Need advice and a 3D modeler

I'm an artist who has created a set of four tools to use for needle felting. Currently I make these tools by casting them in resin in silicone molds. I've had to remake the molds a couple of times. I have to mix up more resin than I need for the tools so the resin will cure properly so there is always resin wasted with each casting. After casting, I have to clean up the tools. If the resin has been around for a while it stops mixing/curing properly. I really would like an alternative.

My market for these isn't large enough to tool up for injection molding, but it is growing. I'm wondering if 3D printing might be the solution, but I can't figure out how much it might cost to print a set of my tools. If the cost per set were about the same or cheaper than what it costs me to cast them in resin, I would definitely like to hire a 3D modeler to properly prepare files for printing. I can even ship them a set of tools and needles so they see in person what needs to be done.

All four tools are the same shape, what differs is the placement of the holes into which the felting needles are inserted. The holes have to be exactly the correct size to hold the needles in place. You can see from the attached photo roughly what size they are. These are solid except for the holes for the needles and also my name imprinted on the sides.

Jeanne

Here's a version I did for you. You can download it, see attached, and then upload it to Shapeways to get an idea of the prices. The 25K designation means 25,000 triangles. I also have a 1 million triangle version but I didn't bother to upload that since it is around 48 MB. If you are going to 3D print this then the best material would be Shapeways' Strong and Flexible Plastic. It comes to about $3 in Shapeways' Strong and Flexible Plastic with an unpolished finish. You would definitely want a polished finish because without it you would be showing too many print lines on your curved surfaces. For polished Strong and Flexible Plastic the price starts at $3.49. That's not too bad depending on what you sell these for. By the way you'll be able to sell them directly from Shapeways too if you would like.

As for the detailed measurement I was just messing around so there are no detailed measurements on this mockup. I mainly was looking into the different ways of making the letters. Normally when us 3D modelers make something like this we only create one half of it and then we mirror the other half, but you cannot do that with letters because when you mirror them they come out backward. So, I was just looking into different ways of doing it and found that they can be mirrored but they need to be mirrored twice after a 180° rotation.

I'm kind of burned out on doing freelance 3D modeling for people as I'm working on numerous projects for numerous people currently and I haven't really had much time to work on my own stuff so I'd rather not get more involved than what I've already done here. However, if you can't find somebody I suppose I could take on your project at some point here in the future.

One thing you should do is increase your skills and knowledge concerning casting since this is the most economical way to produce these. I noticed air bubbles so it tells me that you're just getting started doing casting but if you really wanted to mass-produce these by casting probably the best way would be to get 3D models made and then have them 3D printed in Shapeways' Frosted Ultra Detail Plastic and then use those as the Masters to make your molds. But you wouldn't cast one at a time you would cast something like 25 or 50 at a time. You would use vacuum degassing to remove the initial air bubbles and then put the entire mold in a pressure chamber to remove any residual bubbles that may have occurred. You would inject the resin into the mold via some kind of pressurized method the simplest of which would be something like a large syringe. Once the parts had cured you would then finish them via a vibratory tumbler with an abrasive media to get them looking perfect. At least, that's pretty much how I would do it if I were going to try to mass-produce these using something like silicone molds and polyester or polyurethane resin.

Good luck with it! It's a really great idea!

Thank you for the reply!!

I have actually been casting these for years. I know about degassing, but the resin I'm using doesn't require it. Sometimes when the resin is getting older I will see more bubbles. I know that isn't necessarily the best way, but I have limited finances and I cannot cast these in bulk. I only have 4 aluminum blocks that are setup to hold the needles in the proper position - the silicone molds fit onto those blocks. I can only cast one set of the four tools at a time. After the resin has set, I have to physically remove the needles in order to free the tools. The friend who machined the aluminum blocks that I'm using has retired so I have no access to having more made. The only way I can see to cast the tools with the holes for the needles is to cast them with needles in place.

That's also precisely why I thought 3D printing might be the solution - the needles wouldn't be needed to create the holes.

Thank you for taking the time to make a mock up! I do appreciate that!!

