Wrong prices on shop page!

Discussion in 'Bug Reporting' started by Bunrattypark, Apr 14, 2011.

  1. Bunrattypark
    Bunrattypark New Member
    When I opened my shop homepage tonight, before logging in, I was horrified to see the wrong prices appear on my models!

    I quickly logged in, and lo and behold, the prices appeared right. So I logged out again, and the wrong prices appeared again! They appeared to be the cost price minus markup.

    Does this mean that if anyone ordered my models, and saw those prices I saw, that they will be charged cost price, and I will get no markup? I cannot afford to be at such a loss.

    This is a fundamental error, and will undermine confidence in the service. I will be watching my prices carefully every evening now, to make sure the correct prices are displayed. Please allay my fears...
  2. Bunrattypark
    Bunrattypark New Member
    Ok the price settled down to normal, but then I cleared my cache, and when I reopened the shop page, the wrong prices appeared again!

    It is not the price minus markup. It appears to be an arbitrary figure somewhere slightly above cost price, that bears no relation to anything.

    I am really worried about this, if I advertise these at a set price, and then a different price appears on my shop page, I look like an ass, and lose money. I'd love to know what is happening that causes this anomaly.

    Many thanks.
  3. bitstoatoms
    bitstoatoms Member
    Eeeek, I will pass this on to the developers right away..

    Thanks for letting us know.
  4. Magic
    Magic Well-Known Member
    You are in Euorpe, right?
    Did you check f it was the VAT?
    Basically, depending if you are in Europe or not the VAT (Tax on Added Value) appears of not. For Shapeways it is 19%.
    So basically when you are logged on you can see the prices excluding the markup but including the VAT (in particular on the top right of a product page).
    When you are logged off, if you do not specify your country you can see the prices including your markup excluding the VAT and if you specify your country you can see the prices including both your markup and the VAT.
    Simple, isn't it?
  5. stop4stuff
    stop4stuff Well-Known Member
    Here's what I think is happening...

    Euro Zone (EU) = price inc 19% Netherlands VAT
    Rest of World (ROW) = price

    When not logged in and with a clear cache, Shapeways (SW) website doesn't know what country you're in and reverts to ROW price. This is also true for a model with markup.


    SW price $10
    Markup = $2.00

    ROW price = $12.00
    Your (EU) price = $11.90
    EU price (inc your markup) = $14.28

    Its always worth dividing the logged in price by 1.19 to see if that figure is anywhere near what you see in the non-logged in shop price ;)

    Obviously the above may be totally useless if there really is something amis with shop pricing.

  6. kontor_apart
    kontor_apart New Member
    Sounds like this "feature".

    Yes, it makes you look stupid, has been said many times, and shares the fate of most other forum suggestions.

  7. bitstoatoms
    bitstoatoms Member
    Hi All,

    So the pricing structure is too complex?

    Do you think it would be better to see the VAT calculated at the end of the checkout process, or would this be seen as a hidden cost?

    Do you think it should just be in US Dollars as this is where the majority of the Shapeways buyers originate? Or would you only want to see the pricing for your region?

    Any suggestions are taken on board, they can not often be instantly implemented, but all are considered against our development road map...

    You will see constant changes over the coming months as we fine tune the process. Please do continue to let us know of any issues you come across.

    We may also get in touch with you to personally discuss how we can improve the user experience..

  8. stop4stuff
    stop4stuff Well-Known Member
    Hi Daunn,

    I think the main reason for the confusion within the pricing structure is people from EU member countries pay Netherlands VAT, the rest of the world doesn't... but then us people within the EU don't pay customs duties or import taxes.

    VAT should be shown as part of the price to those whole need to pay it.

    Monetary unit for sales should be in whatever currency Shapeways deals in - this way there are no hidden conversion surprises (personally I pay in whichever gives the best deal against our Great Britsh Pound, usually $ :))

    Maybe you could have a blog entry or a tutorial explaining all the ins and outs of the pricing shown on the Shapeways website - issues on confused pricing do crop up quite frequently and mainly relate to EU (VAT added) and rest of world pricing - When logged in, a simple pricing info box on model pages would probably suffice to explain most discrepancies.


  9. Bunrattypark
    Bunrattypark New Member
    All I want is for one price to appear, and to know that whatever appears, my customers are all charged the correct price. €6.39 would appear to be the VAT charge, though I would prefer if my customers weren't presented with an ex VAT price beforehand, lulling them into thinking the model is cheaper than it actually is. I still wish I could standardise on the Euro, and be rid of those dollar prices altogether.

