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I'm quickly loosing my faith in Shapeways [message #76059] Fri, 04 October 2013 00:32 UTC Go to next message
avatar PopeDesign  is currently offline PopeDesign
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index.php?t=getfile&id=42184&private=0

I'm pretty much at my wits end right now.... D-8-rops-winch-kit-04-20-13 has been successfully ordered and printed 5 times and D-8-with-blade-kit-04-20-13 has been successfully ordered and printed 3 times (both models shown above). Since then I have announced these projects for sale on 2 websites and on a local TV interview that Shapeways contacted me and asked me to do which I gladly did. I just got 2 new orders for each model and they were both rejected at final review....

This not only makes me publicly look like a fool but also puts into question the rest of my models for sale in my store. I take great pride on actually spending the time and money to make sure every model I sell has printed out and can be painted and finished not just once but a minimum of at least 2 times before its offered to the public in my store ( http://www.shapeways.com/shops/Micro%20American%20Rail%20Pro totypes). I have never posted a model for sale that has not gone though this process first.

If there have been no customer complaints how can Shapeways just start rejecting my models that have a track record of no problems and obviously can be printed out? So they want me to redo my CAD geometry that is proven to work and then spend the money and time to print out and finish a whole new set of models? I can say after 20 years of experience in the manufacturing world, a vender for tooling or rapid prototyping of any kind could never get away with this and expect to stay in business for very long.... I'm not saying Shapeways is going down because of the problems I'm having but come on, this is unacceptable from a professional level down to the customer that's printing out projects just for the fun of it.

What do I tell my future customers now? Buy at your own risk, I can't guarantee my models will print even though I'm showing nothing but actual models that have printed out in my store? I've already shifted my personal projects to another vender that does Multijet Modeling with FUD. But the purpose of my store is not to make money, its to share my models with other Z scale modelers that have limited Z scale products to choose from in the retail world. But I'm starting to think its just not worth it if I potentially have to redo my entire product line for Z scale...

[Updated on: Fri, 04 October 2013 00:43 UTC]


-Jon Pope

Re: I'm quickly loosing my faith in Shapeways [message #76069 is a reply to message #76059 ] Fri, 04 October 2013 05:33 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar coaster  is currently offline coaster
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You have some great models there Jon.Incrediable stuff.
Have been in your situation aswell............Damn annoying sitting in front of computer holding a model in your hand reading an email saying that model cannot be printed..........Duh!!
I have wondered at times if its all worth the trouble.
Some body should be made to explain very clearly how these things actually come about.
It seems to be happening far too often now.

Cheers
Stu
Re: I'm quickly loosing my faith in Shapeways [message #76078 is a reply to message #76059 ] Fri, 04 October 2013 08:26 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar mkroeker  is currently offline mkroeker
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Have you complained directly to service ? This might be a quicker route than through the forum and "community managers". From what little
I know, FUD may be handled by a production partner, so possibly something changed outside of shapeways' immediate control. (I do note that
there have been some complaints about tightening design rules for FUD lately, and there is a rather long and sadly inconclusive thread about
"Preventing Rejections" in the suggestions forum (where your message will probably be moved to).
Re: I'm quickly loosing my faith in Shapeways [message #76085 is a reply to message #76059 ] Fri, 04 October 2013 12:55 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar Youknowwho4eva  is currently offline Youknowwho4eva
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Jon,

Sorry to hear about your issue, looking into what happened here to see how we can resolve this. I've contacted service, I'm sure they'll ask me for your order number, if you could share that please.


I learned a long time ago the wisest thing I can do is be on my own side, be an advocate for myself and others like me. -Maya Angelou
michael@shapeways.com Community Advocate
Re: I'm quickly loosing my faith in Shapeways [message #76100 is a reply to message #76085 ] Fri, 04 October 2013 14:40 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar PopeDesign  is currently offline PopeDesign
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Thanks michael,

I have contacted them and they contacted me back this morning and I've sent them the requested info. So things are in motion. My issue is since FUD rules have been changing so much (I had to even call them out on one occasion because the rules said one spec and I was being told the model got rejected for a spec that had not been changed in the rules, but they still rejected my model....) So I know if I change anything, it will probably get rejected again for another reason. Then before I know it, I have to completely change the model just to get it to print again even though its printed several times over.


