Before rejecting a paid customer order, consult with the designer first

Discussion in 'Shapeways Shops' started by Oskar_van_Deventer, Jul 28, 2016.

Should Shapeways just reject customer orders

  1. Yes, Shapeways is acting right

    2.8%
  2. No, they should contact the designer first

    97.2%
  1. mkroeker
    mkroeker Well-Known Member
    What would you suggest ? The potential abuse of a changed policy seems quite obvious - order 100 unprintable placeholders during the promotional period, get ten percent off (or whatever) for the rest of the year ?
     
  2. Model_Monkey
    Model_Monkey Well-Known Member
    Last edited: Apr 20, 2017
  3. railNscale
    railNscale Well-Known Member
    Hello,

    We are experiencing yet again the complete incomptetence of your so-called quality checks.

    The amount of incorrect rejections cannot be counted anymore. Over 90% is complete nonsense (according you!).

    We have meanwhile experienced DOUBLE FALSE rejections three times. It is a total rubbish what SW is delivering here.

    As you are promoting al sorts of unwanted modifications like repricing, refurbishing websites and other bugs, maybe you can think about doing something necessary, and that is stopping with your rejection-lottery.

    So far, I only read "yes, it is our top priority", "yes, we are working on it" and "many excuses from the service team, once again".


    What is your time frame? When will the rejection lottery be something of the past? Answers please!

    Regards,
    Maurice
    PS. It seems to be a rule that rejections occur more if you are applying a promo code. Is this a coincidence?
     
    Sparkshot likes this.
  4. Sparkshot
    Sparkshot Well-Known Member
    Lately I have been fortunate and the designs seem to have stabalised. Your PS point though I have noticed and complained to SW in the past about it as it very much seemed that way. Maybe with more orders on offer days difficult prints are binned easier in order to get the easier ones through as a sort of triage priority system. If so this isn't good.

    What has botherd me greatly though is you can't contact a 'guest' so nearly all rejections from them are permanent and they won't re-order. On top of that if a few prints gets rejected then we have to scrabble around trying to fix them before the promo code ends and hope they re-order. Seldom do they ever so we all lose out, SW and the Designers.

    As I say lately my designs have stabilised so I don't want to pee on my potatoes! These issues if fixed though would be awesome and I'm sure SW are as sick of hearing us whinge as we are whinging.

    I'm actually growing in confidance to consider advertising SCC to some magazines now things seem more stable but based on all the trouble I had I have been putting it off fearing a good influx of orders all failing for bone reasons!

    What you think?

    I know RailNscale has adverts in magazines as I have seen them, I currently work a 10 hour night shift though and am pressed for time and energy so if there is more redesigning to do I'm unsure if I can keep up quick enough. Not many part time jobs out there I can do although I am looking. Any advise appreciated.

    I want to try to turn SCC into a part time or full time job if at all possible but need more time and energy to smash it out and put effort into it.
     
    Last edited: Jun 7, 2017
  5. stonysmith
    stonysmith Well-Known Member Moderator
    On repeated occasions, I just send an email to service@shapeways.com
    "I have repaired the model, can you please tell [guest] that I've fixed it?"
    and they have been happy to do so.
     
  6. Sparkshot
    Sparkshot Well-Known Member
    Ok thanks, that helps a lot.
     
  7. railNscale
    railNscale Well-Known Member
    Yesterday was a horror day with 3 Rejections (to 3 different clients).

    Some were a result of adding sprues (and for that turning items back to first-to-try), but hardly (or not at all) because the parts did not meet the design guidelines. As usual the rejection-person just does not understand what features, wires, and walls are.

    Sorry to say, but 'first-to-try' has nothing to do with the actual printability, but seems to reflect the education level or experience of the rejection-person. Again and again SW personnel demonstrate a great lack of understanding, knowledge, education or sufficient timing. Also the tools you guys use is rubbish. Clearly you let the poor rejection-persons view grey screens with numbers, whereas you show 'heatmap images' to the designers. These green-yellow-red heatmap pictures are far better then the Netfabb tool you use. Also measurements are often incorrect. You always measure less than the actual design is. Especially dimensions such as 0.59 mm seems to be a trigger to raise a red flag. Sorry: the dimension really is 0.60 mm. But sure no, why wshould SW ever consider the likelyhood of making a measurement error or tolerancing?

