Paint On Frost Extrem Details Parts

Discussion in 'Finishing Techniques' started by fb292e0, Jan 20, 2017.

  1. Roolz
    Roolz Well-Known Member
    2 hours... Please... No wonder the parts are ruined.

    I recommend acetone for FUD/FXD parts, about 3 minutes.
    I cleaned dozens of parts and never had any problem, even on super-thin areas (~0.5mm). Never had any complaint either.
    Other products work too, but acetone is much faster and as efficient.

    Yeah sure :).
     
  2. Anyuta3D
    Anyuta3D Well-Known Member
    @ Roolz,

    As mentioned earlier, even rookies know that 3 sec exposure to acetone may harm the plastic (called styrene for your info) that injection molded scale models are made from. Same rules for FUD / FXD parts. Now, if you like to keep questioning professional scale modelers with 30+ years experience on hobby, IPMS awards Worlwide etc thats fine with me, but keep in mind that questioning simple and tested rules, doesn't make you look more reliable or wise in forum. You know, people say "...the idiot persists, the cunning tries to justify and the smart admits his mistakes...
    "

    Yeap! There is a name for this. They call it "beginner's luck". Anyway, feel free to use acetone - you may also drink it if you like but please do not try to play smart and "advice" others (possible new comers into scale modeling hobby) to use your harmful "techniques". Acetone is not harmful for plastic only - acetone vapors are dangerous for human health too. Do you understand it now? If so, please stop advicing acetone - there are people here reading your posts and may follow your example. Please, don't! Please! Really!
     
    Last edited: Mar 19, 2018
    Model_Monkey likes this.
  3. Model_Monkey
    Model_Monkey Well-Known Member
    Glad to hear you never had any complaint, Roolz. Good for you.

    Unfortunately, with several hundred sales per month, nearly all of them in FUD or FXD, some of my customers have not had that experience, especially those who unknowingly treated FUD or FXD like polystyrene.

    While you and I might use acetone for just a few minutes, customers might not understand how harmful acetone can be long-term. My customers are used to cleaning polystyrene parts by soaking for long periods in a variety of harsh cleaners, acetone among them. Several of my customers did just that, soaked their parts in acetone or Bestine not knowing any better, and ruined their very costly parts. They naturally attempted to clean acrylic FUD or FXD the same way that had been cleaning polystyrene for decades. But with FUD and FXD, their many years of experience with polystyrene is working against them.

    It is not fun for the customer or me as the vendor when I get a message from the customer saying he melted his $100 model soaking it overnight in acetone or Bestine because that's what he or she "always did before" or that's what he or she "read on the Shapeways forums". And he or she won't be buying any more 3D-printed models because of it.

    The bigger problem here is that some of my customers said that they saw designers here on Shapeways forums recommend using acetone, like you just did, Roolz. They followed that bad advice and ruined their parts. Then they expected me to take responsibility for that bad advice and give them a refund. I must agree with Anyuta: Please stop advising people to use a very toxic and harsh cleaner that has been shown repeatedly to damage FUD and FXD. That kind of advice has caused harm to customers.

    I feel it is a good, responsible practice as a vendor to educate my customers as best I can about products made from a material they are not accustomed to. Sure acetone can work. Dawn and Simple Green work too, and don't melt customer's models, even if left soaking overnight, and do not pose nearly as great a health risk. So those are the cleaners I recommend and why I do so. They're just plain safer.

    You have an interesting shop. Nice jewelry designs in metals. Best wishes.
     
    Last edited: Mar 19, 2018
  4. Roolz
    Roolz Well-Known Member
    Listen guys, you guessed it right:
    I'm an idiot, and a 15-year-old lucky beginner. I sell about 3 models a month.
    What saves me is that the handful of people who buy my FUD/FXD models are supremely clever, hence capable to read & remember the three words "approx. 3 minutes" (plus, they read the label and don't drink the product).
    So long.
     
