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FUD wax removal. [message #28535] Fri, 03 June 2011 07:34 UTC Go to next message
avatar stop4stuff  is currently offline stop4stuff
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With the arrival of FUD and the ability to have very small clearances between moving parts in one print, to me one obvious application was an attempt at creating the worlds smallest working rubiks cube - the current record stands at 10mm, my cube is 6.2mm and printed in one hit Smile

3x3x3 Twisty Puzzle (aka Rubiks Cube)
http://www.stop4stuff.com/shapeways/FUDtastic/images/lotsa-3x3x3-cubes-sml.jpg
Large image here

The spacing (as printed) between the parts is 0.1mm - the spaces are filled with the wax support material. Here's a few of the methods/products I have tried in an attempt to disolve out the wax and free up the parts.

Hot water - the wax melted out, but some of the parts were fused and one part broke - I tried two cubes out using this method, the second broke too.

Alcohol hand sanitiser - this product contains 62% ethanol and seemed to affect both the wax and plastic resulting in some parts stuck together, the central spindles gone soft and broken.

Penetrating oil (WD40 etc) - partial success, but still one of the central spindles broke.

Mineral/white spirit - disolves the wax ok, but also softens the plastic leading to breakage and failure.

Ear Wax Remover - still soaking in this - the remover is quite a viscous fluid at room temperature, and thins qute readily with a bit of heat - this product may work out ok if the temperature can be kept 10-15 celcius above roome temperature (think body heat)

Weak NaOH soultion (caustic soda/lye) - still soaking in this - again this is looking promising

One of the main issues I have with the cubes are the spindles breaking - currently they are 0.7mm diameter - this maybe because I am not waiting long enough before attempting to move the parts.

Feel free to add ideas, share attempts, sucesses & failures.

Cheers,
Paul
Re: FUD wax removal. [message #28537 is a reply to message #28535 ] Fri, 03 June 2011 08:37 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar virtox  is currently offline virtox
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I had great results with hot water and (mlid, the eco-stuff) dish soap. (and some patience Wink )

I was able to clean out 0.3 mm through holes in a few mini-Menger cubes. As one can imagine, there is a LOT of support stuck in the holes, the bags were all greasy etc.

I just put them in a jar with the water and soap, and stirred and shaked.
You can see all the wax dissolve a float to the top. Rinse and repeat.

After two runs the yellow was nearly gone and all holes were visible.

While not as brittle as your designs, I can recommend it for cleaning holes.


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Re: FUD wax removal. [message #28538 is a reply to message #28537 ] Fri, 03 June 2011 09:41 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar Spoors  is currently offline Spoors
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Hi,
I have had good success with Acetone, which was recommended by the guys at Fineline Prototyping (who also use materials by 3D-Systems).
It does not seem to affect the FUD and resolves the wax. Just be careful with the stuff and use gloves.

Cheers,

Jeroen

[Updated on: Fri, 03 June 2011 09:42 UTC]

Re: FUD wax removal. [message #28540 is a reply to message #28538 ] Fri, 03 June 2011 10:12 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar stop4stuff  is currently offline stop4stuff
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Jeroen, thanks for the tip... I think I have some acetone in my garage - and my wife or daughter probably has some nail varnish remover (contains acetone). Also, it just sprung to mind acetone->acetic acid->vinegar - google results show vinegar can be used to dissolve wax Smile

Cheers,
Paul
Re: FUD wax removal. [message #28598 is a reply to message #28540 ] Sat, 04 June 2011 16:54 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar LincolnK  is currently offline LincolnK
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Have you tried hydrogen peroxide?

Also, I am curious, with the acetone, do you just soak the object in it, or use a q-tip to just wipe away the parts that have the wax?

If you soak it, how long do you soak it for?


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Re: FUD wax removal. [message #28641 is a reply to message #28598 ] Mon, 06 June 2011 06:56 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar Spoors  is currently offline Spoors
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I do not soak the object in acetone, I just use a q-tip and a brush.

