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Manifold problems in VRML [message #13487] Wed, 09 June 2010 10:31 UTC Go to next message
avatar EricvanStraaten  is currently offline EricvanStraaten
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There is something really strange with the online check. Here's what I found after much converting and uploading (all the conversions are taking in account that wrl and x3d work in meters):

-Export of a manifold mesh to wrl and x3d in Magics 13 produces a nonmanifold mesh (according to Shapeways)

-Export of a manifold mesh to wrl and x3d in Modo 4 produces a nonmanifold mesh (according to Shapeways)

-Export of a manifold mesh to wrl and x3d in Meshlab (latest version) produces a nonmanifold mesh (according to Shapeways)

-Export of a manifold mesh to wrl and x3d in Blender (latest version) produces a nonmanifold mesh (according to Shapeways)

-Export of a manifold mesh to wrl and x3d in Netfabb (latest version) produces a nonmanifold mesh (according to Shapeways)


-Export of a manifold mesh to wrl and x3d in ZBrush 3 produces a manifold mesh (according to Shapeways)!!!!

So ergo: only Zbrush exports (with my somewhat intricate meshes) a printable model! How can it be that only this program does this?

[Updated on: Thu, 10 June 2010 07:47 UTC]


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Re: Only ZBrush capable of exporting vrml? [message #13493 is a reply to message #13487 ] Wed, 09 June 2010 14:22 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar EricvanStraaten  is currently offline EricvanStraaten
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I am sorry but I can't find the file wich I tested it with. I've tried to with a file again from ZBrush, but it comes back with a nonmanifold error. So I don't know what I did earlier and probably I'm mistaken, sorry for that! So it seems that all the processes mentioned don't work with my meshes. I've tried to do a test with a simple sphere, and this works flawless (with a x3d-export from modo).


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Re: Only ZBrush capable of exporting vrml? [message #13497 is a reply to message #13487 ] Wed, 09 June 2010 16:08 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar EricvanStraaten  is currently offline EricvanStraaten
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Maybe someone could tell me what I'm doing wrong. Or is it just so that some models are just to 'complicated' to be conversed to vmrl?

My workflow is as follows

Modeling: DAZ3D (so usually this is a human figure)
Obj to stl: Meshlab (merging close vertices)
Cleaning stl: magics (closing holes leaving meshes intact)
Stl to obj: Meshlab (merging close vertices)
Modyfying: ZBrush (smoothing and such)
Obj to stl: Meshlab (merging close vertices)
Shrinkwrap stl: Magics
Stl to obj: Meshlab (doing nothing except unify duplicate vertices)
Obj to x3d: Modo (painting and rescaling a factor 1000)


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Re: Only ZBrush capable of exporting vrml? [message #13498 is a reply to message #13487 ] Wed, 09 June 2010 16:41 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar Youknowwho4eva  is currently offline Youknowwho4eva
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Would you mind putting up a failing file for us to examine? Please keep your posts to one thread also.


I learned a long time ago the wisest thing I can do is be on my own side, be an advocate for myself and others like me. -Maya Angelou
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Re: Only ZBrush capable of exporting vrml? [message #13513 is a reply to message #13498 ] Thu, 10 June 2010 07:13 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar EricvanStraaten  is currently offline EricvanStraaten
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Allright, I'll keep my posts in this thread. Embarassed

Attached is the file that I can not get to report manifolded (and i've tried about 40 different methods and with more programs than above mentioned). This file doesn't have color, it's just a test.

I don't think the problem is in my workflow, as said: a simple sphere gives no problems. The stl on which the attached file is based also uploads with no problems. When I analyse the x3d-file in Magics, it analyses identical to the original stl.

Is there something in the process at Shapeways that analyses my files as non-manifold? Maybe the scalingdifferences between stl and vmrl does the trick? Or maybe ZCorp is more critical when printing color?

Your help is very much appreciated because I almost can't wait to print something in color!

Greetings, Eric


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Re: Only ZBrush capable of exporting vrml? [message #13517 is a reply to message #13513 ] Thu, 10 June 2010 08:57 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar artur83  is currently offline artur83
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Ok.
First of, you're right, the x3d and vrml files are considered in meters as units.
The file you supplied has dimensions of 87 in one of the axis, it's too large.
but dimension not-withstanding, checking the file in NetFabb reveals a bunch of 'degenrate faces'.
the default check doesn't fix them, and when analyzing, the mesh appears to be manifold.
see: http://www.netfabb.com/wiki/Semi-Automatic_Repair_Options
"Remove degenerate faces", i've adjusted the tolerances to 0.001 for it to get rid of all degen. faces

however, even after fixing it and uploading, our own MeshMedic still had some issues with it. although it succeeded in fixing and the 3d file preview seems alright.

