Hp Nylon Plastic Now Open To All Makers!

Discussion in 'Official Announcements' started by bgeorgakas, Nov 7, 2017.

  1. When HP released the Jet Fusion printers back in 2014 they sold it as prints costing %50 of current prints and 10x faster. This should in theory mean HP grey prints should cost half as much as WSF and Shapeways should be able to still make ten times the profit because they can print ten times as many prints in the same time as their WSF prints. I am sure those numbers from HP back in 2014 were exaggerated but still I can not see how Shapeways can ask twice the price as WSF. Especially when their competitors are offering the same process for much less. I will not say where but I ordered 30 parts from their competitor and it cost me 23% of what Shapeways wants so clearly this is not based on cost to produce but rather some other factor.
     
  2. stannum
    stannum Well-Known Member
    How much would WSF cost if printed at 60 microns?
    Less visible print lines (half size than current, and below HP's 80 micron), better surface, same material usage and cleaning than always, no random voids, probably same heating and cooling times so only double lasering time.
    Because maybe that would be a better path.
     
    Last edited: Nov 9, 2017
  3. knoted
    knoted Active Member
    If that's the case, then this material certainly isn't a true feasible option in the supposed role of being a versatile creator material.

    Also, the specs for its tensile strength don't look proportionally stronger to the amount of price increase either.
    During the beta stage, I was happy to accommodate some of my end-user customers to have their HP prints go via my personal account, but with this pricing I am certainly not going to be promotiing it any longer.

    For most of the products / end-usage purposes here on SW, the HP material is equal ( or just slightly better in a few aspects than...) to the Strong Flexible Polished materials. The new pricing is simply unjustified as a price for a supposedly versatile / all-purpose end-user material.
     
  4. mkroeker
    mkroeker Well-Known Member
    He. I am just trying to tease those in the know into giving a better reason than "because it is good for you" (but not really expecting them to do that, business secrets and all that). From my perspective (and my avatar should tell you how limited that is), either the HP process failed to work as planned, or its big advantages are yet to come - which for us customers is much the same.
    One interesting observation will be if and how competitors will adjust their pricing as well - by now this printer is no longer a shapeways exclusive. Certainly dropping names here is inappropriate - you would get thrown out of any restaurant if you started shouting to the other guests that the pizza is better at Mario's across the street and the beer is cheaper there.
    (And I suspect that running the EOS printers at 60 microns would approximately double the price as well if it doubles the time the laser is powered (during which the print volume certainly has to be kept at elevated temperature). And production time would increase from two to three days if it currently one day printing, one day cooling down, also reducing throughput of the expensive machinery and perhaps even affecting service intervals.)

    (Edited just to reduce the flood of "as well"s)
     
  5. crashtestdummy
    crashtestdummy Well-Known Member
    They aren't any better than the plain white in the x and y axis and 12.50% stronger in the Z so if strength was the selling point shouldn't the price only be higher in the Z axis? At least you get a smaller Maximum bounding box at no extra charge.

    Seriously if you read the shapeways magazine and look at the specs its almost exactly like the WSF or the rest of the S&F or PLA line or inferior in some ways except unsupported wall thickness. If anything the HP S&F should be marketed as a interim replacement for FUD/FXD and the ongoing crystallization problem.

    To quote the shapeways magazine "Along with our community, we hope that in the future the HP printers will help us to lower costs for our users. It is HP’s mission to create the fastest and least expensive nylon printer on the market, and we are grateful to continue working with them to help make this happen."

    So was HP unsuccessful at lowering the cost to shapeways or is it just an experiment to find out how much the market will bear for people desperate for good looking parts?
     
  6. AotrsCommander
    AotrsCommander Well-Known Member
    Indeed. If this is geniunely the only price point that Shapeways and HP could work together to be viable, I'm afraid to say that they have completely wasted their time, money and effort, as on that front, it cannot even compete with WSF - or even FUD - (much less the home printer). At this price - it's not a vailabe material. Thos wanting an excellent finish will buy with FUD or FED, and the people who want the cheapest model and are not as concerned about the finish (and I am among that crowd) will buy WSF. HPSF is a compromise between those extremes, and at the current price, simply has nothing whatsoever to offer than those already don't.
     
    crashtestdummy likes this.
  7. reducedAircraftFactory
    reducedAircraftFactory Well-Known Member
    Regardless of what the listed specs say, from the test prints I've gotten, I do find the HP material to be stiffer, resilient, and less prone to getting crushed out of shape during shipping than WSF, without having the fragility of FUD (albeit with much less surface accuracy than FUD). That's why I think it would have made a good middle ground for my customers if the price had remained close to that of WSF. It may have had a chance at being the most popular material for my models, due to the combination of those properties.