Cheers,

Jeroen
Re: FUD wax removal. [message #28801 is a reply to message #28537 ] Thu, 09 June 2011 05:32 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar tebee  is currently offline tebee
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Going back to the original post why should hot water cause any problems ? Fud is a plastic and should not be affected by water. The only reason I can think of is that it was not properly cured in the first place.

I've had items in it sitting in near boiling water for 40 mins at a time without problems while I've been dyeing it.

Tom
Re: FUD wax removal. [message #28810 is a reply to message #28801 ] Thu, 09 June 2011 13:03 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar stop4stuff  is currently offline stop4stuff
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FUD is acrylic with a softening point lower than boiling water temperature - I think my little cubes failed because the internal parts became deformed and when I tried to move the pieces, they broke... the cubes really are tiny and the wax inside is 0.1mm thick, so surface tension between water & wax is at play too.

I popped a cube in a jar of just boiled water and microwaved it, keeping the water boilng for 5 minutes - after cooling some parts are still solidly joined by wax, and the plastic has gone from transparent to a milky white.

Of all of the things I've tried so far, ear wax remover is ahead, but it does need to be kept at a constsant temperature to thin enough to work on the wax, and yes it has been days now that one cube has been in the remover.

Diluted household amonia solution didn't do much.

I still have yet to try acetone/nail varnish remover.

[Updated on: Thu, 09 June 2011 13:07 UTC]

Re: FUD wax removal. [message #28812 is a reply to message #28535 ] Thu, 09 June 2011 13:23 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar tebee  is currently offline tebee
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Ah OK I've always kept my water just below boiling point , I've noticed even WSF gets quite soft as at that point.

Have you tried mechanical means, like an ultrasonic cleaner? I've got one and find it wonderful for crud out of places you can't easily get to. Look for a friendly dental lab or jeweler near you as they almost certainly have one.
Re: FUD wax removal. [message #28817 is a reply to message #28812 ] Thu, 09 June 2011 14:14 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar Spoors  is currently offline Spoors
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Just try the Acetone ... no need to soak it for days ... Very Happy
Re: FUD wax removal. [message #28818 is a reply to message #28817 ] Thu, 09 June 2011 14:34 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar stop4stuff  is currently offline stop4stuff
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I have one sitting in nail varnish remover right now (I couldn't find the pure acetone I thought I had in my garage)

Will see how it goes.

Re: FUD wax removal. [message #28854 is a reply to message #28818 ] Fri, 10 June 2011 07:45 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar jasolo  is currently offline jasolo
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I have tried nail varnish remover (with castor oil) diluted in water with my level-4 menger cube. I dipped it during a couple of hours, but only some superficial holes were cleaned.

Now I'm trying again with Tetrachloroethylene (also called Perchloroethylene), used in dry cleaning of fabrics and to degrease metal parts. The first time I had previously dipped the model in dish soap, and only checked the cleanness of the holes when the model was wet, although I think this method didn't go deep. I'm saying all of this because after using Tetrachloroethylene, the holes seemed uncleaned when wet, but when dried the wax was missing (0.3mm holes). Now FUD looks white, but not transparent, although maybe the complexity of the Menger model makes difficult to see any transparency. I could check this with a simpler FD model that shows some transparency.

Now for the second try I'm using the model used for the nail varmish remover test. I have also diluted the tetrachloroethylene in water, although this substance has low solubility and sinks to the bottom. In the first try I stirred the mix a couple of times during 2-3 hours. In this second try I've stirred once and I'll check the result after 8-10 hours (left at home).
Re: FUD wax removal. [message #28878 is a reply to message #28854 ] Fri, 10 June 2011 18:17 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar jasolo  is currently offline jasolo
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Definitely, tetrachloroethylene removes the wax but it must be used purely or stirring when mixed with water, and in less than 1-2 hours. The problem is the material gets really "white frosted" once dried, as when very cold metal condenses the water vapour in air. I've tested that with a FD model and only the flattest surfaces doesn't get white (only in the printed lines) while curved surfaces get fully white as White Detail material got dyed with tea on curved surfaces.
Re: FUD wax removal. [message #28879 is a reply to message #28854 ] Fri, 10 June 2011 19:07 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar stop4stuff  is currently offline stop4stuff
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Nail varnish remover claims a victim Sad

I kept checking a cube in the nail varnish remover, after 24 hours, there was still wax between about a 1/3rd of the parts, the last time I lifted the cube out, all the bits that were free of wax fell apart.

