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Inverted Normals nowhere to be found in Dragon Necklace. [message #3954] Sun, 19 April 2009 02:23 UTC Go to next message
avatar murderslastcrow  is currently offline murderslastcrow
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I've looked over this model's normals to ensure they were all aligned correctly, and I'm absolutely certain there are no problem areas. Looked over every polygon just to make sure. However, the validation service still tells me there are inverted/mixed/irregular normals.

You may view the model below, as well as the attached .stl.

http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq40/murderslastcrow/dragonnecklacepreview.jpg

Could someone please assist me? I really want to get this necklace made and see what kind of results I get. I'm really unaware of what the issue could be.

Re: Inverted Normals nowhere to be found in Dragon Necklace. [message #3955 is a reply to message #3954 ] Sun, 19 April 2009 04:44 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar jdavidbush  is currently offline jdavidbush
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Hi murderslastcrow,

Have you tried inverting all the normals? When I open that file with MeshLab, it looks like all the faces are turned inward.

David
Re: Inverted Normals nowhere to be found in Dragon Necklace. [message #3956 is a reply to message #3955 ] Sun, 19 April 2009 05:06 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar murderslastcrow  is currently offline murderslastcrow
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Interesting- I'll certainly try that, first of all. I think I may have noticed a few issues that might concern manifold-ness, so I'll test that after this and report back on this thread. Any other suggestions or ideas in the meantime would be appreciated.
Re: Inverted Normals nowhere to be found in Dragon Necklace. [message #3958 is a reply to message #3956 ] Sun, 19 April 2009 11:17 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar AO  is currently offline AO
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Hi murderslastcrow,

I was able to get ride of the inverted normals.
But you've still problems in the colored area's. If I try to fix them I end up in destroying the model.
You maybe don't see it but also some of the rings of the necklace are stuck together.
I think you should remodel it .

Check also the other pdf, made after cleaning the inverted normals. You still have problems there.

Greetings AO

Re: Inverted Normals nowhere to be found in Dragon Necklace. [message #3959 is a reply to message #3958 ] Sun, 19 April 2009 11:20 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar AO  is currently offline AO
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Murderslastcrow,

And another pdf.

Greetings AO

Have You Tried Other Upload Formats? [message #3960 is a reply to message #3959 ] Sun, 19 April 2009 12:45 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar ziusuadra  is currently offline ziusuadra
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Hi! Although I'm not really part of this thread, I thought I'd mention that some types of .stl are unavoidably problematic with certain models. I had a great deal of trouble with one particular model using .stl, even though I verified it as being non-manifold and having valid edge thicknesses (it was made in Blender, so I used the internal tools of the most recent release to check it). When I exported it as .X3D instead, it worked easily first time. So, my suggestion: try all the Shapeways compatible formats you have access to first, before going looking for the more complex issues. Read the upload formats guide page to learn more about this.
Re: Inverted Normals nowhere to be found in Dragon Necklace. [message #3961 is a reply to message #3954 ] Sun, 19 April 2009 15:31 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar lorddarthvik  is currently offline lorddarthvik
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As said above, try different export formats. What is shown in MeshLab is never to be taken seriously, it´s compatibility with all the formats is pretty limited, near to useless. For example it makes a mess of mostly everything I export from 3dsMax, still those models upload and print perfectly. If you can, try to export to DXF and convert to Collada in AccuTrans, that usualy does the trick for me, especially when shapeways sais there are inverted normals although there is none in the model.

Another way to test for where the inverted normals are, is to upload your model object by object to shapeways, this way you may be able to find the wrong part. It is a slow process, but effective most of the time. Still, this error may be caused by an export issue.
Re: Inverted Normals nowhere to be found in Dragon Necklace. [message #3962 is a reply to message #3961 ] Sun, 19 April 2009 15:39 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar Whystler  is currently offline Whystler
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*WAVES* at MurdersLastCrow!

Good to see you here Smile

-Whystler


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Re: Inverted Normals nowhere to be found in Dragon Necklace. [message #3963 is a reply to message #3959 ] Sun, 19 April 2009 18:30 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar AO  is currently offline AO
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Hi murderslastcrow,

I made some better screenprints of what I can see.
It might give you a clue where to go if you model it again.
Maybe whistler can take a look to and give some advice?

Greetings AO

Re: Inverted Normals nowhere to be found in Dragon Necklace. [message #3964 is a reply to message #3959 ] Sun, 19 April 2009 18:34 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar AO  is currently offline AO
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Murderslastcrow,

And the last pdf.

