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Forum: 3D modelers for hire
 Topic: Artist/Designer for hire! Holiday Special!
Holiday Special and Monthly Update! [message #100009 is a reply to message #97655 ] Thu, 02 October 2014 01:53 UTC
avatar landestroyer  is currently offline landestroyer
Messages: 11
Registered: April 2014
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Hi everyone!

I'm currently offering a special price on my modeling services from now until Dec 1st!


index.php?t=getfile&id=73015&private=0


I didn't forget about Halloween! Here are some models I had printed in September.

https://images4.sw-cdn.net/model/picture/625x465_2610455_6590942_1410727836.jpg
https://images.shapeways.com/model/picture/625x465_2485702_6516307_1410235921.jpg

Currently Printing:

https://images3.sw-cdn.net/model/picture/625x465_2705978_6776836_1411767057.jpg
https://images1.sw-cdn.net/model/picture/625x465_2719029_6842036_1412193534.jpg

[Updated on: Thu, 02 October 2014 02:04 UTC]

Forum: Shapeways Shops
 Topic: Managing Your Markup During Repricing
Re: Managing Your Markup During Repricing [message #100016 is a reply to message #99875 ] Thu, 02 October 2014 05:01 UTC
avatar henryseg  is currently offline henryseg
Messages: 212
Registered: July 2008
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I'm here to register my annoyance that the .csv file has entries for prices of the form "1,234.56". Splitting a line of the csv file with the comma character fails, because of the comma inside of such a price. My code to interpret the file would be a lot simpler if the above was written as 1234.56.
Re: Managing Your Markup During Repricing [message #100018 is a reply to message #99519 ] Thu, 02 October 2014 05:59 UTC
avatar draw  is currently offline draw
Messages: 75
Registered: March 2013
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I was thinking about work arounds to prevent my mark ups from being altered by your algorithms on Oct 7th. Could we possibly put our stores into a certain state so the markup values are not changed? For example if we set items in the store to be 'not for sale' before October 7th and then set them to back to 'for sale' on October 8th, might something like that prevent the changes? Toggling one check box in each model would be a lot easier than changing back all of the offered materials in every model that is affected. There must be some esoteric way to option out of the present scheme.

---------------------
ETA:
In addition apparently some models are reflecting incorrect new base prices pricing because of calculation bugs (see my ornament discussion in the big price change thread). When will it be safe to download the cvs file to archive a valid bug-free data record of stuff?

[Updated on: Thu, 02 October 2014 06:09 UTC]

Forum: It arrived!
 Topic: Recent order arrived with issues
Re: Recent order arrived with issues [message #100008 is a reply to message #99758 ] Thu, 02 October 2014 01:43 UTC
avatar lazyhusky  is currently offline lazyhusky
Messages: 4
Registered: January 2014
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mkroeker wrote on Wed, 01 October 2014 08:41

FCS and FCP will certainly use different printers, so one should not affect the other.
I wonder if you chose "print it anyway" on the FCS model by any chance ?


No I did not choose the option but it is my first time printing these 2 models.
 Topic: the weasel
Re: the weasel [message #100019 is a reply to message #99931 ] Thu, 02 October 2014 06:15 UTC
avatar tinarity  is currently offline tinarity
Messages: 53
Registered: July 2014
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thank you!
Forum: General Discussion
 Topic: I'm looking for the Best free and commercials S/W for creating 3D imaging from 2D pics! Any tips?
Re: I'm looking for the Best free and commercials S/W for creating 3D imaging from 2D pics! Any tips [message #100021 is a reply to message #99484 ] Thu, 02 October 2014 06:49 UTC
avatar GandyGandy  is currently offline GandyGandy
Messages: 5
Registered: April 2014
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Hey Universe becoming,
could you please write to my e-mail: gandy_gandy@hotmail.com
This is an issue I'd like to discuss with you.

Thanks!
G.
 Topic: Ideas about cufflinks with names on it.
Re: Ideas about cufflinks with names on it. [message #100034 is a reply to message #99991 ] Thu, 02 October 2014 07:26 UTC
avatar MitchellJetten is currently online MitchellJetten
Messages: 721
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In that case my apologies :D

The results look great!


Kind regards,

Mitchell Jetten
Customer Service Coordinator
Shapeways
Re: Ideas about cufflinks with names on it. [message #100041 is a reply to message #99487 ] Thu, 02 October 2014 07:37 UTC
avatar MayCrown  is currently offline MayCrown
Messages: 103
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We're happy to be wrong :) in this case.


If chance will have me King, why, chance may crown me without my stir.
Forum: Bug Reporting
 Topic: File Upload Time-out
Re: File Upload Time-out [message #100046 is a reply to message #98687 ] Thu, 02 October 2014 08:04 UTC
avatar abite2  is currently offline abite2
Messages: 20
Registered: June 2013
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Is this only my problem?
Now, I cannot use Shapeways' upload system.
So often...
I tried to upload files in several areas and with several computers.
Same issue.