    Everyone knows that SW's rejection lottery is bogus and merely based on incidents and luck rather than a quality check. It seems to be the efficient way, although I don't beleive that. Since in 100% of the rejection cases I have to claim that SW does make errors or at least shows very little customer friendly behaviour.

    Still all your communication is MISLEADING telling people that you could 'solve mattgers' or that 'dispite all sorts of efforts products cannot be printed'. Both to the designers and our customers you tell stories that are not true.

    Yesterday we received a rejection call of a product that was printed succssfully before. Both in FUD and in FXD with a 100% succes rate.
    So, SW is randomly playing around with rejections?

    As proof I show you the screen shot after the rejection:
    [​IMG]
    What on earth are you doing there?

    Ofcourse I've informed the Service team about the three rejections. I also informed the involved customers.
    Today I had a face-to-face meeting with 1 service employee in Eindhoven. He apologized about the way SW is working, and is trying hard to solve matters.

    So regarding the Service team, I think they try their best. What I noticed however is that also the Service team is feeling as helpless about the rejection lottery as I am.

    SW please stop changing prices, adding fancy (but hardly tested) features, and end this destructive rejection lottery of yours.
    The way you treat our customers and the designers is not acceptable. ou waste lots of time and do not show any improvement in this respect.

    Regards,
    Maurice
     
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  8. Sparkshot
    Sparkshot Well-Known Member
    Recently a few months back I had a good run although I also recently had a rejected order due to the smokebox darts apparently being too thin. Now this is another example of common geometry (like sprues) buggering up the whole range. They have printed 100% of the time on other models but due to someone's variable opinion the order gets cancelled. So as it is common geometry this triggered yet another wasted day of redesigning almost the whole range again. As a result I pulled nearly all the WSF ones off and now visually they don't look as good. I know they print because they have done loads of times, but alas, I can't do anything other than whinge.

    Usually customers DO NOT reorder even when it is fixed. A good 90 odd % of the time.

    As well as not just rejecting an order I think there should be a field created where we can write notes and pictures that only the print 'engineers' can see, such as "this part here has same geometry as model A B C and has printed multiple times so it should here too. This bit is a sprue etc."

    Also as to the poll at page top 67 VS 2 is one sided. Any good reason after all this time something hasn't been implemented??
     
  9. Oskar_van_Deventer
    Oskar_van_Deventer Well-Known Member
    Hi Maurice,

    Shapeways now has an accountmanager, responsible for the major accounts. His name is Kevin Verhagen (email: kevinv-at-shapeways.com). I have discussed the issue with him as well during a Skype call. My suggestion is that you email him, and ask him for a Skype call as well. I assume that he has a direct line with CEO Peter Weijmarshausen.

    Oskar
     
  10. lensman
    lensman Well-Known Member
    Maybe on those occasions when there is actually something to adjust this may be one solution (still don't like it), however, I am now presently faced with yet another rejection that I would say is the most frustrating; a model gets rejected due to (in this case) the ring having "sharp edges" and polishing would alter the appearance to not what I had intended (paraphrased). Fisrt off, how do you know what I intended? I know full well that polishing reduces sharp edges and I take that into account, even want that to happen. Secondly, this ring of mine is offered in many sizes and has been successfully printed no less than 11 times in a polished metal, 6 of them in polished silver, as was recently ordered by my customer, and ONE of them in the same size and material! So, in reality, there is nothing for me to change to make the ring printable. If I were to go in and soften the edges of my design and THEN there is polishing applied, THEN the ring would NOT look like I intended!

