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Re: Preventing Rejections [message #81208 is a reply to message #62565 ] Fri, 13 December 2013 07:05 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar Unistrut  is currently offline Unistrut
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Hello,

Just want to jump in with another retelling of the classic tale: Make model, print model, realize model is way too tiny, make model larger, print it again, paint it, open store, model gets rejected when someone finally orders it. Pointing out to CSR that model was successfully printed before (twice, once smaller!) has no effect. Closed store rather than face having to constantly reconfigure models to meet the guidelines of the week.

-U
Re: Preventing Rejections [message #81311 is a reply to message #81196 ] Sat, 14 December 2013 21:33 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar FabMeJewelry  is currently offline FabMeJewelry
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I must say that Shapeways has improved a lot !

Past few months we've received many orders from the FabMe Jewelry + Günter Art & Design shops without any rejection.
Designing products for sale is very different than designing products for personal use, you have to make sure the product arrives in perfect shape and will survive the terrible things us Humans will do to it. Think about building a bridge, it isn't designed with the minimum wall thickness of construction steel in mind but with strength and durability.

We can't wait what 2014 got in store for us, expecting nothing but magic :)

[Updated on: Sat, 14 December 2013 21:36 UTC]


Wesley Günter - FabMeJewelry.com - Set a course, for the future !
Re: Preventing Rejections [message #81679 is a reply to message #62565 ] Thu, 19 December 2013 14:57 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar natalia  is currently offline natalia
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Hey guys,

Exciting update on fixing rejections... WALL THICKNESS VISUALIZATION on upload!! Yep, that "first of many" we've been talking about is HERE!

That's right, we help you see problem areas BEFORE you order!

Read all about it, and tell us what you think... right here!

I've been dying to share this with you guys!! YAY!

Natalia


Shapeways Community Manager
Re: Preventing Rejections [message #82257 is a reply to message #81679 ] Mon, 30 December 2013 16:38 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar stonysmith  is currently offline stonysmith
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lensman wrote on Mon, 30 December 2013 14:34


I was reading another post here where someone printed an object that failed three or four attempts before the final one went through; that's absolutely great that Shapeways went to that effort to get it to work and please the maker but what happens when a customer orders it and now it fails again? Good chance it will be rejected as unprintable.
Inconsistency is something that really needs to be addressed by Shapeways.

How would you suggest that Shapeways handle the issue? Reject it on first breakage, without even attempting a second print? Reject it before printing because it MIGHT break? I've seen both points argued at length. WE need to send Shapeways a consistent message as to how we'd like it handled.


Patience, Persistance, Politeness - the 3Ps will help us get us to Perfect Printed Products
Re: Preventing Rejections [message #82259 is a reply to message #82257 ] Mon, 30 December 2013 16:43 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar dcyale  is currently offline dcyale
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This thread has gotten so old, I may have mentioned this.

Perhaps if a designer could indicate at upload time if it was a one off model, or it was intended for public sale. A model intended for public sale would needs to be a bit more robust so it will reprint reliably- and Shapways would know that if the model fails during printing it could be a problem later. A one off model is not intended (and perhaps can be locked out from) sale to the public, and more chances can be taken.

Dave Yale

Re: Preventing Rejections [message #82267 is a reply to message #62565 ] Mon, 30 December 2013 18:12 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar MrNib  is currently offline MrNib
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If models are not printing or breaking under existing guidelines the guidelines are insufficient to reflect the process capabilities. While it is preferable to have one set of guidelines perhaps one set is required for designer only efforts and a more stringent set for items which are available for purchase. These problems will never go away if you try to occupy that middle mushy ground.