Technicians, please check it. Does it happen only to me?

  • Attachment: time-out.JPG
    (Size: 85.23KB, Downloaded 1 time(s))

 Topic: There is a lot of fake spam "Favorited by"-ing going on
Re: There is a lot of fake spam "Favorited by"-ing going on [message #100036 is a reply to message #99987 ] Thu, 02 October 2014 07:27 UTC
avatar MitchellJetten is currently online MitchellJetten
Messages: 721
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Thanks guys,

I disabled the sunnylee account :)


Kind regards,

Mitchell Jetten
Customer Service Coordinator
Shapeways
Re: There is a lot of fake spam "Favorited by"-ing going on [message #100050 is a reply to message #100036 ] Thu, 02 October 2014 08:27 UTC
avatar Wahtah  is currently offline Wahtah
Messages: 112
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here's the rest of them:
https://www.shapeways.com/designer/danielfinn/favorites
https://www.shapeways.com/designer/juliusmccann/favorites
https://www.shapeways.com/designer/philiptreswrth/favorites
https://www.shapeways.com/designer/andychipp/favorites
https://www.shapeways.com/designer/michaellamb/favorites
Forum: Official Announcements
 Topic: Repricing Strong & Flexible Plastic and Steel
Re: Repricing Strong & Flexible Plastic and Steel [message #100004 is a reply to message #100003 ] Thu, 02 October 2014 00:08 UTC
avatar henryseg  is currently offline henryseg
Messages: 212
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I am very, very confused about how the machine space is calculated. I tried putting a wire through the holes in one of my sets of puzzle pieces, to reduce the number of parts from 9 to 1. This was successful, but somehow increased the machine space from 134 cubic cm to 204 cubic cm, negating any of the gains in labor.

(These are models 2726518 and 2726499 if someone at Shapeways wants to take a look.)

index.php?t=getfile&id=73007&private=0
index.php?t=getfile&id=73008&private=0
index.php?t=getfile&id=73009&private=0

Re: Repricing Strong & Flexible Plastic and Steel [message #100005 is a reply to message #100004 ] Thu, 02 October 2014 00:57 UTC
avatar stannum  is currently offline stannum
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henryseg, you will have to find an arrangement that minimizes "air". Imagine you are wrapping all the parts with plastic film. Separate, the parts have 9 volumes, but joined by the stick, they must be near each other, or the air from one to another counts (the system doesn't push them) for the total. If you can't get the extra "air" to be less than 57 cm3, forget it. 1.50 * 8 parts = 12 dollars, 12 / 0.21 = 57.14.

The system is a puzzle on itself.
Re: Repricing Strong & Flexible Plastic and Steel [message #100006 is a reply to message #99524 ] Thu, 02 October 2014 00:57 UTC
avatar chainmaildude  is currently offline chainmaildude
Messages: 1
Registered: October 2013
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Pete's 3 part series on SLS Nylon printing was very informative. I was following with great interest, because I was preparing to put in some rather large orders of models having multi-part shells. I was initially concerned as I read that perhaps a price change might be coming, but then I read this line from the Part 3: https://www.shapeways.com/blog/archives/17704-3d-print-in-ny lon-with-selective-laser-sintering-part-3.html

"Next week I will cover how our current price model covers these costs and how we can optimize."

That was on September 5. So I checked back in the next week on September 12. Nothing. The next week, September 19. Nothing. The next week, September 26. Nothing. I started wondering if perhaps he meant 'Next month'. Then came the September 30 announcement.

After looking at my models, and realizing that I needed to either sprue or loop to keep the price viable, I started wondering if perhaps Pete had started that blog post and realized that in many cases the current price model didn't cover the costs.

At the same time, I started doing some back of the envelope calculations of my own.

So, considering that the bounding box is 650 x 350 x 550 mm, but that it is preferred to keep the depth to 250 mm to allow a given print tray to be completed in a day, that means that the available space in the printer would be 65 x 35 x 25 cm, or 56,875 cm3.

So lets say that in a given print run, shapeways is able to pack the tray so that 90% of the machine space is utilized. The amounts to approximately 50,000 cm3 @ $0.21 per cm3, so they are bringing in $10,500 per print run for the machine space.

So then, assuming that the average model is 10% dense (probably on the high side, though all of my models are in the 30% neighborhood), then that means 5,000 cm3 of material @ $0.28 per cm3, so bringing in $1,400 for materials

Lastly, let's assume that there are 300 shells in the tray. That's $450 for labor.

