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Forum: Official Announcements
 Topic: Repricing Strong & Flexible Plastic and Steel
Re: Repricing Strong & Flexible Plastic and Steel [message #100039 is a reply to message #100037 ] Thu, 02 October 2014 07:35 UTC
avatar PenistoneRailwayWorks  is currently offline PenistoneRailwayWorks
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MitchellJetten wrote on Thu, 02 October 2014 07:31

PenistoneRailwayWorks, before replying your question.
Could you let me know to which model you are referring? Looks like I have been out of the loop a bit.

Don't want to tell you things that aren't true, so want to make sure I know what you are referring to.


Ah, good question. It wasn't my model it was mentioned somewhere earlier in the thread but I can't remember who the deisgner was and I'm struggling to find the right post in this growing thread. From what I remember it was a set of different sized cups which were nested inside each other which reduced the bounding box but the machine space was calculated per part.
Re: Repricing Strong & Flexible Plastic and Steel [message #100040 is a reply to message #100038 ] Thu, 02 October 2014 07:36 UTC
avatar MitchellJetten  is currently offline MitchellJetten
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MichaelAtOz wrote on Thu, 02 October 2014 07:33


Is that 40mm diameter (with < or > 40mm recess), 40mm x (<40mm) rectangle, 40mm square hole with <40mm recess, or 40mm cube?



I'll ask Alan Hudson to get back to you on this.
I'm not 100% sure and don't want to tell you any lies :)


Kind regards,

Mitchell Jetten
Customer Service Coordinator
Shapeways
Re: Repricing Strong & Flexible Plastic and Steel [message #100042 is a reply to message #100039 ] Thu, 02 October 2014 07:38 UTC
avatar MitchellJetten  is currently offline MitchellJetten
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PenistoneRailwayWorks wrote on Thu, 02 October 2014 07:35



Ah, good question. It wasn't my model it was mentioned somewhere earlier in the thread but I can't remember who the deisgner was and I'm struggling to find the right post in this growing thread. From what I remember it was a set of different sized cups which were nested inside each other which reduced the bounding box but the machine space was calculated per part.


Hmm not 100% sure which model, i think i've seen something.
The thing is that when we process your model during the upload, we first explode your model to calculate the price (hence the machine space per part).
When the parts are sprued it will be seen as 1 model.

I'll see if Raphael can provide some more insights on why we do it this way.


Kind regards,

Mitchell Jetten
Customer Service Coordinator
Shapeways
Re: Repricing Strong & Flexible Plastic and Steel [message #100043 is a reply to message #100030 ] Thu, 02 October 2014 07:40 UTC
avatar numarul7  is currently offline numarul7
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How are people doing mentally ? Developing Obsessive Compulsive Disorder ? At that rate of 300 pieces you can get mentally ill only sorting them out ... for lest say 10 products with 300 pieces lands 3000 pieces ... that clearly make a person insane even if it is not , in a daily basis in 1 year can develop OCD / ADHD / MANIA/ DEPRESSION.

Workers must be paid , must have a fair job and time to relax enough to work again .... We designers must think like we have a team of 10 persons after US and that they must eat too so in the end it is : Workers work - 3D Printer - Shapeways % -> Designer Markup

So works must be done by traditional model in a traditional factory like : puzzle -> every piece it is counted by lasers or digital camera in traditional factory , humans only double check and then packaging it is automated too.

If other competitors have low prices now , expect same price to go up there too. Human work in general goes UP not DOWN and people must have a good income or acceptable in order to : eat , drink , have fun ...err survive. Even if plastic it is 0.0001$ human work it will be up and running and you won`t see them drop in price.

When you have a new factory , you need to workers , then you need to reprice your stuff to take in account that. Then you can offer : better support , better shipment options and etc.

And that it is valid for any business.

When you have your own 3D Printer you are investing yourself your OWN time and OWN money , but take care at the end of the month , that you have lost 8 h of your life , that for 1$ you could save!


numarul7 jewelry and design
Re: Repricing Strong & Flexible Plastic and Steel [message #100044 is a reply to message #100026 ] Thu, 02 October 2014 07:42 UTC
avatar Wahtah  is currently offline Wahtah
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marchena35 wrote on Thu, 02 October 2014 07:05

... whether wrapping or looping parts affect the effectiveness of polishing? If so, (newbie question), is there a way we can undertake the polishing at home?