    This is a years long problem that Shapeways has known about and solutions were being sought at that time. Myself and others have suggested in these forums that the designer be contacted (and possibly the customer notified as well) and allowed to rectify the problem - IF indeed there is a real problem. Shapeways' reasoning for not doing this is because in the past they have not been able to reach a designer quick enough for feedback. Well, so what? In that case the designer gets what he/she deserves by not responding quick enough and the order cancelled. If the subject line of an email from Shapeways could be highlighted with *IMPORTANT* I'm sure that would get the designer's attention.

    I'm pretty confident that once Shapeways responds to my recent email about my latest rejected order they will realise that indeed the ring can be printed - and a lot of frustration and time-wasting avoided.

    And, on the same subject, I reached out to my customer about his order. He told me he was totally confused since he was not told the reason for the order cancellation. Great. No attempt to try and retain the customer for a possible repeat order, just kiss him off and tell the designer "Hey, you ****ed up!"
     
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  11. Sparkshot
    Sparkshot Well-Known Member
    I and many others are having exact style issues. Thoroughly sick of redesigning things many times when I know a particular item has printed several times and another item that is often a variant has the same geometry in areas so if I get a dumb rejection order on one I feel compelled to redesign the whole range. It other cases basically forced to. As a result designs keep loosing details and getting thicker.

    WSF is the biggest culprit for me but as it is what I sell most stuff in due to it being more affordable I'm stuck playing silly games.

    For the most part Shapeways lately have for my stuff been a lot better and I've only had one item to whinge about in a long time thankfully. However often when it does happen I feel strange in that, I don't physically work at Shapeways so how could I and other designers possibly know if something will print or not? Simply because we know what has been printed and what our geometry is better than the (No doubt) constantly changing checkers and printers.

    It is this manual check malarky I can't seriously and calmly deal with much more long term. Opinion is too variable.

    I still say we should have a box to write text to the manual checkers so we can explain a few things about if the model has printed before, what was changed on last upload and what other models have same geometry in some places. I'm sure this would help.

    And yes, this reject the customers order and cancel it is the most retarded way of doing business I could ever think of, especially without communicating with them.

    I have had to put a note on my front page basically saying its best to order as a member so we can communicate. Doesn't look good but feel forced to it somewhat.

    I'm fed up of whinging to be honest. Shapeways do great things and it seems I moan more than anything. I do sometimes show prints when they turn out well and say good things but all these issues let the company doen and make us look bone.

    Are Shapeways going to sort these issues out and give us a few days to sort the order out or are we just going to keep losing sales due to the aforementioned rejection lottery?

    If the different geometry meant the model was $1 (example) more expensive or cheaper I wouldn't mind if that came out of my markup to keep the overall price the same if it would mean it would be printed and not rejected.

    Any official Shapeways update on these problems???
     
  12. lensman
    lensman Well-Known Member
    Yes, I believe I have suggested something similar in the past.

    Here is what I received from Shapeways today: "In terms of the cancellation, I do agree this is frustrating and we are working on a new method of cancelling models that would involve a hold state before cancellation for you as the designer to provide feedback to us or redesign the model as needed before we cancel it outright. This should be rolled out in full before the end of the year and we will send out communication about this."
     
  13. Carlos2k10
    Carlos2k10 Active Member
    Got affected yesterday with a propeller blade identified as wire instead of wall.

    One point I need to rise is that there should be clear criteria followed by all the print engineers that
    check the models before printing.

    It really drives me crazy when I get rejections on items that have been printed a bunch of times
    without issues but somebody decides to consider a part of the model a different kind of feature.

    Please shapeways create a strict set of guidelines for your print eng. team:
    A wall should be a wall for everybody
    A wire should be a wire for everybody
    This should not change as the wind blows

    So please define CLEARLY and set in stone what is what in order to save reprints
    and frustration to both designers and end customers.

    It is in your own interest to save reprints that could have been avoided
    ambiguity works for a while but it comes a moment that it backfires big time.
     
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  14. lensman
    lensman Well-Known Member
    So, after working this out with Support the model was marked as for sale again and the customer re-ordered.... and today I got another rejection notice for the exact same issue!! Really? This is pathetic.
     
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