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Small items attached to a bearer [message #35795] Mon, 03 October 2011 17:48 UTC Go to next message
avatar woody64  is currently offline woody64
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This was originally part of an answer in another thread but maybe it's worth discussing:

Small items suffer from pricing by handling costs.
Shapeways suffers from handling of small items per default since it's more difficult for most of the production lines.

Currently I solve this problem by attaching 10 items of the same type to a carrier.
So the price is now = handling fee + 10 * volume price
Which is a significant difference for small items.

For the creation of such a collection I have a blender script which can attach small items to a carrier. So at least it's technical doable for specific items.

Unfortunately many users want to buy one or two of this and one or two of another item.

A procedure which can make this automatically in the background would be great.

For example items which have a specific flag will then be attached by shapeways to a carrier per default.
This can be done with no buyer interaction (only with a remark on the order that marked items are attached to a carrier).

Worth discussing?

Woody64

Picture of the blender script:
http://www.shapeways.com/forum/index.php?t=getfile&id=97 62&private=0

http://www.shapeways.com/forum/index.php?t=msg&&th=5 627&goto=30103#msg_30103

[Updated on: Mon, 03 October 2011 17:54 UTC]


More then 7500 items sold over SW (but still a hobby)
Minifigcustomsin3d at: Facebook Flickr
References: 3d Printing Industries, CNN, J. Burks, Ugly Duckling, M.Evans, Stop Motion Film,Computer BILD
More then 270 shop items (more then 146 already printed once)
Re: Small items attached to a bearer [message #35798 is a reply to message #35795 ] Mon, 03 October 2011 18:11 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar LincolnK  is currently offline LincolnK
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That would be very cool if SW could offer something like that.

Lincoln


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Re: Small items attached to a bearer [message #35808 is a reply to message #35798 ] Mon, 03 October 2011 19:45 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar BillBedford  is currently offline BillBedford
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You mean something like this?


index.php?t=getfile&id=11261&private=0




Bill Bedford
Re: Small items attached to a bearer [message #35816 is a reply to message #35808 ] Mon, 03 October 2011 22:06 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar ana  is currently offline ana
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Hey Bill, so that's something you created yourself, right? How'd it work out for you?

Just another quick question to everyone in this thread: it seems that the term "bearers" is being used the same way as we've all talked about "sprues". Am i right in thinking these are the same?

Just want to help us out by minimizing confusion. Very Happy


Community Manager | Shapeways

Re: Small items attached to a bearer [message #35818 is a reply to message #35816 ] Mon, 03 October 2011 22:29 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar woody64  is currently offline woody64
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Yes I've ment sprues.

You can see the sprues as I use them in this model:
http://www.shapeways.com/model/71130/10_x_gas_mask.html?gid= ug
(sometimes it would be so helpfull to use the rendered picture directly in a text/forum ... , but I've found no possibility so far)

I've discussed that with Pete when the handling fee for WSF was introduced.
From our discussion I got:
- many (n) small items in one file are not helpful, because it generates n x effort
- adding n items to a sprue is from producing point of view one bigger item.

I hope that's still true.
Fortunately for me, I have already all items in 10 x packages available. So the handling fee is now covered for all materials with these packs.
(Often customers asked why 10x WD packs are not cheaper then ordering 10 times the single item. Now it is)

Still open:
- how does the shipping fee effect sales

But for all of my sales it would be a big advantage if it would be possible to arrange several items on a sprue. That must not be visible for the customer. It would save me a lot of work, because I don't have to add the 10x packs.

At least my blender script would already work with the uploaded stl file when one single item is ordered n times.
It would generate a sprue with n same items hanging on it.