So, on the revenue side, approximately $12,500 per day, per printer. Assuming 90% uptime on the printer, that's a little over $4,000,000 in revenue annually per printer.

Making the same assumptions of the old pricing, at $1.40 per cm3, that's $7,000 for materials, and assuming that there are 150 models, $225 for handling, so $7,225 per day, per printer. Same assumptions, that's $2,300,000 in revenue annually.

So obviously the new model is better for Shapeways (as it should be). I have no idea where the overhead sits, or material costs, or utilities etc sit, but I'm guessing they've got more money savvy folks than myself looking at that and helping them set these prices.

So, if Shapeways was losing money on WSF before, hopefully now they are sustainable in WSF, with a close to 80% increase in revenue coming off the printers, assuming they still have enough business to keep those things busy, which I expect they do (If they didn't expect to lose some business as a result of this, then maybe I gave the money savvy folks too much credit above).

I'm irked mostly by the 7 day warning, and the missed follow-up to the September 5 blog seemingly becoming this announcement. Ultimately I'm still sustainable on shapeways now that I've put my parts on a rail, but the change has prodded me to look into some alternatives, since I order my products in bulk and sell them on my own web site. It may be that Shapeways is the fastest and most cost effective for prototypes and small items, but if the quality of some of the other services out there is good enough, I can see moving my production to those services for large print runs which will cost less than half as much as Shapeways will. And perhaps that is as it should be. Shapeways may wish to focus on small products and small print runs, while leaving the larger print runs and larger products to other companies. Every company has to decide what its niche is, and who its most important customers are. Very rarely can a company be all things to all people, especially in an industry like 3D printing that serves so many other interests.

All the best, Shapeways,

Andre
Re: Repricing Strong & Flexible Plastic and Steel [message #100007 is a reply to message #99524 ] Thu, 02 October 2014 01:39 UTC
avatar draw  is currently offline draw
Messages: 75
Registered: March 2013
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I noticed the biggest change in price coming was in one of my airy ornaments. That made me wonder what would happen to ornaments made with the Shapeways ornament creator. So here's a new 50mm ornament I pumped out today with details.

https://images1.sw-cdn.net/model/picture/625x465_2726626_6845561_1412211947.jpg

ORIGINAL BOUNDS
(in) 2.016w x 2.157d x 2.016h

(cm) 5.12w x 5.478d x 5.12h

ORIENTED BOUNDS
(in) 2.009w x 2.009d x 2.009h

(cm) 5.102w x 5.104d x 5.102h

Part Count 1

Material Volume 8.2940cm3

Machine Space 25.1619cm3

Density 6.24%

Now $13.11
Soon $9.11


The price is going down. So far so good!
------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------------------------
My old 50mm ornament with details.

https://images2.sw-cdn.net/model/picture/625x465_1564879_1814513_1386885717.jpg

ORIGINAL BOUNDS
(in) 1.913w x 1.913d x 2.165h

(cm) 4.86w x 4.86d x 5.5h

ORIENTED BOUNDS
(in) 1.979w x 1.913d x 1.997h

(cm) 5.026w x 4.86d x 5.072h

Part Count 1

Material Volume 3.6150cm3

Machine Space 71.8854cm3

Density 2.92%

Now $6.56
Soon $17.61

------------------------------------------------------------ -----------------

This is completely unacceptable. The two parts are roughly the same size, same part count (1), mine uses less material but mine also has a whacky increase in Machine Space of almost a factor of THREE! My ornament even has a chance of being able to offer inside space to other people's models while the Shapeways ornament does not since it is more solid. What's up Shapeways? I believe you need to examine your algorithms before having this go active.

Shapeways 50mm ornament:
Now $13.11
Soon $9.11


My 50mm ornament with a dangly inside:
Now $6.56
Soon $17.61


There is no way my ornament should be costing more than the other by a factor of 1.933.
Re: Repricing Strong & Flexible Plastic and Steel [message #100010 is a reply to message #100007 ] Thu, 02 October 2014 02:05 UTC
avatar AlanHudson  is currently offline AlanHudson
Messages: 145
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Thanks Draw, I appreciate you reporting this. We did find this bug today as well and have a fix almost ready.
There is a problem when certain models close completely where we undercalculate the volume. It looks to affect less then 1% of models.
For an 80mm ball you can expect a machine volume around 268. For a 50mm ball it would be 65.
This means the minimum prices for those would be 268 * 0.21 = $56.28 and 65 * 0.21 = $13.65. I was one of the primary developers
on the holiday ornament creator and sadly without some significant changes its likely not useful. Perhaps a hole in
bottom would change the dynamics.


draw wrote on Thu, 02 October 2014 01:39

I noticed the biggest change in price coming was in one of my airy ornaments. That made me wonder what would happen to ornaments made with the Shapeways ornament creator. So here's a new 50mm ornament I pumped out today with details.

