Shapeways: Bring your creativity to life in 3D

New price structure

stannum — 2011-09-21T17:55:05-00:00

This should probably be in Official Announcements
http://www.shapeways.com/blog/archives/1012-An-Update-to-the -Shapeways-Pricing-Structure.html

Re: New price structure

aegidian — 2011-09-21T18:03:13-00:00

Will the $25 minimum still apply?

Re: New price structure

nancyliang — 2011-09-21T19:22:00-00:00

Nope! There will not be a minimum order size anymore.

Re: New price structure

mctrivia — 2011-09-21T19:27:13-00:00

yah to no minimum order. Boo to Changing prices before implementing CSV Input. That is a rediculous amount of work to adapt for new pricing scheme

Re: New price structure

nancyliang — 2011-09-21T19:40:10-00:00

Who says we won't release a new tool before the pricing changes? It might even be a CSV...

Re: New price structure

mctrivia — 2011-09-21T19:45:40-00:00

well that would be great. Mentioning something like that before releasing price change notice may stop a few people from having heart atacks. Without CSV that would be a good 20+ hours work.

Re: New price structure

glehn — 2011-09-22T00:09:36-00:00

$19.99 for shipping to the rest of the world? My orders will become VERY expensive...
I believe most of my customers are from US and Europe so they may not feel that. But all the test prints that I order for myself...

Re: New price structure

mctrivia — 2011-09-22T00:26:15-00:00

maybe shapeways can offer a testing service. Say $3 will photograph in high quality for you. $5 will do some simple tests. Then instead of shipping they recycle the print. May be worth it for some people.

Re: New price structure

duann — 2011-09-22T00:34:32-00:00

Thanks Stannum,

Please direct any questions here or to the blog so that everyone can find them easily and we can respond to any feedback.

I will try and generate a few case studies on pricing.

Attached is a spreadsheet with all pricing and a calculator, enter cm3 to get a price for your models, also a column for mark-up if you want to test that too.

UPDATE: See Later iteration of spreadsheet now attached

Re: New price structure

bluelinegecko — 2011-09-22T01:01:16-00:00

Since the majority of my models for sale were made in the 2-2.5cm3 range, the new pricing structure in stainless just increased the price of most of my models over 20%. Not having the free shipping will probably cost me the majority of my potential sales

The sad thing is that I thought with the opening of the NY distribution center that the prices were actually going to go DOWN.

From my rough calculations it looks like the majority of us wont see any benefit to the new pricing structure unless the models exceed 7cm3 in volume.

If shapeways wants to reduce some of the time spent on determining if a model is printable or not they need to find some way of designating models as printable once the are successfully printed. I've had a few models incorrectly rejected more than once for the same reason (They assumed the model contained multiple parts even though it was one piece intended to look like multiple parts).

Is there a typo on the price list for stainless steel? I mean... it only cost $1.50 more under the new price to have ANY size model in the bronze finish, and only $3 more in the new price structure to have an Item GOLD plated? I would think you could cut plain stainless a bit of a price break. And you guys have always been a LOT better priced than ponoko in the past.

Stainless Steel. (2.5 cm3)

Shapeways current pricing (2.5x$10/cm3)
$25 + $0 shipping

Shapeways NEW pricing
(2.5 x $8/cm3 = $20 +6.00 handeling fee = 26.50
+6.50 shipping (U.S. assuming 1 model bought) = $33.00 (a 32% price increase)

PONOKO's pricing (non member)
(2.5 x 10.53/cm3 = 26.33 + $5 shipping = $31.33 total)

PONOKO's pricing (prime membership)
(2.5 x 10.10/cm3 = 25.25 + $0 shipping = $25.25 total)

Re: New price structure

duann — 2011-09-22T01:47:53-00:00

Hi bluelinegecko

This change does reflect the cost of production, at 3cm3 stainless steel matches the current price, after that it is cheaper.

Calculating the postage means that bigger orders will lower your shipping cost. I am also unsure about the shipping calculations for Ponoko as a comparison. In my experience within the US something of that scale would cost a minimum of $9 to ship? Unless there have been some changes.

Re: New price structure

stannum — 2011-09-22T01:57:09-00:00

Taking current prices:

                                   start  cm3
Alumide                            1.5    1.99
Antique Bronze Glossy              0      *    12.|10.|9.|8.
Antique Bronze Matte               0      *    12.|10.|9.|8.
Frosted Detail                     5.     2.39
Frosted Ultra Detail               5.     3.49
Full Color Sandstone               1.5    0.99
Gold Plated Glossy                 0      *    23.|11.|10.|9.
Gold Plated Matte                  0      *    20.|11.|10.|9.
Grey Robust                        0      2.50
High Gloss Black Glass             5.     6.99
High Gloss White Glass             5.     6.99
Milky White Matter Glass           5.     5.99
Sandstone                          1.5    0.99
Silver                            20.    20.   (min 1 cm3)
Silver Glossy                     30.    20.   (min 1 cm3)
Stainless Steel                    0     10.
Transparent Detail                 0      2.77
White Detail                       0      2.89
Black Detail                       0      2.9
White Strong & Flexible            1.5    1.5
White Strong & Flexible Polished   1.5    1.75
Black Strong & Flexible            4.     1.78
Dark Grey Strong & Flexible        4.     1.99
Indigo Strong & Flexible           4.     1.99
Red Strong & Flexible              4.     1.99

* Each band billed differently and accumulative:
  1 cm3 minimum | 1st-5th | 5th-10th | above 10th
  (8 cm3 will be A + B*4 + C*3 + D*0)

The results are that:
- No matter how big the model is, prices increased for TD, WD, BD, both Silvers & all Glass (and then add shipping increase).
- No matter how big, base prices are the same for Alumide, FD & FUD, but shipping is extra so prices increased by that amount.
- The rest is variable depending in volume and destination. For example WSF is cheaper above 65-200 cm3 (for non dense items), Robust above 17-44 cm3 or SS above 6.25-13 cm3. Best seems to be Gold Plated Glossy with 1-2.27 cm3.

Corrections and extra examples welcome.

Re: New price structure

bluelinegecko — 2011-09-22T01:59:25-00:00

Yes, bigger orders will lower my shipping costs and when I order my own models in the future I will surely place larger orders. But this greatly affects my co-creators. All of my sales have been single orders through them, so that effectively raised those potential customer prices 25-33%.

Even if I chose to take orders through ebay/etsy, etc and have the items shipped to me to save on shipping, the price will be just as high for me to ship the items out to my customers directly.

I still don't understand the pricing as it relates to gold plated/bronze/stainless. I would think the post processing would cost more than $1.5 - $3.00

How about giving free shipping or a discount on the handling fees to co-creators items only?

Re: New price structure

stannum — 2011-09-22T03:39:58-00:00

Larger orders is a logical step, and one thing has to be enabled or given as option with this new structure: all-or-nothing orders. If one item is cancelled, automatically cancelling the full order was a reasonable action, now even more so.

Say you order a handful of items and all but one or two are unprintable, or maybe half of them. That is pretty common when testing. Before it was just waiting for enough items for 25 again, now if you are unlucky it would mean paying shipping for every one or two, negating the incentive to group items and hit the declared target of efficiency.

Re: New price structure

tebee — 2011-09-22T05:10:19-00:00

Eh? I've just downloaded the spreadsheet in the above post but the cost (column "E") appears to be a fixed figure and not calculated from the volume.

I'm using Libre-office, but I'll double check on the computer downstairs with MS Office when I get up.

Tom

Re: New price structure

duann — 2011-09-22T05:58:38-00:00

Hmm, weirdness.

Export from google docs, worked in (ahem) apple numbers

Let me retest,

Formula is easy B2+C2*D2

copied down it should work.

Let me know how you go.

Re: New price structure

pfeiffer stylez — 2011-09-22T10:08:49-00:00

Will multiple objects per file be allowed ?
(Especially for all the "Detail" materials...)