Many commercial manufacturers can supply higher precision or better quality product but that is generally reflected by special order and additional cost. If a designer must push the envelope, which increases the cost for everyone, why shouldn't they pay more for service to cover their additional costs of multiple failed prints and human touch time?
Re: Preventing Rejections [message #82270 is a reply to message #82259 ] Mon, 30 December 2013 18:49 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar lensman  is currently offline lensman
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dcyale wrote on Mon, 30 December 2013 16:43


Perhaps if a designer could indicate at upload time if it was a one off model, or it was intended for public sale. A model intended for public sale would needs to be a bit more robust so it will reprint reliably- and Shapways would know that if the model fails during printing it could be a problem later. A one off model is not intended (and perhaps can be locked out from) sale to the public, and more chances can be taken.



I definitely agree with this. If a maker wants to sell the model then it should print first time out - no issues - period! That could be the "default" upload option.

Then if a maker is experimenting with pushing printing boundries, or is going to sell the item privately, he/she can check off a box that states: "This model will not be offered for sale on Shapeways. Please attempt to print."

Perhaps if the second option is chosen then Shapeways can inform the maker if indeed there were some printing issues or if the model can be "unlocked" for sale to the public?

I know for a fact that Shapeways has gone to some extraordinary efforts to print some of my models and I wouldn't be stupid enough to offer them to the public. On the other hand I'm not the only one that has had Shapeways print something, had a customer buy it, and then got the "Sorry, this can't be printed" email !! Very, very frustrating.


Glenn ------ My Website Third Dimension Jewellery
Re: Preventing Rejections [message #82273 is a reply to message #82270 ] Mon, 30 December 2013 19:50 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar Roy_Stevens  is currently offline Roy_Stevens
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lensman wrote on Mon, 30 December 2013 18:49



Perhaps if the second option is chosen then Shapeways can inform the maker if indeed there were some printing issues or if the model can be "unlocked" for sale to the public?

I know for a fact that Shapeways has gone to some extraordinary efforts to print some of my models and I wouldn't be stupid enough to offer them to the public. On the other hand I'm not the only one that has had Shapeways print something, had a customer buy it, and then got the "Sorry, this can't be printed" email !! Very, very frustrating.




I have proposed that the print/fail ratio be visible to the designer. I want my customers to have the best experience possible, but that includes buying a model that matches the prototype as closely as possible within the constraints of the material. Which means often times pushing the limit. I don't always know if that limit was pushed too far until I get burnt. It would also be great ammo for those rejection messages if the P/F ratio was 95% and then someone decides that a little detail was actually a wire.


Earl Grey, hot.
Re: Preventing Rejections [message #82310 is a reply to message #82273 ] Tue, 31 December 2013 12:04 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar dcyale  is currently offline dcyale
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Had a rejection in my mail box this AM when I woke up. My understanding is that when you sprue a bunch of pieces together, with several connections the sprues are considered supported wires. This model is in WSF and it was rejected:

index.php?t=getfile&id=48373&private=0

I asked CS for clarification as I have had older models print OK with sprues of this size, and if Shapeways start rejecting them it will start a new round of having to review many old models and trying to identify and update this issue. If a piece was only attached with one sprue I have (hopefully) tried to make it larger than the minimum for a free wire.

What experience have other people had on this issue?

Dave

Re: Preventing Rejections [message #82311 is a reply to message #62565 ] Tue, 31 December 2013 12:27 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar lensman  is currently offline lensman
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Great, I just went to the Design Guidelines page for WSF and all it loads is a white page.... Anyway, my feeling is that I think for a "wire" they require 1mm minimum? I could be wrong and cannot check that right now.


Glenn ------ My Website Third Dimension Jewellery
Re: Preventing Rejections [message #82312 is a reply to message #82311 ] Tue, 31 December 2013 12:53 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar dcyale  is currently offline dcyale
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It just came up for me and it specifies a free wire as 1mm and a supported wire as .8mm.

Dave Yale
Re: Preventing Rejections [message #82315 is a reply to message #62565 ] Tue, 31 December 2013 15:04 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar tebee  is currently offline tebee
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I've had so many rejections over sprues that I've stopped using them on all but the smallest things.

In my recent experience they are now always considered as supporting wires and so need to be 1mm. I've had rejections too at 0.8mm.

