Road To Major Fud Improvements Starts With Repricing

Discussion in 'Official Announcements' started by Andrewsimonthomas, May 9, 2017.

  1. stonysmith
    stonysmith Well-Known Member Moderator
    Remember that the one of the most expensive parts of the operation is the TIME (electricity) involved to produce a print. If I understand the technology right, the printer can print a full X-Y layer in a single step.

    I don't know the exact speed of the printer, but let's say it can produce a full single layer in 30 seconds. A 10cm tall spire is 625 steps (10 mm/16 micron) and would take 5 hours to produce. The x/y size of the item doesn't slow the process down, it's the repeated Z stepping that takes the time.

    It would still take 5 hours of operation if the shape was only 1mm square, or the full 284mm × 184mm of the bounding box.

    Then, on top of that, unlike WSF, the objects can't be printed stacked on top of each other (unless you want serious surface defects).. everything has to be spread out side by side. That limits how much can be produced in each batch.

    Tall objects chew up significant time that the printer could be used to produce other items - thus the "penalty" for tall objects.
     
    Ngineer likes this.
  2. stonysmith
    stonysmith Well-Known Member Moderator
    Just for comparison, here's the same chart for my shop.. nearly 3/4ths of my models drop in price.
    FudPrices.jpg
     
  3. Derek66
    Derek66 Active Member
    Here is a similar graph for all of my FD "for sale" products...
    upload_2017-5-27_6-0-44.png


    And here is the same thing but including only my model airships as opposed to all of the accessories and other accompanying products


    upload_2017-5-27_5-56-16.png

    In both graphs each vertical line is a product : 227 for sale in total of which 107 are Airship models. The left hand axis is the percentage increase on the "old base price". My airship models are generally three or four part files,

    Since my shop name is CLASSIC AIRSHIPS you can see that the new pricing regime is an absolute disaster for me.
     

    Attached Files:

  4. orange3D
    orange3D Member
    Hello,
    When can we expect orientation set for FUD to become available?
    I am quite concerned with the finish quality of my models and re-designing them to reduce part count affects the print orientation and thereby the quality as well.
    I have been checking the support material function but it has been super slow, is this normal? What is the average time for previewing the support material?

    cheers,
    Sonny
     
  5. railNscale
    railNscale Well-Known Member
    Hello Sonny,

    The print orientation was never consistent at SW. So that will not improve or get worse if you change your design.
    If you sprue parts together, keep in mind that all components that are sprued will naturally face the same direction in the printer. For convenience I put all surfaces that are suppose to be the best looking up in my model.

    Regarding the 'checking support material function' it really s*cks.

    Whenever super-duper functions are added here, the processinging becomes slower and slower. This means that these tools will never be used. Come on SW: get real and make the interface user friendly and make it let's say 50 times quicker?

    Regards,
    Maurice
     
  6. Derek66
    Derek66 Active Member
    Maurice, Sonny, everyone

    The Support Material tool is worse than super slow for me ! I have been trying over the last 48 hours and has been consistently giving me a "timed-out after 60 seconds" message until just a moment ago. Then it returned the following , which shows only one of the two parts included......

    upload_2017-5-27_21-25-53.png

    Is this normal?

    Derek

    Derek66
    CLASSIC AIRSHIPS
     
  7. Derek66
    Derek66 Active Member
    Can anyone tell me if/where I am going wrong?

    From the graphs I posted earlier you can see that I have a massive problem with my airship models. The "ZPG-3" is just one of my 'ships and I have tried reducing it to two parts and split it down the longitudinal axis to reduce height and support material to a minimum...
    upload_2017-5-27_21-39-38.png
    (View it here: https://www.shapeways.com/product/WDG2VB3CR/zpg-3-assembly-new-price-mods)

    When the Support Material tool finally worked it showed me that it would print as I expected (and as per my post a moment ago.) The dreadful truth is that the price for this optimised model under the new formula is €83.34. Under the old system it was €20.74.

    The original model that I am trying to modify to fit the new price regime - https://www.shapeways.com/product/DJF7HB56D/us-navy-zpg-3w-quot-vigilance-quot - had a base price of €29.56 which has now become €106.28.

    Can anyone give me any advice as to whether or not it could be possible for me to get anywhere near the original base price?

    For me, 3D printing is/was the only practical proposition for producing my models; things like resin and white metal casting just are not an option as they would have been for 80% of Shapeways users in the days before Shapeways arrived.

    The truth seems to be that the new pricing "fits" for anyone whose designs are mostly made up of cube/box elements - eg. trains, AFV's, trucks, buildings, ships etc. Start designing in spheres and cylinders -eg. modern aircraft, airships, balloons (and add things like vertical tail-planes and undercarriage assemblies) and you have major problems...