Greetings AO

Re: Inverted Normals nowhere to be found in Dragon Necklace. [message #3965 is a reply to message #3964 ] Sun, 19 April 2009 20:11 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar Whystler  is currently offline Whystler
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Alrighty then, I had a peek at your cool gothy necklace Smile

First of all , in Max, the piece appears too small for a necklace at 8-9 centimeters long. This might be big enough for a delicate bracelet in a perfect world. Unfortunately, at this size, the rings are pretty small to be printed with any confidence for the imperfect world in which we live Wink. At best, the wire size of the rings should be 2mm in diameter. At worst, they shouldn't be any smaller than 1mm in diameter. As it is, they are not quite .5 mm, which is very thin. This might be a scaling issue in the program, so I resized it up 200% so that the rings would be at least 1mm which for me, is still to small for these rings. This makes the necklace about 17 centimeters tall (6 3/4 inches).

So, secondly , I think the diameter of the rings should be bigger. At 1mm, they will be flexible in the SWF material, and in any other material they may break. Since a necklace has so many rings, it is inevitable that one or two rings may not make it in printing using the detail materials - perhaps more in shipping. On the safe side, I would aim for at least 1.5mm in diameter.

Also, the rings that are part of the wings that attach to other rings below, are a little odd, because I think they were sculpted as part of the wing. Because they are odd, I don't think they are structurally sound, and will easily break. Instead, I would resculpt the wing without the rings. Then I would embed a torus in the bottom to match the other rings of the necklace, as you have done at the top of the ring.

Next , I think you should use boolean functions to attach the horns and side rings to the head. I did this in max, followed by using the "cap holes" function to make the head watertight. This will stop you from having any manifold issues, because you won't have separate elements overlapping.

And finally , you might want to rethink your ring-design in terms of how the necklace lays on the body when gravity is introduced. At the moment, gravity will make the wings cross each other and jumble up behind the head. So I would recommend you take the rings off of the top wing tips, and place them somewhere around the horny bits on top of the wings.

Unfortunately, designing for 3d printing takes a bit more work because of the manifold issues. You will probably have to alter your approach to design compared to the good work I know you do in other platforms. Test out other 3d programs. Use different processes that aren't prone to making holes or manifold edges. This will take some time, but it's worth it.

If you were starting this necklack from scratch, I would tell you to sculpt the head and the wings in your program of choice, without the rings. Then do some tests to make sure they are watertight and manifold. When you have achieved this, I would then import them into max, or another program where you would make the short tubes, or tori that create the rings for the necklace.

Hope this helps!

-Whystler



[Updated on: Sun, 19 April 2009 20:15 UTC]


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Re: Inverted Normals nowhere to be found in Dragon Necklace. [message #3968 is a reply to message #3965 ] Mon, 20 April 2009 06:44 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar AO  is currently offline AO
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Hi Whistler,

Thanks for your advice. It also gives me insight.
I think alot forget to use the boolean and causing the overlaps. But I still wonder why the whole piece had inverted normals.

Thanks Again.
Greetings AO
Re: Inverted Normals nowhere to be found in Dragon Necklace. [message #3974 is a reply to message #3968 ] Mon, 20 April 2009 12:40 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar Whystler  is currently offline Whystler
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I have no idea about why it had inverted normals, but once I started tweaking in max, I did have to invert the normals of the head and horns.

-Whystler


Check out my website: http://tshawnjohnson.wordpress.com/
Re: Inverted Normals nowhere to be found in Dragon Necklace. [message #3978 is a reply to message #3954 ] Mon, 20 April 2009 19:17 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar murderslastcrow  is currently offline murderslastcrow
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Well, I did end up reading the 'problems' section of the site, and it cleared up the part of the holes and all that I was contemplating. I'm also going to fix the instable issues with the wing-rings you spoke of, and I recently became aware of some manifold issues with those rings pressing up against each other (one point shared by four faces on different objects is probably a manifold issue, as there is no way to imply the thickness of the point at which they meet.

So thanks for the help in clearing up the issues with this. Now I have a lot more understanding to work with when I submit my next models. I suspected a lot of this beforehand, but some of it was unexpected.

Thank you for all of your help and assistance, especially for Whystler's extensive detail. :3 Good to see you here, too. I'll come back to this post when I've got a model successfully uploaded. :3
Re: Inverted Normals nowhere to be found in Dragon Necklace. [message #3979 is a reply to message #3974 ] Mon, 20 April 2009 19:52 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar AO  is currently offline AO
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Hi whistler,

When I opened the file it was only inverted normals.
To clean them was easy. After i fixed athe 2 holes in ring at the top ( with the 2 spheres ) it had inverted normals in that area again.
Somehow its funny. But if you can't see those things its like pushing buttons in the dark and waiting for the result.
The darkroom of shapeways.........
Did you refer to magic mushrooms somewhere? If you come to holland we go and find them....