Tom
Re: Preventing Rejections [message #82319 is a reply to message #82315 ] Tue, 31 December 2013 16:03 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar dcyale  is currently offline dcyale
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Hmmm. anyone from shapeways monitoring so they can chime in with an "official" version. Of course in the model in question I could simply eliminate the sprue entirely.

I like them because when I resell models on Ebay it helps ensure that the customer is getting a full model.

Dave Yale
Re: Preventing Rejections [message #82333 is a reply to message #82319 ] Tue, 31 December 2013 19:48 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar Roy_Stevens  is currently offline Roy_Stevens
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So I got the shop owner survey. I really couldn't believe the options given for the question "What are your greatest barriers for growth on Shapeways?" Not a single option for rejections, random design rule changes, overall lack of transparency in the approval process, rough handling in cleaning and shipping. Not a single mention.


Earl Grey, hot.
Re: Preventing Rejections [message #82336 is a reply to message #82333 ] Tue, 31 December 2013 20:10 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar stannum  is currently offline stannum
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Is there any "[] Other, fill _____" or any comment field? Like in the previous.
Re: Preventing Rejections [message #82339 is a reply to message #82336 ] Tue, 31 December 2013 21:22 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar dcyale  is currently offline dcyale
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On a variety of subjects:

The survey allows to check rejections as an area that needs improvement- there is not a real comments section.

WSF sprues need to be 1mm according to CS.

I was reviewing my year end sales *from March when I started) and saw something interesting concerning rejections. Of 22 customer order rejections, it looks like 12 of them were from non-US orders. I had 144 total model orders, and 58 were non-US. So on raw statistics, non US orders were more likely to be rejected. I do not know what production facilities print for different countries so don't know how valid conclusions on this basis are,

Of the rejections, virtually all had test printed successfully prior to being offered for sale, but because I ordered them they don't show up in my sales analysis and I'm too lazy to go through my orders and add them manually.

HEY SHAPEWAYS: How hard would it be to offer an excel sheet of my orders that looks like the sales summary so we could merge the two?

There seems to be a higher incidence of rejections of previously successful customer ordered items rejected when it was successfully ordered in either the US or non-US, and the rejection was a later order was from the opposite, but to be honest that is beyond my hazy recollection of statistics, and analysis of my sales is way too small a sample to draw any conclusions. But I wonder if Shapeways has looked at the issue of a model being successfully printed at one facility, and then rejected at another, or if it is an issue at all.
Re: Preventing Rejections [message #82343 is a reply to message #82339 ] Wed, 01 January 2014 00:15 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar stonysmith  is currently offline stonysmith
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dcyale wrote on Tue, 31 December 2013 21:22

How hard would it be to offer an excel sheet of my orders that looks like the sales summary so we could merge the two?


I still suggest that the personal orders simply be included IN the Sales Overview Spreadsheet. That is a trivial code change and I don't see any negative result from including them. I'd be happy to withdraw my suggestion if anyone could point out why NOT to have it.

Actually.. there was a week or so there back many months ago when personal orders WERE in the SOS (it was a bug). I'd like to see them come back.


Patience, Persistance, Politeness - the 3Ps will help us get us to Perfect Printed Products
Re: Preventing Rejections [message #82656 is a reply to message #82343 ] Mon, 06 January 2014 22:25 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar dcyale  is currently offline dcyale
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It seems that I go two steps forward and three back. (Actually the wall thickness tool has identified 2 different problems that would have resulted in cancelled models- a real step forward).

Today I got a rejection for a thin wire. The model was in FD. Wire design specs are .6mm supported, .8mm free, and 1mm weight bearing.

Here's the picture:

index.php?t=getfile&id=48823&private=0

The wires are over .6mm and supported at both ends. The rejection notice was the canned one that gives the dimensions required for different wire sizes with no application to my model or the specifics. I followed up with CS, asked when a wire is supported vs. free and why my wire wasn't a supported wire, and got a polite answer differentiating between different wire types, but with nothing explaining the concept to the model in question.