Woody64

[Updated on: Mon, 03 October 2011 22:31 UTC]


More then 7500 items sold over SW (but still a hobby)
Minifigcustomsin3d at: Facebook Flickr
References: 3d Printing Industries, CNN, J. Burks, Ugly Duckling, M.Evans, Stop Motion Film,Computer BILD
More then 270 shop items (more then 146 already printed once)
Re: Small items attached to a bearer [message #35823 is a reply to message #35816 ] Mon, 03 October 2011 23:38 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar BillBedford  is currently offline BillBedford
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Ana
ana wrote on Mon, 03 October 2011 22:06

Hey Bill, so that's something you created yourself, right? How'd it work out for you?
Yep, it worked out fine. Part of the reason for doing this was to provide some protection while the pieces are being delivered.
Quote:


Just another quick question to everyone in this thread: it seems that the term "bearers" is being used the same way as we've all talked about "sprues". Am i right in thinking these are the same?

That's the way people seem to be using 'bearers'. The trucks are not attached to the framework so maybe 'caged' would be better.


Bill Bedford
Re: Small items attached to a bearer [message #35824 is a reply to message #35818 ] Mon, 03 October 2011 23:52 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar BillBedford  is currently offline BillBedford
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woody64 wrote on Mon, 03 October 2011 22:29


You can see the sprues as I use them in this model:
http://www.shapeways.com/model/71130/10_x_gas_mask.html?gid= ug

I've tried using sprues similar to yours, but have decided against them for most applications. They have a tendency to break and leave a stub that has to be cleaned off. Better to use a cage, as above, or if your pieces have a hole in them, like yours, simply thread them on loop of material.



[Updated on: Mon, 03 October 2011 23:54 UTC]


Bill Bedford
Re: Small items attached to a bearer [message #35952 is a reply to message #35824 ] Wed, 05 October 2011 16:30 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar woody64  is currently offline woody64
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I'm using spures since the introduction of the handling fee for WSF.
(I think more then a year now)
So far I haven't had any problem.

The biggest disadvantage was the creation of the items.

But with the blender plugin I've written that's a one minute task.

Does anybody know of a python based 3d system which can :
- load/save stls
- manipulate 3d objects in a simple ways
- create simple meshes

blender does support a subset of it, but my current version is not able to:
- load/save of stl files via commandline scripting
- is not able to be used on a web server

A very simple workflow for such a topic may be:
- simple web interface which allows to sepcify the number and type of items which should be attached to a sprue/bearer
- python program which does the creation
- ftp upload to shapeways
- and positioning the requester in shapeways shopping card

For my items that could mean:
- average volume price $1.7
- markup $0.5
- handling fee $2
- shipping fee Europa $9.5

A 20 items sprue then results in $2,75 per item.

Woody64

[Updated on: Wed, 05 October 2011 16:30 UTC]


More then 7500 items sold over SW (but still a hobby)
Minifigcustomsin3d at: Facebook Flickr
References: 3d Printing Industries, CNN, J. Burks, Ugly Duckling, M.Evans, Stop Motion Film,Computer BILD
More then 270 shop items (more then 146 already printed once)
Re: Small items attached to a bearer [message #35965 is a reply to message #35795 ] Wed, 05 October 2011 17:46 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar aeron203  is currently offline aeron203
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Woody, perhaps you should speak to McTrivia about that. I think he was working on something very much like that, though he is probably a little busy helping with the debugging of the interface and API.

If you have the script already, saving and uploading shouldn't be that big of a deal. If you really can't be bothered to do it manually, you could use a macro recorder to drive Blender and/or your browser. I believe Dizingof uses one called AutoHotKey to... do those things that he does.

Just so we're clear on terminology, let's say that both "sprues" and "cages" are types of "bearers". Even though the usage of sprue is not technically accurate, it is common parlance in the model building world, so let's run with it.