Polishing is done in a tumbler, just a rotating drum filled with soapy water and abrasive beads. So not too expensive to set up at home, depends on how much you use it. Might take a while to find the best combination of beads, soapy water and tumbling time. Hand polishing with sandpaper will hardly ever be worth it...
I think looping will not affect SW polishing too much, as long as you keep in mind that the parts have to be able to move about enough to allow the beads to reach everywhere. Wrapping your items in a cage: this will be a problem especially for smaller items, as the holes in the cage may hinder or prevent the beads from reaching the model.
Re: Repricing Strong & Flexible Plastic and Steel [message #100045 is a reply to message #100044 ] Thu, 02 October 2014 07:53 UTC
avatar MitchellJetten  is currently offline MitchellJetten
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Wahtah wrote on Thu, 02 October 2014 07:42

marchena35 wrote on Thu, 02 October 2014 07:05

... whether wrapping or looping parts affect the effectiveness of polishing? If so, (newbie question), is there a way we can undertake the polishing at home?

Polishing is done in a tumbler, just a rotating drum filled with soapy water and abrasive beads. So not too expensive to set up at home, depends on how much you use it. Might take a while to find the best combination of beads, soapy water and tumbling time. Hand polishing with sandpaper will hardly ever be worth it...
I think looping will not affect SW polishing too much, as long as you keep in mind that the parts have to be able to move about enough to allow the beads to reach everywhere. Wrapping your items in a cage: this will be a problem especially for smaller items, as the holes in the cage may hinder or prevent the beads from reaching the model.


Correct, just make sure your loop is like 1.2mm (my personal recommendation).
This way the loop won't break during the process of polishing the parts :)


Kind regards,

Mitchell Jetten
Customer Service Coordinator
Shapeways
Re: Repricing Strong & Flexible Plastic and Steel [message #100047 is a reply to message #100045 ] Thu, 02 October 2014 08:09 UTC
avatar MayCrown  is currently offline MayCrown
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MitchellJetten wrote on Thu, 02 October 2014 07:53

Wahtah wrote on Thu, 02 October 2014 07:42

marchena35 wrote on Thu, 02 October 2014 07:05

... whether wrapping or looping parts affect the effectiveness of polishing? If so, (newbie question), is there a way we can undertake the polishing at home?

Polishing is done in a tumbler, just a rotating drum filled with soapy water and abrasive beads. So not too expensive to set up at home, depends on how much you use it. Might take a while to find the best combination of beads, soapy water and tumbling time. Hand polishing with sandpaper will hardly ever be worth it...
I think looping will not affect SW polishing too much, as long as you keep in mind that the parts have to be able to move about enough to allow the beads to reach everywhere. Wrapping your items in a cage: this will be a problem especially for smaller items, as the holes in the cage may hinder or prevent the beads from reaching the model.


Correct, just make sure your loop is like 1.2mm (my personal recommendation).
This way the loop won't break during the process of polishing the parts :)

Wouldn't it be better if the loop actually breaks? ;)

[Updated on: Thu, 02 October 2014 08:10 UTC]


If chance will have me King, why, chance may crown me without my stir.
Re: Repricing Strong & Flexible Plastic and Steel [message #100048 is a reply to message #100047 ] Thu, 02 October 2014 08:24 UTC
avatar PenistoneRailwayWorks  is currently offline PenistoneRailwayWorks
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MayCrown wrote on Thu, 02 October 2014 08:09

MitchellJetten wrote on Thu, 02 October 2014 07:53

Wahtah wrote on Thu, 02 October 2014 07:42

marchena35 wrote on Thu, 02 October 2014 07:05

... whether wrapping or looping parts affect the effectiveness of polishing? If so, (newbie question), is there a way we can undertake the polishing at home?

Polishing is done in a tumbler, just a rotating drum filled with soapy water and abrasive beads. So not too expensive to set up at home, depends on how much you use it. Might take a while to find the best combination of beads, soapy water and tumbling time. Hand polishing with sandpaper will hardly ever be worth it...
I think looping will not affect SW polishing too much, as long as you keep in mind that the parts have to be able to move about enough to allow the beads to reach everywhere. Wrapping your items in a cage: this will be a problem especially for smaller items, as the holes in the cage may hinder or prevent the beads from reaching the model.