When I look at this wire I see it supported on all ends and carrying no loads- it's decorative, not structural. Each wire mutually supports the others. Maybe I'm crazy because I just don't get it.

Re: Preventing Rejections [message #82660 is a reply to message #82656 ] Mon, 06 January 2014 22:49 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar mkroeker  is currently offline mkroeker
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Did they specify what diameter they want them to be ? Maybe the whole railing is too fragile to withstand cleaning (lever action breaking some of the posts, or something like that). Would it be practical to build a protective cage around the trailers ?
Re: Preventing Rejections [message #82661 is a reply to message #82660 ] Mon, 06 January 2014 22:57 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar dcyale  is currently offline dcyale
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mkroeker wrote on Mon, 06 January 2014 22:49

Did they specify what diameter they want them to be ? Maybe the whole railing is too fragile to withstand cleaning (lever action breaking some of the posts, or something like that). Would it be practical to build a protective cage around the trailers ?



Nothing more than the boiler plate. Which I quote below.

I have had other models that are much more intricate that printed and cleaned OK. Here are some pictures a customer recently sent me-

index.php?t=getfile&id=48825&private=0

index.php?t=getfile&id=48826&private=0

There are some wires the same diameter on this model.

Here is the rejection:

Hello dcyale,
After taking a closer look, we cannot print a model that you have available for sale.
You may be able to update and continue to sell your model based on the information below.
--------------------------------------
Model: Trailer Assortment x4 HO 1/87 Rentals
Version: 1
Materials Affected:
- Frosted Detail (Guidelines)

Here is why we cannot print your model:
The minimum wire thickness for this material is 0.6mm. Wires that are supporting a structure should be 0.8mm, and ones bearing more weight should be 1mm.
To print (and continue to sell) your model modify your file and update it here: http://www.shapeways.com/model/edit/------------------- .
We know you've already put a lot of time and effort in creating your model. If we can help in any way email us at: service@shapeways.com.
Kind regards,

  • Attachment: painted01.jpg
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Re: Preventing Rejections [message #82664 is a reply to message #82661 ] Mon, 06 January 2014 23:57 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar Mechanoid  is currently offline Mechanoid
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As one of those who was involved with the testing of the Wall Thickness Visualization Tool, WTVT as I call it. I found the tool if used correctly can catch many errors that get over looked in a model during design. By using the WTVT I am learning what it is that the Service Team is looking at, and ignoring. Some things require contacting Mr. Jetten over. Some it's best to just make minor changes and move on. I have several models that I have uploaded during the testing of the WTVT and found that by using the WTVT to identify areas of concern, then going back to the actual model and checking the results, I have been able to find areas of concern before the Service Team has. Been able to correct those areas and get a model uploaded with less than 2 WTVT high lighted areas of concern, which were so minor that only one rejection has happened while using the WTVT. Of more than 17 new models, only one model rejection that clearly was my fault.

Some of what I found with concern to wires, unsupported wires and those things, is that the space between supports can determine if the Service Team see's a rejection, or a print. A model I have has wing guns on it. The guns are down in a channel of 3 walls. But because of the shape of the gun, the Service Team didn't notice the 3 walls and rejected it. After several disputes and more rejections, the model was finally put to the test and it never failed. Since then Mr. Jetten has limited this model to selected materials and suggested that I not change those settings. Sometimes it's not the details, walls or wires that are at issue, it's the geometry of them in relation to other seen or ignored areas surrounding the part in question.