You may have noticed I just posted some tutorials on building sprued arrays, and the whole series is less than 15 minutes. Without the explanation it can be done in a few minutes so I am not in favor of Shapeways investing development time to save a few minutes or dollars for only a handful of users, when they could be doing things that help everyone. We have to pay those developers salaries anyway, so that would be going in circles. We experienced members are technically capable and not lazy, so I'm sure we can figure it out ourselves. Let's share as many examples of sprues and grouping as possible to give some inspiration for those who haven't tried it yet. Below is a "kit" I used to get around the minimum model sizing to test 3D printed hinge clearances.

http://img844.imageshack.us/img844/6536/dsc01225hingekit1.jpg

[Updated on: Wed, 05 October 2011 17:47 UTC]


Aaron - 40westdesigns.com/blog
Re: Small items attached to a bearer [message #35977 is a reply to message #35965 ] Wed, 05 October 2011 19:44 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar mo-design  is currently offline mo-design
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Hi,

the point is not the creating of bearers for our one designers. As you say, this can be done at home for most experienced users.

The interesting part, is creating bearers on the fly while ordering multiple parts, also from different shops. So this must be done on the shapeway server.

King regards
Michael
Re: Small items attached to a bearer [message #36214 is a reply to message #35795 ] Sat, 08 October 2011 17:34 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar woody64  is currently offline woody64
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I've tried to figure out one possibility, but that's a lot of handwork which is a nightmare with the current interface:

http://www.shapeways.com/model/edit/352810/

Interface Problems:
- loading the page needs a minimum bandwidth and can be very slow
- where the hell are the private links gone, I don't want to flood my shop with 2x and 5x items
- where's the button to deselect all materials at once gone
- why is the grouping of materials (all WSF and clones grouped together) not done
- why is it not possible to add a markup to all materials
- already discussed the cropping of text which leads to not visibility of links
- new pricing affects the results in a massive way - sure that will be visible in shop results

Woody64

[Updated on: Sat, 08 October 2011 18:08 UTC]


More then 7500 items sold over SW (but still a hobby)
Minifigcustomsin3d at: Facebook Flickr
References: 3d Printing Industries, CNN, J. Burks, Ugly Duckling, M.Evans, Stop Motion Film,Computer BILD
More then 270 shop items (more then 146 already printed once)
Re: Small items attached to a bearer [message #36215 is a reply to message #35965 ] Sat, 08 October 2011 17:54 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar mctrivia  is currently offline mctrivia
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aeron203 wrote on Wed, 05 October 2011 17:46

Woody, perhaps you should speak to McTrivia about that. I think he was working on something very much like that, though he is probably a little busy helping with the debugging of the interface and API.


Yes I have writen a system that can take and combine STL files on my server on the fly.
Pro: customers can select what they want and build group packs in real time
Cons: I only support STL files at the moment. Have not yet writen in cages and pures but that would not be hard to do. Busy with school and other stuff though until Nov 10th


Follow me on twitter http://twitter.com/mctrivia or my blog at http://4ddice.blogspot.com/
Re: Small items attached to a bearer [message #36216 is a reply to message #36215 ] Sat, 08 October 2011 18:11 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar woody64  is currently offline woody64
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Can you please share the link?

Did you add sprues or only combine them?

What language did you use (php)?

Woody64

[Updated on: Sat, 08 October 2011 18:21 UTC]


More then 7500 items sold over SW (but still a hobby)
Minifigcustomsin3d at: Facebook Flickr
References: 3d Printing Industries, CNN, J. Burks, Ugly Duckling, M.Evans, Stop Motion Film,Computer BILD
More then 270 shop items (more then 146 already printed once)
Re: Small items attached to a bearer [message #36219 is a reply to message #36216 ] Sat, 08 October 2011 18:54 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar mctrivia  is currently offline mctrivia
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no link as it is not up at the moment. Was for a while.

I wrote it in PHP.

I was trying to figure out how I could make some money on this(or at least get back my costs). I have decided though I will release this as an open source project and if someone wants to write a nicer UI I will even host it on my server farm for a low monthly charge(with your own domain)

Give me a bit of time to add spurs, and cages to the script and clean the code up a bit.