Thanks,

-Jon


-Jon Pope

Re: I'm quickly loosing my faith in Shapeways [message #76103 is a reply to message #76078 ] Fri, 04 October 2013 14:53 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar PopeDesign  is currently offline PopeDesign
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Hi mkroeker,

First thing I did was contact customer service and things are in motion. But this is not the first time I've had issues with geometry that prints out with no problems to only be rejected. This post is out of a sheer feeling of being backed into a corner. I don't normally like to be a squeaky wheel because I don't believe its always the professional thing to do and it can come back to bite you. But my entire product line is now in jeopardy if this is going to be the norm for models that have already printed. So I've got nothing to lose and I feel this unfair issue needs to be brought to the Shapeways community.


Thanks,

-Jon


-Jon Pope

Re: I'm quickly loosing my faith in Shapeways [message #76104 is a reply to message #76103 ] Fri, 04 October 2013 15:01 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar mkroeker  is currently offline mkroeker
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Sure. Maybe I should have been clearer about the "Preventing Rejections" thread - it is full of designers relating similar experiences. Unfortunately
it also gets derailed from time to time as forum threads do, bona fide rejections get mixed up with real issues etc so it is hard to distill shapeways' stance
and corrective measures from it.
Re: I'm quickly loosing my faith in Shapeways [message #76105 is a reply to message #76104 ] Fri, 04 October 2013 15:11 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar AmLachDesigns  is currently offline AmLachDesigns
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Quote:

... so it is hard to distill shapeways' stance and corrective measures from it.


This is true. But although SW does not really join in this discussion, they are addressing the topic with Blog posts such as Dealing with Rejection.

There does seem to be a cruel irony in giving tips on how to make better shops, improve our photos etc (and who knows what is to come) when we cannot properly control how our shops look, and printing and photographing a print is no guarantee that a model will print consistently at all.
Re: I'm quickly loosing my faith in Shapeways [message #76106 is a reply to message #76069 ] Fri, 04 October 2013 15:16 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar PopeDesign  is currently offline PopeDesign
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Thanks for your kind words about my models Stu (may I add you've got some incredible stuff on your shop). Its extremely frustrating. The two models shown below obviously printed out. A lot of time and energy went into previous prototypes of the same models that also printed out with no problems. They where doubled up side by side so I could make two of each. When all I did was trim each file down to one model per file to do the first test print as a kit (and changed absolutely no geometry), they got rejected and the requested changes were to much work to make it worth it just to sell as kits.... Just two of several models I have printed, painted and ready to go for Z scale kits that will never see the light of day for Z scale consumers.

Thanks,

-Jon

index.php?t=getfile&id=42216&private=0


-Jon Pope

Re: I'm quickly loosing my faith in Shapeways [message #76108 is a reply to message #76105 ] Fri, 04 October 2013 15:27 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar mkroeker  is currently offline mkroeker
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Well, I thought it was a bit inappropriate too - on the other hand, the blog articles are the work of the public relations people who get paid to sing "happy happy joy joy" no matter what. (The recent website glitches also did not exactly make it look as if it was entirely the shop owners' fault if sales are below expectations)

But to be fair, the rejections thread may suffer from selection bias - we do not learn how many of these sometimes bizarre rejections there are
compared to the number of successful (repeat) orders, so what looks like the top of an iceberg may turn out to be an ice cube gone overboard after all.
(Though it worries me that some "key figures" are not as active - in the forums at least - as they used to be a year ago)
Re: I'm quickly loosing my faith in Shapeways [message #76110 is a reply to message #76059 ] Fri, 04 October 2013 15:44 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar Youknowwho4eva  is currently offline Youknowwho4eva
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Unfortunately a majority of the checking is done manually. And people are flawed and will sometimes miss things. The machines we have are awesome and can sometimes do better than we expect. So sometimes, something will print and ship that doesn't work all the time or even most of the time. We're working on making the job a little efficient.