    There does seem to be a lot of buggy issues with the site, long lags when saving changes, etc. Surely it need not be so complex?
    Last edited: Apr 15, 2011
  10. stop4stuff
    stop4stuff Well-Known Member
    The 'wrong' price is as near as makes no difference your cost price plus your markup without any VAT added - this is the correct price to those who are not in an EU member country, i.e. the Rest Of the World (ROW) - and as 'most of SHapeways purchasers are in the USA', this is the correct price for them... us EUers are so special that we get the full price we have to pay show to us when logged in... don't forget, ROW may also have to pay import duties & UPS surcharges.
  11. Magic
    Magic Well-Known Member
    I don't think this should be consider as a bug.
    You can see at the right of the prices the mention "(EXCL VAT)" or "(INCL VAT)" and the fact that the flag is present or not indicates if the website knows if you are in Europe or not.
    Out of Europe customers pays $47.53:
    - $35.64 (Shapeways price)
    - $11.89 (your markup)
    You pays $42.41:
    - $35.63 (Shapeways price)
    - $6.77 (VAT on Shapeways price)
    Europe customers pay $56.56
    - $35.64 (Shapeways price)
    - $6.77 (VAT on Shapeways price)
    - $11.89 (your markup)
    - $2.26 (VAT on your markup)

    The price are different, just because the prices are not the same for everybody: all your customers pay the markup, you don't, the ones in Europe pays VAT, the others don't. You cannot avoid or hide this complexity. But Shapeways should be able to give some sort of control.

    For me there are 2 problems:
    - once logged you cannot see the page as your customers do
    - you should be able to adjust your markup excluding VAT even if you are in Europe if your customers are in the US (I guess it is not your case)

    Ideally, one toggle button "Show VAT"/"Hide VAT" could be a good beginning...
    Last edited: Apr 15, 2011
  12. kontor_apart
    kontor_apart New Member
    I am very sorry, but this price mechanism is completely screwed. If you don't believe, and as a EU shop owner, try to set any your items to

    USD 19.95 (ex. VAT) - just for the not-logged-in-potential-customer.

    I promise you, it will drive you absolutely crazy and you will have to log in and out about half a dozen times.

    (Apart from the simple fact that there is nobody in the world who would ever be interested in USD prices incl. VAT)

  13. stop4stuff
    stop4stuff Well-Known Member
    That's just a simple exercise in maths.

    Say, my item costs (to me inc 19% vat) $13.58
    nett price excluding vat is $13.58/1.19 = $11.41
    Target price is $19.95, therefore we do the sum 19.95-11.41 = 8.54 to give us the ex vat markup value of $8.54

    All done on the fly whilst typing this response ;)

  14. kontor_apart
    kontor_apart New Member
    can't say it any better than :
  15. Magic
    Magic Well-Known Member
    Yes, I just said that those different prices were not bugs, but I totally agree that setting the markup is a mess (stop4stuff the method you describe works but for tens of models in tens of materials it is definively too long, knowing that we are in front of a computer that should do all the repetitive and uninteresting tasks for us).

    Personally, I set the markup to have "round" ($x.99) prices in $ including markup, just because it is easier. But as Trompevenlo mentionned, this is quite stupid since there is probably no customer that can see those prices.
    My customers are mainly in the US, so I need to type the final price in $ excluding VAT and the markup should be automatically calculated accordingly.
    Last edited: Apr 15, 2011
  16. stop4stuff
    stop4stuff Well-Known Member
    One set sale price for the EU market (inc vat) and one set sale price for ROW market, both per material and software takes care of the markup... is that the vibe I'm feeling?

    (not that I'm anything in Shapeways - just interpreting the info ;))

  17. Bunrattypark
    Bunrattypark New Member
    I understand now why the prices display as they do. But I have been wading through this site every day for months now, preparing my shop and my products. If I, as familiar as I am with the site, have difficulty with the appearance of some items, then what does the casual browser, who happens upon the site, or who has been directed here by me, think of it all?

    Some of my customers are not computer savvy people, it is enough to get them to open the site at all, and insert their credit card details, without bamboozling them with an array of different pricing structures, with VAT and ex VAT in tiny letters, and a banner asking you your country of origin, that can be easily missed. It must be as simple and as straightforward as possible. Not for ME, a regular on this site, but for the occasional visitors who I might invite along.

    If I see a can of beans in the supermarket, I want to see the price I pay at the checkout. I don't want to search the shelf for tiny notices telling me the VAT price, or the ex VAT price, or the cost in dollars. I want to see the final price, and I don't want to arrive at the checkout and have the sales girl humiliate me by telling me it's not that price at all, it's another price.

    I love the Shapeways process, it suits me down to a tee. I hope to bring quite a lot of custom here, I have had a very large number of expressions of interest in my models. But I have to say, the whole pricing thing is a mess, and even if it makes sense when described in detail, it LOOKS a mess, especially to the casual observer, who might simply shrug their shoulders and not bother to figure out how to make a purchase. I am bringing a lot of viewers here, some of whom I hope will buy my products. I don't need an ill designed or badly arranged pricing display to turn them away before they figure it out.
  18. stop4stuff
    stop4stuff Well-Known Member
    What Shapeways does is show a global audience, global prices. It is up to the user to enter their country to get the right price.

    Taking your supermarket analogy, did you know that if a non-EU visitor buys a product that has VAT added from a store in a EU country, they can claim the VAT back on exit of the country?

    Also check out ebay pricing policies... no different from Shapeways, just less transparent because you must be logged in to buy.

    And don't forget that if your US customer spends $xxx with Shapeways, the chances are that they will then have to pay customs duty along with UPS surcharges and local taxes on top of that!

    Welcome to the (complicated) world of international trading.