Road To Major Fud Improvements Starts With Repricing

Discussion in 'Official Announcements' started by Andrewsimonthomas, May 9, 2017.

  1. Andrewsimonthomas
    Andrewsimonthomas Shapeways Employee Community Team
    FUD Repricing is now Live!
    There is no need to re-upload your models to see the new prices.

    Heads up, scale modelers and miniatures makers!

    We have some big news about our Frosted Ultra Detail (FUD) family: Starting the week of May 22, we’ll be rolling out a new pricing structure for FUD, followed by a new Ready to Paint finish, then a way for you to control the 3D print orientation.

    These changes will make your products more affordable and easier to paint, while giving you greater control over the quality of your prints by empowering you to choose the way your models are oriented in the printer. Today, we’ll provide you with all the details on the pricing changes, and we’ll be rolling out more on Ready to Paint and 3D print orientation options in the coming weeks.

    Beginning the week of May 22, 70% of products printed in FUD will become cheaper! Another 10% will remain the at current price, and for 20%, the price will increase. Your markups will not change.

    Here are the three major benefits you’ll see:

    1. You’ll start with lower prices, in response to your incredible creativity in the smallest scales (we’re halving the $5 startup cost, a win for t- and z-scale modelers)

    2. Lower-cost HO-scale and 28mm products, to better enable our biggest scale model community (we’re trimming your material cost, making bigger, denser products less expensive)

    3. Fairer pricing overall, achieved by aligning pricing with our production cost
      (we’re moving on from the current, simple pricing structure that doesn’t take into account all the elements that actually affect the cost)
    To reach these goals, the upcoming pricing structure introduces three new cost elements: Per Part, Support Material and Machine Space—in addition to the current Startup and Model Material costs, which will become considerably cheaper. Adding these components gives you greater control over price and quality. This pricing structure also lays the groundwork for you to control the 3D printing orientation (more about this in near future).

    At upload, our 3D model processing will automatically calculate the cheapest orientation for your model. Along with the vast majority of products, designs that take up less space, and those that require less support material during 3D printing, will become cheaper. For further tips on optimizing your designs for cheaper printing in FUD, read this tutorial.

    You’re probably familiar with our existing price structure, which has a $5 per-file fee, plus a cost per cubic centimeter. Our new pricing structure lowers those costs, and provides more transparency into what determines your cost:

    [​IMG]

    Startup Fee

    The startup fee applies to every 3D model and covers the labor involved with processing each order and 3D print, including checking your model for printability, post-processing your product, and quality checking before shipping.

    Per Part Fee

    There is also manual work associated with each part within your 3D model that includes:
    • Planning the 3D print build. Each part is placed separately on the build platform.

    • Sorting the parts after 3D printing and post processing. Sorting is manual work where our 3D printing engineers make sure all the parts are there, check their quality and pack them in your order.
    The vast majority of 3D models in Shapeways have a single part. We found that we are overcharging these models to compensate for the models that had many–sometimes hundreds–parts in them. By introducing a startup and per-part fees, we are able to lower the startup cost for the single part models and price every 3D print fairly.

    Model material

    The model material is the cost of the material used that to build your product. This cost is significantly lowered in the new price structure, enabling you to design thicker and more durable products. This will also make sprueing parts affordable way to reduce price.

    Support material

    [​IMG]

    Support material is the wax that’s used to secure your model to the build platform and support negative angles and overhangs. The wax is melted away after 3D printing, but cannot be re-used. Some designs need a lot more support material than others. When your model is uploaded and automatically oriented for minimum price, the amount of support material needed and the corresponding price will be calculated.

    With the launch of the new FUD pricing, 3D tools will introduce a support material visualization that shows how support material applies to your design.

    Machine Space

    The machine space is the footprint and the height of your model. This indicates how much space your model occupies in the 3D printer and how long it will take to print. To make our industrial grade 3D printing affordable to everyone, we pack as many models in the 3D print as we can.

    The machine space is slightly differently for FUD than for Strong and Flexible Plastic due to differences in 3D printing technologies. Since FUD is produced by building up material from a build tray, all the models are planned on this 2D surface, where in Strong & Flexible models are planned in 3D space.