I learned a long time ago the wisest thing I can do is be on my own side, be an advocate for myself and others like me. -Maya Angelou
michael@shapeways.com Community Advocate
Re: I'm quickly loosing my faith in Shapeways [message #76111 is a reply to message #76110 ] Fri, 04 October 2013 15:54 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar mkroeker  is currently offline mkroeker
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If I may ask - was this meant as a general statement, or relevant for this particular case ? (I assume the "other" meaning of FUD is known even
outside the free software community...)
Re: I'm quickly loosing my faith in Shapeways [message #76112 is a reply to message #76108 ] Fri, 04 October 2013 16:04 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar PopeDesign  is currently offline PopeDesign
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mkroeker,

In all fairness, I would have to ask how much of this is related to growing pains? Yes there are job shops out there that do FUD, they orient the part the way you want it printed out for the best quality print possible and they do a superior cleanup on support material before you even get the model. But they are also a lot more expensive and they don't have a "store" option that you can sell your products to the public. So I don't want to sound like I'm bashing Shapeways as a horrible service because its not. They are doing some great things and I hope they keep on doing great things.

But consistency is important in keeping everybody happy. I hope they do not become the Walmart of rapid prototyping. Squeezing the life out of its venders (us modelers) so they can get products to the customers with the least amount of effort for more profit. I realize that's a bit of a cynical view. But I also know that other venders have no problems printing out to the specs for FUD that Shapeways went by a year and a half ago when I first joined Shapeways. Instead of penalizing the modeler (the backbone of Shapeways business) , maybe they should look at how other venders are doing it before just changing the rules and taking away from the product instead of adding value to the product.

Thanks,

-Jon


-Jon Pope

Re: I'm quickly loosing my faith in Shapeways [message #76114 is a reply to message #76110 ] Fri, 04 October 2013 16:22 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar PopeDesign  is currently offline PopeDesign
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michael,

I have gotten that exact same explanation from customer service before. In all due respect, when you have geometry that you have spent hours or even days working on and its printed out numerous times before, the last thing you want to hear is what you just said for an explanation as t why things failed. I'm sure you don't mean it but it comes off like "Even though it printed out fine before, to bad, tough luck, we don't want spend the time to even verify that it had printed out fine numerous times before, we have washed our hands with this." At least that's how I felt when I was given this response by customer service.

Thanks,

-Jon


-Jon Pope

Re: I'm quickly loosing my faith in Shapeways [message #76115 is a reply to message #76059 ] Fri, 04 October 2013 17:09 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar Youknowwho4eva  is currently offline Youknowwho4eva
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Jon - I'm a designer as well so I understand the frustrations of designing stuff that gets rejected. I also design for a manufacturer, that I've worked on projects for months to have it never be produced (I know different as I still get paid but still frustrating). We are working on alleviating the oversights.


I learned a long time ago the wisest thing I can do is be on my own side, be an advocate for myself and others like me. -Maya Angelou
michael@shapeways.com Community Advocate
Re: I'm quickly loosing my faith in Shapeways [message #76256 is a reply to message #76115 ] Sun, 06 October 2013 20:48 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar KeXu  is currently offline KeXu
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If there was a button, "skip manual check at risk of ruining product"

Would you click it?
Re: I'm quickly loosing my faith in Shapeways [message #76260 is a reply to message #76256 ] Sun, 06 October 2013 21:03 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar Innovo  is currently offline Innovo
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KeXu wrote on Sun, 06 October 2013 20:48

If there was a button, "skip manual check at risk of ruining product"

Would you click it?


That's a good question. I think any experienced 3dp designer would, knowing the limitations and risks of their items.
I certainly would.



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Re: I'm quickly loosing my faith in Shapeways [message #76277 is a reply to message #76256 ] Mon, 07 October 2013 03:29 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar PopeDesign  is currently offline PopeDesign
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KeXu wrote on Sun, 06 October 2013 20:48

If there was a button, "skip manual check at risk of ruining product"

Would you click it?



In a heart beat. Design specs for FUD where a lot different a year or so ago when I first started using Shapewyas and I got excellent results conforming to those constraints. I put very small parts on parts trees. I have to understand structure and have to design with structure in order to do do my professional job so out of discipline alone I do the same with all my Shapeways models. I can honestly say I've never received broken parts from Shapeways with any of my models.

But in Shapeways defense, a poorly designed model can wreak havoc on the printer and production and me saying "I know this" and "I do that" really doesn't mean anything if my model royally screws things up for Shapeways.