Jeanne

I see, I see. I forgot to take the needles into consideration, that does make the process a little more difficult. In the finished product are you saying that the customer adds the needles after the purchase of your product? Do the needles need to be removable? I'm pretty sure they need to be held in place fairly firmly because I think the process of felting involves a repeated push pull action and if the needles are not held firmly enough they will pull out on the pull action. Correct?

The 4 aluminum blocks that you are using during the casting process would be called a jig. It would be very easy to make this jig using 3D printing. In fact if needed you could even make this using 3D printing and brass or stainless steel with infused bronze and Shapeways also has a pilot program for aluminum too. But the ubiquitous Strong and Flexible Plastic offered by Shapeways could be used to create a jig as well and I think it would work perfectly.

If you give me all the dimensions of one of your aluminum blocks I'll make up a 3D model for that for no charge. Probably only take me a couple of minutes to make. That way you could experiment around with 3D printing and maybe develop a better manufacturing workflow that incorporates 3D printing somewhere along the line.

Another thing you can do is make the entire mold from Shapeways' Strong and Flexible Plastic. You would need to treat the surface with something like polyvinyl alcohol and a good release agent would be needed, but given the geometry of your product I can see this being feasible. The lettering that you see on the model that I made would need to be changed so that it could be released via a rigid mold but I think this could be done as a three-part or four-part rigid mold. Another thing you could consider is using something like epoxy putty as the casting material.

More difficult but completely possible, you could also set yourself up to do injection molding of a thermoplastic. This would involve making a mold out of metal using 3D printing and then using something like this to do the injection of the plastic.

Thank you!!

You are full of thoughtful ideas!! I appreciate you giving my problem your input!

Yes, the needles go all the way through the tools, do need to be removable and are held in place just by friction - the holes are currently formed by actual needles so perfectly sized (the needles are 15 gauge, 1.83mm or 0.0720 inches in diameter). Needle felting tools are used primarily on wool fiber - and it is possible to felt that to the point that it becomes very hard - but that isn't a desirable quality in needle felting.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/prittens/

The aluminum blocks just hold the needles in the correct positions. The size of the blocks isn't critical (they're just a bit larger than my tools)- they just have to have the holes in the correct arrangement plus have a recessed area so that the crank on the top of the needles can be recessed into the block so the block sits flat on the counter. That recessed depression also needs to be large enough so that I can use needle nose pliers to remove the needles from the newly cast tools.

It's a 2 part mold setup - the silicone molds were made to also hold the aluminum blocks and that part of the mold start deteriorating more quickly than other parts. After a while, my molds start deteriorating the two part mold is holding up better, but it can be pretty wonky too. The top of the tool is completely exposed in the mold - so I have a decent size hole into which to pour the resin.
I'd actually prefer the name to be recessed rather than relief - the name ended up being relief on the last blank I made to create the molds.

My resin sets up in 15 minutes. There is no time for degassing. When the resin is new, it casts very well - and the minor bubble that you spotted on the one image wouldn't count as a bad cast. Obviously I would really like to have perfect casts every time - which is again why I was looking at 3D printing.

Some of the size of my current tools might be reduced, BUT one of the reasons that my tools are good is they are comfortable to hold - a certain amount of thickness between thumb and finger is necessary (more than what you imagined in your mockup).

I don't want to spend my time working with resin and casting these things, but people want them and I recently was asked to fill an order for 30 sets.

I'm not looking to make a lot of money off of these and the estimated price is not terrible - I was just hoping it would be less. It would be so nice to have them made, all look beautiful and do what they need to do.

I have errands to run!
THANK YOU!!!
Jeanne

WOW! YOU'RE AN AMAZING ARTIST!

When you get the chance, provide a picture of one of these aluminum blocks. I wasn't able to see it well enough from your description.

Yeah, I know what you mean by not wanting to mess around with resin casting. That's a lot of work!

Thank you!!


So you can see how I'm using the aluminum blocks :



But I really don't want to learn how to cast my tools better or even faster or both - I don't want to devote my time to casting at all!