Re: New price structure

roofoo — 2011-09-22T12:55:16-00:00

duann wrote on Thu, 22 September 2011 01:47

Except all my models are less than 2cm3, I'm selling jewelry, not airplane parts. Not to mention import fees and UPS fees for orders larger than about $35-$40. So this really does hurt my bottom line tremendously. I'm still not clear how it costs the same to handle a small model as it does large ones. I would think it takes less time and effort to print and finish smaller objects than large bulky items.

Re: New price structure

tessman — 2011-09-22T13:49:21-00:00

I'd suggest a line for WSF with > 10% density, for the discount. I'm not sure how many people this affects, though (I'm borderline, myself).

Re: New price structure

mo-design — 2011-09-22T13:51:35-00:00

Hello,

first of all I want to say that I like the systematic of the new price system. So it is clear for each customer for what he pays.

Of course I dislike that you increased the cost for most materials. But if it is necessary to fit your afford than it has to be done.

As you claim now handling cost for all materials I highly wish that you invent an (semi-)automatic sprue system. 3D printing is a flexible technology and it should still be possible to order a collection of small items for a reasonable price.
I can create bulks of my products, but than the flexibility for the customer is lost and he is limited to products of one designer. That cannot be the idea of 3D printing.

So on you have to check my designs every time I upload a new bulk collection, whereas with a server side sprue system the items in the shops will not change each order. Also you can arrange the items so that they fit optimal the production space in the printer. The handling costs will reduce for you and also for the customer.

At least as long as your site updates will be in this quality, I am not willing to design sprues in my bulk packages. Because I have no benefit of it, only more design time and higher volume.

King regards
Michael

Re: New price structure

Youknowwho4eva — 2011-09-22T13:56:12-00:00

roofoo wrote on Thu, 22 September 2011 12:55

As far as the handling, small parts have several difficulties. Finding them in the powder, most smaller items have smaller details so cleaning excess material is more difficult in all materials. imagine trying to dye, or glaze these things that are so tiny, imagine with silver and stainless, how fragile the green parts are. You have to be even more careful with a tiny piece not to break it than a larger piece.

Re: New price structure

Bunrattypark — 2011-09-22T19:43:46-00:00

I don't have the luxury of time to spend an evening browsing my new pricing, and all the threads relating to the new page layout. Two questions, please. How do I account for the 10% discount on WSF, and WHERE is the figure for volume on the new page layout? How can I insert cm3 when I don't know what it is?

This is all very, very confusing for someone who can only afford a few minutes each night on the Shapeways site. I haven't the time to re-learn everything. I love the new arrangement of the renders and/or photographs. Everything else is too complicated and confusing. Whatever happened to KISS (Keep It Simple Stupid)?

Many thanks.

Re: New price structure

tessman — 2011-09-22T20:13:40-00:00

There's a slider on the upper left of the page "Edit Page" that you have to click to show volume, which appears right next to the dimensions. Inconvenient, isn't it?

From what I understand, the volume discount for 10% density or higher will work the same as now, but with a lower rate, so the price will be $1.50 + $1.40 * (volume up to 20 cm3) + $0.70 * (volume above 20 cm3).

Re: New price structure

tessman — 2011-09-22T20:15:26-00:00

upper right (the other left)

Re: New price structure

Bunrattypark — 2011-09-22T22:06:39-00:00

Understood, many thanks!

Re: New price structure

cadalu — 2011-09-23T04:25:17-00:00

Sorry if I missed it, are multiple parts per file ok?

Well, you guys made me feel better about the download files being corrupt and unusable, I'll have to wait for the 1st to order silver anyways.

Re: New price structure

roofoo — 2011-09-23T12:14:21-00:00

How will the new pricing affect items like earrings that come in a pair? Is that going to be one handling fee or two?

Re: New price structure

mctrivia — 2011-09-23T12:16:15-00:00

probably 1 per stl like it was before in WSF and other materials that had the startup cost.

Re: New price structure

Youknowwho4eva — 2011-09-23T12:57:04-00:00

roofoo wrote on Fri, 23 September 2011 12:14

How will the new pricing affect items like earrings that come in a pair? Is that going to be one handling fee or two?

It will be the same as now. One startup/handleing fee per pair.

Re: New price structure

aegidian — 2011-09-23T13:25:24-00:00

Reading between the lines about multiple parts per file - Shapeways would obviously prefer to discourage this as multiple parts increase the time spent handling each model dramatically.

I'm aware of this as I sell several sets of dice and miniatures (up to ten in a set) and I've had occasion to have a model rejected because of it having too many parts.

This led to a short discussion by email of the problem, and the likely outcome is that Shapeways is going to begin rejecting models that consist of too many disconnected parts (IIRC the limit may well be twelve separate parts, although with the new pricing structure they may reduce this.)

I can see the need for Shapeways to make a public decision about this (rather than the 'Gentlemans agreement' mentioned in the last Shapeways Live.)

Re: New price structure

AotrsCommander — 2011-09-23T15:00:59-00:00

If only one part per model becomes enforced, then it more-or-less kills a huge proportion of their customer base. (A reasonable upper limit would be acceptable, of course; a dozen seems fair - but that is for me, not other folk, of course.)

For one, it will kill a lot (if not most of) the miniatures modellers, myself included: there is no point using Shapeways if it becomes far more expensive than metal. (How can you do tanks, for instance, if you are obliged to do the turret and hull as seperate models?) If you can economically only use it for master creation - well, frankly, there are far better services out there for that job. There has been a really burgeoning starship modelling community, but Shapeways is looming very close to losing nearly the entirety of it at it's current rate (as well as getting all the bad publicity fall out).

(And Shapeways cannot be unaware of it, given that they are releasing that 3D random starship generator - though the existance does make it seem like they don't really quite understand the market there.)

And what about stuff like Oskar's puzzles, which have a reputation enough that even I, someone who is soley interested in miniatures, have heard of? For what I can gather from his shop (without seeing the 3D images, thanks to the delightful new product page) they are either composed of multiple pieces (as a kit or in-situ) or sprued together... And I can't imagine that even if they are sprued they can be easy to clean. (Or does that sort of thing get a pass because it's already expensive?)

At the end of the day, if Shapeways wants to function as a universal 3D printer service, it's going to have to grit their teeth and realise that people are going to want small things printed, sometimes. It's part of the job. Shapeways is in a good position now because it is about the only one who is cheap, and getting a reputation. When it loses that advantage, when other companies start to follow suite (and it's inevitable they will) or the price of the machines themselves and the reliablity comes down (and it's well on it's way, sometimes within the next 2-5 years), there will be no reason to stick with Shapeways if they can't offer a competative service.

(There's already a miniatures company in England that's somehow producing (solid) 1/72nd and 1/144 vehicles at half the price of what it would cost in WSF from Shapeways but with a finish closer to WD. (No, I don't know how they are doing that. I suspect they have access to an industrial-engineering grade machine (i.e. one that does something like Formula One prototyping or something.)). Point is, it's coming steadily.

Re: New price structure

nancyliang — 2011-09-23T16:09:01-00:00

Hey guys,

First, you all propose interesting points and difficult questions. There's no magic solution for this. The truth is, that printing individual pieces does make it incredibly difficult to sort and thus raise the cost in labor.

Second, we don't want to inhibit any creativity of our community. Reasonable bundling (puzzles, sets, earrings) does make sense. We don't want to penalize you guys for creating sets that makes sense. There are people, though, who bundle together a few items that should be distinct to get around the start up costs. Unfortunately, these in the end, will raise the price for everybody because the costs as a whole will increase at an imbalanced rate to the revenue.