We will be looking into this further.
Re: Manifold problems in VRML [message #13518 is a reply to message #13487 ] Thu, 10 June 2010 09:22 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar EricvanStraaten  is currently offline EricvanStraaten
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Hi thanks,

Could you tell me how in Netfabb you spot the degenarate faces? Attached a screenshot of what Netfabb does at my end.


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Re: Manifold problems in VRML [message #13524 is a reply to message #13518 ] Thu, 10 June 2010 10:49 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar GHP  is currently offline GHP
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You may need to simplify your model (reduce the number of vertices). My experience with Shapeways suggests that it merges close vertices (based on some absolute distance between them), and since the numbers are smaller when the units are in metres, vertices are more likely to be merged, possibly resulting in a non-manifold mesh. Blender works similarly.
Re: Manifold problems in VRML [message #13563 is a reply to message #13487 ] Thu, 10 June 2010 22:21 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar EricvanStraaten  is currently offline EricvanStraaten
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I've tried to get rid of the degenerate faces in Netfabb. This works like a dream and surely cleanes up the model, but i still get a non-manifold error when I upload a wrl, apparently somewhere in the process some holes are created (see attached).

What I did is this:

-remove degenerate faces in netfabb, export as stl
-import in Magics automatic fixing in Magics (even less faults) - export to stl
-convert stl to obj in Meshlab
-import obj in Modo (you want to do that after the fixing because otherwise the UV-maps are thrown away - export to obj, because the x3d exporter in Modo upscales the model, when you downscale the Mesh itself by a factor 1000, this creates additional faults
-import the obj in Meshlab and export it as wrl, this is accepted by Shapeways, but with a manifold-error.

Now I'm waiting for the 'manual fixing' by Shapeways and hope this will work.


Here's some thoughts:

When I upload a stl, there seems to be no problem whatsoever. I haven't yet ordered someting in sandstone, but in all other materials things are working ok. In all the stl's that I've uploaded so far the degenerates are almost always present.

So the degenerates are present in my entire workflow, but don't appear as errors in Magics, and also not when I upload an stl (which could also be printed in non-color Sandstone, so why is the file for color so 'unforgiving'?).

When I upload a x3d or wrl, I get an error. When I sent the service desk the wrl, they find a lot of problems in the file after analyzing it in Magics 14. When I myself extract an stl from the wrl and send that stl to the servicedesk, they find no errors in Magics 14 and even less overlapping triangles than in my own analyse of the file in Magics 13.

Greetings, Eric


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Re: Manifold problems in VRML [message #13564 is a reply to message #13487 ] Thu, 10 June 2010 22:34 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar EricvanStraaten  is currently offline EricvanStraaten
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By the way: The handling of x3d's in Netfabb isn't all that straight forward. When you import a x3d, Netfabb assumes correctly that the 'original size' wasn't in meters, but in mm. However, when you export a 'fixed' x3d, Netfabb converts the mm-numbers to meters, so you end up with a file that is way to big. When you try to scale the model down with a factor 1000 in Netfabb, you create a model that consists solely of these degenerate faces, so this is no solution (thats why I put the obj to wrl conversion in my workflow, I haven't tested if this workflow ends up with a printable colormodel).


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Re: Manifold problems in VRML [message #13566 is a reply to message #13524 ] Thu, 10 June 2010 22:44 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar EricvanStraaten  is currently offline EricvanStraaten
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I did a test and reduced the model from 256872 to 59496 triangles. This didn't work and produced a manifold error. Any further simplyfying will destroy the model I think.


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Re: Manifold problems in VRML [message #13571 is a reply to message #13487 ] Thu, 10 June 2010 23:26 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar EricvanStraaten  is currently offline EricvanStraaten
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QUESTION: Is there a way to export a correctly scaled fixed .x3d from Netfabb without losing the color?


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Re: Manifold problems in VRML [message #13581 is a reply to message #13571 ] Fri, 11 June 2010 04:54 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar joris  is currently offline joris
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I have no idea to be honest, I've never tried. anyone else?
Re: Manifold problems in VRML [message #13585 is a reply to message #13487 ] Fri, 11 June 2010 06:24 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar deltares  is currently offline deltares
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I have exactly the same uses as mentioned above. STL works fine, but I really need the colored sandstone. I've uploaded atleast 200 times a file. And getting quite desperate; especially since there is this important deadline coming up.