I can tell you that that sometimes even I don't get what it is the Service Team is looking at. But by using the WTVT I am able to head them off at the pass, fix a model and get it uploaded and working without having to deal with rejections. The WTVT has reduced my stress, allowed me to better handle and manage my models in my shop. And it has seriously reduced my rejection rate. I have also found that by designing a model slightly smaller than wanted, then changing the scale by as little as 2% (and for super tiny models that ain't much change), it brings everything into requirements and has also reduced my rejections. And I have some rather tiny models in my shop. Go look at the Space: Above and Beyond models, or the Construction Fury set in the Space Station section. Believe me when I say, the construction furies are tiny. the entire structure bar over the top is 1.25mm wide, and all the support bars in it, both on top, sides and bottom all printed in FUD. Even the claws on the arms print clearly.

Sometimes I think we designers, shop owners, sellers and such, push the limits just too close. I still have some models that I think the Service Team is insane over. But using this new WTVT, I have managed to limit their involvement and triggering rejections. Not to mention it's allowing me to really understand 3D modeling and design so much more. And as a result I have some fantastic new and much smaller and thinner models working.

Yes, sometimes I still want to take the Service Team out too the woodshed, but sometimes it truly is my own fault. The WTVT has limited those faults and improved my calm. We all cried for ShapeWays to offer a way to check a model before ordering it. Well the WTVT is that tool for that request. And it's open too all who upload models. We have to learn to use it, to check our models ourselves. The thinner the red area, the more likely it won't get rejected, Unless it's an entire part, then you have to make changes. Believe me, the WTVT is a really nice tool to have.


I.D.I.C. = Infinite Diversity in Infinite Combinations
Re: Preventing Rejections [message #82678 is a reply to message #62565 ] Tue, 07 January 2014 06:52 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar MrNib  is currently offline MrNib
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Maybe someone thinks that trailers are meant to be used wheels up!

Re: Preventing Rejections [message #82681 is a reply to message #82678 ] Tue, 07 January 2014 07:57 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar MitchellJetten  is currently offline MitchellJetten
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Dcyale, I emailed our production team to check why they state 0.8mm while the design rules page 0.6mm.

Personally I think the 0.6mm is for FUD and 0.8mm for FD (not showing up?)
Reason for thinking so is cause we do state the wall thickness in FD and FUD:

Min Wall Supported: 0.5mm (Frosted Detail) · 0.3mm (Frosted Ultra Detail)

I'll get back to you once I have more information :)


@ Everyone else

Some addition information from Alan Hudson regarding the wallthickness check:
Quote:

Currently the visualization is for informational purposes only. It can
help you see possible problem areas related to wallthickness problems. It
only calculates thin areas. It doesn't currently calculate structural
strength. So yes its possible for this tool to not show you something that
the human checkers will catch. A simple example is a meter long 1mm T
character., White Strong and Flexible needs to be at least 1mm for free
wires. But at the extremes of models these rules break down due to large
physical forces. This tool is not trying to model that type of thing but
just help you stay within the design guidelines as published.

The other problem could happen as well(and does with details right now).
This tool might show you some areas below wallthickness that the human
checkers will recognize as ok(something like lettering). We are working to
reduce this case but right now its possible.

Hopefully the tool helps people understand some of the potential problems
with a model. We realize its not perfect but I've found it really useful
in my own 3d modeling.

[Updated on: Tue, 07 January 2014 08:00 UTC]


Kind regards,

Mitchell Jetten
Customer Service Coordinator
Shapeways
Re: Preventing Rejections [message #82682 is a reply to message #82661 ] Tue, 07 January 2014 08:08 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar mkroeker  is currently offline mkroeker
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I guess the pipes on that (t)rusty steam engine are shorter and less exposed ? I'd try with .8 mm rails if possible - on the assumption that each segment of the top rail supports its neighbors and the posts it sits on. (But what do I know...)
Re: Preventing Rejections [message #83506 is a reply to message #82682 ] Mon, 20 January 2014 18:19 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar Strangefate  is currently offline Strangefate
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Just wanted to join in and add myself to the list of people having issues with rejections of items printed before several times successfully... of course, it wasn't rejected when I ordered, but when a customer did.

The excuse I got too was that if it had been caught before, it wouldn't have been printed... so I imagine that the dozen or so previous times it did print before, shapeways did a sloppy job at model checking ?