Follow me on twitter http://twitter.com/mctrivia or my blog at http://4ddice.blogspot.com/
Re: Small items attached to a bearer [message #36225 is a reply to message #36219 ] Sat, 08 October 2011 23:55 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar baltimore  is currently offline baltimore
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That's awesome to think that you've automated it. Peter said it was cool if we do this as long as we're smart about nesting and packing. If we take up too large of a bounding box, then shapeways loses money.


www.Custom3dStuff.com
Re: Small items attached to a bearer [message #36256 is a reply to message #36225 ] Sun, 09 October 2011 16:08 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar woody64  is currently offline woody64
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I made a very rough test of concept:

- The form asks for generation of 6 items type budenovka and 8 russian helmets
- it calls a php generator doing the assembling
- the resulting stl is currently stored on my server. I've downloaded it and checked it in blender
(here the ftp api should do it's job in the future)
- to be perfect the uploaded file has to be added ti the shopping card

1. (to be fair the generator works on some prework and some basic assumptions how this prework can be connected together - very simple but efficent)
2. currently I don't work with my full smoothed objects since the mass of data is to high. But the process is the same (currently I store as stl-ascii - and that's to heavy in size)

but based on this adding further items is a very small task for me (5 minutes each)

index.php?t=getfile&id=11356&private=0

  • Attachment: Test.png
    (Size: 178.01KB, Downloaded 778 time(s))

[Updated on: Sun, 09 October 2011 16:15 UTC]


More then 7500 items sold over SW (but still a hobby)
Minifigcustomsin3d at: Facebook Flickr
References: 3d Printing Industries, CNN, J. Burks, Ugly Duckling, M.Evans, Stop Motion Film,Computer BILD
More then 270 shop items (more then 146 already printed once)
Re: Small items attached to a bearer [message #36259 is a reply to message #36256 ] Sun, 09 October 2011 17:20 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar woody64  is currently offline woody64
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And it also works with smoothed items now (much more more points) and binary stl.

Next step would be the ftp upload.
Woody64

index.php?t=getfile&id=11357&private=0

[Updated on: Thu, 13 October 2011 11:27 UTC]


More then 7500 items sold over SW (but still a hobby)
Minifigcustomsin3d at: Facebook Flickr
References: 3d Printing Industries, CNN, J. Burks, Ugly Duckling, M.Evans, Stop Motion Film,Computer BILD
More then 270 shop items (more then 146 already printed once)
Re: Small items attached to a bearer [message #36260 is a reply to message #35795 ] Sun, 09 October 2011 18:06 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar woody64  is currently offline woody64
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It's up and buy able!!!!
Markup is generated automatically, by the number of items.

After some minutes it's visible in the shop and also buyable.

(There's a red x icon in the overview page. I haven't figured out the meaning so far ...)

http://www.shapeways.com/model/353464/stlgen_b2r2_s_stl_rand omid_1268654428.html?gid=ug


More then 7500 items sold over SW (but still a hobby)
Minifigcustomsin3d at: Facebook Flickr
References: 3d Printing Industries, CNN, J. Burks, Ugly Duckling, M.Evans, Stop Motion Film,Computer BILD
More then 270 shop items (more then 146 already printed once)
Re: Small items attached to a bearer [message #36261 is a reply to message #36260 ] Sun, 09 October 2011 18:44 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar pfeiffer stylez  is currently offline pfeiffer stylez
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woody64 wrote on Sun, 09 October 2011 18:06


(There's a red x icon in the overview page. I haven't figured out the meaning so far ...)

Usually, a little red X icon is the replacement for a missing or inaccessible graphic.
Re: Small items attached to a bearer [message #36262 is a reply to message #36261 ] Sun, 09 October 2011 18:58 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar woody64  is currently offline woody64
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I know what you mean, but it's an explicit shapeways icon. And I haven't seen it so far.
index.php?t=getfile&id=11359&private=0