    Derek

    Derek66
    CLASSIC AIRSHIPS
     
  8. barkingdigger
    barkingdigger Well-Known Member
    How are you getting to the support material button? I haven't found it yet, but then at the moment none of my models seem to load within the magic 60 seconds! (I assume it's in the "view 3D tools" section?) A button I can't find is a promised "new function" I haven't received, as far as I'm concerned.
     
  9. Derek66
    Derek66 Active Member
    Go to the "Edit attached model" page from the product view page, then click on "View 3D tools" that appears in the left hand column under material finish ( for FUD, FXD)

    Then in the Material Overview column, click on Support Material

    Derek
     
  10. Derek66
    Derek66 Active Member
    @AlanHudson Has Shapeways considered that in arriving at a pricing model that fits most easily for people designing predominantly in cubes/boxes - eg Model Railway fans, you might have risked seriously damaging your business with people who design predominantly in spheres and cylinders - eg Model Aircraft fans. You should know that the bigger market in the world is with Model Aircraft. The customer market that you have now and the market that you could have had, are two different things.

    Please see my posts over the last few hours to see how I, as just one model aircraft fan, have been affected.

    Derek
    CLASSIC AIRSHIPS
     
  11. 1068084_deleted
    1068084_deleted Active Member
    [​IMG]
    Hello . I would not try to halve them in half this direction.
    But in the middle cross. Then you have 2 half cups which you then as cups in each other. Eventual you must separate the wings.
    You save your support material. The one half uses then the support material of the other. And needs itself less.
    On the image blue support material
    Red lower half yellow upper half.
     

    Attached Files:

  12. southernnscale
    southernnscale Well-Known Member
    I think they did try to order and got this for and hour now!
    Capture8.JPG
     
  13. DistrictX
    DistrictX Member
    after almost 20 pages of disagreements, the final conclusion is that shapeways expels a large number of sellers who will seek for new collaborations with competing 3d service factories.

    we all know that competing 3d service factories are already aware of new fud prices and offer fud-alike materials at about half price while 3d printing sla resins with much better detail precision than fud, can even reach 1/4 of current fud price in shapeways.

    shapeways is a leading factory, but imho the new fud pricing policy is a "double or nothing" russian roulette game and will become waterloo for shapeways. food for thought to shapeways ceo.
     
    Last edited: May 27, 2017
    Derek66 likes this.
  14. TonyRR
    TonyRR Well-Known Member
    @DistrictX can you tell me which 3D printing services are offering good cheaper FUD and space to make a shop?
     
  15. DistrictX
    DistrictX Member
    someone already started a thread for alternative factories offering services for fud 3d printing. guess what, the thread magically dispappeared within minutes. you cannot seriously expect to discuss names and advantages of competitors on shapeways' own company forum
     
  16. MrNibbles
    MrNibbles Well-Known Member
    I need to do a thorough examination but almost all my frosted stuff went down in price, although that's because it's not stuff that's terribly useful in terms of hobbyist things like model trains, planes, dirigibles, or automobiles. And with only about 17 items offered in frosted it's not going to be a very exciting spreadsheet graph either. I think the big loser is an 80mm ornament from the old SW ornament maker. Those things suffered from the SF price increase by adding machine space and now something similar in frosted. Much like opening a hole for SF production it would now need to be cut in half around the equator or something to cut cost. But it never sold anyway so no big dealio I guess.

    I suppose another possibility is that in the background they are working on introducing another printer technology with decent print quality and lower cost, and the frosted detail material is just going to become a vestigial material in the long run like an appendix. Who knows what's happening behind the scenes?
     
    Ngineer likes this.
  17. taz_of_boyds
    taz_of_boyds Active Member
    Derek,
    Have you considered chop off the ends and splitting the rest lengthwise in three or four parts? Arrange each part pointing up the way you would like to print, and keep everything to about the same height as multiple parts in one model.
    All the best, Charles Sloane
     
  18. Derek66
    Derek66 Active Member
     
  19. Derek66
    Derek66 Active Member
    Thanks for the suggestion, I have had a look at what I can do and it is actually impossible for me to nest one half of the hull into the other. I very much appreciate the advice though.
     
  20. Derek66
    Derek66 Active Member
    Thanks Charles, one of the benefits of this idea is that all of the important exterior surfaces would be free from support material blemishes. The downside is that the beautiful curves of the envelope will have lots of join lines. Needs must though and I will give this a go. I will post the results when I have them. Isn't it ironic that SW's pricing system actually stops designers exploiting the unique potential of 3D printing!

    Derek