    You can think of your model’s footprint as the shadow of your model when a light is placed directly above it. For models that have openings where parts can be planned inside, you will not be charged for that space since we can plan other parts in that space. Note, however, spaces that you may assume can fit parts inside may, in reality, be filled with support material. There will also be a “halo” calculated around the footprint since we cannot place parts directly in contact with one another.

    The height of your model dictates how long it will take to print. As you can assume, the taller the model, the longer the build time. Additionally, as the height of your model increases, the packing density in the z-plane reduces. For these reasons, height is weighed more heavily than footprint in our machine space price. But, don’t worry, we will automatically orient your model so the tallest axis is oriented in the x-y plane.

    ---

    These changes will make pricing more fair by charging you more accurately for what you’re using. An upcoming expansion of finishing and print orientation options will complete this round of major improvements to the FUD family of materials. But, we’ll continue evolving our material offerings and coming up with new ways to meet your needs. We know that any price changes can be scary, but we hope that you’ll enjoy (and make the most of) having greater control over your costs.

    Examples of changed prices (provided by Stony Smith Design’s):

    ArroWedge Container Load - HOscale
    https://www.shapeways.com/product/LF83JXZEM/
    $82.92 → $66.28

    Bucyrus WB150B Crane - Nscale

    https://www.shapeways.com/product/6FP4RQTW8/
    $44.52 → $22.51

    Carousel - Zscale

    https://www.shapeways.com/product/PSGJQJ8JY/
    $15.10 → $10.90

    Flatcar Load - Fraction Tower - Nscale

    https://www.shapeways.com/product/Y6YH9ZX6S/
    $22.02 → $40.68

    EDIT: New pricing image added May 16th
     
    Last edited: May 24, 2017
    Saranova and Model_Monkey like this.
  2. Andrewsimonthomas
    Andrewsimonthomas Shapeways Employee Community Team
    FAQ


    Which of the FUD changes is happening first?
    First, we’ll launch our price changes the week of May 22.

    Next, we’ll launch the full maker pilot for Ready to Paint FUD. This is the new finishing option discussed above.

    Then, we’ll launch the tools allowing you to set the orientation of your model in the print build.

    Will I have to update my model file because of this new pricing structure?
    Probably not. Our research shows that 70% of products will drop in price, and 10% will stay relatively the same. This being said, there may be opportunities to optimize the price and quality of parts by making adjustments to the model file. See this tutorial for some tips on creating cheaper-to-print models.

    When will new prices go into effect?
    The week of May 22, exact date to be announced.

    What will happen to printability of new parts?

    If you update a model file, its printability will reset, as per usual.

    How will I know if my products have changed price?
    We’ll show you as soon as the price changes go live. When the new prices go into effect, we’ll provide you a CSV that lists both the old and new prices so you can compare.

    What will happen to my shop owner markup to products in my shop?
    Your markup on products will remain the same, so you may wish to adjust your markups if you would like the prices in your shop to return to their previous prices after the pricing change.


    How can I change my markup?
    Manually, or with the CSV uploader tool (that very soon will support variants!).

    I have a large inventory, it will take me a lot of time to update the models.
    We know many of you have made huge investments into your shops and created incredible catalogs of unique products. We understand that a change like this can be frustrating and require a lot of time to optimize for. And that it would be nice to have more time to make adjustments.

    We understand your situation and want you to know that we take a change like this very, very seriously. This change is sudden, but the new prices will create exciting opportunities and unlock new avenues for scale model hobbyists and sellers. Both in the features this pricing enables, and the types of products people can now create.
     
    Last edited: May 9, 2017
    Model_Monkey likes this.
  3. stonysmith
    stonysmith Well-Known Member Moderator
    I am glad to see the price come more in line with the costs.

    Of the 160 or so models in my shop that have sold in the last year, the bulk of them go down in cost, and of those that go up in cost, the price change averages around $5, which may not make them too costly. Only two models out of the 160 will go up in price enough that I will have to consider re-designing them.

    One of the worst is obviously the Fraction Tower above, but it's never sold.
    The one that's going to be the most trouble is my Nscale 737.

    I have yet to figure out a "good way" to slice this model to make it shorter in the Z dimension.