I'm trying to "push" felting into areas that it hasn't quite been used for before and that takes time to experiment, to try some crazy ideas and then follow that until it succeeds or fails.
I would dearly like to get back to my real art passion: oil painting (www.intimateforest.com).
I need to rebuild my website from scratch. I'm trying to repair my home. I need to write a third book ... I have a lot of things I need/have to do. I would like to eliminate casting tools completely!!

At $3/tool $12/set and even a bit more - that would fall into an acceptable ballpark.

Whoa! Love your oil painting too! You're a master artist!

You should open a shop on Etsy. That's where the dollars are these days.

Thanks for the pics. I see now what you meant. I can make that, but first, since you'd rather get back to your art rather than messing around with casting, how about looking into low volume injection molding. I'll alter the model I already made and send it to a low volume injection molding place to see what they'd quote on it. I don't mind doing this as I am curious what they're charging these days for low volume injection molding. One thing though is you mentioned that your holder design is thicker. How thick is it? The version I made was 1/4 inch thick. Let me know.

You remind me of myself! I too always have numerous irons in the fire. I sometimes tell people that I have 500 years worth of stuff to do! HAHA! My dream is to just build stuff without any kinds of limitations. My true love is innovation. I'm an inventor.

I can see what 3D printing would be of interest to you as an inventor!! Too bad we can't 3D print a few clones to help us out with all our ideas and projects!!

I like problem solving so whatever art form I'm using I end up making tools or finding new solutions to old problems.

My tools are probably about 1/2" thick at the widest- and then there is the slight concave areas on both sides to make holding the tools more comfortable. I don't know how thick they are at the thinnest - and I don't have calipers to measure that. It's ergonomically important that there is that increased thickness. Needle felting is highly repetitive - basically you're stabbing fiber about a zillion times to make an object so there's potentially a lot of strain on the hands. Having a tool that offers a thicker grip helps!

I've written a couple of plastics manufacturers to try and get a quote on what it would cost for a low volume injection molding - even the place that promised they would reply within 48 hours didn't. Not certain that my research has been accurate, but my impression is that the tooling up for mass production (even low volume) is still thousands of dollars. I don't have that sort of money to spare and it's doubtful that my tools can generate that big a market unless I were to become the Bob Ross of Needle Felting (which is not a goal I would desire - LOL!).

I have a shop on Etsy, but I really don't care for Etsy - they've gotten away from handmade (which is where they started) and now there are a lot of vendors selling premade stuff from China and elsewhere. To get noticed there you need to have a lot of stuff available which isn't possible when it can take you a week to make one item - eh! I've been searching for a good gallery for years - but my oil paintings aren't "cutting edge/modern" so it's hard to find proper representation.

I teach online classes with CraftArtEdu and we're looking to open up a marketplace on there for the instructors.

Here's what I'm thinking currently about this project -

Throw out my original tool idea with the name branding and all. Save the necessary qualities: size, comfort, needle position and then toss in CUTE

These are just some quick sketches that I dashed off yesterday - the drawings are rough to say the least - but I sort of like the idea of making the holders look like cute sheep - most needle felting is done with wool fibers so it's just so right! Also people like "cute" and will pay more for cute.

I think I like the one in the second row best (bigger head). My son preferred the one in the third row (proportions are more "correct")

Yes! Very smart idea! Nice drawings too.

Yeah, I kinda like the third one too. I think it would be very cute.

I can sculpt that in Zbrush. Or perhaps you could sculpt it in clay or some other medium ( felted? HAHA! ) and then send it to me and I could 3D scan it. I just got a nice 3D scanner a few months ago but haven't thought of anything to use it for yet. In this case you wouldn't need to sculpt it at the scale of the actual tool, you could sculpt it at any scale and I could scale it in software once it was 3D scanned.

I'm can't do any sculpting right now because I have 6 other people I'm doing work for right now and I need to catch up. Are you thinking that you can make it work price wise via directly 3D printing your tools?

Yeah, Etsy has gone down hill in that regard, but I think they are trying to crack down on that. We'll see how the crack down works.