Greetings AO.
Re: Inverted Normals nowhere to be found in Dragon Necklace. [message #3980 is a reply to message #3979 ] Mon, 20 April 2009 21:53 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar murderslastcrow  is currently offline murderslastcrow
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Hm, well, I ended up patching up the ring with the balls , as well as connecting the vertices of the horns and rings connecting to the wings and head, respectively. No vertices left inside, just perfectly connected and seamless.

And still, the stl file claims to have inverted normals. (I remade the rings entirely since it seemed pointless to manually disconnect them and make them manifold since they're basic object, just redid them)

So, no inverted normals whatsoever and still, claims inverted when I submit the stl. So, I guess when I export it to stl, it just inverts them automatically regardless of what I do, so I'm going to try a different format.

P.S. Yeah, the scale was totally off, obviously. I have them in inches, not millimeters (same measurements, though).

So yeah, I'll get back to you guys after I export x3d from max, blender, or sumpin. That way we shouldn't get so many weetodded issues.

But yeah, made it completely water tight and connected (all but the separated rings, obviously), just to keep that from being an issue.
Re: Inverted Normals nowhere to be found in Dragon Necklace. [message #3981 is a reply to message #3980 ] Mon, 20 April 2009 22:06 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar murderslastcrow  is currently offline murderslastcrow
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Well, I exported the fixed file from Max in .wrl format, but it still claims to have inverted normals. Shocked I'm quite befuddled with this assessment, since everything has been tended to as far as I can see. No inverted normals when I export it, whatsoever.

So I'm going to upload a .3ds of the fixed file and ask politely if anyone can see what could be causing this error. Thank you in advance for your attention, I hope I'm not being burdensome. ^^;

(still planning to fix the structural issue with the wing's bottom ring, but would like to see if it's going to work at all first)

[Updated on: Mon, 20 April 2009 22:07 UTC]

Re: Inverted Normals nowhere to be found in Dragon Necklace. [message #3982 is a reply to message #3981 ] Mon, 20 April 2009 23:14 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar Whystler  is currently offline Whystler
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hey MLC,

Here is what I was able to do for you ...

I could not fix the horns, and they were creating problems. So I deleted them.

I could not fix the chain. It was creating problems in certain links. So I deleted it.

I could not fix the rings that were attached directly to the head. So I deleted them.

I cut the ring parts off of the bottom of the wings.

I resized it into cm to be the equivalent of the size you need in inches.

So, what I have for you is a head (no horns), two wings, and the two large rings on either side of the head. It passes my checks and comes up watertight in Accutrans as per the Shapeways tutorial.

Here it is in obj form. Use primitives to resculpt the horns in max. Use the tori primitives to remake the missing rings. And you're in business! I hope someone else can do better for you, but if they can't at least you've got a start Smile

-Whystler

[Updated on: Mon, 20 April 2009 23:18 UTC]


Check out my website: http://tshawnjohnson.wordpress.com/
Re: Inverted Normals nowhere to be found in Dragon Necklace. [message #3983 is a reply to message #3954 ] Mon, 20 April 2009 23:47 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar lorddarthvik  is currently offline lorddarthvik
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Well, I´v checked your model too, and I have to say altough it looks good, underneath it it looks like that some operation, like using boolean in Max have made a mess of your otherwise great design. Did you try to attach those parts ,which Whystler had to delete, together with boolean? I also tried fixing them, but remodeling them will be much faster and net you a clean result.

I would just model the horns and all those parts separately, then move them into each other just a bit, so that they print as one piece. There is realy no need to attach them together as a continous one piece model. Especially not with boolean type modifers if your using Max Smile Intersecting objects are allowed and print alright, so feel free to model everything as separate objects.

I realy hope you get to print this model, I just love everything with dragons in them Smile

[Updated on: Mon, 20 April 2009 23:48 UTC]

Re: Inverted Normals nowhere to be found in Dragon Necklace. [message #3984 is a reply to message #3954 ] Tue, 21 April 2009 00:39 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar murderslastcrow  is currently offline murderslastcrow
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Oh really?? Interecting polygons are perfectly acceptable as long as their points aren't merged? Aha, that makes things easier.

