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Re: Final Negotiations on FD/FUD [message #30927 is a reply to message #29642 ] Fri, 15 July 2011 17:59 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar LeftySpinhand  is currently offline LeftySpinhand
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YES YES YES YES!!!

Shapeways makes miracles happen, people... Stop and marvel!

Even if they only offered SWF they GAVE YOU A BUSINESS!!!

Revel that YOU were here during the First Wave, and if you cant do that, then visit

www.I.Materialize.com

and then report back with your tail appropriately tucked between your legs!


Thanks for listening,
-Lefty
www.shapeways.com/shops/lefty
Re: Final Negotiations on FD/FUD [message #30929 is a reply to message #30927 ] Fri, 15 July 2011 18:05 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar cyborg_ar  is currently offline cyborg_ar
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LeftySpinhand wrote on Fri, 15 July 2011 17:59

YES YES YES YES!!!

Shapeways makes miracles happen, people... Stop and marvel!

Even if they only offered SWF they GAVE YOU A BUSINESS!!!

Revel that YOU were here during the First Wave, and if you cant do that, then visit

www.I.Materialize.com

and then report back with your tail appropriately tucked between your legs!


What the...
Re: Final Negotiations on FD/FUD [message #30930 is a reply to message #30929 ] Fri, 15 July 2011 18:36 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar ana  is currently offline ana
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Hey CGD, that's an interesting idea. I'll talk it over with some people and see if it might be within reach.

LeftySpinhand I'm not sure I follow.


Community Manager | Shapeways

Re: Final Negotiations on FD/FUD [message #30933 is a reply to message #30930 ] Fri, 15 July 2011 18:55 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar stop4stuff  is currently offline stop4stuff
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Ana, I think that's the LeftSpinHand recommendation for Shapeways over the iMaterialise business model.

Re: Final Negotiations on FD/FUD [message #30935 is a reply to message #30930 ] Fri, 15 July 2011 19:04 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar LeftySpinhand  is currently offline LeftySpinhand
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sorry for the obliqueness. My response was actually based on phildlight's even more oblique posting of Louis C.K.'s Conan visit.

It really brings to light that my co-users are quite unappreciative of what ShapeWays has done.

In my explorations of the web and the development of 3d printing, I came across a company that I can only describe as "similar" to SW, but BY NO MEANS IS IT A COMPETITOR.

I was shocked to see how vastly different the two are when it came to Materials selection and pricing. HANDS DOWN, SW is the better operation.

SW gives us not only wide material selection and production level pricing (important to you space gamers and train freaks)

They also bother to come on to the forums and ask for clarification. To me, that's a deal maker, in and of itself!

My point is that we shouldn't complain about the changes SW has to make to maintain this new material... WE SHOULD:
Be grateful that they even tried it!
Be grateful that they asked for and listened to OUR input.
Be grateful that they bothered to tell us that they were sorry when there were parts of this new thing that might dissapoint.
Be grateful that they made the 3d-printing opportunity available to US in the first place.

Louis C.K. and Philipdlight were spot on, and I just wanted to expand on that thought.

thanks for listening

Lefty


Thanks for listening,
-Lefty
www.shapeways.com/shops/lefty
Re: Final Negotiations on FD/FUD [message #30936 is a reply to message #30935 ] Fri, 15 July 2011 19:09 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar phildlight  is currently offline phildlight
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I was beginning to think that nobody bothered to watch that link or understand the reference. Glad you "got it".



Philip Light
Re: Final Negotiations on FD/FUD [message #30937 is a reply to message #30935 ] Fri, 15 July 2011 19:10 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar ana  is currently offline ana
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hey Lefty, I understand if not everyone in the community shares your view. At the end of the day, it's the community's passion that pushes us to improve.

Still, thank you. The kind words are appreciated.