So, did anyone ever solve the issue of having manifold errors just because VRML/X3D works in meters? I've tried things like making the object use, but using a scale factor, hoping that there would be less precision loss, or the opposite.


When I scale my object 10x bigger (making it too big to print), there is nothing wrong with it... except it's too large.

I read this is a common issue in the FAQ, surely there is a solution somehow? I've spent so many hours trying to get it right.
Re: Manifold problems in VRML [message #13586 is a reply to message #13564 ] Fri, 11 June 2010 06:27 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar EricvanStraaten  is currently offline EricvanStraaten
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Correction: I've tried to first fix a x3d in Natfabb, apply the correction, then scal it down with a factor 1000 (the model than seems to dissapear and has no scale), uploaded it, and... Shapeways says it's printable! Now for the final test: when you fix a texturized x3d in Netfabb, will the model still have color after that (i would say no, but maybe I'm wrong). Keep you informed....


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Re: Manifold problems in VRML [message #13591 is a reply to message #13585 ] Fri, 11 June 2010 11:39 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar virtox  is currently offline virtox
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I'd be happy to take a look at problem files today Smile
Just send me a pm or post the file (including textures if applicable) here, and I'll see if I can find anything.


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Re: Manifold problems in VRML [message #13598 is a reply to message #13487 ] Fri, 11 June 2010 12:31 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar deltares  is currently offline deltares
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Hi virtox,

Well, if you are up for a real challenge Wink. What kind of format would you want? I'll be spending my weekend on trying to fix this issue, since the deadline is getting me too close. Sad
Re: Manifold problems in VRML [message #13599 is a reply to message #13598 ] Fri, 11 June 2010 12:42 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar EricvanStraaten  is currently offline EricvanStraaten
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I did a texture test with Netfabb and even without 'touching' the model and just opening a texturized x3d and than exporting it as x3d, Netfabb 'throws away' the texture (or the UV-maps). So using Netfabb isn't an option after applying textures. I used Netfabb Basic, I don't know about the Professional version).

[Updated on: Fri, 11 June 2010 12:43 UTC]


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Re: Manifold problems in VRML [message #13608 is a reply to message #13585 ] Fri, 11 June 2010 17:19 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar EricvanStraaten  is currently offline EricvanStraaten
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Yes, i think the scaling issue in OBJ-based programs is the only thing that makes things go wrong. When I upload a stl, there's nothing wrong . When I upload a x3d, made in Netfabb by scaling it down a thousand times, everything is ok. But when I use a program that you use to paint your model (and this is the case with Carrara, ZBrush and Modo, to name a few not to exotic names) and try to scale and export as a vmrl, you get a manifold error. Anyone know of a prgram that does this correctly (Maya? Max? Blender? or something else?)


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Re: Manifold problems in VRML [message #13609 is a reply to message #13487 ] Fri, 11 June 2010 17:29 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar EricvanStraaten  is currently offline EricvanStraaten
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Just a wild thought: Is there perhaps a way to manually put in another size in the vmrl (since you can open it in a notepad)?


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Re: Manifold problems in VRML [message #13610 is a reply to message #13487 ] Fri, 11 June 2010 17:45 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar deltares  is currently offline deltares
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There is a "Scale" keyword in the root of the transform. It won't help you though. I've tried scaling our object to be huge, and use a factor of 0.0001 to make it "small" again (shapeways picks up that value), hoping to fix floating point issues. No use. We use 3DS Max btw to export VRML, but I've been using meshlab / NetFabb as well.

I could not get Accutrans (30 days full feature trial) to export a proper formatted VRML file, could you possibly try that too EyeDoll? It's one of the tools mentioned on the FAQ or blog somewhere. The installation might require one certain fix from Microsoft to be installed (an OCX file).

Also, I cannot resize my model in Meshlab, it will just crash the program.

Hope that one of us can find a solution Smile.
Re: Manifold problems in VRML [message #13613 is a reply to message #13610 ] Fri, 11 June 2010 18:24 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar EricvanStraaten  is currently offline EricvanStraaten
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Accutrans works with me and at the output you can give in a scale size, but.... with standard settings the wrl isn't recognized by Shapeways. Do you know how that works?