https://images1.sw-cdn.net/model/picture/625x465_2726626_6845561_1412211947.jpg

ORIGINAL BOUNDS
(in) 2.016w x 2.157d x 2.016h

(cm) 5.12w x 5.478d x 5.12h

ORIENTED BOUNDS
(in) 2.009w x 2.009d x 2.009h

(cm) 5.102w x 5.104d x 5.102h

Part Count 1

Material Volume 8.2940cm3

Machine Space 25.1619cm3

Density 6.24%

Now $13.11
Soon $9.11


The price is going down. So far so good!
------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------------------------
My old 50mm ornament with details.

https://images2.sw-cdn.net/model/picture/625x465_1564879_1814513_1386885717.jpg

ORIGINAL BOUNDS
(in) 1.913w x 1.913d x 2.165h

(cm) 4.86w x 4.86d x 5.5h

ORIENTED BOUNDS
(in) 1.979w x 1.913d x 1.997h

(cm) 5.026w x 4.86d x 5.072h

Part Count 1

Material Volume 3.6150cm3

Machine Space 71.8854cm3

Density 2.92%

Now $6.56
Soon $17.61

------------------------------------------------------------ -----------------

This is completely unacceptable. The two parts are roughly the same size, same part count (1), mine uses less material but mine also has a whacky increase in Machine Space of almost a factor of THREE! My ornament even has a chance of being able to offer inside space to other people's models while the Shapeways ornament does not since it is more solid. What's up Shapeways? I believe you need to examine your algorithms before having this go active.

Shapeways 50mm ornament:
Now $13.11
Soon $9.11


My 50mm ornament with a dangly inside:
Now $6.56
Soon $17.61


There is no way my ornament should be costing more than the other by a factor of 1.933.


Director 3D Tools
Re: Repricing Strong & Flexible Plastic and Steel [message #100011 is a reply to message #100005 ] Thu, 02 October 2014 02:18 UTC
avatar henryseg  is currently offline henryseg
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Thanks stannum that makes some sense. So the thinking is that Shapeways technicians may be able to pack things more efficiently (with my and others' parts) than I can alone. That makes some sense, although frankly I'd be impressed!
Re: Repricing Strong & Flexible Plastic and Steel [message #100012 is a reply to message #100010 ] Thu, 02 October 2014 02:40 UTC
avatar draw  is currently offline draw
Messages: 75
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Does that mean the soon price of the SW ornament is incorrectly low and mine is actually increasing by $11? Zowee! Thank goodness it's an outdated 2013 ornament.


AlanHudson wrote on Thu, 02 October 2014 02:05

Thanks Draw, I appreciate you reporting this. We did find this bug today as well and have a fix almost ready.
There is a problem when certain models close completely where we undercalculate the volume. It looks to affect less then 1% of models.
For an 80mm ball you can expect a machine volume around 268. For a 50mm ball it would be 65.
This means the minimum prices for those would be 268 * 0.21 = $56.28 and 65 * 0.21 = $13.65. I was one of the primary developers
on the holiday ornament creator and sadly without some significant changes its likely not useful. Perhaps a hole in
bottom would change the dynamics.


draw wrote on Thu, 02 October 2014 01:39



Shapeways 50mm ornament:
Now $13.11
Soon $9.11


My 50mm ornament with a dangly inside:
Now $6.56
Soon $17.61


There is no way my ornament should be costing more than the other by a factor of 1.933.




[Updated on: Thu, 02 October 2014 02:41 UTC]

Re: Repricing Strong & Flexible Plastic and Steel [message #100013 is a reply to message #100011 ] Thu, 02 October 2014 03:00 UTC
avatar henryseg  is currently offline henryseg
Messages: 212
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Yes, it seems to me that the algorithm is optimistic about how well the Shapeways technicians can pack the build versus how well I can pack my pieces. Here is an example. There are 7 pieces packed into a flared cylindrical shape, and two C shapes. In the first image below I have carefully wrapped the C shapes around the flared cylinder to make a single compact ball. In the second they are hanging out into space, to allow the shrink wrapping to do it's best.

The second design comes in cheaper than the first. Is it plausible that the second design is better for Shapeways than the first?

index.php?t=getfile&id=73016&private=0
index.php?t=getfile&id=73017&private=0

Re: Repricing Strong & Flexible Plastic and Steel [message #100014 is a reply to message #99524 ] Thu, 02 October 2014 03:21 UTC
avatar leoparder is currently online leoparder
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Please, could you explain us why the alumide sees such a cost increase ? Absolutely all my models have their price increase (a lot) in alumide.