    But, overall, I believe this will be a good change.

    https://www.shapeways.com/product/WKU8AQ8U8/boeing-737-parts-for-flatcar-nscale
    [​IMG]
     
    Model_Monkey and bgeorgakas like this.
  4. sbhunterca
    sbhunterca Well-Known Member
    Yes!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Thank you, Shapeways!

    Hoping for the best with my models... but it definitely sounds promising!

    :)

    Steve Hunter
     
    Andrewsimonthomas likes this.
  5. patmat2350
    patmat2350 Well-Known Member
    OK, I recognize the difficulty in picking up multiple loose pieces and getting them all into the right order bin, so the loose pieces charge is clearly fair... but how about recognizing linked (interlocking) parts that have multiple "shells"? Like my anchor chain, which has only a couple cc's of material, comes out of the printer in one connected length, but which consists of hundreds of shells?
     
    CNR5529 likes this.
  6. patmat2350
    patmat2350 Well-Known Member
    And, can we get an up-front confirmation or visualization of the orientation selected by your algorithm? Pls/thx.
     
  7. NimlothCQ
    NimlothCQ Shapeways Employee Product Team
    Yes. We will have a support material visualization that uses the cheapest detected orientation. Further, after the release of new pricing, we will follow up with custom user-set print orientation for FUD materials that can be viewed in the support material viz viewer :)
     
  8. stonysmith
    stonysmith Well-Known Member Moderator
    Those are not PARTS. Parts are shells that are NOT interconnected. Interconnected shells will use the same algorithm that they use today. Look at 3dTools, and you'll see the PART count.

    There may be a bit of a penalty for machine space, but intelligent packing of the chain should eliminate that problem.
     
    orange3D likes this.
  9. patmat2350
    patmat2350 Well-Known Member
    And right you are! Hundreds of shells, one "part".


    parts.JPG
     
    orange3D likes this.
  10. HenrikRydberg
    HenrikRydberg Shapeways Employee Design Team
    Yea. Our model processing recognizes between loose shells (separate parts) and interlocking shells (loose section of the same part). The per-part pricing applies to only those parts that come out of the 3D printer as separate blobs of material.
     
    Model_Monkey likes this.
  11. MichaelAtOz
    MichaelAtOz Well-Known Member
    I've yet to do FUD (apart from the Fear, Uncertainty Doubt type), so I'm not affected, but having seen the impact of the 2014 S&F pricing change I offer sympathy.

    Try to get past the Denial stage ASAP is all I can suggest.

    Looks like @HOLDEN8702 was prescient; from the S&F price rise thread (pg 44)
    I only tripped over this announcement as I was browsing the forum, not something I do too often. Presumably an email is being prepared. Remember there were plenty of people who got caught short with the S&F change.

    Perhaps someone could summarise the sprue/loop/[cage - tho I presume the top of a cage would cost in support] discussions from the S&F price thread.

    Also disclose early if there is something similar to the 40mm sphere for machine space cost.

    As others will now have to go thru this, I'll repeat my previous comment re SFP price change
    "Could you eventually have a view where the labour$ material-volume$ & machine-volume$ are shown static, instead of having to hover, and only be able to see one at a time." it is painful to have to hover, and difficult to select/copy, at least make the pop-up not disappear when the cursor is within the pop-up.

    & note @stonysmith 's reply "I'd like to see the machine-volume and part-count added to the CSV. And a couple dozen other columns. <grin>"
     
    Last edited: May 10, 2017
  12. stonysmith
    stonysmith Well-Known Member Moderator
    My understanding is no. This pricing model is different due to the support material. With WSF, there is the option to pack items inside of each other and not affect the surface quality. FUD on the other hand tends to be printed "flat" - not packed for maximum density, but spread out so as to minimize the wasted support material. Also, if one item is printed above (or within) another, then the "good" surface on the lower item would have to be covered in support material - ruining the finish.
     
  13. MrNibbles
    MrNibbles Well-Known Member
    Would it make sense to be able to request support material be applied to the top "good surface" just to get a more consistent finish on the entire print? Way, way, way back when I did an FD print that had all the properties of Batman's Two-Face with one nice clear side and one completely frosted. Can't say I've had much appetite to try any frosted detail since then. Maybe another option is to post process the prints with chemicals or physical abrasion. Just wondering out loud, although actually quietly, since I'm typing.
     