Greetings, Eric


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Re: Manifold problems in VRML [message #13614 is a reply to message #13613 ] Fri, 11 June 2010 19:29 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar deltares  is currently offline deltares
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My problem exactly, hoped that you could see a solution. But I've copied and pasted the blocks from a "correct" VRML, but it would still give problems I believe, manifold again. I've spent quite some days on this issue and the only solution is to reduce detail or something. I do not know any other fix for the moment.
Re: Manifold problems in VRML [message #13615 is a reply to message #13487 ] Fri, 11 June 2010 19:52 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar deltares  is currently offline deltares
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Actually, if you click on the name of the error list, there is the error displaying tool of Shapeways. I could not find anything red, until I zoomed in just through the floor, there I saw a few poly's being red. probably a piece of geometry which is normally _very_ close to another plane but wasn't properly boolean'd by Max and causing these issues. Now I wonder if I can fix it through remote desktop on my work.

Also a tip for shapeways.. make the zoom steps smaller in that applet Smile. Like adding extra buttons similar to rotation, but then for moving. Smile
Re: Manifold problems in VRML [message #13617 is a reply to message #13487 ] Fri, 11 June 2010 20:45 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar EricvanStraaten  is currently offline EricvanStraaten
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Ok, I've managed to rescale a model in Accutrans export in x3d, import it in Meshlab, export it as x3d and... manifold problems! Also tried scaling in Meshlab (which says it scales, but doesn't). I give up!

For those who don't believe that my models can be converted in errorless vmrl's: I've managed to get a x3d and wrl accepted by Meshlab, but with no color (due to Netfabb) so this is no use whatsoever.


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Re: Manifold problems in VRML [message #13632 is a reply to message #13487 ] Sat, 12 June 2010 17:48 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar deltares  is currently offline deltares
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Well, as described here:

http://www.shapeways.com/forum/index.php?t=msg&S=3791200 b0e24aa07a7f9e8e9293bce75&th=2144&goto=10558#msg_105 58

It is a common issue to lose UV information when fixing problems. I guess we are getting out of luck. I still do not have a solution either.
Re: Manifold problems in VRML [message #13642 is a reply to message #13487 ] Sun, 13 June 2010 09:45 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar deltares  is currently offline deltares
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Just tried once more to spent some hours on it.

First went from AccuTrans ("The model is water tight!") to VRML, manually corrected the badly VRML structure so that MeshLab accepts it. Exported from MeshLab to STL, opened in Netfabb. No problems.

Resized mesh 10% smaller, still no problems, repeated for a while.

Now it's on the good size, and once again errors. from 0 holes to 177 holes in NetFabb. Sad
Re: Manifold problems in VRML [message #13646 is a reply to message #13487 ] Sun, 13 June 2010 11:46 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar EricvanStraaten  is currently offline EricvanStraaten
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Tried something which I haven't tried before:opened a by Netfabb fixed stl in Magics, scaled it and exported it to wrl.... manifold problems! So even a fixed stl gets 'corrupted' by the scaling in a top of the bill program! I think the only solution is to leave this scaling out of the equation without making the object to big to print. Maybe Shapeways can set some parameters divided by a thousand in their handling of vrml's?


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Re: Manifold problems in VRML [message #13666 is a reply to message #13487 ] Mon, 14 June 2010 17:18 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar deltares  is currently offline deltares
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Our 3d modeller has been fixing the errors manually, by continously comparing the model in Netfabb and solving the issues which Netfabb reports.

Now the model should hopefully be perfect, since there is no time left anymore to work on it. I cross my fingers that this one actually is produced on time. Embarassed
Re: Manifold problems in VRML [message #13671 is a reply to message #13487 ] Mon, 14 June 2010 18:32 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar akeno  is currently offline akeno
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Hi guys
that thread is a bit out dated
check out my magics tutorial

http://www.shapeways.com/tutorials/fixing_maya_full_color_vr ml_with_magics
Re: Manifold problems in VRML [message #13674 is a reply to message #13487 ] Mon, 14 June 2010 19:32 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar EricvanStraaten  is currently offline EricvanStraaten
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Maybe for some models this will work, but amongst others I've tested the workflow Magics->wrl and with my models (and even if they are 'error free'), it always produces manifold-problems. I arrive at my models with a lot of boolean operations and shrinkwrapping the endresult. Apparently these kinds of models just aren't 'accepted' by the Shapeways evaluator. The only way you can produce a model without manifold-problems is via Netfabb, throwing away all UV-data, so you end up with a blank model!