Community Manager | Shapeways

Re: Final Negotiations on FD/FUD [message #30938 is a reply to message #30937 ] Fri, 15 July 2011 19:15 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar LeftySpinhand  is currently offline LeftySpinhand
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oh, I understand and appreciate all the opinions expressed here...
(even the wrong ones, lol)
I just sometimes feel the need to shine the light of perspective, a critical element of what we do, and yet quite the rare commodity.

thanks again for listening.

Lefty

www.shapeways.com/shops/lefty

[Updated on: Fri, 15 July 2011 19:15 UTC]


Thanks for listening,
-Lefty
www.shapeways.com/shops/lefty
Re: Final Negotiations on FD/FUD [message #30942 is a reply to message #30938 ] Fri, 15 July 2011 20:07 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar dymihail  is currently offline dymihail
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Lefty, just stop.
Re: Final Negotiations on FD/FUD [message #30949 is a reply to message #30942 ] Sat, 16 July 2011 01:08 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar dynath  is currently offline dynath
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You know I feel like I shouldn't respond but I think you have things a bit backwards Lefty. As designers we spend thousands of man hours crafting designs for sale on Shapeways. As buyers we spend a lot of hard earned cash on the products we and others design. Without us Shapeways has a limited market base to sell product which is exactly why imaterialize is so expensive. We build their market base and we keep it affordable. They don't just GIVE us a shop, they make money off the designs we make just like we do. We are business partners and as a responsible business partner it is our responsibility to call attention to the positives and negatives of the decisions made by Shapeways. If we don't express our issues with the cost of FD/FUD then Shapeways won't have the evidence to understand their market base. I don't like the cost of FD/FUD, it limits my design potential and puts a portion of this growing market base out of reach. Expressing that isn't insulting to Shapeways it's being a responsible customer and business partner and it's the only way we can hope to insure the longevity of the business. After all just because imaterialize isn't affordable now doesn't mean they won't catch on sooner or later.


Check Out my blog dynath.blogspot.com
Re: Final Negotiations on FD/FUD [message #30952 is a reply to message #30949 ] Sat, 16 July 2011 01:49 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar LeftySpinhand  is currently offline LeftySpinhand
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Dymihail-
Gee, did I ruin your top-notch negotiation technique of "WAAAHHH"? Well I'd apologize but instead I'll thank you for your comprehensive argument... and ask you to please look up the following two words, "Forum" and "Negotiation" and then I'll take your suggestion under advisement.

Dynath-
I totally understand BOTH sides of this "negotiation", and as a ShopKeep, I am just as affected as you by these things. By the same token as your (genuinely) poignant post, I am entitled to express my SATISFACTION with My business partner, so that they may take MY opinions into account, as well, am I not?

Whoo, doggies... I got heat from both ends of that one... How'd I end up the bad guy, here?

ALL-
Sorry to disagree with my co-shoppies,

ANA- Way to support your supporters!


Thanks for listening,
-Lefty
www.shapeways.com/shops/lefty
Re: Final Negotiations on FD/FUD [message #30953 is a reply to message #30952 ] Sat, 16 July 2011 01:51 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar dymihail  is currently offline dymihail
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Really, bro? Really? The rest of us can and will state our opinions, based on fact, research, etc. But you're welcome to come out and make attacks. This is why I ignore trolls.

[Updated on: Sat, 16 July 2011 01:53 UTC]

Re: Final Negotiations on FD/FUD [message #30954 is a reply to message #30952 ] Sat, 16 July 2011 01:59 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar phildlight  is currently offline phildlight
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Being that this is a discussion and there is a lack of support in one direction, I want to add the following.

Constructive criticism is one thing, but most of the posts in this thread come across as whining. I think if you've got a problem with the situation you should offer your opinion on how to correct it or state the changes that would change your mind. Some people have done that while others haven't.

More importantly, I don't understand what people expected. I guess if the new materials were the same cost as the older lower resolution materials then everyone would be happy? What sense does that make? What if shapeways offered a stepless resolution in pure gold? Should that be the same cost as WSF too?