Ironically, 20 minutes after the email with the issues arrived, I got another one for my own order saying my order was sent to the printer (and was approved)... that order of mine contains a variation of the same item, the 'problem' areas are exactly the same...


One thing I'll learn from this, is to not bother ordering test prints anymore. I've spend over $2000 on shapeways test prints, and they clearly don't seem to mean much, better to save the money and invest it into a new 3d printer. Live and learn.
Re: Preventing Rejections [message #83657 is a reply to message #83506 ] Wed, 22 January 2014 22:57 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar dcyale  is currently offline dcyale
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Well, I haven't ranted in a week or two in this thread. I did a new model of large machine tools in 1/87 scale- http://shpws.me/qlwi. Did a test print- you can see the pictures of the models I received in the mail.

Made them available for sale and the first customer order was rejected- loose shells. OK, there were loose shells. I now know better how to check them in netfab and learned something new. Kind of defeats the purpose of a test print, though. Just a waste of my money- (WHEN is shapeways going to offer a really intense screening of a model upon first order- even at an upcharge- to catch this type of thing as much as possible? Is this in the pipeline Shapeways?) As a designer it would be cheaper to pay someone at Shapeways who does this all day to really go over the model, rather than have to purchase multiple test prints.

I fixed the shells and re-uploaded the model on Jan 17th. The new price was pennies different in price.

Today (Jan 22) I get a message that I sold a model that couldn't be printed. It sends a screen shot of the old model with the loose shells. I am assuming the order was put in before I updated the file- there's no way for me to tell. And the model is now locked out in the only material enabled- FUD.

So here are my two gripes- I can understand an order of a model goes with the version of the file that was in place when the order was placed. However, maybe before rejecting a customer sale Shapeways could see if the model has been updated. If there is only a couple pennies difference couldn't we substitute the corrected version? Good for the designer, good for Shapeways and good for the CUSTOMER!

The second gripe- this old rejection locked out a new version of the model. I suspect that's not supposed to happen. So what happens to the orders in the pipeline when the material gets locked out due to a rejection of an old model, but the order is of an updated model? I have a new test print of the model pending- in processing, so it will be interesting to see what happens.

I have emailed CS about the locked material. We'll see what they say.

Dave Yale
Re: Preventing Rejections [message #83665 is a reply to message #83657 ] Thu, 23 January 2014 00:07 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar lensman  is currently offline lensman
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Very well put, Dave. I've said before somewhere in these forums that it's great how Shapeways bends over backwards to get some of these difficult prints out, but in reality they are shooting themselves and the designers in the foot - When the next time it is printed and a new operator says "Nope, that ain't going to work" it gets extremely frustrating; especially when that order has been placed by a customer! I don't believe that even the new model checking tools that have been implemented are going to quite get rid of this problem.




Glenn ------ My Website Third Dimension Jewellery
Re: Preventing Rejections [message #83666 is a reply to message #83657 ] Thu, 23 January 2014 00:11 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar stonysmith  is currently offline stonysmith
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dcyale wrote on Wed, 22 January 2014 22:57

If there is only a couple pennies difference couldn't we substitute the corrected version? Good for the designer, good for Shapeways and good for the CUSTOMER!


I fully agree. The difficulty will be when that turns into a couple of dollars.

dcyale wrote on Wed, 22 January 2014 22:57

I am assuming the order was put in before I updated the file- there's no way for me to tell.


The Sales Order Spreadsheet can pinpoint when the order was placed, and all you have to do is compare that to the upload date on your model.


Patience, Persistance, Politeness - the 3Ps will help us get us to Perfect Printed Products
Re: Preventing Rejections [message #83667 is a reply to message #83666 ] Thu, 23 January 2014 00:18 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar dcyale  is currently offline dcyale
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I didn't think of the spreadsheet. When I get home I'll take a look.