More then 7500 items sold over SW (but still a hobby)
Minifigcustomsin3d at: Facebook Flickr
References: 3d Printing Industries, CNN, J. Burks, Ugly Duckling, M.Evans, Stop Motion Film,Computer BILD
More then 270 shop items (more then 146 already printed once)
Re: Small items attached to a bearer [message #36263 is a reply to message #36262 ] Sun, 09 October 2011 19:01 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar baltimore  is currently offline baltimore
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The x means you uploaded via the api, and haven't yet clicked the OK to accept the terms and conditions. With the new layout, that OK button is missing. I emailed service@shapeways.com last week and haven't heard back... I'll follow up.


www.Custom3dStuff.com
Re: Small items attached to a bearer [message #36273 is a reply to message #36263 ] Sun, 09 October 2011 21:18 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar woody64  is currently offline woody64
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Ah, that's it.
I was wondering where these items are.
Woody64


More then 7500 items sold over SW (but still a hobby)
Minifigcustomsin3d at: Facebook Flickr
References: 3d Printing Industries, CNN, J. Burks, Ugly Duckling, M.Evans, Stop Motion Film,Computer BILD
More then 270 shop items (more then 146 already printed once)
Re: Small items attached to a bearer [message #36278 is a reply to message #36273 ] Sun, 09 October 2011 21:41 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar mctrivia  is currently offline mctrivia
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I asked for them to make mine auto accepted and they did. Looks good.


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Re: Small items attached to a bearer [message #36283 is a reply to message #35795 ] Sun, 09 October 2011 21:54 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar aeron203  is currently offline aeron203
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Nice job Woody!

Is this something other people can use?


Aaron - 40westdesigns.com/blog
Re: Small items attached to a bearer [message #36286 is a reply to message #36283 ] Sun, 09 October 2011 22:56 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar woody64  is currently offline woody64
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I think the idea can be reused, since grouping of several items can be done in different ways.
Each shop owner has his product type and can define a grouping which makes sense.

In my case:
- a bearer in the middle
- two items attached in y direction as base
- I've stored the complete stl code for such a group as base on the server
- now I can make any combination of such groups connecting these in x direction

the php code does:
- reading binary stls
- immedeatly store the stl but adapt the points by a transformation vector
- getting the number of items which should be connected by a html form
- loop over the base forms, define the transformation vector, and manipulating the stl input as described above

the code is a skeleton, which can be adapted to fit to other groupings

but let's see how that works and what mctrivia is designing.
Maybe we have some results usable bythe comunity later on.,

woody64


More then 7500 items sold over SW (but still a hobby)
Minifigcustomsin3d at: Facebook Flickr
References: 3d Printing Industries, CNN, J. Burks, Ugly Duckling, M.Evans, Stop Motion Film,Computer BILD
More then 270 shop items (more then 146 already printed once)
Re: Small items attached to a bearer [message #36298 is a reply to message #36286 ] Mon, 10 October 2011 04:48 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar mctrivia  is currently offline mctrivia
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Ok this is my first sourceforge project so bare with me a bit as I learn.

https://sourceforge.net/projects/php3dmodeler/

so far I have only included the model object and the stl loader. If anyone wants to read through the stl loader and make one for other file formats great. The model object is programed to look for model_???.php and use that to load what ever file format you give it.

As for usage this object is really easy:


//load a model
$m1=new Model('model1.stl');

//load a second model
$m2=new Model('model2.stl');

//correct for model 2 being in inches
$m2->scale(25.4);  //if only 1 field put in applies to all access

//make model 1 twice as big on y and zaccess
$m1->scale(1,2,2); //if 3 fields enter applied to x,y,z

//move model 2 over by 10mm on each access
$m2->translate(10,10,10);

//rotate model 1 around y access by 45 deg
$m1->rotate(deg2rad(45),'y');

//add model2 to model 1
$m1->add($m2);

//close model 2
unset($m2);

//get bonding box of model 1
$bondingbox=$m1.bondingbox; //returns in format array(x min,y min,z min,x max,y max,z max)

//save model 1 to binary stl
$m1->save('new.stl');



This code is ment to be run from within a demon since you will quickly kill your server if you don't. I plan to rewrite the combine program and was hoping someone could make a better algorithm.