In the end, we are working on tools to better detect distinct parts and will charge accordingly. However, we also recognize that certain items are natural sets (ie earrings) and are conceptually "one item." Rather than just raising the price for everybody, we will also come out with some suggestions on how to create sprues that lower labor (there are ways of creating sprues that actually adds to handling labor and having a lot of people bundle sprues in a way to makes it more difficult to handle also raise the cost for everybody), and how to create cages for loose parts. If there are any other brilliant ideas on bundling, please let me know.

I hope that addresses some of your questions.

Thanks,
Nancy

Re: New price structure

Tbmod — 2011-09-23T16:26:38-00:00

I personally, make quite a lot of things in bulk packs as, if I were to do them individually, the start-up cost would exceed the material cost and they would be priced out of the market.

I'm re-selling them , individually or in pairs on eBay, but after I've treated them myself ( I've dyed or painted them , sometimes assembling with other non-Shapeways parts)

I've tried sprueing these parts together but was unable to get a decent answer as to whether this was a good idea or just made it harder to handle.

After most of them arrived here with the sprues broken or missing completely I've now abandoned using them.

So far no one has ever contacted me to say I've been putting too many models in one STL file.

Tom

Re: New price structure

AotrsCommander — 2011-09-23T16:38:30-00:00

nancyliang wrote on Fri, 23 September 2011 16:09

In the end, we are working on tools to better detect distinct parts and will charge accordingly. However, we also recognize that certain items are natural sets (ie earrings) and are conceptually "one item." Rather than just raising the price for everybody, we will also come out with some suggestions on how to create sprues that lower labor (there are ways of creating sprues that actually adds to handling labor and having a lot of people bundle sprues in a way to makes it more difficult to handle also raise the cost for everybody), and how to create cages for loose parts. If there are any other brilliant ideas on bundling, please let me know.

I hope that addresses some of your questions.

Thanks,
Nancy

I don't see how you can even begin to do that without human effort and arbitarily assigning weight to certain types of product. I don't see how you can fairly assign a split. If you say, yes, earrings and puzzles are allowed to be in multiple pieces, but badges or miniatures aren't?

And are you really suggesting that the folks making earrings, for example, are going to have to start using sprues or cages? In metal, with the wall thickness of those materials? Sprues in plastic is all well and good but I imagine in metal they'll be a nightmare to remove (unless you are going to spend the time to do it yourselves, rather than the end user.)

Not too mention that, once again, this means increased cost to the customer (not so much to me, as I work in the cheap stuff but it'll be quite considerable for those wanting metal.) And not having sprues is an advantages of 3D printing in the first.

Re: New price structure

stop4stuff — 2011-09-23T20:13:02-00:00

So where does chain malle come into the equation?
Imagine, I submit a 800 ring chain maille model, the software picks it up as 200 individual models joined by 600 links... or worse, it could be the other way around. Obviously, WSF or FUD only (metals are a no no)

Now ^ that was a stupid example... but?

'Adapt & survive' is my catch phrase for the week - that's what Shapeways are doing with the restructuring... gotta go with the flow, sink or swim and all that.

Re: New price structure

TurtlesAreCool — 2011-09-26T03:00:51-00:00

I went to order another copy of my heart ornament, in order to test the Co-Creator platform to make sure I understand how that works before someone else decides to buy one.

I was a little surprised at the price of the stainless steel for my model. My earlier order cost about $40, since the model is nearly 4 cm3. This order comes to $50.

Another oddity: Every single price is rounded to the nearest 5 cents.

This is a screenshot from the spreadsheet I created when the new pricing model was announced. I copied the column for 4 cm3 from the old and new models ("old" and "new' columns, respectively). I also copied down the current price I see for my model. This is the "current" column.

So, what happened? I'm willing to assume an error on someone's part, as this does not seem to represent what was communicated last week.

One important note: The error shows up on that particular model (which is a co-creator), but not on the other models I checked, which are still using the old pricing structure.

Re: New price structure

TomZ — 2011-09-26T06:08:17-00:00

Puzzles are actually reasonably easy to handle. With WSF it is possible to build a sinterbox around them which keeps the parts contained - it's sort of a wire mesh box. Cleaning is quite easy and is done with the parts contained in the sinterbox so it hardly is any more work than cleaning one model.

However, Shapeways does not ship the parts inside of the sinterbox and counts all the parts by hand. If a part goes missing it's apparently a lot of work to figure out which one it is - this is apparently the worst of handling puzzles.

I think that trying to write software that detects multiple parts is a waste of time. I think you should rather do a manual check which also allows you greater flexibility in allowing some leeway.
You might allow a first-time customer to make this mistake once, sending out the order along with a warning "please don't do this again". For experienced designers you would just refuse to print a multi part model.

There are two things that annoy me about the current WSF pricing:

- The incentive to hollow parts unnecessarily. I make all my puzzles with 0.7mm hollow parts while the actual cost for making solid parts is very tiny. This is annoying because I would prefer solid parts (nicer feel, weight, less work to design) but the pricing greatly discourages it.

- The fact that with the startup fee, we're forced to stack parts in one file (or do the high poly/composite model thing). The truth is that counting the parts and figuring out which ones are missing would be infinitely easier if we could just supply the parts one model per part instead of one model per puzzle. Though obviously amending this would need some way to make a part group of various models so customers can order easily.

Re: New price structure

lensman — 2011-09-26T16:07:04-00:00

bluelinegecko wrote on Thu, 22 September 2011 01:01

Stainless Steel. (2.5 cm3)

Shapeways current pricing (2.5x$10/cm3)
$25 + $0 shipping

Shapeways NEW pricing
(2.5 x $8/cm3 = $20 +6.00 handeling fee = 26.50
+6.50 shipping (U.S. assuming 1 model bought) = $33.00 (a 32% price increase)

PONOKO's pricing (non member)
(2.5 x 10.53/cm3 = 26.33 + $5 shipping = $31.33 total)

PONOKO's pricing (prime membership)
(2.5 x 10.10/cm3 = 25.25 + $0 shipping = $25.25 total)

*AND* Ponoko ships by mail, not UPS, (I've only used them once so I assume that's still the case) and THAT alone would save me a minimum EXTRA $14 charge from UPS at my door!

Glenn

Re: New price structure

razh00 — 2011-09-29T17:41:31-00:00

sadly ill have to consider another options like imaterialize and ponoko.

I was really really happy with the service of shapeways even thought the last orders were delayed...

I dont like that changes and ill start production in another company even considering they are still a little more expensive.

bye shapeways

Re: New price structure

designerica — 2011-09-29T18:09:32-00:00

this is what you are doing:
forcing us all to put multiple parts into one file to save money if our files are small.

you were already doing this before with many of your materials. now you are doing it on all of them.

the result of your "philosophy" is that you are NOT a retailer, you are a wholesaler. you only make affordable small products when we order multiple parts in the same file. not even the same order.

what this means for me: i will never place an order without putting many parts into one file. fine, this new pricing structure WILL save me money, because i will basically be cheating the system. you will be removing sprews from 20 rings for the price of 1. OK with me. maybe not so OK with you, as i doubt this is your goal.

this is exactly the same a having a handling charge per material in an order rather than per part. you seem to allow this, so why not be honest about it? if you implemented a handling fee *per material* in an order rather than *per file*, i wouldn't have to upload a new file every time i made an order. all you're doing is wasting my time and your server space making me upload a million files.

you're not looking at the big picture. the result of this price change will not be the one you are looking for.

as for the rest of you- if you still want to sell through your printer, try the company out of new zealand. but i suggest merging parts into one file and selling on a site where everything ISN'T 3D printed and your stuff can have more impact.

Re: New price structure

B1lancer — 2011-09-29T18:13:53-00:00

I understand that Shapeways want to streamline their operation, but if a user is to put the effort in to design products to make them more efficient to produce they should not be penalised by paying a higher price.

Because many of my models are small the new price means it'll be more work to produce my models to be printed more efficiently but instead of me seeing a benefit I am charged more and Shapeways are increasing their profits.