[Updated on: Thu, 02 October 2014 03:22 UTC]

Re: Repricing Strong & Flexible Plastic and Steel [message #100015 is a reply to message #99524 ] Thu, 02 October 2014 03:39 UTC
avatar MichaelAtOz  is currently offline MichaelAtOz
Messages: 13
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a. I suspect that generally flattening designs, and compacting them in two dimensions will minimise the wasted space in the shrinkwrap, having intermittent spikes/protruding things into free space will cause that space to be enveloped, unless the gaps are > 40mm, or unless you can fit other parts into that envelope.

b. "We're only able to put parts inside openings of at least 40mm across."

Is that 40mm diameter (with < or > 40mm recess), 40mm x (<40mm) rectangle, 40mm square hole with <40mm recess, or 40mm cube?
Re: Repricing Strong & Flexible Plastic and Steel [message #100017 is a reply to message #100013 ] Thu, 02 October 2014 05:37 UTC
avatar AmLachDesigns is currently online AmLachDesigns
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@henryseg and @stannum, this reminds me of the 'protein folding game' Foldit, http://fold.it/portal/

Off topic, I know, but I'm bored with SW's snafu.
Re: Repricing Strong & Flexible Plastic and Steel [message #100020 is a reply to message #100017 ] Thu, 02 October 2014 06:39 UTC
avatar draw  is currently offline draw
Messages: 75
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AmLachDesigns wrote on Thu, 02 October 2014 05:37



Off topic, I know, but I'm bored with SW's snafu.



This is a good book to read even if you don't manage a website.


http://www.amazon.com/Dont-Make-Think-Revisited-Usability/dp /0321965515

Quote:


Since Don't Make Me Think was first published in 2000, hundreds of thousands of Web designers and developers have relied on usability guru Steve Krug's guide to help them understand the principles of intuitive navigation and information design. Witty, commonsensical, and eminently practical, it's one of the best-loved and most recommended books on the subject.

Now Steve returns with fresh perspective to reexamine the principles that made Don't Make Me Think a classic–with updated examples and a new chapter on mobile usability. And it's still short, profusely illustrated...and best of all–fun to read.

If you've read it before, you'll rediscover what made Don't Make Me Think so essential to Web designers and developers around the world. If you've never read it, you'll see why so many people have said it should be required reading for anyone working on Web sites.


"After reading it over a couple of hours and putting its ideas to work for the past five years, I can say it has done more to improve my abilities as a Web designer than any other book."
–Jeffrey Zeldman, author of Designing with Web Standards

Re: Repricing Strong & Flexible Plastic and Steel [message #100022 is a reply to message #100011 ] Thu, 02 October 2014 06:51 UTC
avatar MitchellJetten is currently online MitchellJetten
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henryseg wrote on Thu, 02 October 2014 02:18

Thanks stannum that makes some sense. So the thinking is that Shapeways technicians may be able to pack things more efficiently (with my and others' parts) than I can alone. That makes some sense, although frankly I'd be impressed!


Goodmorning all.

Note that most of the tray packing is done automatically.
By splitting all your parts and mix them together with the 100 other models in the tray we can get a higher density than if we keep your model as is.
(not in all cases, but sometimes splitting the parts and have them spread over the tray really helps us)


AmLachDesigns wrote on Thu, 02 October 2014 05:37


Off topic, I know, but I'm bored with SW's snafu.


I'm sorry to hear I make you feel that way :(

[Updated on: Thu, 02 October 2014 06:54 UTC]


Kind regards,

Mitchell Jetten
Customer Service Coordinator
Shapeways
Re: Repricing Strong & Flexible Plastic and Steel [message #100023 is a reply to message #100022 ] Thu, 02 October 2014 07:01 UTC
avatar HOLDEN8702 is currently online HOLDEN8702
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MitchellJetten wrote on Thu, 02 October 2014 06:51


......Note that most of the tray packing is done automatically.
......



Then really why the machine space price is different when I make the "tetris" with my model?

index.php?t=getfile&id=73059&private=0

This confim that YOU ARE INCREASING THE PRICES WITHOUT A REAL REASON!

index.php?t=getfile&id=73058&private=0

Re: Repricing Strong & Flexible Plastic and Steel [message #100024 is a reply to message #100014 ] Thu, 02 October 2014 07:03 UTC
avatar MitchellJetten is currently online MitchellJetten
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leoparder wrote on Thu, 02 October 2014 03:21

Please, could you explain us why the alumide sees such a cost increase ? Absolutely all my models have their price increase (a lot) in alumide.