-Jon Pope

Re: I'm quickly loosing my faith in Shapeways [message #76284 is a reply to message #76277 ] Mon, 07 October 2013 08:37 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar stop4stuff  is currently offline stop4stuff
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Hi Jon,

I know your frustration and have had more less the exact experiences with FUD models for OO scale - printed fine with no reported issues, promoted by Shapeways in the blog on Friday Finds, featured with credit to Shapeways (not me) in the Hornby Magazine (June 2012), then again featured by Shapeways in another blog article only to have all subsequent orders rejected due to changes in the 'rules'.

I used to really enjoy pushing the boundaries of 3Dp technology, but now after a serious breakdown, I am quite content to take my life in a totally different direction, only popping back to Shapeways once in a while to see if much has changed - sadly things don't seem to have changed.

On the upside, keep banging your head against the wall, sometime it might crumble.

All the best,
Paul
Re: I'm quickly loosing my faith in Shapeways [message #76291 is a reply to message #76059 ] Mon, 07 October 2013 13:04 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar Youknowwho4eva  is currently offline Youknowwho4eva
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Jon,

I heard back from service over the weekend. It appears your last rejection was the result of a small piece not being connected to the rest of the model. If you attach the small piece to your framework, your item will be printable. If you have any other order numbers you'd like me to check into, please let me know.

Mike


I learned a long time ago the wisest thing I can do is be on my own side, be an advocate for myself and others like me. -Maya Angelou
michael@shapeways.com Community Advocate
Re: I'm quickly loosing my faith in Shapeways [message #76316 is a reply to message #76291 ] Mon, 07 October 2013 18:58 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar kymatti  is currently offline kymatti
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Jon,

welcome to the club. My best story so far was the rejection of a model (because its not printable) at the same day as they printet them and send it out. And its unprintable since them......

Hans
Re: I'm quickly loosing my faith in Shapeways [message #76386 is a reply to message #76291 ] Tue, 08 October 2013 20:01 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar barkingdigger  is currently offline barkingdigger
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Hi Mike,

Having followed several of these threads, I'm curious. Does SW keep a tally of failed attempts for each model? I know it burns to get a rejection on something that plays by the published rules, and that might even have successfully printed in the past, but as a designer I'd be rather more sympathetic to the techie's rejection note if he/she could add "your one successful print in August took us four failed attempts" or similar, just so I could see how the balance was tipping. After all, we all know the "rules" evolve based on experience, and nobody wants to see SW go bust trying to print the unprintable!

Tom
Re: I'm quickly loosing my faith in Shapeways [message #76406 is a reply to message #76386 ] Tue, 08 October 2013 22:13 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar stonysmith  is currently offline stonysmith
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From one of my recent rejections:
Quote:

While we've been able to print this model before, as we continue to produce the model we've noticed that it does not print successfully. Despite our best efforts we've only been able to succesfully print this model 67% of the time. To continue printing this model we need your help to resolve these issues:


Since they said 67%.. I would say that YES, they can see how many times something was printed, and how many times it failed.
BUT... it is very likely that such statics are not available before the InShape2 upgrade last year, so for the shop owners like myself that have been here for a good long time, the number of failures might not be available for older models.


Patience, Persistance, Politeness - the 3Ps will help us get us to Perfect Printed Products
Re: I'm quickly loosing my faith in Shapeways [message #76407 is a reply to message #76406 ] Tue, 08 October 2013 23:14 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar stop4stuff  is currently offline stop4stuff
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So why don't Shapeways convey the print partner's finding as and when they occur... ffs that's what I've been asking for for over two years...

Clear and consise communication from whomever is good... repeating the same old stuff is bad.

I gave up banging my head against a wall coz my doctor said is was bad for me.

Why do you bother?