Why does it cost $9.50 to send a package weighing only a few grams? And why is shipping almost 1/3rd cheaper to the U.S. when I live 1/10th of the distance away?

I order nothing like the number of models from Shapeways I used to; I have hardly added anything public to my shop in recent months and this is because I am disappointed in the way Shapeways are going. I used to love Shapeways but now with the long lead times, increase in prices for my models and cancellation of customers orders because a model is "too thin to print" despite being printed 30-40 times before I am now lacking the enthusiasm to produce more models.

Sad regards,

Jack

Re: New price structure

stop4stuff — 2011-09-29T18:17:33-00:00

designerica (respectfully) did you view the last SW Live yet?
My summary is that the pricing structure re-vamp is needed for SW to carry on providing their 3D printing services. Yes, it has made me re-evaluate my stance, adapt to survive and all that.

Re: New price structure

designerica — 2011-09-29T18:20:34-00:00

oh and yes, UPS sucks. USPS would be better. i've mentioned before that i'd even rather spend my own time and pick up from the new york office than deal with UPS in some cases. sometimes they deliver in 1 day, but other times they are just unbearable.

as for detecting multiple parts in a file (now that i read the rest of the comments on the forums since the blog comments seem to be shut down), if you start in with that i'll definitely be moving to prometal for my manufacturing because you forced me to design small, thin objects to be able to sell them affordably and now i like my designs and want to continue to produce them as they are, and if you make it impossible for me to produce them affordably i will certainly go elsewhere for my printing services. i already pay ponoko club membership for my laser cutting.

Re: New price structure

designerica — 2011-09-29T18:39:55-00:00

no, ana, i hadn't. i've been working like crazy to repackage and mail out the shipments from shapeways that arrived late to me. i spent yesterday afternoon trying reach someone at shapeways about the order that was promised and failed to arrive. then last night was the jewish new year. plus i'm sick. i have not had a chance to watch it all but i just watched some of it.

i understand what you are saying, but it doesn't change the fact that in order to maintain my prices on the small items i have already been producing i would have to continue to bundle them or go elsewhere. i have the facilities to do my own sprew removal on the steel, and i'm getting no benefit from your retail portal.

the last time a co-creator model was ordered from me, i uploaded a file immediately and even though i could see it in your system, it was considered lost and a month later i was asked to upload it again after the customer contacted me and i contacted shapeways. so the co-creator platform doesn't work right, either.

so please, tell us all, what would we be getting from shapeways that i couldn't get elsewhere?

i really really really think you're biting off more than you can chew trying to figure out manufacturing AND retailing at once.

Re: New price structure

stop4stuff — 2011-09-29T18:46:45-00:00

me != ana, she's much more pretty and i've got a beard...

sounds like you've been having a rough time... chin up

Re: New price structure

Tbmod — 2011-09-29T18:49:17-00:00

I'm guessing Shapeways always uses UPS as the have an exclusive deal with them which gives them access some very keen pricing. So 90% of the customers benefit buy getting cheap posting but a few suffer through UPS excessive service charges and maybe poor service in some areas. I've always found the subcontractor who does my UPS deliveries here fine so I'm in the happy 90%.

Just to give you an illustration of how good a deal Shapeways is getting I looked at sending a small package but the same service Shapeways uses. I was quoted 26 Euros . So if I want to use that service I have to pay 30% more that the 25$ Shapeways minimum order - and Shapeways has to do all the handling and of course actually produce the item for that !

Someone at Shapeways was a mean negotiator when they got their deal !

Re: New price structure

designerica — 2011-09-29T18:49:55-00:00

oh ha ha sorry.

i'm really having a tough week. yes. ups screwed up, shapeways screwed up, prometal screwed up, i screwed up, i got sick.

Re: New price structure

roofoo — 2011-09-29T19:02:04-00:00

I feel for you Erica, the new pricing scheme has me tearing my hair out too (not that I had much left anyway.) lol.

I understand Shapeways is a business, and needs to keep afloat, but if they alienate customers who design and buy small items, that won't be helping their bottom line either, they will just go someplace else.

Re: New price structure

designerica — 2011-09-29T19:09:35-00:00

when i cast something, a larger, more complex item requires more sprues. more sprues= more finishing work.

is that NOT true in this case? does a large complex metal sculpture require only one sprue just like my tiny ring?

Re: New price structure

SonOfCann — 2011-09-29T19:16:46-00:00

I can't add anything to the 'miniatures' debate that hasn't already been stated. As much as I understand the position Shapeways are in, I'm sure they can understand why I will be looking elsewhere for a cheaper alternative (and if nothing turns up, I shall be crawling back).

I would like to know if we are to pay shipping fees can we assume our orders will arrive on time? Out of all the orders I've made with Shapeways an alarming amount have been delayed (some a few days, some weeks). It never bothered me because it was free, but once you put a price on something it becomes a service. People don't pay good money for poor service.

Re: New price structure

Youknowwho4eva — 2011-09-29T19:29:11-00:00

SonOfCann wrote on Thu, 29 September 2011 19:16

Depends on your definition of free. The minimum order was $25 before so that there was enough profit in the models to cover the shipping. And if you check the material status page, there are still a few that are working on fixing delays.

Re: New price structure

Bunrattypark — 2011-09-29T19:44:57-00:00

I don't understand this new CSV at all. I have downloaded it. On WSF models, it tells me that a 95cm3 model, price (column H) 75.63 is price Oct 1 (Column I) 39.53.

This hardly means that a €75 model has reduced in price to €39, so what is the figure in Column I for Oct 1, how is it calculated please?

Re: New price structure

Youknowwho4eva — 2011-09-29T19:46:47-00:00

Read nancy's post about the CSV here http://www.shapeways.com/forum/index.php?t=msg&th=6549&a mp;start=0&
apparently there is a calculation error

Re: New price structure

B1lancer — 2011-09-29T20:48:09-00:00

I can see the majority of the responses in this thread are negative, I do hope Shapeways take note of this.

Many people built their businesses(Shops) around the old pricing scheme; To publish a set pricing structure and for several years actively encourage people to build businesses around it, then with almost no notice change the pricing structure which forms the core of peoples' shops and businesses is fundamentally wrong in my opinion.

I am really upset by this, Shapeways is built around a community of people who produce the models, without the people to produce the models Shapeways has no business. How can you change the fundamental structure which people have built businesses around?

Re: New price structure

Hauk2 — 2011-09-29T21:24:32-00:00

How much will postage for Norway be with the new pricing structure? We are a European country, but Non-Eu.

I really hope we fall in the $9,50 category, $19,99 seems a bit stiff....

Regards, Hauk

Re: New price structure

ana — 2011-09-29T22:21:26-00:00

Hey B1lancer (and everyone), we've been very aware of the sentiments towards the change, both positive and negative.

I know for certain members of the community it sucks. You've been using Shapeways, you've crafted your models and your shop, you've learned our website, you've figured out all the nuances of our pricing scheme. For some of you, its been close to 3 years that you've been doing this! Now we're jumping in and changing it on you. It's kinda like when your sandcastle gets kicked.

I'm sorry if it feels like we're all stomping around and pulling the rug out from under you. We don't like making people feel that way.

The change in pricing structure is something that needed to happen. When we started out (long before I spent my time at Shapeways) we had no idea how this idea would turn out exactly. My future team just knew that this 3D printing thing seemed incredible and wanted to open it up to people, which meant making it as inexpensive as possible. We set up a pricing structure that we hoped would make it easy for people make and order what they wanted, and it worked.

As we watched over time though, a few patterns started to emerge. Smaller items were beginning to cost Shapeways a lot of money, whereas larger items were bringing in an oversized margin. Ironically, smaller models were much more labor intensive. It got to be clear that larger models were subsidizing the smaller ones, which didn't seem fair. We needed to make sure that the cost of each model was being covered accurately.