  5. The_Old_Factory
    The_Old_Factory Well-Known Member
    "Good luck" to all of you who want to put paint on FED & FUD parts with the dreaded crystallization problem still unresolved by both Shapeways and 3DSystems after now more than 1 year.


    Anyone who listens to the self appointed chemistry experts here who think they found the magical solution for painting & cleaning FED & FUD parts without ending up with a mass of crystallization would be mistaken, because not even the chemist hired by Shapeways nor the chemical engineers of 3DSystems know the answer... and if 3DS have the answer they sure are not telling us, because I have yet to find a how-to guideline published by 3DSystems to explain how to do this & what products to use & which ones to avoid, & until we get that everyone else is just playing apprentice sorcerer. They may keep repeating that their special home-brew method works for them, but vested commercial interests apart, plenty of people have shown photos of crystals growing underneath painted FED & FUD parts too...


    So I would suggest people stop inducing unsuspecting customers in error and refrain from playing experts who know better than the chemical engineers of 3DSystems & their UV-curable acrylates manufacturer, because if & when clients decide to eventually launch lawsuits for defective material and or false advertising, I think the wisest course of action would be to stop giving out information that is not based on any accurate technical information & that could cause problems with their 3D printed part (crystallization) & to refrain from giving out paint & cleaning advice on these materials. Even the name of the chemical company making MJM UV-curable acrylates for 3DSystems & which Shapeways sells under the names FED and FUD is not known, and 3DSystems sure is not sharing that information with us...


    So let's stop giving non-accurate 'expert' advice on paint until the real experts at 3DSystems tell us what is safe and what isn't. How about WE all start emailing 3DS for answers ? That would make a lot more sense than staying here for 1 year & giving out 'advice' which is ill advised and totally unscientific as NO store owners or modelers know what is the exact chemical content of the MJM UV curable acrylate plastics from 3DS as that information is a trade secret. And even if we knew it still wouldn't help us as we are not molecular engineers: UV-curable use a complex 3 stage reaction (plus in the case of 3DS MJM materials there is wax that enter in the equation as well). So store owners are way over their head on this one.

    Please read my comments on the crystallization thread about potential sources of contamination. There's LOT more than what most people think.


    And as if to confirm what i just wrote, and I had wanted to write this since a long time: ever noticed that on the page for FED or FUD material Shapeways is showing what looks very clearly like a bottle of Testors red enamel paint ? (and other colors in the background). A type of paint that clients have already found out could cause crystallization to occur when applied to FED or FUD parts... (not the brand specifically, but enamels in general, most likely due to to the solvents they contain). So any SW clients who sees this & buys FED or FUD products & think that enamels are safe because they saw Shapeways display a photo of it on its own webpage may have a disagreeable surprise & may ruin their expensively 3D printed parts if the parts are from one of the batches that are somehow affected by the crystallization issue...


    I think Shapeways should remove that photo ASAP to avoid the risk of causing it's clients more problems. I have waited for nearly 1 year to see if they would pull out that photo, given the number of people having reported problems with enamel paint when used on FUD & FED parts, & given SW told us since now 1 year that there is a problem of crystallization with FED & FUD plastics, it is rather astonishing that they did not have the good sense to remove that picture to avoid giving the wrong idea to scale modelers.
     
    Last edited: Apr 19, 2018
  6. The_Old_Factory
    The_Old_Factory Well-Known Member
    You know i hope that FED & FUD and UV curable acrylates in general are incompatible with various type of metals. Given that the FED & FUD parts maybe not be 100% cured when clients receive them as you mention, that's another thing to watch for. I mentioned about this & many other incompatible materials & chemicals on the thread related to crystallization occurring on FED & FUD. Taken from PDF guidelines for UV curable acrylates from DSM and Stratasys (who at least have the good sense to give out detailled advice, though those PDF deal more with the plastics in their uncured state, at least give a good starting point to know many materials to avoid to reduce risks of contamination or cure inhibition).
     