    00dwkr likes this.
  14. MichaelAtOz
    MichaelAtOz Well-Known Member
    I just checked my spam etc, then my Shapeways settings. Seems Forum 'Watch' don't send an email for new topics, just replies. Nor other people posts to the thread. I get alerts, but if I'm not actively using the site, I see nothing.
    I checked, I am watching "Official Announcements (New Threads, Alerts, Emails)" but I did not get an email when the topic was created.
    So i presume MOST PEOPLE ARE UNAWARE OF THIS ANNOUNCEMENT!
     
    taz_of_boyds and Penrhos1920 like this.
  15. dentist0815
    dentist0815 New Member
    Please give me an exsample with the new price for an order with multiple parts .

    take this:
    http://shpws.me/NJJc

    Thanks
     
  16. Anyuta3D
    Anyuta3D Well-Known Member
    You can call me growler if you like, but despite Andrewsimonthomas’s reassuring words for FUD prices drop, I have the feeling that many of us will face unpleasant surprises after 22nd May. I fully understand that Shapeways attempts to turn a pigs ear to silk purse, but when the new price changes will be launched, we’ll find ourselves paying mostly for (recyclable?) wax and not for actual plastic anymore.

    To make things more complicated, Shapeways advices HERE to “…cut big, hollow parts in half with open areas face upward…”, without first having solved the problem appeared on many FUD parts with crystals and rough surface right on the areas where the supporting wax is applyied. In other words, if for example stonysmith would like to reduce the cost of his forementioned Nscale 737 model, he should cut lengthwise (!!!) the nicely round and shinny fuselage, turn it upside down "...with open areas face upward...", resulting later rough or crystalized surface where the supporting wax will be applied. Well done Shapeways! Trying to reduce prices, you'll make the FUD surfaces become even more rough and lose the so-called shiny look.

    As final, can someone enlighten me if for example we like to build the sample object pictured in following screenshots, where the supporting wax will be added?

    • As pictured on "option #1" screenshot. supporting only under the horizontal parts "footprint" (which btw could be 0.6mm thick only) or
    • As seen on "option #2" screenshot (filling all the cube volume)?
    Regards,
    Anyuta 3D


    edit mod: please keep text formatting the same as the rest of the page

    [​IMG]
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    [​IMG]
     

    Attached Files:

    Last edited by a moderator: May 10, 2017
  17. MichaelAtOz
    MichaelAtOz Well-Known Member
  18. MitchellJetten
    MitchellJetten Shapeways Employee CS Team
    Michael, no that is resin like on our High Definition Acrylate material.
    On Frosted Ultra Detail it works differently.

    @Anyuta,
    Option 1 ;) note that there is also support material on the base.
    upload_2017-5-10_8-46-9.png
    Red being the support material (sorry, my model is not perfect, those small red squares shouldnt be there)


    So right now Stony's 737 will always have 1 rough side, that's just a fact due to the printing technique used for FUD.
    He is able to cut the 737 in 2 parts length wise and will be able (see the part about setting your own orientation in FUD):
    Option A: have a model with a shiny fuselage, this means the full inside of his model will be filled with support material. This means it will be more expensive but the outside part will be smooth as no support is touching it.

    Option B: have the model printed as a bathtub, this will be using the least amount of wax and Z height.
    Downside is that the outside of the fuselage is touching support material, the up side is that it will be a lot cheaper.

    So see it as a balance, you decide what works best for you.
    Also keep in mind that that the 737 is currently getting more expensive due to the inside being hollow and thus filled with support material which is currently not really calculated in the pricing structure in a fair way :)
     
  19. Anyuta3D
    Anyuta3D Well-Known Member
    @ MitchellJetten,

    You verify my concern for big changes (more expensive) in pricing. I am afraid that 3D printing a hollow petroleum 200 lt oil drum scale model miniature, would cost as much as the real one including the fuel.

    Regards,
    Anyuta 3D
     
    javelin98 likes this.
  20. MitchellJetten
    MitchellJetten Shapeways Employee CS Team
    Correct, unless you open the bottom (or top) so the inside doesn't need to be filled with support material.
    Please keep in mind that we are NOT able to reuse the wax material.