Shapeways is the first company taking a crack at opening up 3D printing at this kind of scale, and creating a reliable supply chain for it. There are bound to be huge unknowns that we stumble across. By making changes in the short term, it makes us more able to innovate, and reach our core goal of driving prices back down (and then lowering them further...). I hope you can understand where we're coming from, and will stick around while we figure this out together.

Re: New price structure

BillBedford — 2011-09-29T22:23:14-00:00

B1lancer wrote on Thu, 29 September 2011 20:48

I am really upset by this, Shapeways is built around a community of people who produce the models, without the people to produce the models Shapeways has no business. How can you change the fundamental structure which people have built businesses around?

.........and if the small pieces that this 'community' has produced generate 10% of the profits and 90% of the problems, just what would you suggest Shapeways should do?

Re: New price structure

B1lancer — 2011-09-29T23:30:18-00:00

BillBedford wrote on Thu, 29 September 2011 22:23

B1lancer wrote on Thu, 29 September 2011 20:48

.........and if the small pieces that this 'community' has produced generate 10% of the profits and 90% of the problems, just what would you suggest Shapeways should do?

It's much more than just Shapeways if I'm honest, it's the whole idea that profit goes before people; That seems to wrong to me. Yes a profit has to be made, but why can't a percentage of that profit be used to subsidise a community and help people?

It's far more upsetting because when I joined Shapeways I could see that many of the ways they did things were inefficient, but the company felt like the community and the platform they provided for small businesses were very much a valued element in the business.

But now many of the users will find their "Shops" inviable due to the price increases, not only does that mean a loss to them but also to their customers. It effects real people, not just stats on a piece of paper.

Now, to me at least, it feels like the community and platform for small businesses Shapeways provide isn't valued for the people, but valued financially as a USP or some other business "Buzzword".

Oh well, I guess Shapeways have to find someway to pay for their 5 million dollar New York HQ.

Kindest Regards,

Jack

Re: New price structure

tebee — 2011-09-30T00:39:57-00:00

Well I must agree it would have been nice to get a little more notice of the changes, but if the old price structure was not making money, then the business is not viable. And if the business is not viable then sooner or later it will not be trading any more and not only will Ana and the rest of the Shapeways crew be out on the streets but we will have no one to produce our beautiful models.

So to say that the current changes have destroyed your business is a fallacy. If the changes had not been made your business would have been dead at some point in the future anyway.

If we are trying to build serious businesses based on Shapeways(or indeed any other external service) we need to have sufficient flexibility and enough margin to absorb these sort of changes in costs.

On the other hand I do sometimes wish that Shapeways would tell us more about which bits of what are doing is good for them and which bits cause them problems. Most people here want Shapeways to succeed and will try and modify our designs to help - if we know what to do !

Tom

Re: New price structure

duann — 2011-09-30T01:53:18-00:00

Thanks Tom,

You got it,

We are trying to give you all as much information as possible so that we can ensure we all optimize our work/processes/designs/shops together to make the most of the potential that online 3D printing provides.

I understand more advance notice in future would be appreciated, we will endeavor to do this.

Take a look at the recent blog post which refers to people building businesses off of online 3D printing, Seth Rodin sets the scene and Cory Doctorow really explores it in Makers, worth the read. Or if you are like me and reading is kinda hard to get done, you can get the audiobook.

Awesomeness.

Thanks all

Re: New price structure

leo rolph — 2011-10-01T06:41:27-00:00

I have only just started at shapeways and have made about 5 orders, mostly single objects like rings, and to me it seems (though my calculations could be wrong) that for the ring that cost $40 to print in silver and deliver previously to Australia will now cost $90 (over 100% increase).. that does seem a little excessive of an increase, and this may be the end of shapeways for me is most of my designs.... though just now i am ordering another ring and in the checkout it still says $40 including delivery and it is the 1st october... have the new prices kicked in yet?

Re: New price structure

stop4stuff — 2011-10-01T06:57:08-00:00

New pricing vomes into effect from 8am EST (roughly 5 hours from the time of this post)

Re: New price structure

lensman — 2011-10-01T12:46:41-00:00

leo rolph wrote on Sat, 01 October 2011 06:41

... for the ring that cost $40 to print in silver and deliver previously to Australia will now cost $90 (over 100% increase)..

If you're in Australia maybe give Ponoko a try. I think they do silver and shipping should be cheaper for you.

Glenn

Re: New price structure

mctrivia — 2011-10-01T13:03:07-00:00

I think I may need to try ponoko. They are more expensive listed on there price but cheaper to my door.

Shapeways is super expensive now.

1cc of silve: $50
shiping: $16.50($6.50 from shapeways another $10 from UPS direct)
thats $75.50 for 1cc. Now if they would just offer USPS from the states shipping would only cost me $10 or so. $4 if they gave me an option to just stick it in an envelope because it is not very fragile.

Re: New price structure

lensman — 2011-10-01T13:36:11-00:00

I totally agree with you mctrivia. It's Shapeways insistance on only using UPS that's killing me. I really think that I may have been priced out of buying from SW and then selling elsewhere online - at least to any appreciable amount of sales to make it worthwhile.

I think I'm going to look at what others have suggested here: Get a nice ring or pendant made up in one of the acrylics and take it to a jeweller to get their prices for making a mold and multiple copies in silver.

Glenn

Re: New price structure

designerica — 2011-10-01T15:04:38-00:00

there are places that will do your wax printing and casting. you don't have to get the plastic at shapeways either.

Re: New price structure

virtox — 2011-10-01T15:20:45-00:00

I did see mentioned in a blog comment that they are working on USPS shipping options.

Re: New price structure

B1lancer — 2011-10-01T15:22:31-00:00

I was of the understanding that the minimum order of $20 was to make it cost effective for Shapeways to ship smaller orders, so how about orders under $20 you must pay shipping, orders over $20 shipping is free like it used to be.

That way Shapeways will make enough to cover their shipping costs on orders under $20 and on orders over $20 it'll still be cost effective for Shapeways to provide the free shipping.

Or if Shapeways are after fewer but bigger orders then why not raise the free shipping cap to $30 or $40?

Would that not make more sense?

Re: New price structure

bluelinegecko — 2011-10-01T15:33:38-00:00

SERIOUS pricing error on Co-creators!!

Going through and editing my markups with the new price structure today. Too many bugs in the CSV tool for me too deal with so doing them manually. Then I realized this error. don't know if it was already reported but it needs to be fixed right away.

Currently shapeways is listing the price on all my co-creator models by figuring the price on the uploaded model and NOT the MAXIMUM VOLUME I entered in the co-creator template. Many of my designs are showing up cheaper when you look at the model or my store front, and then jump to the correct price only after one clicks on the model to purchase it. Basically they are being advertised at a false lower price and this will surely confused and upset new shoppers.

Guys.. I love the idea of Shapeways. Really I do. If you guys were to go private I'd love to by some stock in the company. But this level of serious bugs lately has really got me concerned like a lot of others lately.

You guys are talking about major changes and weekly updates in the future... Here's my question.... What is the rush? I know there's always going to be bugs from time to time and I am all for improvements and updates, but come on guys whats the big push? I think if you guys just slow down the changes these days and do a bit more testing it would make EVERYONE a lot happier.

Re: New price structure

designerica — 2011-10-01T15:40:32-00:00

i think you have it backwards. they were only making back their shipping on orders UNDER $25 (the minimum). I don't think it's unreasonable for us to pay for shipping. i think the problem here is with UPS, not with shapeways. UPS blows chunks.

yes, thankfully someone did say they are working on it.

USPS priority flat rate boxes and padded envelopes start cheaper than these UPS rates, and that's not remotely the cheapest option through them. for larger shipments UPS makes sense. for smaller ones, it doesn't. as long as we are given options, it will be fine.

Hopefully that will happen relatively soon. USPS is clearly a superior option w/i the states for smaller shipments. plus they're in danger of going out of business so lets support them.