Still kinda' confused as to why this approach wouldn't work comparitively. But I'll try again (maybe tomorrow). @,@ It'd be nifty if there were a plugin to adapt models to the needed thickness/alghorithms/smoothness or whatever. I mean, it would take forever to code, but still pretty cool. XD Maybe in the coming years.
Re: Inverted Normals nowhere to be found in Dragon Necklace. [message #4005 is a reply to message #3954 ] Wed, 22 April 2009 21:51 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar murderslastcrow  is currently offline murderslastcrow
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Well, I tried again and simplified the model, but still wouldn't go through. So I'm just going to see if I can find this Accutrans thing and run the tests myself, then try to change the original model. If that won't work... I dunno'. Kinda' feeling like there are some illogical restrictions that shouldn't be there at this point.
Re: Inverted Normals nowhere to be found in Dragon Necklace. [message #4011 is a reply to message #3954 ] Wed, 22 April 2009 23:09 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar murderslastcrow  is currently offline murderslastcrow
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Odd. Okay, so I've been modelling in Cinema 4D which supports something called N Gons. Basically a polygon calculated with more than 4 points, a sort of emulation of triangles. So, there's a function to automatically triangulate all polygons, as well as remove N Gons. So I remove N Gons first, which create some polygons/triangles where needed, then triangulated the mesh (no four-sided polygons left, only triangles).

So I download AccuTrans and check for watertightness and it claims that there are holes in the mesh, due to some edges sharing 3 or more polygons. According to my investigation, this is impossible. XD Like, it's just bald-faced lying to me about my model.

Any idea how to fix this? Sorry if I'm getting too burdensome. I'm just thoroughly confused.
Re: Inverted Normals nowhere to be found in Dragon Necklace. [message #4012 is a reply to message #4011 ] Wed, 22 April 2009 23:48 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar Whystler  is currently offline Whystler
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Hey MLC,

Could you post that example that you tried?

Accutrans is good. It has always been 100% effective for me. Maybe something happened in the conversion between filetypes?

-Whystler


Check out my website: http://tshawnjohnson.wordpress.com/
Re: Inverted Normals nowhere to be found in Dragon Necklace. [message #4014 is a reply to message #4012 ] Thu, 23 April 2009 06:09 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar murderslastcrow  is currently offline murderslastcrow
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3ds directly exported from Cinema4D that resulted in the watertight check 'holes' error.

Re: Inverted Normals nowhere to be found in Dragon Necklace. [message #4019 is a reply to message #4014 ] Thu, 23 April 2009 12:32 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar Whystler  is currently offline Whystler
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Hey MLC,

Yup, definately holes. I didn't even have to put them in accutrans to find out.

I'll tell you how I found out ...

In max, you can actually calculate the volume of your piece by look at the left hand window. At the top of this window, there is a tab with a hammer on it. Click it. Then you will get a number of options in that side window. One of them is measure. Click it.

This sometimes takes a few seconds to generate. But look in this window now, and you will see that it tells you the surface area, volume, centre of mass, dimensions etc.

Look at the volume. If there is a * (star) after the number that tells you the volume, then you know there are holes. What max is telling you is that it can only guess at the volume because there is an opening somewher ein your model.

-Whystler


Check out my website: http://tshawnjohnson.wordpress.com/
Re: Inverted Normals nowhere to be found in Dragon Necklace. [message #4022 is a reply to message #3954 ] Thu, 23 April 2009 17:40 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar murderslastcrow  is currently offline murderslastcrow
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So ODD. Must be something happening between file conversion, because I ignored reversed faces, and inspected the entire mesh without any incident, holes, etc. I'll see if I can do up the holes that are represented in max, then export it from there since Cinema 4D's exporter must have issues with these programs.

On one hand, it's nice to know what the problem is. On the other hand, it's too bad there's little indication as to how or why it's happened.
Re: Inverted Normals nowhere to be found in Dragon Necklace. [message #4032 is a reply to message #4022 ] Fri, 24 April 2009 06:19 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar AO  is currently offline AO
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Murderslastcrow,

If you download stl I can take a look to if needed.
I can't open a ds file.

greetings AO
Re: Inverted Normals nowhere to be found in Dragon Necklace. [message #4295 is a reply to message #4032 ] Thu, 07 May 2009 09:43 UTC Go to previous message
avatar RalphVdB  is currently offline RalphVdB
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Hi murderslastcrow and all other community members who tried to help murderslastcrow Cool


I took a look at your model:Dragon Necklace. First of all: what a great model!

The reason why you've got the error message about the inverted normals is: because it simply has a lot of inverted normals and bad edges. See screenshot modelbefore

So, i went on a quest to get the model fixed for you
Nod

We, at Shapeways, use Magics to check the models. After using the fix wizard your model became printable Smile See screenshot modelafter

I tested it, and uploaded it. It works fine!
Have fun with it and..... go order it ! Nod

Cheers,

Ralph


Shapeways International Customer Service Manager

 
   
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