I agree that a couple bucks is an issue. But thickening a thin wire, or reattaching a shell makes minimal difference on my models as far as price. In this case I think the price went down a couple cents.

I also recognize the potential problem if the change makes a difference in appearance. The customer ordered one thing and gets another. It just seems that the potential pluses makes it a scheme that's worth looking at and seeing if the problems can be managed.
Re: Preventing Rejections [message #83668 is a reply to message #83657 ] Thu, 23 January 2014 00:20 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar Roy_Stevens  is currently offline Roy_Stevens
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dcyale wrote on Wed, 22 January 2014 22:57

Well, I haven't ranted in a week or two in this thread. I did a new model of large machine tools in 1/87 scale- http://shpws.me/qlwi. Did a test print- you can see the pictures of the models I received in the mail.
Made them available for sale and the first customer order was rejected-
Dave Yale


This tells me that the promises made about pushing through designs with >50% print success was complete BS and smoke up my - you know. When are we going to get straight answers and consistent service from Shapeways??


Earl Grey, hot.
Re: Preventing Rejections [message #83669 is a reply to message #83668 ] Thu, 23 January 2014 00:32 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar Strangefate  is currently offline Strangefate
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I think it would help if customers could just combine shipping for separate orders. That way a failed print would just delay their goods, not cost additionally.

I've ordered myself 2-3 items at times and if one isnt printable, it's somewhat annoying to have to order it again paying the full shipping price, which is often higher thsn the item, and almost too high to bother with the other item remaining in the first order.

I think customers could live with this too more or less and encourages coming back more... personally as a customer I'd feel somewhat cheated if I order a few things and not all ship but the shipping price stays the same.

Right now if im lucky I'll manage to cancel the whole order until I can fix the offending model, but more often than not it's too late and I have to make an extra order for 1 item thats almost not worth to pay shipping for again.

[Updated on: Thu, 23 January 2014 00:33 UTC]

Re: Preventing Rejections [message #83670 is a reply to message #83668 ] Thu, 23 January 2014 00:35 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar dcyale  is currently offline dcyale
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I have to take the fault for the defect in the model, that's not my complaint. I screwed it up. My problem is that the test print went through without a problem and then it gets rejected on a customer order, I think three separate orders actually. I wish they had rejected the test print, that way I would've fixed it and put out a model that was printable for my customers.

I review my models, but let's face it, I am an amateur. I will never catch some of the things that the people at Shapeways, who do this all day long, can catch. I am getting better, but I have a long way to go.
Re: Preventing Rejections [message #83672 is a reply to message #83670 ] Thu, 23 January 2014 01:00 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar Roy_Stevens  is currently offline Roy_Stevens
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dcyale wrote on Thu, 23 January 2014 00:35

I have to take the fault for the defect in the model, that's not my complaint. I screwed it up.


I understand that you had a loose shell, but obviously that wasn't as issue as your test print was successful. I've had 'loose shells' on models before, usually where a cylinder is mated tangent to a surface and lesser CAD programs see that as a separate item. But they always print fine until someone checking models didn't have their coffee and bam - rejected. Print success should always trump an ornery employee.


Earl Grey, hot.
Re: Preventing Rejections [message #83680 is a reply to message #83672 ] Thu, 23 January 2014 08:53 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar MitchellJetten  is currently offline MitchellJetten
Messages: 640
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I'll look into this dcyale ;)

Have to talk to the one that printed it, the one that rejected it and the one that approved the rejection.
As for the second rejection, this was probably caused by overlapping faces which caused parts of your geometry to be removed, resulting in a rejection.

Note that printed before models always go straight to the planning team (they aren't been checked again).
However as we manually plan trays, during this stage it sometimes happens that parts are dragged individually (instead of groups) to make the tray as tight as possible.
So when we drag the model individually, we notice the small part that wasn't attached.
While, most likely, the successful print was dragged to the tray as group.

For Printed before models with thickness rejections, these also go to the planning team right away without being checked again.
These are actually printed but it happens that after printing it breaks -> resulting in a rejection.