Having dealt with UPS about 25 times in the last week i can say that they have the worst customer service i've ever dealt with-- which is saying a lot. even when you get through to a person they never seem to know anything about anything. it's incredible. and that's if you're lucky enough to get someone who is in the US-- half the time it's like talking to a door. though i like my local delivery guy, i'm on a mission to get them out of my life entirely. sorry to rang. it was really a miserable experience. worse than verizon and time warner combined.

Re: New price structure

Magic — 2011-10-01T15:42:54-00:00

@Bluelinegecko This bug with co-creators was already present in the old product inventory management (don't know if it has ever been fixed there). That's why I always try to upload the model that has the maximum volume (for instance a die without numbering).
Perhaps in the meantime you can upload a model with the appropriate volume (even if it is a cube). Just a workaround though, the bug has to be fixed.

Re: New price structure

Bunrattypark — 2011-10-01T15:52:09-00:00

Hear, hear. I have wasted two whole afternoons trying to update my pricing (I have no co-creator models). I have a batch of brand new models to upload, which I have promised to expectant customers, at a costly enough price.

On the very weekend we have a major pricing update, I find Product Inventory Management NOT WORKING. When I add new markups, the total price vanishes, and nothing uploads to the model page. So after two days, I abandon that, and just put flat markup figures directly onto the model page, which refuses to show me the final Euro price, just a useless price ex sales tax and VAT.

THEN I find that even THOSE markups are not saving, and when I log out and check, the earlier price is STILL there.

Shapeways, this is a load of nonsense. I love the service, and absolute kudos for the excellent customer service on the ground. But whoever is in charge of the web facilities needs a kick up the backside, because the whole thing, as far as I can see, is an unmitigated disaster. Every single thing that has been changed has not worked, or has been as flawed and inconvenient as it could be, and I have wasted whole days struggling to understand the new arrangements. If I cannot figure it out, then what hope in hell have occasional customers I might win?

Who decided to initiate a major pricing review the same week that the website and pricing facilities are in a complete state of flux and disrepair?

Shapeways priority right now is to draw a line under these ridiculous changes. Take five days, and guarantee us that in five days this will all be fixed permanently and securely, or if not, will revert to the original design, which at least worked, given it's own limitations. I want to advertise models for sale to customers, and I certainly do not want them coming back complaining that I am advertising one price and they are paying something else.

Re: New price structure

pete — 2011-10-01T15:52:21-00:00

Jack,

the $25 min order was indeed to make sure we were recovering shipment costs. Raising it to $30 or $40 is an option we looked at, but at the same time it would make large models / large shipments overpriced still.

Making orders over xx$ have free shipping is another option, but again it would raise shipping cost for smaller orders.

In the end, what we have now done is expose the actual cost as best as we can.

- There is per model handling cost (cleaning, sorting, packing)
- There is per volume machine and material cost (the printing)
- There is per order shipping cost.

We need to pay for that, so we figure it's best to expose that to everyone. If makes it very transparent.
It is hard for small models if you look at the relative figures, maybe some go up by >200% and we do not like that either. However if you look at the fact these are 1-off products made especially for you, which you can get starting depending on materials at $3.00 or ~$12 (in metal) we still think this is a great deal.

Also mind that we are working hard to automate / streamline handling and printing, so we will translate these improvements to you.

Multiple shipping options can be a solution for some and we are looking to release that feature sooner than originally planned.

Pete

Re: New price structure

cadalu — 2011-10-01T15:54:48-00:00

I'm actually excited about the silver prices. Most of my models went down in price and the ones that went up only did so by a few dollars. Yes, I have to add shipping costs to my total, but if I place a large order, the shipping cost will be spread out over all the pieces and become negligible. I think this will help people who want to resale elsewhere.

Obviously shapeways needs to add usps options for smaller orders and their international clients.

Ponoko does not offer silver (I couldn't find it) and SW is still cheaper than i.materialize. You could save money by having them cast at a foundry of course but for 3d printing I think the prices are still on target.

Edit - Of course I'm not happy with the stainless steel prices, for the quality I'll just forgo the material all together or shop elsewhere, that increase seemed a little steep.

Re: New price structure

bluelinegecko — 2011-10-01T16:00:54-00:00

Wow... I can't see why a bug like this isn't at the top of their priority list.

If my co-creator was different sized rings, etc., then I could.upload a max volume model. Unfortunately most of my co-creators (pet tags, pendants, etc) have engraved text. Therefore a blank tag has the most volume and a rendering of that I don't feel shows the item the way it needs to be presented.

I'm not about to waste that much time re-uploading a bunch of models that don't show the items to their potential when this should be a simple fix for shapeways to make sure the server is reading the appropriate volume, only to have to change them again once the bug is fixed.

Just another example of what I was saying about moving to quickly. Why are we getting updates on the way the forums and all look when these bugs haven't been fixed?

Re: New price structure

Michael Mueller — 2011-10-01T16:16:48-00:00

I made a small ring: old price was $ 3,40. With the new pricing system its $ 8,72. Also I have to add $ 9,50 for shipping!

...Now I get two small rings for $ 26,94.
...Yesterday I got 8 for nearly the same price.

If you are specialized in small objects like rings, this will certainly kill your business.

I understand that its sometimes necessary to increase pricing a little, but nearly 400% is not cool!

Re: New price structure

pete — 2011-10-01T16:18:40-00:00

working on the co-creator bug right now!

Re: New price structure

designerica — 2011-10-01T16:52:57-00:00

anyone at shapeways-

i'm still not clear on the steel "handling" aka startup fee. if i made a really complex and large steel model, wouldn't it have more sprues than a small one? wouldn't it require more complex cleaning and processing? if i put 2 rings in a file, therefore dividing the startup between the two, i realize i am doubling the work for you in theory, but is it really twice as hard to handle two small rings as it is to handle- say- one of bathsheba's large sculptures?

can someone explain this to me?

erica

Re: New price structure

pete — 2011-10-01T17:01:01-00:00

Erica,

of course there are small differences from design to design.
However these have only a small impact on the total handling cost. The handling involves:
- model administration (check whether we can print etc)
- cleaning
- sorting
- packing

and these actions are independent from the complexity or size of the model.

Pete

Re: New price structure

neuralfirings — 2011-10-01T17:04:05-00:00

Hi Erica,

You are right there are some parts of the Stainless Steel labor process that does increase with size, such as the stilts you mention. That is indeed baked into the /cm3 price. However, there are handling costs baked into processes like placing file optimally in tray, which is really size agnostic; sorting items after they come out of the tumbler, which is size agnostic as well. Like many simple models, it doesn't capture 100% of the use cases, but it does capture a good amount of them.

Second, there are bigger structures that require less stilts due to the nature of the model's geometry. From what I understand, the stilts to model ratio is not exactly a linear formula (ie 1 stilt/1 cm3).

Also with processes like depowdering, smaller structures tend to be more fragile, which means more time but also higher breakage rate. Breakage => reprinting => more printer time, more material => most cost.

I hope that clears up some of the mystery. Let me know if you have any more questions?

Thanks,
Nancy

Re: New price structure

B1lancer — 2011-10-01T17:04:28-00:00

Will peoples' attempts to create cheaper models in fact cause handling to be more difficult?

For example:

"Person A" may have 3 models, they are solid structures, a cube for example, they are seperate and thus print fine. In the old system provided the models were uploaded as one file there would be only one $5 handling fee. But with the new handling fee it will be $5 per item?

"Person B" may have the same 3 models, only to obtain a single $5 handling fee he'll join the cubes with small sprues, they are within the guidelines but will break easily due to the large models being linked by a small sprue. He could then request that if a sprue is broken that the models be reprinted.

So surely the costs of handling 3 seperate items is much cheaper than 3 items joined (making them one item) with delicate sprues? Yet the easier handling seperate items will cost $15, and the same models joined with a delicate sprue will only cost $5 in handling.

Am I understanding the new system correctly?