Paul
Re: I'm quickly loosing my faith in Shapeways [message #76415 is a reply to message #76407 ] Wed, 09 October 2013 02:26 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar UniverseBecoming  is currently offline UniverseBecoming
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I didn't read the thread, I just looked at the pictures. HAHAHA! Very Happy

Just wanted to say great work on finishing and painting these! Amazing work! Very Happy






It always was. It always was because somethingness cannot spawn from nothingness. And in the was of the past there is the forever of the now. Only now. Only now and nothing new, for anything new would add to the infinite, yet there can only be one infinite. Only one. The universe is only becoming something new in the delusion of our minds. This delusion that makes life worth living in our perceived universe becoming.
Re: I'm quickly loosing my faith in Shapeways [message #76437 is a reply to message #76406 ] Wed, 09 October 2013 13:29 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar barkingdigger  is currently offline barkingdigger
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Hi Stony,

That's interesting - having "failure rate" data sure helps us to understand when the rules alone just aren't enough to ensure a print. Do the records make any separation between failing to emerge whole from the printer, and breaking during cleaning/packing? (I've had stuff that prints ok in WSF, but apparently breaks if polished - but it was described in a note so I'm not sure if it was just anecdotal evidence rather than stats...)

Tom
Re: I'm quickly loosing my faith in Shapeways [message #76440 is a reply to message #76437 ] Wed, 09 October 2013 14:26 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
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barkingdigger wrote on Wed, 09 October 2013 13:29

Do the records make any separation between failing to emerge whole from the printer, and breaking during cleaning/packing?


I'm not able to answer that question. I don't have access to any of Shapeways internal systems or processes.. I was only reporting what I saw from my rejection email.


Patience, Persistance, Politeness - the 3Ps will help us get us to Perfect Printed Products
Re: I'm quickly loosing my faith in Shapeways [message #77034 is a reply to message #76440 ] Fri, 18 October 2013 20:41 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar PopeDesign  is currently offline PopeDesign
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OK, I've stayed silent for a bit to see how things would play out before I make any new comments with my issue. Unfortunately things have gotten worse, not better for the life expectancy for these two models.

Strike one,

somehow someone has ordered these models even though Shapeways has put a mandatory "not for sale" sign on the models in the store and it appears to be impossible to even order these models as the "buy" option is not even an option.... I've been told by customer service that they don't know how this happened and the only info they can see is that it was ordered on Oct. 15. But I'm sure I'll find out when I get a private message from a disappointed customer who's models they ordered got rejected. Once again, its my reputation for designing models that can be printed that's on the line, not Shapeways. And rightfully so. After all, they are rapid prototype company, not the designer. But I did not want this model sold if my customers are not going to get what they ordered. That's why as I previously mentioned I always order at least 2 models and make sure they can be printed and finished before I put them up for sale on my store.

Strike two,

I made all the suggested changes and was told to upload and update the new model. But I was also told that they can't tell me if the model will pass until someone orders it or if I order it.... I already successfully ordered the models at least twice each! Now I have to order it again???? I'm not made of money or have the time to test and finish models I have already done that for several times over! So instead, I have to wait for a customer to order it and keep my fingers crossed it does not get rejected. And if it does, once again I have a unsatisfied customer that is looking at pictures of a finished model in my store that they can't print out..... Regardless, model files are updated and are now "for sale" and I've done all I can do.

Strike three (not there yet),

Model gets rejected. I'm done. You win Shapeways and my customers lose....


-Jon Pope

Re: I'm quickly loosing my faith in Shapeways [message #77038 is a reply to message #77034 ] Fri, 18 October 2013 23:23 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar UniverseBecoming  is currently offline UniverseBecoming
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I just read your post in my email Jon.

Well said! That appears to be check mate to me. All Shapeways can do at this point is fix it. There is no way to smooth that over.

Perhaps Shapeways should not charge for further development of a model that has already been printed successfully. This just makes Shapeways look bad. Further developments wouldn't need to be shipped or extensively processed, just verified. So, basically all Shapeways would be loosing is the space in the printer and material cost, which isn't much of a loss when models could be put on standby for when space is available.

Doesn't Peter read the forum? Gosh, if I were the CEO I'd have this fixed in one day. It's going on months now! Very Happy

I know Shapeways is the pioneer here, but it seems to me, when viewing the gestalt of the problem, it's beyond the research and development stage. It's well into the DO SOMETHING STAGE! HAHAHA! Very Happy

Something needs to be done. Shapeways cannot afford to have designers getting to strike three and moving on.