Ear wax remover is still looking good, even though it is slow.

Re: FUD wax removal. [message #28897 is a reply to message #28879 ] Sat, 11 June 2011 15:19 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar SIXTHSCALE  is currently offline SIXTHSCALE
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has anyone tried Hydrogen Peroxide yet? None of my FUD models have wax on them, so i can't try it myself but i have more complex models coming and am curious if anyone has attempted it... i've noticed that it seems to work better than ear wax remover at removing earwax, and it is much thinner.
Re: FUD wax removal. [message #29060 is a reply to message #28897 ] Wed, 15 June 2011 00:03 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar ErkDemon  is currently offline ErkDemon
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Peroxide: I've tried sitting a smelly yellow "waxy" FUD model in room-temperature peroxide for a couple of days, but it did nothing.

Tried earwax remover (peanut oil with alcohol), and dunked the thing in hot water, the oil that came up to the surface was "yellowy", so some wax had been removed. After repeated dunking in boiling water, alcohol, peroxide and anything else I had to hand in various combinations, the holes in my weeny 4-G Menger sponge have opened up, but the crinkly fractal snowflake sponge is still very yellow. I'll have to give acetone a go.

To be fair, the snowflake sponge is probably a worst-case scanario, the 3cm 4-Gen Menger sponge was pretty pale (just a little smelly), but the snowflake sponge was almost lemon-yellow. That was with about two hundred thousand faces, most at right-angles to their neighbours, and all sorts of voids with multiple pinhole openings, so the surface area and surface tension for coatings on it must be horrendous Very Happy
I'm sure that normal models are fine in FUD. Actually, I don't mind the smallest holes not all being totally clear (they're so small that it's difficult for people to tell), I'm more interested in getting rid of the colour and the odour with these "jaggy" fractal shapes.

Sharpness and crispness of detail with FUD is really excellent, btw.


ErkDemon (Eric Baird)
Re: FUD wax removal. [message #29061 is a reply to message #29060 ] Wed, 15 June 2011 00:51 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar SIXTHSCALE  is currently offline SIXTHSCALE
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so that wierd dill pickle smell isn't just my imagination? Laughing
Re: FUD wax removal. [message #29189 is a reply to message #29060 ] Thu, 16 June 2011 19:30 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar jasolo  is currently offline jasolo
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ErkDemon wrote on Wed, 15 June 2011 00:03


To be fair, the snowflake sponge is probably a worst-case scanario, the 3cm 4-Gen Menger sponge was pretty pale (just a little smelly), but the snowflake sponge was almost lemon-yellow.

I had forgotten to post an image after the cleaning with tetrachloroethylene. As I said, the wax disappeared but the material got white on the surface (the holes are 0.3mm wide). The whitening isn't a problem in this model, so many small details makes difficult to see any transparency, but for other models will be surely a problem and tetrachloroethylene has been classified as probably carcinogenic to humans.

index.php?t=getfile&id=9461&private=0

Re: FUD wax removal. [message #29505 is a reply to message #29189 ] Wed, 22 June 2011 21:55 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar jasolo  is currently offline jasolo
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I have tried two new methods with a new Menger cube:

- The first one is the slowest and consists of putting the FUD model over a paper on a warm ambient (over the router or through the warm air expelled by the computer's power supply fan). The liquified wax gets trapped on the paper, so it must be replaced by a new clean one periodically. After several hours only some clean holes were visible so this method requires a lot of time but is the less aggressive.