Kindest Regards,

Jack

Re: New price structure

tebee — 2011-10-01T20:08:21-00:00

Shapeways seem to have a good idea about what is a sprue and the fact that it does not matter if it gets broken. I've had several items I've submitted with sprues come back without the sprues .

I now don't bother with the sprues other than the case of very small items which would be a problem to handle individuality and are likely to get lost.

It would be nice to get a definitive answer from Shapeways as whether sprues were necessary or a pain - and in what circumstances ( to sprue or not to sprure, that is the question?) but having asked several times and not got a reply I'm giving it my best guess.

I'm guessing that most of what the start-up charge covers is a per order figure and as long as the items are a reasonable size it doesn't take that much longer to get multiple ones out of the machine and into the bag - it's keeping track of the bag after that is the expensive part, so multiple items per STL are not that much of an issue - yet !

Re: New price structure

designerica — 2011-10-01T21:16:20-00:00

well, i've never built sprues into a design, but as i understood it the bronze infusion process necessitates the creation of a sprew which shapeways then removes-- hence a polished spot on the surface of each piece.

what i'm trying to understand is how this applies to a small item vs. a large item specifically in steel. as i said before, i've had jewelry cast in silver and brass and a larger item always requires more sprues (my honeycomb cuff had 3), which means it takes me much longer to clean up than does a small item with one sprue.

hence, i'm still not clear on the handling cost for steel. i understand that sorting and packaging will take longer if the file includes 50 different parts that need to be cleaned, sorted, and packed. so the handling fee is comprised of:

1. sorting and packing- this process is the same for metal and plastic, right? so sorting and packing must account for the first 1.75 of the "handling" fee. the other 4.75 must be for the cleaning. correct me if i'm reasoning from bad premises.

2. cleaning- i have trouble understanding how cleaning a large complex model is as easy as cleaning a small one, or even two small ones. i've seen the videos. there isn't as much surface area on a small item, so it seems to me that it must be easier to clean. is that wrong?

does cleaning include sprue removal after bronze infusion? if so, does a small model have the same number of sprues as a large model? if i put two very similar (or identical) small models into one file, is it twice as much work as if i had one model that was twice the volume with the same surface area? obviously if i put 25 models into a file (which i've done, primarily to make my own life easier), there is a lot more work to finish it, and i don't want to be essentially stealing from you by doing that, which i prefer not to do and i wonder why i wasn't stopped before.

i really don't mean to be obnoxious about this- i just want to understand.

Re: New price structure

pete — 2011-10-01T22:16:09-00:00

Erica,

first of: there is a difference between casting and infusion. The metal parts are infused, silver is casted. Also infusion probably uses less spruces than casting, but I am not a specialist.

To answer 1) Metal is more in handling because of the 2 step process. First the models are printed, then cured, than removed from powder and infused in oven. Also each part needs spruces and the removal of them later. To do all of this takes quite some manual labor

To answer 2) The removal of the spruces is the only extra handling, cleaning is mostly done using a tumbler -> no manual work or difference between large and small.

To answer the question about multiple models / file -> yes this costs us 2x as much work. We are not enforcing this yet as not many people abuse it, but if abuse increases unfortunately we will have to.

Pete

Re: New price structure

aeron203 — 2011-10-01T22:42:03-00:00

Erica, I think I can help clarify some of your questions. I have a lot of experience operating both powder and deposition printers. While I haven't used a ProMetal setup, I can take an educated guess that maybe could be further 'tempered' by Glenn if he stops in.

I would say, do not sprue metal parts. You are just going to have to accept that very small metal items will raise their price somewhat. I have items that were only a few cm3 before and they did not change much at all. I still think it is a great deal when we are talking about custom, short run production. Sprued metal parts are very likely to break because of the rapid change in thickness. That part will cool first, and the difference in expansion between other parts will cause it to crack. The labor to distinguish, then grind and polish those sprues cannot be given for free. The stem has outlived its use by this stage and might break, but it doesn't matter. When you take into account your labor of removing your sprues and the fact that you won't be able to offer other finishes, it pretty much rules that out for Stainless Steel. Because of the extreme likelihood of failure, I would reject all sprued metal parts if I were reviewing models for Shapeways, except in very specific cases, and they would need a very experienced person to recognize those cases. The best economical action is to order many at once, which you already do.

From a depowdering perspective I can say that removing a part with exposed fine details from a powder bed can easily take ten times more labor. I would also reject parts like that, regardless of the fact that they barely hit the minimum wall thickness, otherwise the cost for all parts would have to rise. I always think about these issues when coming up with the design. My Time Keeper model has 1.8mm elements, but it also has a thick ring around the outside that makes it easy to pick up between the thumb and forefinger and brush it off without breaking it. Also, all of these thin elements are supported after distances of no more than about 1.5cm, and are always supported on both ends, making them far less likely to break, and they are thicker in the direction parallel to how impacting forces are most likely to be applied. In retrospect I regret not explaining all these things to people because some very unlikely designs were created that simply focused on the numbers in the design rules, when the reality is obviously much more complicated.

All in all, it is the attempts to stretch the design rules and get around pricing structures that led to the dramatic price rise for tiny items. This became pretty obvious several months ago after the FUD tests. I know people were not trying to abuse the system, it's just that our attempts to make ultra-economical models broke the Shapeways pricing system. I have to take partial responsibility for doing things that raised peoples expectations without explaining exactly how and why a particular design works. I'm doing my best to rectify that but there is nothing I can do to hide the fact that the reality is indeed complicated and takes some thinking and work if you are going to squeeze out every penny. Please don't describe it as Shapeways "Forcing" you to cheat the system, because as we have seen, that will simply break the pricing model and force the prices even higher, when what we should be doing is recognizing which behaviors are causing the problems and keep it in mind when we create designs moving forward.

3D printing does allow us to do amazing things and the price is far better than any other alternative, but we are going to have to move just little farther from the limits if this is going to work.

Re: New price structure

pete — 2011-10-01T22:56:39-00:00

Hey Aaron,

really appreciate your feedback.

You summarize exactly what the situation is: we are trying to be as economically as possible. If we all help in the right direction we can get the service more and more efficient and thus lower prices, which is what everybody wants.

Pete

Re: New price structure

B1lancer — 2011-10-02T00:54:14-00:00

pete wrote on Sat, 01 October 2011 22:16

To answer the question about multiple models / file -> yes this costs us 2x as much work. We are not enforcing this yet as not many people abuse it, but if abuse increases unfortunately we will have to.

But of course people will "abuse" it because it makes the models cheaper, and now with the additional postage costs even more people will try to offset the costs of the postage by creating a single model file with multiple models in.

What I don't understand is, previously the cost of the model (Start Up Fee + cm3 of material) was the whole price, so a % of the Start Up Fee + cm3 price must have been used to pay for the postage. Yes?

So now we pay for the postage why hasn't the price of postage been deducted from the Start Up Free and cm3 price?

So now we effectively pay postage twice?

Re: New price structure

SIXTHSCALE — 2011-10-02T01:34:13-00:00

All of these price increases should have been done by simply increasing the cost per cubic centimeter of each material...

this insane micromanaging of pricing with all of the individual materials having different startup fees makes your site completely incomprehensible to the average customer who doesn't have the time to spend countless hours here on the forums or in the materials pages... keep it simple.

so what if larger items were subsidizing the handling of the smaller ones... the smaller items and orders were subsidizing the shipping costs of the larger heavier orders... so it should have evened out well enough for any problems to be solved by a simple increase in materials pricing per cubic centimeter.

a huge portion of your handling problems and costs come from the ludicrous overpackaging of each order... the individually bagged and stapled header cards are completely unnecessary... especially when many of my items were wrapped in tissue paper inside those cards rendering them invisible anyway despite the pretty packaging....and having orders ship in a ton of separate boxes for the same order is just wasteful and silly.... especially internationally.