Currently I am using bonding box of the largest model and placing on a grid 1mm greater then this. TO what I can see there are 2 ideal layout mechanism.

For small items where spers are exceptable layout in 2 rows and put spers between(what woody was doing). For larger models where spers are not exceptable(think dice), aranging in as tightly packed a box as possible and build a cage around them.

The first 1 is pretty easy but the second one can be pretty dificult. So my chalenge can anyone using my object) compute the layout that has a bonding box with as small a surface area as possible and compute the largest diameter circle that none of the parts can sqeeze through. You can not place parts within each other in such a way that would be dificiult or impossible to remove them. Also 1mm clearance must be maintained between models.

I personally like the cage idea since it requires no cleaning from the model just break open and go, and if we can pack them in as tight as possible then cage material would be pretty small and hopefully bulk discounts for density can be achieved.


Follow me on twitter http://twitter.com/mctrivia or my blog at http://4ddice.blogspot.com/
Re: Small items attached to a bearer [message #36344 is a reply to message #36263 ] Mon, 10 October 2011 17:29 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar woody64  is currently offline woody64
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baltimore wrote on Sun, 09 October 2011 19:01

The x means you uploaded via the api, and haven't yet clicked the OK to accept the terms and conditions. With the new layout, that OK button is missing. I emailed service@shapeways.com last week and haven't heard back... I'll follow up.


This means that my items are currently not visible for the public Sad

[Updated on: Mon, 10 October 2011 17:30 UTC]


More then 7500 items sold over SW (but still a hobby)
Minifigcustomsin3d at: Facebook Flickr
References: 3d Printing Industries, CNN, J. Burks, Ugly Duckling, M.Evans, Stop Motion Film,Computer BILD
More then 270 shop items (more then 146 already printed once)
Re: Small items attached to a bearer [message #36346 is a reply to message #36298 ] Mon, 10 October 2011 17:33 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
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mctrivia wrote on Mon, 10 October 2011 04:48

Ok this is my first sourceforge project so bare with me a bit as I learn.

https://sourceforge.net/projects/php3dmodeler/




Well done, that was exactly the code I have been looking for.

Unfortunately I saw after my first own tests yesterday that my php server doesn't allow a huge amount of points and fails. Therefore I've started to manipulate the points on the fly by immediately storing the points.

But I think I have an idea how to cope with that, also based on your code.

Woody64


More then 7500 items sold over SW (but still a hobby)
Minifigcustomsin3d at: Facebook Flickr
References: 3d Printing Industries, CNN, J. Burks, Ugly Duckling, M.Evans, Stop Motion Film,Computer BILD
More then 270 shop items (more then 146 already printed once)
Re: Small items attached to a bearer [message #36347 is a reply to message #36344 ] Mon, 10 October 2011 17:33 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar baltimore  is currently offline baltimore
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Yup. You can always check by copying the link, and then logging out, and pasting the link back in and seeing if you can see it.


www.Custom3dStuff.com
Re: Small items attached to a bearer [message #36354 is a reply to message #36346 ] Mon, 10 October 2011 18:16 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar mctrivia  is currently offline mctrivia
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woody64 wrote on Mon, 10 October 2011 17:33

mctrivia wrote on Mon, 10 October 2011 04:48

Ok this is my first sourceforge project so bare with me a bit as I learn.

https://sourceforge.net/projects/php3dmodeler/




Well done, that was exactly the code I have been looking for.

Unfortunately I saw after my first own tests yesterday that my php server doesn't allow a huge amount of points and fails. Therefore I've started to manipulate the points on the fly by immediately storing the points.

But I think I have an idea how to cope with that, also based on your code.

Woody64



Well my server farm is more then enough to host us all. For $5/month I can easily host the service. For security reasons I can not host active code per person but this is an open source project now and people can help make better and I can make the program as a hole available to all.