- The second one is quicker and uses white spirit (Stoddard solvent), the solvent used in painting. All the holes got clean and the material didn't got white as happened with tetrachloroethylene, but I'm not sure if it affects in another way the surface of FUD/FD objects (no more FD models at hand). Could anyone test white spirit on flat and curved surfaces?.
Re: FUD wax removal. [message #30235 is a reply to message #29505 ] Tue, 05 July 2011 16:19 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar BillBedford  is currently offline BillBedford
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The white stuff is actually part of the build. It happens when there is an interface between the plastic and the wax support material. See this photo http://www.shapeways.com/forum/index.php?t=getfile&id=89 44&private=0. You can see there is a little trail of white beneath each column of bolt heads where the was has supported the surface detail. Sometimes if you run your finger nail over the model surface you can feel that the white part is slightly raised.
The only way I have found to deal with it is by abrasion, either with a glass brush or by burnishing the surface with a wooden stick.


Bill Bedford
icon14.gif  Re: FUD wax removal. [message #30853 is a reply to message #29505 ] Thu, 14 July 2011 13:23 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar merana33  is currently offline merana33
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I've had this issue myself and I've been doing quite a bit of thinking on how to address it.

It seems to me that the method that would likely be used in a full production environment would either be a solvent specifically formulated for the support wax, or a heating proccess at a controlled temperature to melt the wax from the part.

Now without knowing the specific formulation of the support wax our best bet would be to do the baking method. The difficulty comes with the fact that most ovens aren't designed to heat slowly over a long period of time.

And then it hit me one morning, every one of us has a low temperature, slow heating oven. Our car dashboard.

So I tossed my waxy parts onto a shop towel on my dashboard one morning after I got to work. By lunchtime most of the wax had melted into the towel. I shuffled the parts a bit to free some support wax that wasn't draining properly and by the time my workday was over, a good 80-90% of the yellow wax was gone.

The parts were a bit softer while warm, but returned to normal once cool.

Now my parts didn't have a whole lot of nooks and crannies so YMMV, but with proper orientation for wax drainage this method -should- work for most designs.

The main concern would be to keep the parts from getting -too- hot and warping, but just cracking your car window open a bit can help mitigate the higher temperatures.
Re: FUD wax removal. [message #30899 is a reply to message #30853 ] Fri, 15 July 2011 08:38 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar stop4stuff  is currently offline stop4stuff
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Well, after a very long time soaking in earwax remover, my 3x3x3 puzzle cube is still not working, all of the wax is soft enough that the parts that aren't fused are free. As you can see from the image below, there's only 2 parts fused, unfortunately they are center pieces and there's no way around the situation apart from making a slightly bigger cube.

http://www.stop4stuff.com/shapeways/puzzles/3x3x3-cube/images/3x3x3-in-pieces-sml.jpg
Large image here

It seems that there are a variety of methods that work getting the wax out of FUD that are mainly size dependant.

This thread is good resource!

Hey ho, on with the fun FUD Smile

Re: FUD wax removal. [message #30905 is a reply to message #28535 ] Fri, 15 July 2011 09:48 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar minimaker  is currently offline minimaker
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I've yet to try what cleaning method works best (my order is still not in) but from the sound of it I could give my putty oven a try. I made it for curing epoxy putty at a constant temperature (normally between 60-76 centigrade) but it could be turned lower. Though it will still be warmer than the dashboard or router.

[Updated on: Fri, 15 July 2011 09:52 UTC]

Re: FUD wax removal. [message #31551 is a reply to message #30905 ] Tue, 26 July 2011 05:50 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar dhammond  is currently offline dhammond
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I have had reasonable results using isopropanol (IPA) with a brush then using a low pressure compressed air source to blow out any blocked holes.
Re: FUD wax removal. [message #32749 is a reply to message #31551 ] Mon, 15 August 2011 18:31 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar denali3ddesign  is currently offline denali3ddesign
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I am thinking of printing a functioning bolt and nut assembly together(in the tightened position), with perhaps a 0.1-0.2 mm clearance between the threads. After I receive the print, I want to be able to unscrew the bolt for final cleaning, and be able to put it back and tighten it down.