Of course there are exceptions, and we are working hard to align this better.

@dcyale, i really do understand your frustration and it always makes me sad to see we did reject something that has been printed before :(
Sadly this is the case and it still happens from time to time :(


Kind regards,

Mitchell Jetten
Customer Service Coordinator
Shapeways
Re: Preventing Rejections [message #83689 is a reply to message #62565 ] Thu, 23 January 2014 14:26 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar Youknowwho4eva  is currently offline Youknowwho4eva
Messages: 5399
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Maybe there is a way we can make this more prominent?

If you go to the Edit Model section of the Edit page, there is a Details tab. At the bottom of that, it lists the Number of Separate Parts. The model in the image, has 4 separate parts.
index.php?t=getfile&id=50245&private=0


I learned a long time ago the wisest thing I can do is be on my own side, be an advocate for myself and others like me. -Maya Angelou
michael@shapeways.com
Re: Preventing Rejections [message #83697 is a reply to message #83680 ] Thu, 23 January 2014 15:51 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar Mechanoid  is currently offline Mechanoid
Messages: 96
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Mr. Jetten,

ShapeWays has a thing about parts in a models file have to be so far apart. Maybe what is needed is something that tells designers and shop owners when a part is not attached, but is also too close and could (if printed), get attached to the other shell during printing. I think a tool feature like that could be as useful as the WTVT.

And instead of just doing a flat-out rejection, maybe change it so the designer/ shop owner is contacted about the issue, requesting a "GO AHEAD AND PRINT IT" option. So that not everything is put on the heads of the Service Team, and it also allows for the "Printed Before Flag" to actually be considered before just shutting a model off.

Which as you know, just causes tempers to flare and peoples feelings get hurt and things don't go smoothly afterwards.


I.D.I.C. = Infinite Diversity in Infinite Combinations
Re: Preventing Rejections [message #83700 is a reply to message #83689 ] Thu, 23 January 2014 16:03 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar stonysmith  is currently offline stonysmith
Messages: 1921
Registered: August 2008
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Just to be repetitive... even though this is two shells, this would be considered to be one PART, because the pieces won't separate.
index.php?t=getfile&id=50252&private=0

Likewise the item on the left below would be counted as two PARTs, but the item on the right would be considered to be only one PART.
On the left, the ball can come free - on the right, it's trapped and can't fall out during cleaning/packing.
index.php?t=getfile&id=50256&private=0

  • Attachment: OnePart.jpg
    (Size: 8.28KB, Downloaded 112 time(s))

  • Attachment: OnePart1.jpg
    (Size: 36.04KB, Downloaded 107 time(s))

[Updated on: Thu, 23 January 2014 16:04 UTC]


Patience, Persistance, Politeness - the 3Ps will help us get us to Perfect Printed Products
Re: Preventing Rejections [message #83703 is a reply to message #83700 ] Thu, 23 January 2014 16:14 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar AmLachDesigns  is currently offline AmLachDesigns
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Out of curiosity, Stony, is the number of parts determination performed by software or humans?

If by software, is it a difficult determination?
Re: Preventing Rejections [message #83706 is a reply to message #83689 ] Thu, 23 January 2014 16:31 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar dcyale  is currently offline dcyale
Messages: 106
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@ Youknowwho4eva:

I never paid attention to this screen before- thanks for the info. A new QC check I can make. Thanks.

Dave

Re: Preventing Rejections [message #83707 is a reply to message #62565 ] Thu, 23 January 2014 16:34 UTC Go to previous messageGo to previous message
avatar Youknowwho4eva  is currently offline Youknowwho4eva
Messages: 5399
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@Dave discussing with the team, this may miss items closer that .1mm. We're discussing how to improve this, and also make it easier to find.


I learned a long time ago the wisest thing I can do is be on my own side, be an advocate for myself and others like me. -Maya Angelou
michael@shapeways.com

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