    - The thing is though... is this 'Super 8' energy cube a CG object or a real object? There's a bit of a difference of classification between the two.

    For copyright it doesn't matter. The CG and touchable versions of the 'Super 8 energy cube' are derivative works. The CG and touchable versions used in the movie are probably derivative as well as I suspect the original design was a drawing from the design artist. :) Anyway, creation of derivative work is exclusive to the copyright owner (and whoever gets permission to do so) and that is most likely the movie company.

    - Putting a model 'not for sale' but public (on Shapeways) means that the model can only be bought by the designer/member and falls within 'fair use' (for personal use only),

    Strictly speaking this would only be the case of there are no pictures. Pictures would be derivative work again. In practice the chances of copyright owner going after you may be smaller. But it's not foolproof. Fair use is not a set rule but more like a set of guidelines for a legal court. In case of conflict they are the only authority that can decide on this. Here is the extract from the US copyright law (notice the use of the words "In determining"):

    ------------------
    § 107. Limitations on exclusive rights: Fair use

    Notwithstanding the provisions of sections 106 and 106A, the fair use of a copyrighted work, including such use by reproduction in copies or phonorecords or by any other means specified by that section, for purposes such as criticism, comment, news reporting, teaching (including multiple copies for classroom use), scholarship, or research, is not an infringement of copyright. In determining whether the use made of a work in any particular case is a fair use the factors to be considered shall include —

    (1) the purpose and character of the use, including whether such use is of a commercial nature or is for nonprofit educational purposes;

    (2) the nature of the copyrighted work;

    (3) the amount and substantiality of the portion used in relation to the copyrighted work as a whole; and

    (4) the effect of the use upon the potential market for or value of the copyrighted work.

    The fact that a work is unpublished shall not itself bar a finding of fair use if such finding is made upon consideration of all the above factors.
    ------------------

    This was taken from http://www.copyright.gov/title17/ You can find the whole US copyright law there if you want to see it.

    So making use "fair use" is more along the lines of "this is likely to be seen as fair use so I feel safe enough using it". As is the case with me quoting the text above. :)

    Note, you may notice that "personal use" is not specifically listed with the purposes. But the situation is a tad more favorable for the person claiming fair use if you look at the four factors. :D

    I hope this makes it clearer what I meant to say in my previous message.

    By the way, I'm not a copyright expert. I just know a little more about it since I'm a moderator of a sculpting group and I had to study it so I could explain it to the members. There are a lot of misunderstandings on the subject. Law experts: feel free to add and correct. And if you have time, I think a thread explaining about the function and working of copyright law would be useful on this site. :)

    Bye,
    Ming-Hua (who really needs to go to sleep now - cya)
     
    Last edited: Jul 25, 2011
  19. CadMonkey
    CadMonkey Member
    Would it be worth shapeways having a copyright lawyer on staff that could advise users if a model infringes coypright laws?
    Obviously it would be impractical and expensive to check every model, but if a user has created an item and has concerns that it could potentially infringe then they could submit it to be checked (obviously for a small fee).
    I believe that some of these large corporate entities would love nothing more than to remove our capacity to self manufacture. So we have an obligation, to shapeways and each other, to avoid producing material that would give these companies a justifiable reason to persue legal action. I mean, at the end of the day, copyright laws are there to protect the earning capacity of people who have invested time and money on producing something. With that said, I think a bit of maturity needs to be exercised on behalf of the copyright holders. Sometimes giving users the capacity to modify and use your copyrighted material can be highly advantageous. Take the Xbox Kinect for example, since releasing the source code the Kinect has found all sorts of appllications increasing the products market.
    Don't get me wrong, I'm all for sticking it to the man, but the man has a bad habit of sticking it back with interest.
     
  20. duann
    duann Member
    Hey all,

    Just wanted to say you need to take a look at the Shapeways terms of service and content policy

    https://www.shapeways.com/legal/content_policy

    We must abide by these laws or we risk losing safe harbor and the Shapeways site.

    We really appreciate your discussions surrounding the issue so please keep sharing your opinions and any relevant information you may have.