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Re: Manifold problems in VRML [message #13682 is a reply to message #13674 ] Tue, 15 June 2010 00:38 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar akeno  is currently offline akeno
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I've used my method for over 20 different colored uploads done at various dates including when 3D printing was brand new at high polygon rate of over 5mil WITH reducing so you are probably doing something wrong in my tutorial or arent using the other tools that are properly integrated with magics such as the slice, triangle selection, etc tools. You might have to manually patch up some pieces that entirely just need to be replaced if you do it manually.. but my process is all automatic. Milkshape 3D is a critical step for 3ds file format into magics.

[Updated on: Tue, 15 June 2010 00:39 UTC]

Re: Manifold problems in VRML [message #13689 is a reply to message #13487 ] Tue, 15 June 2010 08:01 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar EricvanStraaten  is currently offline EricvanStraaten
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Sure I'm doing something wrong (i'm relying on the shrinkwrapping in Magics to fix my files). I know that this almost always produces errors (but removes even more), in all my models there are on average about a hundred overlapping triangles and some intersected. These 'remaining' errors cant't be fixed in Magics (any attempt to do things like automatic fixing a shrinkwrapped part makes things worse). Maybe by hand it's doable, but I'm lazy Rolling Eyes

But my point is that these errors don't show up as manifold errors when I upload a stl, but they do when I upload a wrl! I think this is strange, You can use a stl to order a 'Sandstone' figure, but you can't use a wrl (based on exactly the same stl) to order a full colored one.


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Re: Manifold problems in VRML [message #13690 is a reply to message #13614 ] Tue, 15 June 2010 08:56 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar EricvanStraaten  is currently offline EricvanStraaten
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Accutrans is described here:

http://www.shapeways.com/tutorials/converting-with-accutrans -3d


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Re: Manifold problems in VRML [message #13707 is a reply to message #13690 ] Tue, 15 June 2010 16:24 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar deltares  is currently offline deltares
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Yes, but it does not mention the VRML output, which is not correct. Try exporting an Accutrans VRML and opening it in Meshlab, it won't work Smile.
Re: Manifold problems in VRML [message #13724 is a reply to message #13689 ] Wed, 16 June 2010 01:08 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar akeno  is currently offline akeno
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Quote:


But my point is that these errors don't show up as manifold errors when I upload a stl, but they do when I upload a wrl! I think this is strange, You can use a stl to order a 'Sandstone' figure, but you can't use a wrl (based on exactly the same stl) to order a full colored one.



You have to understand this happens because of how x3d wrl and 3ds scale stuff in comparison to STL. STL is not in small point like the other formulas can be, its not a problem with shapeways, but with the file format itself.. so you either have to do it a working way or don't, there isnt a fix to that because of the language it was written and how it works and isnt a problem of shapeways. Because the points are so small sometimes they are mistaken for manifold errors when indeed they are not. Which is why my tutorial exists here.

[Updated on: Wed, 16 June 2010 01:09 UTC]

Re: Manifold problems in VRML [message #13727 is a reply to message #13487 ] Wed, 16 June 2010 04:23 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar GHP  is currently offline GHP
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Actually, Shapeways could allow users to override the units for VRML and X3D (as has been suggested previously). Also, I believe there is no reason that even small numbers cannot be written out in these files with great precision, but it doesn't matter, because Shapeways doesn't seem to use high precision when eliminating duplicates (and near duplicates). Assuming they are using a high-precision variable to store the numbers, they could simply check whether the numbers are actually different, but possibly this causes problems with the software that handles the printing.
Re: Manifold problems in VRML [message #13729 is a reply to message #13724 ] Wed, 16 June 2010 06:44 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar EricvanStraaten  is currently offline EricvanStraaten
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Your tutorial is insightfull but doesn't work with my models. Don't know why but it just doesn't.


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Re: Manifold problems in VRML [message #13772 is a reply to message #13729 ] Thu, 17 June 2010 19:39 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar charly99  is currently offline charly99
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you are really discussing "big" problems.
netfabb is working on that issue, but it is not really simple.
Just a simple question:
If you change the mesh by fixing the file (make it watertight and manifold), how should the texture be (whatertight Very Happy or manifold Laughing )

btw the free Version can not repair all errors which are repaired by the Professional version. Customers of the Professional version can set priorities by reporting problems to support@netfabb.com
Re: Manifold problems in VRML [message #13774 is a reply to message #13487 ] Thu, 17 June 2010 19:56 UTC Go to previous messageGo to previous message
avatar EricvanStraaten  is currently offline EricvanStraaten
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Yeah, I don't know about the texture (sorry). Actually I've given up on the color in Shapeways and just yesterday uploaded the same colored stl to a competing platform... and they've allready sent it to the printer! So it can be done! Good luck to you all...


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