The bolt diameter will be about 6mm, and length about 10mm. Based on the comments in this thread, I'm pretty sure I won't be able to get all the wax out from between the threads prior to unscrewing the assembly, but will it be possible to use the wax as a lube to facilitate the removal process?


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Re: FUD wax removal. [message #32751 is a reply to message #32749 ] Mon, 15 August 2011 18:54 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar Magic  is currently offline Magic
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Sorry if I do not answer your question, but ask a question instead: I am wondering why you want to print the bold already in its tightened position?


So many things to design, so little time...
Re: FUD wax removal. [message #32763 is a reply to message #32751 ] Mon, 15 August 2011 22:49 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar denali3ddesign  is currently offline denali3ddesign
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In short, customer request...

Actually, I described part of the design incorrectly - it is not meant to be taken out for cleaning or anything, but just tightened down the final little bit.

Make sense?


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Re: FUD wax removal. [message #32787 is a reply to message #32763 ] Tue, 16 August 2011 08:18 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar Magic  is currently offline Magic
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Just my opinion but personnally, if the bolt has to be removed, I would be printed apart (in the same file, but not in its final position). If it has not to be removed I would fuse it with the rest of the design.
Printing in place a part that can be removed is just adding extra risks to the print...
But if it's a custumer request... Rolling Eyes


So many things to design, so little time...
Re: FUD wax removal. [message #32844 is a reply to message #32787 ] Wed, 17 August 2011 13:46 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar denali3ddesign  is currently offline denali3ddesign
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Thanks for your help, Magic.


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Re: FUD wax removal. [message #33031 is a reply to message #32844 ] Sun, 21 August 2011 21:24 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar JamieMcBride  is currently offline JamieMcBride
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Has anyone tried removing the wax by sticking the model in a microwave, and give them a good nuking? Or is that likely to end in tears?

What we/Shapeways need is one of these puppies:

http://www.rapid-direction.com/product/3D-PJFIN/InVision-Pro Jet-3D-Finisher.html

I've tried hot water and fairy liquid dunking for several hours, but the model is still decidedly yellow and smelling of the lemony wax material (to my nose). I'm going to try the car/towel/dashboard idea tomorrow, assuming it's sunny

[Updated on: Sun, 21 August 2011 21:25 UTC]


Jamie McBride
Re: FUD wax removal. [message #33032 is a reply to message #33031 ] Sun, 21 August 2011 21:36 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar stop4stuff  is currently offline stop4stuff
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I did have success with the following to remove surface wax residue;

Step 1: scrub nail varnish remover (acetone based) on with a stiff artist's paint brush.
Step 2: put a drop of washing up liquid in a glass with about 100ml water & nuke @ 450w for 1 min.
Step 3: repeat steps 1 & 2
Step 4: rinse really well under clean water.

Gloves and/or tweezers were used so as not to get skin oils on the cleaned model.

The little rubiks cubes never did work out, and I've yet to figure out a way of getting the wax out of enclosed spaces.


Re: FUD wax removal. [message #33033 is a reply to message #33031 ] Sun, 21 August 2011 21:51 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar stannum  is currently offline stannum
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The material page already mentions using an oven, plus a freezer (for separating from the base tray?) and two ultrasound baths, oil one for wax removal and water one for cleaning the oil. So... @_@
Re: FUD wax removal. [message #33034 is a reply to message #33033 ] Sun, 21 August 2011 22:15 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar BillBedford  is currently offline BillBedford
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I've removed the wax completely by dunking the pieces in a commercial degreaser, the sort sold in car shops for cleaning engines. But be warned: the removing the wax will reveal a spongy surface where the plastic and wax were laid down next to each other.