Hi Leoparder,

This is due to the price per cc for Metallic Plastic which is more than our WSF price per cc:
$1.50/part
$0.56/material cm3
$0.32/machine cm3

Best,
Mitchell


Kind regards,

Mitchell Jetten
Customer Service Coordinator
Shapeways
Re: Repricing Strong & Flexible Plastic and Steel [message #100025 is a reply to message #100022 ] Thu, 02 October 2014 07:03 UTC
avatar PenistoneRailwayWorks  is currently offline PenistoneRailwayWorks
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MitchellJetten wrote on Thu, 02 October 2014 06:51

henryseg wrote on Thu, 02 October 2014 02:18

Thanks stannum that makes some sense. So the thinking is that Shapeways technicians may be able to pack things more efficiently (with my and others' parts) than I can alone. That makes some sense, although frankly I'd be impressed!


Goodmorning all.

Note that most of the tray packing is done automatically.
By splitting all your parts and mix them together with the 100 other models in the tray we can get a higher density than if we keep your model as is.
(not in all cases, but sometimes splitting the parts and have them spread over the tray really helps us)




That makes a mockery of some of the other suggestions in this thread and the pricing model in general. Basically you are saying that if the model has multiple parts then it is better for you if you can move them around, but that also leads to a higher print cost for us as the shrink wrap wraps each part rather than the packed collection -- i.e. the nested cups model. Also if it is easier/cheeper for you to spread out multiple parts across the tray why are you charging us a per part cost? If we use the loop/cage idea we will reduce the cost but make your life harder and your costs will increase. Yet again this is what you are suggesting and what the pricing model will force many designed into.

Essentially this just shows that the pricing model has nothing to do with the actual process of printing many of the models. It's just a shame the PR spiel wasn't more honest about the reason behind the change from the start.
Re: Repricing Strong & Flexible Plastic and Steel [message #100026 is a reply to message #100022 ] Thu, 02 October 2014 07:05 UTC
avatar marchena35  is currently offline marchena35
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Hello, I've read through the posts on this subject with interest, the increase in price was quite startling, however I realize I can keep the cost down by looping parts, however I have a question as to whether wrapping or looping parts affect the effectiveness of polishing? If so, (newbie question), is there a way we can undertake the polishing at home?

Thank you

Kate
Re: Repricing Strong & Flexible Plastic and Steel [message #100027 is a reply to message #100023 ] Thu, 02 October 2014 07:09 UTC
avatar mkroeker is currently online mkroeker
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HOLDEN8702 wrote on Thu, 02 October 2014 07:01


Then really why the machine space price is different when I make the "tetris" with my model?


Probably because their newfangled wrapping calculation is adding an extra safety margin around each model, so the calculated "machine space" volume of the separate turret comes out bigger than its bounding box. Also given shapeways' track record it would not surprise me at all if the new code was still buggy and prices of some models would start jumping around in the near future.
Re: Repricing Strong & Flexible Plastic and Steel [message #100028 is a reply to message #99524 ] Thu, 02 October 2014 07:16 UTC
avatar leoparder is currently online leoparder
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We really need a precise explanation of the machine space calculation algorithm asap to be able to optimize the models.
I subscribed to the form.
Re: Repricing Strong & Flexible Plastic and Steel [message #100029 is a reply to message #99524 ] Thu, 02 October 2014 07:17 UTC
avatar HazelwoodModels  is currently offline HazelwoodModels
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Who is driving the Bus, because this is the wrong Route!

All my models cost much more in WSF, about 20%.

This is underhanded, touting price reductions, when we are stuck having
to explain price increases to customers.

This does not come out favorably for Shapeways.

Noel


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Re: Repricing Strong & Flexible Plastic and Steel [message #100030 is a reply to message #100025 ] Thu, 02 October 2014 07:18 UTC
avatar MitchellJetten is currently online MitchellJetten
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PenistoneRailwayWorks wrote on Thu, 02 October 2014 07:03



That makes a mockery of some of the other suggestions in this thread and the pricing model in general. Basically you are saying that if the model has multiple parts then it is better for you if you can move them around, but that also leads to a higher print cost for us as the shrink wrap wraps each part rather than the packed collection -- i.e. the nested cups model. Also if it is easier/cheeper for you to spread out multiple parts across the tray why are you charging us a per part cost? If we use the loop/cage idea we will reduce the cost but make your life harder and your costs will increase. Yet again this is what you are suggesting and what the pricing model will force many designed into.

Essentially this just shows that the pricing model has nothing to do with the actual process of printing many of the models. It's just a shame the PR spiel wasn't more honest about the reason behind the change from the start.



Well we always try to keep models together when planning, this is the easiest way as this makes unpacking of the tray a lot more convenient (the parts stay together).
Once the engineer has packed the models together in groups, the tray is being generated (so your model get a spot in the tray anywhere within the tray).
After it has been generated the engineer still might move some things around.

I'll see if I can get an engineer to provide a better explanation on how their process works as I only see this happening from a distance (I'm not doing those things).