It always was. It always was because somethingness cannot spawn from nothingness. And in the was of the past there is the forever of the now. Only now. Only now and nothing new, for anything new would add to the infinite, yet there can only be one infinite. Only one. The universe is only becoming something new in the delusion of our minds. This delusion that makes life worth living in our perceived universe becoming.
Re: I'm quickly loosing my faith in Shapeways [message #77053 is a reply to message #77038 ] Sat, 19 October 2013 06:51 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar PopeDesign  is currently offline PopeDesign
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James,

First thanks for all your kind words about my finished models, I really appreciate that.


I agree with you 100%. It would be one thing if I never printed a model out and demand it to work the first time. But if a model has been printed out several times over and then gets rejected, it should at least get tested at Shapeways expense when re submitted. Otherwise if it gets rejected again, the designer loses, the customer loses but Shapeways gets to keep the money and force the customer to spend it elsewhere in Shapeways. There might be good logistical reasons that Shapeways does that. But I don't know how they think this makes or keeps customers happy. In a way it makes them hostages. My customers that got a credit for these models have to either hope I can fix these models or hope they can find something else they want to buy. Otherwise they are stuck with a credit they may never use.....

Thanks,

-Jon


-Jon Pope

Re: I'm quickly loosing my faith in Shapeways [message #77060 is a reply to message #77034 ] Sat, 19 October 2013 09:00 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar mkroeker  is currently offline mkroeker
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PopeDesign wrote on Fri, 18 October 2013 20:41


somehow someone has ordered these models even though Shapeways has put a mandatory "not for sale" sign on the models in the store and it appears to be impossible to even order these models as the "buy" option is not even an option....

Suggests someone with higher powers - shapeways internal order to review printing of this model due to your complaint ?



Quote:

I made all the suggested changes and was told to upload and update the new model. But I was also told that they can't tell me if the model will pass until someone orders it or if I order it...

Strange. It used to be that one could ask service to check a model "out of line" ?
Re: I'm quickly loosing my faith in Shapeways [message #77099 is a reply to message #77060 ] Sat, 19 October 2013 23:36 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar PopeDesign  is currently offline PopeDesign
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Quote:

I made all the suggested changes and was told to upload and update the new model. But I was also told that they can't tell me if the model will pass until someone orders it or if I order it...

Strange. It used to be that one could ask service to check a model "out of line" ?
[/quote]

That's what I thought....


-Jon Pope

Re: I'm quickly loosing my faith in Shapeways [message #77119 is a reply to message #77038 ] Sun, 20 October 2013 10:52 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar MitchellJetten  is currently offline MitchellJetten
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UniverseBecoming wrote on Fri, 18 October 2013 23:23



Doesn't Peter read the forum? Gosh, if I were the CEO I'd have this fixed in one day. It's going on months now! Very Happy



I'm sure he does Wink
But please do note: as much as we would love to, this can't be fixed in one day Sad

@Popedesign, send the file to mitchell@shapeways.com I'll check it for you, together with the production team Smile (tomorrow, not today Smile )


Kind regards,

Mitchell Jetten
Customer Service Coordinator
Shapeways
Re: I'm quickly loosing my faith in Shapeways [message #77171 is a reply to message #77119 ] Mon, 21 October 2013 06:56 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar UniverseBecoming  is currently offline UniverseBecoming
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MitchellJetten wrote on Sun, 20 October 2013 10:52

UniverseBecoming wrote on Fri, 18 October 2013 23:23



Doesn't Peter read the forum? Gosh, if I were the CEO I'd have this fixed in one day. It's going on months now! Very Happy



I'm sure he does Wink
But please do note: as much as we would love to, this can't be fixed in one day Sad



Ask Peter if I can be the CEO for a day and I'll fix it in ONE DAY! Very Happy

Maybe you guys should have a FIX SHAPEWAYS IN ONE DAY contest! The winner gets CEO wages for a day! HAHAHA! Very Happy

Ok, seriously though. I would ask you why you think it is that it cannot be fixed in one day, but I'm aware that you're not at liberty to discuss some of the possibly proprietary operating methods of Shapeways, so you might not actually be able to have a conversation about that. And perhaps there is a whole list of hidden things I am being naive about that would in fact prevent me from fixing it in one day. Regardless, I know that I could create a company like Shapeways that wouldn't have these ongoing problems centered around rejection.