[Updated on: Sun, 21 August 2011 22:15 UTC]


Bill Bedford
Re: FUD wax removal. [message #33125 is a reply to message #33034 ] Tue, 23 August 2011 09:02 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar MitchellJetten is currently online MitchellJetten
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I work here
Hi all,

Thank you very much for all these techniques!
Great to see a community working together to see what the best way is of getting rid of the support material / wax.

I do can tell you that we do not deliver any of those models with a lot of wax anymore!
If everything goes alright, you should get a wax free model.

Ohh btw, please smell your model! Smile smells much nicer now Smile

If not, please send an email to service@shapeways.com with a picture of your model, so we can complain at the printing department that they still delivered models with a lot of wax.

Do take in mind, this is only just yet for orders which are delivered since last week (or maybe 2 already)


Kind regards,

Mitchell Jetten
Customer Service Coordinator
Shapeways
Re: FUD wax removal. [message #33148 is a reply to message #33125 ] Tue, 23 August 2011 13:58 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar JamieMcBride  is currently offline JamieMcBride
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Thanks Bill, Stop4 for the further techniques. Leaving to heat up on the car dashboard worked well yesterday and it's definitely less yellowy now. 28 DegsC on my read out when I got back in the car after work. Grey rainy day in the UK today, so no further heating today.

Thanks for the update Mitchell. I was wondering whether the FUD wax situation would improve at the production end or whether it would be an issue to have fellow enthusiasts buy items with the wax, so this puts our minds at rest. My part came through in "The Rush" period a month or more back, so maybe the heating process wasn't quite in place to get models out of the door quicker (perfectly understandable).


Jamie McBride
Re: FUD wax removal. [message #33208 is a reply to message #33125 ] Wed, 24 August 2011 03:18 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar colleenjordan  is currently offline colleenjordan
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Mitchell,

I received models yesterday that were coated in the yellow wax... Are you sure?
Re: FUD wax removal. [message #33269 is a reply to message #33125 ] Wed, 24 August 2011 22:43 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar stop4stuff  is currently offline stop4stuff
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Mitchell Jetten wrote on Tue, 23 August 2011 09:02


...
Ohh btw, please smell your model! Smile smells much nicer now Smile
...



Ana said in tonight's SW live that Baby Shampoo works a treat! (perhaps that's why it smells nicer Wink)

Re: FUD wax removal. [message #33275 is a reply to message #33269 ] Thu, 25 August 2011 00:53 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar colleenjordan  is currently offline colleenjordan
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Any specific type of baby shampoo you would recommend, and how to use it?

I received a lot of models that were coated with a crystalline lemon yellow wax. I've tried soaking them in boiling water, and wiping them with a variety of solvents, like acetone. These techniques work okay. The acetone has worked the best, but still doesn't help out when the wax is stuck inside the model. The downside of this is its not perfect, and there's still yellow crud in inside my models, and I've just exposed myself to nasty chemicals that I wanted to avoid in the first place.
Re: FUD wax removal. [message #33801 is a reply to message #33275 ] Mon, 05 September 2011 10:34 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar minimaker  is currently offline minimaker
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Hi,

just did the test with the putty oven and it works like a charm. I've got it at a constant 55 degrees centigrade and the wax melts nicely. Very easy to rub away in a few minutes. Think I found my method for wax removing. Smile

Bye,
Ming-Hua
Re: FUD wax removal. [message #33808 is a reply to message #33801 ] Mon, 05 September 2011 14:41 UTC Go to previous messageGo to previous message
avatar stop4stuff  is currently offline stop4stuff
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@Ming-Hua, do you know if your method also gets the wax off the surface ready for painting?

I picked up an ultrasonic cleaner the other day and was testing that out with different detergents (Johnson's Baby Shampoo, JPL Sea Clean & ordinary wahing-up liquid), but the cleaner broke so I'm waiting on the replacement. The cleaner was able to get most of the yellow staining though.


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