Correct, just make sure your loop is like 1.2mm (my personal recommendation).
This way the loop won't break during the process of polishing the parts :)

Wouldn't it be better if the loop actually breaks? ;)


Nope. If the ring breaks during polishing by SW then the model will I assume be considered a broken print and will end up in two parts from their point of view. If you are polishing yourslef maybe, but in that case I would cut the loop before polishing anyway.
Re: Repricing Strong & Flexible Plastic and Steel [message #100049 is a reply to message #100022 ] Thu, 02 October 2014 08:25 UTC
avatar AmLachDesigns  is currently offline AmLachDesigns
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MitchellJetten wrote on Thu, 02 October 2014 06:51




AmLachDesigns wrote on Thu, 02 October 2014 05:37


Off topic, I know, but I'm bored with SW's snafu.


I'm sorry to hear I make you feel that way :(

You're not boring me Mitchell, quite the reverse. You are always very helpful.

The changes are understandable, inevitable maybe, and do not affect me adversely. What bores me is all this discussion of ways to workaround the changes when it is clear they work against the whole idea of 3D printing (at least as I view it) and probably won't be effective anyway.

But this ****storm is caused by the way that SW have handled the change. To make such changes with 7 days notice, with the CSV Wizard not working properly (at least initially) and no proper explanation of the Machine Space aspect is poor judgement, imo. And then to announce the changes with 1984-style Newspeak adds to the adverse reaction. Perhaps that goes down well in some cultures, but in others not.

Why the rush? Why the lack of proper preparation? Why the poor communication?
Re: Repricing Strong & Flexible Plastic and Steel [message #100051 is a reply to message #100049 ] Thu, 02 October 2014 08:35 UTC
avatar tebee is currently online tebee
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AmLachDesigns wrote on Thu, 02 October 2014 08:25



.......

But this ****storm is caused by the way that SW have handled the change. To make such changes with 7 days notice, with the CSV Wizard not working properly (at least initially) and no proper explanation of the Machine Space aspect is poor judgement, imo. And then to announce the changes with 1984-style Newspeak adds to the adverse reaction. Perhaps that goes down well in some cultures, but in others not.

Why the rush? Why the lack of proper preparation? Why the poor communication?



I must say I wholeheartedly agree with these sentiments - it may be needed, but it seems rushed, not thought through and thoroughly unprofessional.
You are hurting most, those of us who are trying to build our own business around Shapeways, feeding orders into it - surely those are the people you should be helping most ?

Tom
Re: Repricing Strong & Flexible Plastic and Steel [message #100052 is a reply to message #100039 ] Thu, 02 October 2014 08:38 UTC
avatar AmLachDesigns  is currently offline AmLachDesigns
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PenistoneRailwayWorks wrote on Thu, 02 October 2014 07:35

MitchellJetten wrote on Thu, 02 October 2014 07:31

PenistoneRailwayWorks, before replying your question.
Could you let me know to which model you are referring? Looks like I have been out of the loop a bit.

Don't want to tell you things that aren't true, so want to make sure I know what you are referring to.


Ah, good question. It wasn't my model it was mentioned somewhere earlier in the thread but I can't remember who the deisgner was and I'm struggling to find the right post in this growing thread. From what I remember it was a set of different sized cups which were nested inside each other which reduced the bounding box but the machine space was calculated per part.


I think this is the one https://www.shapeways.com/forum/index.php?t=msg&&th= 21153&goto=99669#msg_99669

I believe the Machine Space calc uses an envelope of 1mm around each 'shrink-wrapped' part, so this would be less efficient/more expensive than where a designer nests themselves using 0,5mm clearance. There would still be the per shell handling fee, though.
Re: Repricing Strong & Flexible Plastic and Steel [message #100053 is a reply to message #100039 ] Thu, 02 October 2014 08:55 UTC
avatar mkroeker  is currently offline mkroeker
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PenistoneRailwayWorks wrote on Thu, 02 October 2014 07:35

MitchellJetten wrote on Thu, 02 October 2014 07:31

PenistoneRailwayWorks, before replying your question.
Could you let me know to which model you are referring? Looks like I have been out of the loop a bit.