I saw one of your felting videos, the wizard one. You're very good at that! You have a nice pleasant Bob Ross-ish voice too.

LOL!!! Thanks!!

The Weezard class is an old one, but one of my favorites! I have a drawer full of weezards patiently waiting for homes.

I doubt that the sheep below will work as a model!! I'll think about possibly sculpting one in polymer clay - and I'd probably have to do it close to scale just to have some idea how that all works/fits. Not sure I will have time - I've got a ton of things to get done right now (and you know how that goes).

I'm hoping to make the 3D printing option work - at this point even if I ended up selling them at my cost I would still count that as a win - Generally the way people learn about my tools is they are taking one of my classes or they have bought one of my books - either way I've already earned something from them and if my tools can make the creation process a little easier and faster for them - that's good!

awwys those are so cute!

Do you sell these? Seems like you could make a fortune selling these!

That's what I meant to say, weeezarddd. hehe

Ok, well let me know what you decide on. I could probably even make it by scanning one of those in the photo.

Send me an email when you get a chance and we can talk about all of this in more detail. info@universebecoming.com

I've sold some of them - the Twig Sheep (they have twigs for their legs) are actually pretty easy/fast to make, but a lot of my stuff can take some serious time and people don't always understand what they are looking at, how long it took to make and it's value.

Needle felting is a weird market - there are some real artists out there doing amazing work and then there are a lot of excellent artisans who do good quality work and are happy making the same thing a hundred times over. So if you're in the market for a cute bunny sculpture the artisan is probably going to end up making the sale over the artist. I also am not good at marketing. Doing all the stuff to set something up for sale on Etsy is so extremely boring - I will still probably have to do some of that late October early November. Son would like a higher frame rate monitor for Christmas!

None of those sheep are the right shape really for my tools - although I'm sure you could morf them into what would work for tools.

Whoa! I'd be selling those for a couple of hundred dollars each. I'd simply ignore all the noise of the mass producers and do my own thing. I don't know if you already know but there are a lot of 1/12 scale collectors out there. Basically, doll house related collectors. That's a huge market and they would love to have your original art added to their collections. You just need to tell them who your are so they know they're not buying from Chinese sweatshops!

I agree. It's a lot of work doing marketing. UGG! I hate that too! I need to make enough to hire employees! Someday. *dreams*

For the sheep - I doubt that they could be sold for $100 - might be able to get someone to buy it at $50, but I bet $30 would be the selling threshold.

These are all way too big for miniature collectors. I joined a miniature forum when I first started doing needle felting (I was only doing cats back then), but most of my cats were too large for even 1:6 scale. Last cats I did were closer to 1:2 scale.

There are artists out there doing tiny polymer clay sculptures to which they add fur and they really do well in the miniature market - as well they should! Some of them are really amazing!!

My needle felting work is certainly affected by the fact that what I am primarily doing is creating needle felting classes. I do get to try lots of interesting things, but somewhere in my head is figuring out how this might be a class and what level of expertise it's catering to. I like creating classes, but the artistic process for that is different than just completely following your own muse and trying to find venues in which to sell and show that off.

I thought to myself after I wrote that, "She most likely knows about all the inns and outs of it." When I look at your sculptures though and think about all the time and talent involved and I just get the feeling that they are worth so much more.

are these items used in witchcraft
like in Haiti

No, these are used for decoration. Art collectors also collect them to add to their art collections.

i read with curiosity about your product design problem.

Its an admirable and interesting process your pursuing
and wish you much success.

Despite all the fascination and google noise with 3d printing, it is still
a relatively limited, expensive and slow process, and it will
be a good while until it is really competitive enough
to consider using it for manufacturing anything more than
one-offs and small production runs although what people are designing
and printing is truly awesome.


have you considered partnering with a Chinese
manufacturer of a similar product area
, ie, needle makers?

else you could patent your product design then
find a willing manufacturer--something like this
might perhaps cost as little as a few pennies
a piece when mass produced
and you could reach a larger number of buyers
than you can with printed part