    Last edited: Apr 19, 2018
  7. patmat2350
    patmat2350 Well-Known Member
    Umm, incompatible with metals? You're getting a bit far out on the limb there...

    The staining I mentioned was due to uncured resin leeching into the paint, and it was made more obvious by the fact that the neighboring paint on a brass part was unstained. That was my "a-ha!" moment which led to me post curing all my FUD... and which then allowed me to successfully use oil-based enamels on FUD ever since. Oh, and I only use water based cleaners as well.

    In the engine below, the largest parts are SLS nylon, but most smaller painted parts are FUD... except for the brass parts. The enamel paint is holding up just fine, directly on FUD, and on FUD touching metal.

    Now, I do wish that SW would explain the issue better rather than taking the advised approach of "say nothing and don't get in trouble". I especially wish that SW would explain why the frost comes on heavy after washing- it does seem to grow! But my other prep step is allowing it to grow, then laboriously scraping and sanding it all off prior to paint.


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  8. Model_Monkey
    Model_Monkey Well-Known Member
    The Old Factory,

    Why is this even an issue for you? Your store has 9 products, 7 of which are first to try, none of which are available in FUD/FXD. That's right, none.

    The sky is not falling.
     
  9. The_Old_Factory
    The_Old_Factory Well-Known Member
    Try this search :

    uv-curable Materials Safe HandlingGuide - Dsm

    It's a link for a PDF download by the resin maker DSM. I tried posting the link but it didn't work but you should find it easily with those search words. It is extremely informative and a real eye opener.

    I will try to get the link for the one from Stratasys.
     
  10. patmat2350
    patmat2350 Well-Known Member
    Last edited: Apr 19, 2018
  11. The_Old_Factory
    The_Old_Factory Well-Known Member
    It's very interesting in that it gives a list of incompatible materials, including different types of metals. When you consider that many people on the forum try to clean their parts with tap water for exemple, when you stop to think about it, what are the materials of most homes plumbing systems made of ? Several of the incompatible materials listed in that PDF. This is to give an idea that things are not so simple, not specifically about the exemple you gave per say but since you mentioned a metal I think it is worth pointing out again for those who may not have read the thread on crystallization that there are several metals that are incompatible with the uncured or partially uncured UV-curable acrylates.
     
  12. piginifr
    piginifr Member
    Hello People,

    sorry for my English :) I am using FUD for Gauge One Modell. For the painting I would like know if i can use
    the harter with the composit of "aliphatische Isocyanat Härter" with this kind of product i dont need primer and can directly paint the parts because it a 2k product. I am using Berlac color.

    Thank you for your help and tipps. Greetings Yves
     

    Attached Files:

  13. patmat2350
    patmat2350 Well-Known Member
    Yves- The 2K paint should be fine, but:
    1. Be sure to post-cure the parts first (expose them to UV light or sunlight for an hour or two);
    2. Wash the parts;
    3. TEST the paint on a scrap part first!

    Pat M
     
  14. piginifr
    piginifr Member
    OK Thank you Pat I will try :)
     
  15. mkroeker
    mkroeker Well-Known Member
    Since that old thread was brought to the top again, I would like to point out that the section about "incompatible materials" in the DSM guide lists materials that can cause curing of the liquid resin (and thus are to be avoided if you only want to transfer the liquid acrylate to the printer). This has absolutely nothing to do with handling of the printed parts.
     
  16. KarstenHW
    KarstenHW Member
    If Acetone is such a problem, why does Shapeways recommend it on their page about painting fine detail?
    https://www.shapeways.com/blog/archives/28264-how-to-make-it-a-model-train-holiday.html
    "1. Model Prep
    If there is any residual oil or wax support material left over from the production process, this can easily be removed using acetone or Simple Green solvent. You can simply dip and air dry the model. Or, using a paint brush, you can lightly spread the solvent on the train and air dry.
    "