So why are we charging you per part:
Labor, the planning and packing of a tray is just a small part.
I wrote a part about this earlier in the thread.

A quick example:
You have 10 parts in 1 file. The person unpacking the tray needs to take those pieces out of the tray part by part, clean them part by part.
And our sorting team needs to count all those parts to make sure your orderline is complete and nothing is missing.

When you use a loop around those 10 parts, we will only have to unpack 1 model from the tray (which contains all the 10 parts) and also clean just 1 part.
At sorting we only have to count to 1 to have the complete orderline.
This reduce the overall time for handling an orderline and thus it's cheaper for us.

Now with 10 parts this might not be a lot of time, but if you do this on daily basis it adds up.
Imagine a puzzle with 250 parts, if we have to handle all 250 parts (unpacking, cleaning and sorting/counting) this takes a lot of time.
Because what happens if you count to 249 and notice that 1 part is missing, it takes a hell lot of time to figure out which part we are actually missing.

If there is a loop or sprue, you remove all this labor intensive work.

Hope this explains it a bit better

[Updated on: Thu, 02 October 2014 07:19 UTC]


Kind regards,

Mitchell Jetten
Customer Service Coordinator
Shapeways
Re: Repricing Strong & Flexible Plastic and Steel [message #100031 is a reply to message #100001 ] Thu, 02 October 2014 07:21 UTC
avatar periocus  is currently offline periocus
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Bobbiethejean wrote on Wed, 01 October 2014 23:25

Quote:

I take it as it is. We are living in a free market society, so shapeways can charge what they think they need basically.


Yes but that does not exculpate SWs from the backlash of bad decisions and lack of communication that affect their base negatively. I support SWs and I think this decision is holistically good but we can't pretend this isn't a fustercluck and we can't pretend the people who are pissed don't have good cause to be pissed. I'd be breathing fire too if my models went up by 30, 40, 50, or 80 percent.




I know what you mean, but i can still throw myself on the floor screaming unfair or accept it as it is. Please don*t get me wrong. I am confused about the first Mail/ blog entry as most others here, too.
At the moment i have the impression that the algorithms behind it is either very complicated to understand or it is not working correct. For example i packed a 2 part model so tight, that the system says it is one.

I would love to keep the old volume based calculation, but i guess this will not happen.



Re: Repricing Strong & Flexible Plastic and Steel [message #100032 is a reply to message #100023 ] Thu, 02 October 2014 07:22 UTC
avatar MitchellJetten is currently online MitchellJetten
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HOLDEN8702 wrote on Thu, 02 October 2014 07:01



Then really why the machine space price is different when I make the "tetris" with my model?

index.php?t=getfile&id=73059&private=0

This confim that YOU ARE INCREASING THE PRICES WITHOUT A REAL REASON!




Because in your first model we calculated it as 1 single part, with the turret inside the tank (i see you sprued them, right?)
The second model is calculated as 2 individual parts and thus the underside of the tank is not considered as "free" space.


Kind regards,

Mitchell Jetten
Customer Service Coordinator
Shapeways
Re: Repricing Strong & Flexible Plastic and Steel [message #100033 is a reply to message #100010 ] Thu, 02 October 2014 07:23 UTC
avatar Mel_Miniatures is currently online Mel_Miniatures
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AlanHudson wrote on Thu, 02 October 2014 02:05

Thanks Draw, I appreciate you reporting this. We did find this bug today as well and have a fix almost ready.
There is a problem when certain models close completely where we undercalculate the volume. It looks to affect less then 1% of models.



Does this mean the pricing is going to change again for some models aroud the site?

Because im getting ready my new prices (because for some reason you people decided to only increase the prices instead of just rising the prices+markups automatically). And if in two days some of my models might get a new price I will have to check the entire CSV again...
Re: Repricing Strong & Flexible Plastic and Steel [message #100035 is a reply to message #100030 ] Thu, 02 October 2014 07:27 UTC
avatar PenistoneRailwayWorks  is currently offline PenistoneRailwayWorks
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MitchellJetten wrote on Thu, 02 October 2014 07:18

PenistoneRailwayWorks wrote on Thu, 02 October 2014 07:03



That makes a mockery of some of the other suggestions in this thread and the pricing model in general. Basically you are saying that if the model has multiple parts then it is better for you if you can move them around, but that also leads to a higher print cost for us as the shrink wrap wraps each part rather than the packed collection -- i.e. the nested cups model. Also if it is easier/cheeper for you to spread out multiple parts across the tray why are you charging us a per part cost? If we use the loop/cage idea we will reduce the cost but make your life harder and your costs will increase. Yet again this is what you are suggesting and what the pricing model will force many designed into.

Essentially this just shows that the pricing model has nothing to do with the actual process of printing many of the models. It's just a shame the PR spiel wasn't more honest about the reason behind the change from the start.