That said, let me just show you one of the things I could do in about the first two hours just to buy me time for the rest of the day. Ok, what is the number one problem with rejections? The number one problem is that the designers are getting perturbed when they feel they are not being treated fairly. Correct? They never get perturbed when they make an actual error and it is pointed out. They get perturbed when they're doing everything right, in their mind, while still receiving rejections of various kinds and in various ways.

Ok, how to fix that. Simply inform designers right there in the design rules that the rules are not actually rules. That if a designer spent a month designing something by the rules it doesn't necessarily guarantee that it won't be rejected.

In this way, prospective designers will know what they are getting into right from the beginning and therefore they will not get perturbed when they get the kinds of rejections everyone is complaining about.

At first glance it would appear that new designers would be reluctant after reading that notice and would shy away from using Shapeways and consequently Shapeways would lose revenue. However, without that notice you're actually losing more business when the foundation stones of your business turn into pillars of hate. When they go out to the public and describe all manor of unfair treatment perpetrated by Shapeways.

I could fix all the other stuff too, provided I'm envisioning the entire picture there at Shapeways and nothing is hidden from me.

If you can think it, you can make it. Smile






It always was. It always was because somethingness cannot spawn from nothingness. And in the was of the past there is the forever of the now. Only now. Only now and nothing new, for anything new would add to the infinite, yet there can only be one infinite. Only one. The universe is only becoming something new in the delusion of our minds. This delusion that makes life worth living in our perceived universe becoming.
Re: I'm quickly loosing my faith in Shapeways [message #77174 is a reply to message #77171 ] Mon, 21 October 2013 07:38 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar MitchellJetten  is currently offline MitchellJetten
Messages: 673
Registered: June 2011
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Senior Member
I work here
[url]https://www.shapeways.com/jobs[url]

Haha feel free to check out or Jobs page Very Happy
--

The design rules page should be updated, I agree on this.
However I think it does take some time to cover all these points on that page as the main issue is that none of the rules can actually be applied to every kind of structure.

Best case would of course be changing the minimum required thickness for FUD to 1mm because that will be ok for almost 90% of the models.
Though that won't be fair as we know that some models can easily be printed at 0.5mm

--

Now the models from Popedesign.
There are 2 issues here:

1. Shapeways didn't check the models correctly.
2. The model contains multiple shells which aren't attached to the rest of the model.

index.php?t=getfile&id=43300&private=0

As you can see here, the model contains out of 4 shells, 2 of them are below our minimum size of 12mm.
The models are currently in production, and this is where number 1 comes in, SW didn't check the models correctly.

Even though the model is currently being reprinted due to "Multiple shells", they still decided to reprint the model.
If they would have checked the model they would have seen that those parts aren't connected to the rest and thus will get missing.
This shouldn't have happened in the first place and i do apologize for this.

Our supply chain team will educate the people in New York this afternoon to make sure it won't happen again.

This said, I really hope that PopeDesign is able to make sure that parts are actually connected and not floating around Smile

Does this help a bit?

  • Attachment: model.JPG
    (Size: 228.60KB, Downloaded 863 time(s))

[Updated on: Mon, 21 October 2013 07:43 UTC]


Kind regards,

Mitchell Jetten
Customer Service Coordinator
Shapeways
Re: I'm quickly loosing my faith in Shapeways [message #77178 is a reply to message #77171 ] Mon, 21 October 2013 08:07 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar mkroeker  is currently offline mkroeker
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UniverseBecoming wrote on Mon, 21 October 2013 06:56


Ask Peter if I can be the CEO for a day and I'll fix it in ONE DAY! Very Happy


Yeah, folks will sooo look forward to rejection messages once those get semi-funny three-liners appended Very Happy

Seriously, the problem (as I see it) is not rejections as such, but (seemingly) inconsistent ones, in particular unexpected rejections of parts that were successfully printed before. Part of this is a training issue, which will take more than a day to "fix" unless you develop a way to flash people's brains
from a single "known-good" source. Another part is a log-keeping issue, it must be clearer what was or was not successfully printed, and printing
results must be communicated to the designer automatically where necessary. Third part is redesigning the flow of information when a third-party
order is affected - does the (presumably inexperienced) customer just get a normal rejection message, or does the designer get a chance to resolve
the problem without the customer even knowing it existed.