    In fact, if the HP materials were offered a price in the same ballpark with WSF, it may have opened up interest in some customers who previously had avoided 3d printed products: those that said, "WSF is too hard to prepare and FUD won't hold up on the gaming table". So we're not just talking about cannibalizing one material for the sake of another. But at double the price I think the interest will be limited.

    Fortunately there is still time for Shapeways to study and adjust their pricing before committing to it.
     
    crashtestdummy likes this.
  8. leoparder
    leoparder Member
    You more than doubled the price from the beta test. I just ordered a simple small piece two weeks ago. It was 8 usd, same as in Strong and flexible. I check now, it's 20 usd.

    Your excuse does not make sense. You are just killing the creators, killing the community that made you.
     
    Last edited: Nov 12, 2017
    intrinsicallysublime and knoted like this.
  9. TrentTroop
    TrentTroop Member
    Color me disappointed too. The HP black and gray were basically made for my kind of store, but I'm going to be hard pressed selling my audience on the features when the cost is that high.
     
    crashtestdummy likes this.
  10. ecs_norway
    ecs_norway Active Member
    I'd really like to know the reasoning and the factors that went into determining that pricing scheme. What the logic behind it is. Because it makes no sense at all to me after months of it being so cheap and accessible in the beta program.
     
  11. yotamd
    yotamd Member
    For my applications, the HP material is about twice as good as the S&F plastic. Detail is not even comparable. Strength is better, color is not just dyed, but is a part of the material all the way through - important for cosmetic pieces that will wear.

    I'm sad about the price increase, but my most recent HP print (at the old price) was the single best print to date. Step lines are nearly invisible. Far and away better than my recent "premium" S&F parts. I think I'll replace S&F Premium offerings with the new HP material if my last print is indicative of future state prints.

    I hope pricing goes down, but I'm just passing the increase along to my customers. They'll be the ones determining what's worthwhile.
     
    Malwen likes this.
  12. Wow, the prices on HP nylon have more than doubled. Thanks for nothing, Shapeways. I was using this material for some special items I was selling directly to my customers, but there's no way I can do that any longer with this new pricing. HP Nylon is cool, but it isn't THAT cool.
     
    crashtestdummy likes this.
  13. ecs_norway
    ecs_norway Active Member
    I find it deeply amusing - and disturbing - how Shapeways continues to utterly ignore this thread outside of deleting the one post advertising their competitors.
     
    crashtestdummy likes this.
  14. mathgrrl
    mathgrrl Member
    Hey Shapeways folks -

    Does anyone know when the HP Fusion material will be available for offering in our stores? And, hopefully, if the price will come back down to something more reasonable? I'm very excited about the possibility putting out an affordable line of jewelry based on that material!

    For example I just did a "torture test" with a spiky wireframe polyhedral bracelet to compare the capabilities of Black S&F, Premium Black S&F, and the new HP material. For the same intricate model, BSF arrived broken, PBSF was rejected, and HP was *perfect*, springy, intact, strong, everything you would want.

    I've also got some simple rings that look really nice in the Gray HP material, and I'd like to offer a series of those.

    Bottom line(s):
    #1 - when can we offer the HP material in our stores
    and
    #2 - is the HP price going to go back down so something more reasonable? (or if not then a "why not" would be much appreciated)
     
  15. 3DSlotitFab
    3DSlotitFab Member
    At this price, HP is no go for the intended use that we had - which was very promising in business terms.
    This just kills it off for us and our potential customers.
     
  16. mathgrrl
    mathgrrl Member
    hey @Andrewsimonthomas are there any updates about store availability and possibly price adjusting for the HP material?
     
  17. crashtestdummy
    crashtestdummy Well-Known Member
    on the flip side we mow know how to summon SW management should we ever need a vague reply just add a "throw away" post that they can come on here to delete and see what we are posting about.
     
    IntelXeon likes this.
  18. hanelyp
    hanelyp Well-Known Member
    Looking at this from a market perspective, does shapeways have enough machines to meet demand for this material without raising prices?
     
  19. ecs_norway
    ecs_norway Active Member
    Well, the availability hasn't changed -- it's gone from "Makers who want it" to "Makers who want it". It's not like they had a problem filling orders before this.
     
  20. draw
    draw Well-Known Member
    They weren't necessarily making a giant profit on the material before if any, depending on how much labor was required to get the machines working well in the Shapeways production environment with just one or two machines. Assuming they acquire more machines and minimize the labor associated with each machine they should be able to grow efficiency and reduce costs over time. Hopefully some of those savings would be passed on to designers but the rest will go to shareholders, salary bumps & bonus', taxes to the government, and additional investments in the company.

    Ultimately the purpose of a business is to make as much money as they can challenged only by demand forces and competition from other providers. They'll charge whatever they can as long as their machines are busy enough to make a profit after all costs are considered.