Well we always try to keep models together when planning, this is the easiest way as this makes unpacking of the tray a lot more convenient (the parts stay together).
Once the engineer has packed the models together in groups, the tray is being generated (so your model get a spot in the tray anywhere within the tray).
After it has been generated the engineer still might move some things around.

I'll see if I can get an engineer to provide a better explanation on how their process works as I only see this happening from a distance (I'm not doing those things).

So why are we charging you per part:
Labor, the planning and packing of a tray is just a small part.
I wrote a part about this earlier in the thread.

A quick example:
You have 10 parts in 1 file. The person unpacking the tray needs to take those pieces out of the tray part by part, clean them part by part.
And our sorting team needs to count all those parts to make sure your orderline is complete and nothing is missing.

When you use a loop around those 10 parts, we will only have to unpack 1 model from the tray (which contains all the 10 parts) and also clean just 1 part.
At sorting we only have to count to 1 to have the complete orderline.
This reduce the overall time for handling an orderline and thus it's cheaper for us.

Now with 10 parts this might not be a lot of time, but if you do this on daily basis it adds up.
Imagine a puzzle with 250 parts, if we have to handle all 250 parts (unpacking, cleaning and sorting/counting) this takes a lot of time.
Because what happens if you count to 249 and notice that 1 part is missing, it takes a hell lot of time to figure out which part we are actually missing.

If there is a loop or sprue, you remove all this labor intensive work.

Hope this explains it a bit better


Yeah I understand the labour cost (and personally I think the mistake was ever allowing unlimited parts within a model), but that doesn't explain the machine space issue. The nest cups example comes back here as the example is already well packed and shouldn't need spliting up. If it is stuck in a cage then it makes cleaning harder which takes longer which costs you more, but you will charge less as it will be considered a single object. I guess the point is that while we can understand that the existing pricing wasn't sustainable the new approach seems counterintuitive and seems to work against everything we as designers know about your process and you keep making this worse by giving examples where what you do to make your life easier or cheaper (in some sense) actually makes the model more expenseive.
Re: Repricing Strong & Flexible Plastic and Steel [message #100037 is a reply to message #100035 ] Thu, 02 October 2014 07:31 UTC
avatar MitchellJetten is currently online MitchellJetten
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PenistoneRailwayWorks, before replying your question.
Could you let me know to which model you are referring? Looks like I have been out of the loop a bit.

Don't want to tell you things that aren't true, so want to make sure I know what you are referring to.


Kind regards,

Mitchell Jetten
Customer Service Coordinator
Shapeways
Re: Repricing Strong & Flexible Plastic and Steel [message #100038 is a reply to message #100024 ] Thu, 02 October 2014 07:33 UTC
avatar MichaelAtOz  is currently offline MichaelAtOz
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MitchellJetten wrote on Thu, 02 October 2014 07:03


This is due to the price per cc for Metallic Plastic which is more than our WSF price per cc:
$1.50/part
$0.56/material cm3
$0.32/machine cm3

Best,
Mitchell


Why is the machine cost higher?

...and nobody answered by earlier question:

b. "We're only able to put parts inside openings of at least 40mm across."

Is that 40mm diameter (with < or > 40mm recess), 40mm x (<40mm) rectangle, 40mm square hole with <40mm recess, or 40mm cube?
Re: Repricing Strong & Flexible Plastic and Steel [message #100039 is a reply to message #100037 ] Thu, 02 October 2014 07:35 UTC
avatar PenistoneRailwayWorks  is currently offline PenistoneRailwayWorks
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MitchellJetten wrote on Thu, 02 October 2014 07:31

PenistoneRailwayWorks, before replying your question.
Could you let me know to which model you are referring? Looks like I have been out of the loop a bit.

Don't want to tell you things that aren't true, so want to make sure I know what you are referring to.


Ah, good question. It wasn't my model it was mentioned somewhere earlier in the thread but I can't remember who the deisgner was and I'm struggling to find the right post in this growing thread. From what I remember it was a set of different sized cups which were nested inside each other which reduced the bounding box but the machine space was calculated per part.
Re: Repricing Strong & Flexible Plastic and Steel [message #100040 is a reply to message #100038 ] Thu, 02 October 2014 07:36 UTC
avatar MitchellJetten is currently online MitchellJetten
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MichaelAtOz wrote on Thu, 02 October 2014 07:33


Is that 40mm diameter (with < or > 40mm recess), 40mm x (<40mm) rectangle, 40mm square hole with <40mm recess, or 40mm cube?



I'll ask Alan Hudson to get back to you on this.
I'm not 100% sure and don't want to tell you any lies :)


Kind regards,

Mitchell Jetten
Customer Service Coordinator
Shapeways
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