I can even host everyones domain names so we can have separate shops. For this I will need to write a nice templatable system but the systems are now in place that your customers can use your shop to do all there shopping then go to shapeways to pay.


Follow me on twitter http://twitter.com/mctrivia or my blog at http://4ddice.blogspot.com/
Re: Small items attached to a bearer [message #36369 is a reply to message #36354 ] Mon, 10 October 2011 21:28 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar ana  is currently offline ana
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Ok, few things...

First off, the spirit of the project is awesome. We love open source software, and the community collaborating on something that helps everyone is a wonderful thing.

After a couple of conversations with colleagues, I'm getting word that the approach with sprues (or bearers as some call them) is different for different materials -- just like with different design rules for different materials, what's good in one material won't necessarily be good in another.

At the moment, I just wanted to plant the expectation in everyone's minds that sprues can be a good thing, but it's going to depend on the material and the situation. I'm fishing around for some more facts and details so that you guys have info you can actually use. Hope to have more details asap!



Community Manager | Shapeways

Re: Small items attached to a bearer [message #36371 is a reply to message #36354 ] Mon, 10 October 2011 21:38 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar nancyliang  is currently offline nancyliang
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Hey guys,

First, I completely understand why you want to work with sprues. With the new handling costs, it makes sense to start bundling items. To that end, I'll shed a bit of light on the subject.

The thing with sprues is that it while it does make handling a lot easier, it also makes the build in the machine less efficiency. The difficult part is calculating the trade off, because different materials work differently. Some optimize based on density (the more densely packed, the better), some optimize based on height (the flatter the object, the better), and there are others (for spruing silver items, you have to take into consideration how silver flows in the mold). That's why there hasn't been a definitive "sprue this way" tutorial written.

BY AND LARGE, the more densely packed, the better. For FUD or FD, height also matters (flat objects--like a coin--are more cost effective to print than big & tall objects--like a big cube). For WSF, the density is the thing, not the height.

The last thing to be cautious about is the sprue's wire thickness. WSF is pretty forgiving, but FUD/FD are much weaker materials. For FUD, we did some strength tests, and we recommend that the sprues be at least 0.5mm thick in diameter, longer sprues should be 1mm in diameter.

In short, keep in mind:
(1) pack your model densely
(2) flatter models are better for FUD/FD
(3) thicken the wires as they support more weight

Hope that helps for now. It's hard to get TOO specific since there are a lot of factors in play for estimating cost of one sprue method vs. another. As we get more tests, we will share our learnings.

Thanks,
Nancy



Product Manager
Twitter: @nliang
Re: Small items attached to a bearer [message #36374 is a reply to message #36371 ] Mon, 10 October 2011 21:54 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar mctrivia  is currently offline mctrivia
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if you are willing to help in the project. i.e complete the api we could make the model differently for each material to best suit you. Give us info on how best to suit you and we will acomidate.

[Updated on: Mon, 10 October 2011 22:12 UTC]


Follow me on twitter http://twitter.com/mctrivia or my blog at http://4ddice.blogspot.com/
Re: Small items attached to a bearer [message #36436 is a reply to message #36374 ] Tue, 11 October 2011 19:34 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar nancyliang  is currently offline nancyliang
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Hey McTrivia, sounds really interesting! I'll PM you about it.



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Re: Small items attached to a bearer [message #36462 is a reply to message #36436 ] Wed, 12 October 2011 05:47 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar Magic  is currently offline Magic
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If we are to add sprues between parts or cages around parts, those would be made to help Shapeways to handle sets, but will be no use for the customer: at the contrary, he will have to make some efforts to remove them properly.
As a consequence, I am not comfortable with charging the customer with this additional volume of material.
Is it possible to have a way to discard the volume of sprues/cages from the price calculation?