Re: New price structure

ana — 2011-10-02T04:43:57-00:00

SIXTHSCALE, our handling fees are actually set based on careful calculations, which are independent of the cubic centimeter material cost. Think about it -- models need to get touched, sorted, planned in the printer tray regardless of their size. This is the labor cost, and the handling fee is set to cover that. By revealing this unique cost, we're looking to offer more transparency into the process, but I do understand why the info may seem overly complicated. We'll make a point of trying to explain that more effectively.

When it comes to overpackaging, I don't know if you saw the recent blog post or the blurb in this month's newsletter, but a much more efficient version of our packaging is being rolled out now. We're starting with 25% of all orders, and increasing it from there.

Re: New price structure

mctrivia — 2011-10-02T04:55:28-00:00

Guys stop complaining about the startup costs. Here is reality. Every production environment works on a C*XY cost base. It costs C dollars to start and finish the process and Y dollars per unit to make them. Shapeways is just trying to calculate the actual cost of producing our printsl. Those of you that have had your models go up in price it means shapeways was lossing money on your prints. For those that it has gone down it means shapeways was making extra and this was offseting the models that were losing money. The startup costs here are pretty small. When I get custom made I pay $80+0.5*cubic inches. Custom silicon chips have a startup of $100,000. Most of the startups here are only a few bucks.

There are only 3 things that really bother me. the first is that they lie about shipping cost by using UPS. The cost to ship a package to canada is $16.50. They charge shapeways $6.50 and they charge the recipient direct $10. This is not completely shapeways fault as it is UPS policy to charge both sender and recipient for shipping but it sucks for those that do not realise that the shipping is actually much higher then it is. An option to use USPS would be a hugh improvement because at least they only charge the sebder which means shapeways will see the full cost and as a result our customers will see the true cost of shipping.

The second is that shapeways only gave us a very short notice. Most industries give 90 days notice of price change so that businesses can make ajustments accordingly. 1 to 2 weeks is not enough time.

The third is the fact the programming staff at shapeways especially the new CPO are inept and the CPO should be canned for his total disregard for update standards. The fact shapeways puts up an update once without proper testing is bad. The fact they have put them up multiple times without testing the last 2 of which were within a month would have the CPO canned in any other web company. When you put an update up that is full of bugs it effects us all. They need to be thoroughly tested and only minor bugs should ever make it through the cracks.

So in conclusion startup costs are a necessity. Fire the person responsible for making updates live without testing them first(and testing means having a proper check list of steps to go through which includes making live where the community can help check for bugs)

Re: New price structure

stop4stuff — 2011-10-02T07:30:48-00:00

Hauk2 wrote on Thu, 29 September 2011 21:24

How much will postage for Norway be with the new pricing structure? We are a European country, but Non-Eu.

I really hope we fall in the $9,50 category, $19,99 seems a bit stiff....

Regards, Hauk

Hi Hauk,

From the shopping cart, EU shipping price is applied to;
"All EU Countries, Switzerland, Norway, San Marino, Vatican, Andorra, Liechenstein"

Paul

Re: New price structure

BillBedford — 2011-10-02T08:31:07-00:00

mctrivia wrote on Sun, 02 October 2011 04:55

There are only 3 things that really bother me. the first is that they lie about shipping cost by using UPS. The cost to ship a package to canada is $16.50. They charge shapeways $6.50 and they charge the recipient direct $10. This is not completely shapeways fault as it is UPS policy to charge both sender and recipient for shipping but it sucks for those that do not realise that the shipping is actually much higher then it is. An option to use USPS would be a hugh improvement because at least they only charge the sebder which means shapeways will see the full cost and as a result our customers will see the true cost of shipping

UPS collect import duties for your Government and are allowed to charge a brokerage fee for this 'service'. This is standard practice through out the world. If you choose to use USPS you would still have to pay the import duty and a brokerage fee.

Those of us in the EU have the privilege of paying Dutch VAT, as part of the price Shapeways charge us, instead of our own country's import Duty.

Re: New price structure

tebee — 2011-10-02T10:12:33-00:00

There are so many variable with the cost producing and distributing our models that Shapeways can never be completely fair much as they might want to be.

At some point if you try to factor in every cost not only does the cost of calculating the cost become a significant factor but the process becomes so opaque that the buyer is confused about how the total he is being expected to pay is derived and may see it as unfair anyway.

So the best they can do is some sort of reasonable approximation that rewards people who do it in whatever way is most cost-effective for them to produce and penalizes people who do things in ways which add costs.

So they may make more profit on some peoples orders than others - well life is like that. Unless you are a government contractor working on a cost plus basis you profit margin is not going to be the same on each order.

So although, to some of you, Shapeways charges may seem a bit arbitrary I think they are on the whole OK, fair and, above all, understandable. You know what something is going to cost, it's then up to you to decide if you can make sufficient margin on that for you to make a profit.

Tom

Re: New price structure

B1lancer — 2011-10-02T10:12:55-00:00

My question still hasn't be answered?

Old FUD Price: $5 Startup + $3.49 per cm3, Postage taken as a % from the FUD Price.

New FUD Price: $5 Startup + $3.49 per cm3, Postage NOT deducted from this as a % but charged in addition!

Why are we not seeing the postage percentage deducted from the new prices when we are now paying for postage seperately????

Re: New price structure

stop4stuff — 2011-10-02T10:26:51-00:00

The old pricing structure did not have postage as a % of the model cost, the deal was $25 minimum order with shipping included. You might interpret that as a % of the model cost, but what if the model cost was only $15? With the new pricing structure the total cost is slightly less (or more, depending which part of the world the model is shupped to.)

.

Re: New price structure

glehn — 2011-10-02T11:27:08-00:00

BillBedford wrote on Sun, 02 October 2011 08:31

That's not completely accurate. At least here in Brazil, if the package is sent by USPS, there are only import taxes. No brokerage fees.
Besides, brazilian Customs taxes mail packages based on sampling. Courier packages, such as UPS, are always taxed.
So, usually, my orders when sent by UPS cost me 100% more in taxes and fees. If they were sent by USPS it would be only 60% and as they don't tax every single mail package, there is always a chance of not being taxed (on my other internet purchases usually I am only taxed 1/3 of my orders).

Although I understand the reasons why Shapeways would change their pricing structure, I can't help to feel frustrated with this, specially with the shipping charges to the rest of the world. USD $19.90 seems a lot to ship a small item. I really hope USPS becomes an option soon.

Re: New price structure

lensman — 2011-10-02T13:09:41-00:00

BillBedford wrote on Sun, 02 October 2011 08:31

Absolutely NOT true. Over the last months I have been stung by UPS buying supplies from the US and shipped to Canada. I then made an effort to seek out companies that only shipped by USPS and I saved a TON of money. The goods themselves may have been slightly higher but I saved overall cost because I did NOT pay any courier fee, import duty or brokerage fees.

Yes, I do understand that some packages do get "caught" and taxes have to be paid but so far I have been lucky.

Glenn

Re: New price structure

mctrivia — 2011-10-02T13:10:54-00:00

I have no problem paying the 5% tax UPS charges. But only UPS charges an additional $10 on every package.

Re: New price structure

lensman — 2011-10-02T13:14:10-00:00

glehn wrote on Sun, 02 October 2011 11:27

... specially with the shipping charges to the rest of the world. USD $19.90 seems a lot to ship a small item. I really hope USPS becomes an option soon.

Yes, that fee would break me, especially with more charges at the door.

We can only hope that 3D printing picks up steam and that very soon there will be printing services in our own countries. I know that if I had a ton of money to throw around I would be investing in this business!

Glenn

Re: New price structure

glehn — 2011-10-02T13:22:43-00:00

lensman wrote on Sun, 02 October 2011 13:14

We can only hope that 3D printing picks up steam and that very soon there will be printing services in our own countries

That would be great, unfortunately I don't think it will happen here in Brazil any time soon...