On the other hand, from what we see in the other discussions here, the issue appears to be compounded with cases where the designers tricked themselves - making supposedly minor changes to successful models that cause them to fail, unknowingly stabilizing fragile designs by printing
them in linked groups and then wondering why the print of an isolated item fails. And last but not least, we see "selection bias" at work - reports are
almost exclusively of things that went wrong, and only shapeways knows how big a percentage of all orders (or even just all shop orders) these
represent.

Re: I'm quickly loosing my faith in Shapeways [message #77181 is a reply to message #77171 ] Mon, 21 October 2013 09:15 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar AmLachDesigns  is currently offline AmLachDesigns
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Quote:

Ask Peter if I can be the CEO for a day and I'll fix it in ONE DAY!


Er, no disrespect, but Mr Weijmarshausen has done pretty well so far so he gets my vote.


Quote:

On the other hand, from what we see in the other discussions here, the issue appears to be compounded with cases where the designers tricked themselves...

I don't think anyone can reasonably complain about true problems with their models - yes, it's frustrating but fair is fair. In my case (and, believe me, I know not everyone agrees with me!) I would prefer that a model is rejected than printed once but not again without mods. That way I have a clear idea where I stand. But then that succesful model should always print, normal snafus notwithstanding.


Quote:

And last but not least, we see "selection bias" at work - reports are almost exclusively of things that went wrong, and only shapeways knows how big a percentage of all orders (or even just all shop orders) these represent.

Very true. Human nature I would suppose, but SW seem pretty good at accepting the negative feedback and moving on.

I would add that SW is my favourite 3D Printing company for many reasons, and that the reason I offer my (apparently unheeded) suggestions is to make SW an even better company than it already is.
Re: I'm quickly loosing my faith in Shapeways [message #77182 is a reply to message #77181 ] Mon, 21 October 2013 09:44 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar MitchellJetten  is currently offline MitchellJetten
Messages: 673
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I work here
We really do appreciate all the feedback and do use it!

I really really really wish I was allowed to talk about stuff that is in the pipeline, cause you will all love it Wink
The projects we are working on are actually rather big and will have a huge impact (let's check my post in 6 months,, you will all say "he was right")

Unfortunately the server issues from last week have caused a small delay on all these projects as we have been working hard on restoring those issues.


Kind regards,

Mitchell Jetten
Customer Service Coordinator
Shapeways
Re: I'm quickly loosing my faith in Shapeways [message #77217 is a reply to message #76059 ] Mon, 21 October 2013 15:29 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar Youknowwho4eva  is currently offline Youknowwho4eva
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As shown in the image, there are legitimate reasons these items were rejected, even though these elements were over looked previously. I'd like this thread to continue to be constructive about the issues originally posted and not sent off topic. So from this point forward, if you have something to say about rejections that isn't directly related to the issue originally posted, please feel free to on the Preventing Rejections thread in the Suggestions section.

[Updated on: Mon, 21 October 2013 15:30 UTC]


I learned a long time ago the wisest thing I can do is be on my own side, be an advocate for myself and others like me. -Maya Angelou
michael@shapeways.com Community Advocate
Re: I'm quickly loosing my faith in Shapeways [message #77334 is a reply to message #77181 ] Tue, 22 October 2013 20:13 UTC Go to previous messageGo to previous message
avatar UniverseBecoming  is currently offline UniverseBecoming
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AmLachDesigns wrote on Mon, 21 October 2013 09:15

Quote:

Ask Peter if I can be the CEO for a day and I'll fix it in ONE DAY!


Er, no disrespect, but Mr Weijmarshausen has done pretty well so far so he gets my vote.


Agreed! I highly admire Pete! He's actually managed to change my entire outlook on life, since building things has been my lifelong pursuit and Shapeways is all about helping people build things. Smile






It always was. It always was because somethingness cannot spawn from nothingness. And in the was of the past there is the forever of the now. Only now. Only now and nothing new, for anything new would add to the infinite, yet there can only be one infinite. Only one. The universe is only becoming something new in the delusion of our minds. This delusion that makes life worth living in our perceived universe becoming.

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