So many things to design, so little time...
Re: Small items attached to a bearer [message #36463 is a reply to message #36462 ] Wed, 12 October 2011 05:49 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar baltimore  is currently offline baltimore
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I'm just using them to order for myself in bulk, and shipping them out myself. I doubt they'll let you 'cheat' the handling fee AND save on the material you're adding in to 'cheat' too.


www.Custom3dStuff.com
Re: Small items attached to a bearer [message #36464 is a reply to message #36463 ] Wed, 12 October 2011 05:56 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar Magic  is currently offline Magic
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Ah, yes I understand your point. My postulate is that puting parts together with sprues or cages will not "cheat" the handling fees but "reduce" the handling work. Smile
If this reduction is higher than the material and machine costs then it makes sense.
That's why I am asking...


So many things to design, so little time...
Re: Small items attached to a bearer [message #36467 is a reply to message #36464 ] Wed, 12 October 2011 06:34 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar woody64  is currently offline woody64
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In my case tha additional volume of sprues is far more compensated by the reduced handling fees.
Less then $1 for the sprues but savings of 9x $1.5 for handlig on a 10x piece.
The advantage is on all sides:
- shapeways: bigger parts, easier handling
- my side: average item costs are still within range (out of range with handling)
- buyer: costs in range

The only point is that the buyer currently has to use preprepared items. And that's the point we here want to solve.

Yes materials affect the packing. But that can maybe handled by such a procedure.

Currently my tests are stopped since:
- upload reports ok but no item appears in my shop
- commiting of items is not possible
@shapeways: can somebody take a look on that

woody64

[Updated on: Wed, 12 October 2011 06:34 UTC]


More then 7500 items sold over SW (but still a hobby)
Minifigcustomsin3d at: Facebook Flickr
References: 3d Printing Industries, CNN, J. Burks, Ugly Duckling, M.Evans, Stop Motion Film,Computer BILD
More then 270 shop items (more then 146 already printed once)
Re: Small items attached to a bearer [message #36574 is a reply to message #36467 ] Thu, 13 October 2011 11:14 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar woody64  is currently offline woody64
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I've done a last test and in principle the idea is working.

index.php?t=getfile&id=11408&private=0


More then 7500 items sold over SW (but still a hobby)
Minifigcustomsin3d at: Facebook Flickr
References: 3d Printing Industries, CNN, J. Burks, Ugly Duckling, M.Evans, Stop Motion Film,Computer BILD
More then 270 shop items (more then 146 already printed once)
Re: Small items attached to a bearer [message #36575 is a reply to message #36574 ] Thu, 13 October 2011 11:19 UTC Go to previous messageGo to previous message
avatar woody64  is currently offline woody64
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... results in this generated file.

index.php?t=getfile&id=11409&private=0

One line of configuration to add a new stl file to the generator script.
$model["bearskin"] = array(  name => "./bearskin-s.stl", xd => 16, yd => -3, zd => -3, sy => 17);

name of the passing parameter of the form
name of the stl file lying on the server
space needed for the item in x direction
movement of item in y and z
size of the sprue to attach to this item
(implicitly the code assumes to rotate the item 90 and -90 degrees)

And one block which has to be added to the html file for selection of numbers of items.
<select name="bearskin">
<option value="0"> 0</option>
<option value="1"> 1</option>
....
<option value="10"> 10</option>
</select>


The script itself now does:
- take an item
- move it in the correct position and rotate
- adding a sprue
....
- at the end adding a bearer cube to connect the sprues.

It's working on the standard stl files of a single piece.

Unfortunately there are some unsolved topics at the moment which I can't influence:
- upload API seems not to work at the moment
- uploading a bigger size is problematic and results in a failure
- shop flooding may take place
- download of original stl is currently restricted with the new interface
- waiting for availability needs a view on my side



Wink time effort: 2 days (but only since I had to learn php scripting)

[Updated on: Thu, 13 October 2011 12:13 UTC]


More then 7500 items sold over SW (but still a hobby)
Minifigcustomsin3d at: Facebook Flickr
References: 3d Printing Industries, CNN, J. Burks, Ugly Duckling, M.Evans, Stop Motion Film,Computer BILD
More then 270 shop items (more then 146 already printed once)

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