Don't want to tell you things that aren't true, so want to make sure I know what you are referring to.


Ah, good question. It wasn't my model it was mentioned somewhere earlier in the thread but I can't remember who the deisgner was and I'm struggling to find the right post in this growing thread. From what I remember it was a set of different sized cups which were nested inside each other which reduced the bounding box but the machine space was calculated per part.

Page 3 in this thread, somewhere in the bottom half of the page is a post by nervoussystem.
Re: Repricing Strong & Flexible Plastic and Steel [message #100054 is a reply to message #99524 ] Thu, 02 October 2014 09:07 UTC
avatar fx  is currently offline fx
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All this sends out a very clear warning: Shapeways can, at any moment, without any other notice than the seven days window make a change that can make the most of your 3D designs become completely unprintable or outlandishly expensive.

Don't invest too much of your time in your Shapeways shop, maybe you will be only be able to sell two models before the next 75% price drop !

I too think Shapeways communication is really not up to the task.
Re: Repricing Strong & Flexible Plastic and Steel [message #100055 is a reply to message #100054 ] Thu, 02 October 2014 09:34 UTC
avatar MichaelAtOz  is currently offline MichaelAtOz
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fx wrote on Thu, 02 October 2014 09:07

All this sends out a very clear warning: Shapeways can, at any moment, without any other notice than the seven days window make a change that can make the most of your 3D designs become completely unprintable or outlandishly expensive.

Don't invest too much of your time in your Shapeways shop, maybe you will be only be able to sell two models before the next 75% price drop !

I too think Shapeways communication is really not up to the task.

+1, yep basic message...
Re: Repricing Strong & Flexible Plastic and Steel [message #100056 is a reply to message #99524 ] Thu, 02 October 2014 09:49 UTC
avatar bendlflo  is currently offline bendlflo
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Maybe I can sum things up a bit:

a) There seems to be a consensus that a 7 day notice period for such a substantial change is not received well. You should rethink about stepping back on this decision and extend it. The bugs which seem to be found confirm that the move would make sense for both sides to adapt.

b) Since Shapeways did not seem to have any problem to grow their business with the existing price structure, the price hike up for some model areas is creating big frustration. Every business has a fraction of customers who end up paying too little.

c) Models with multiple small parts can be a huge driver of production cost. The consensus seems to be that people understand why you are charging per part and are working on solutions like looping or stenting to combine them.
Two other possible ways out: (i) automate part picking from powder tray (with a robot?) (ii) do the part picking somewhere where labor is a lot cheaper

d) Low volume models potentially take up a large volume of your printer tray but deliver little revenue. People are upset since many seemed to have designed for low volume, not low printer tray space. Also airy, delicate & intricate designs get punished. Personally I hope that machine space cost should go down substantially in the future as the technology advances. And I hope for this to happen soon!

Regards,
Florian
Re: Repricing Strong & Flexible Plastic and Steel [message #100057 is a reply to message #100056 ] Thu, 02 October 2014 10:10 UTC
avatar HOLDEN8702 is currently online HOLDEN8702
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bendlflo wrote on Thu, 02 October 2014 09:49

....

d) Low volume models potentially take up a large volume of your printer tray but deliver little revenue. People are upset since many seemed to have designed for low volume, not low printer tray space. Also airy, delicate & intricate designs get punished. ...


Then models designed before this change of direction would must stay with the old volume rules.

A little of RESPECT to our work!

They are our small sh.t, but we had hard worked on them to lay aside under a huge unaffordable price.
Re: Repricing Strong & Flexible Plastic and Steel [message #100060 is a reply to message #99540 ] Thu, 02 October 2014 11:53 UTC
avatar Marta_Cherednik is currently online Marta_Cherednik
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Dear Shapeways,

You must be kidding!!!!! Everything went up in price by 50-70%!
I have a model containing 4 very thin rings in stainless steel. It used to cost $14 and now its $43.... Who in Shapeways have failed math at school? In what universe this is a reduction?! I see, you will now charge me as if I was ordering each ring separately...clever.

You have just 'helped' a whole bunch of young designers and starting businesses, because 90% of all Shapeways users are aged between 18 and 35! If you have increased prices at least be honest about it.

7th of October...the day when Shapeways became greedy...

Regards,
Marta Cherednik
Designer at MALINKO
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