You've got options to offer your customers. If your customers don't want to pay for higher quality pieces then offer them a cheaper solution. Don't expect higher quality to cost the same as lower quality.

Everyone wants everything as cheap as possible and as a result, a lot of consumer products are absolute junk. This isn't the last time that a new high res material will come online. If you want the latest and greatest, be prepared to pay a little more for it.



Philip Light
Re: Final Negotiations on FD/FUD [message #30958 is a reply to message #30954 ] Sat, 16 July 2011 02:23 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar CGD  is currently offline CGD
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phildlight wrote on Sat, 16 July 2011 01:59



More importantly, I don't understand what people expected. I guess if the new materials were the same cost as the older lower resolution materials then everyone would be happy? What sense does that make? What if shapeways offered a stepless resolution in pure gold? Should that be the same cost as WSF too?




If you read the posts carefully, or you actually sell items that were printed in FUD, you would see that most of us did not oppose to the cost of FUD. (It was lowered actually) We are actually objected to the $5 start up surcharge, or tried to find better ways to find a win-win solution.

And also if you read the "whining" posts again, a lot of it pointed out the defects of the FUD material. If we as customers do not point out these shortcomings, at the end the usage of FUD will decrease. I for one, have been reducing the usage of FUD to bare necessity. And Shapeways is the only one who can provide a solution to the defects of the material. (I am sure they are working hard to accomplish that.)

After all, what use is the trial period if we participating in it did not voice our comments.
Re: Final Negotiations on FD/FUD [message #30960 is a reply to message #30958 ] Sat, 16 July 2011 03:28 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar dynath  is currently offline dynath
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I understand both sides of the negotiation, but we aren't participating in this negotiation. We are commenting on it after the negotiation is complete. Our satisfaction or dissatisfaction here doesn't result in a different decision being made in the past, but it does give Shapeways the understanding that a lower cost high resolution material would be of interest. Clearly there is a portion of the community which has a demand for a high resolution product which is more affordable for small parts without the necessity to purchase in bulk to mitigate the startup cost. It's not simply an issue of cheaper is always better, it's an issue that the pricing doesn't meet the needs of the entire market as it inordinately effects designers who make small items to sell in limited quantity. This is exactly what its intended to do since these smaller pieces are the ones that require special handling. I am not of the opinion that the newest high resolution materials should be the same cost as those that have gone before, however I am of the opinion that there is still a market demand that has yet to be addressed.
Lefty, I didn't intend to attack you for your opinion my intent was to address what I felt was an attack against all those whose opinion disagreed with Shapeway's final opinion. I don't think that you, me, or anyone else here intended to deride those with a differing opinion but that's how it felt reading your comment. If I misunderstood that I'm sorry. I disagree with Shapeways decision, but that doesn't make me a whiner and more over just because someone else does something similar at a higher cost doesn't negate my argument. iMaterialize isn't targeting the market that disagrees with this decision. Their scale based pricing and volume discounts says they are targeting a particular brand of designer which will buy in bulk making standard sized items, rather than those who buy individually making small items, which is the market that is upset with the decision. I enjoy making items and sharing them through Shapeways. This decision isn't going to make me stop using Shapeways and I don't think it is going to make anyone else stop either. What it will do is keep me from designing for FD/FUD because as others have said, those of us making small detail items understand the price point of our market and this price is not it. I'll stay with the Detail range and WSFP for now. Shapeways is always improving and are rapidly becoming experts in the materials they use. Hopefully in future they'll find a material which will meet the needs of the fine detail market at the pricing point that will be more amicable.


Check Out my blog dynath.blogspot.com
Re: Final Negotiations on FD/FUD [message #30964 is a reply to message #30960 ] Sat, 16 July 2011 04:28 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar LeftySpinhand  is currently offline LeftySpinhand
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Attack? A plea to count your blessings before making statements about how damaging any particular decision is to the business that they did in fact GIVE you... (I point again to I.Materialize with ZERO INVENTORY CONTROL for designers) ...is by no means an attack.

(How about a 5.00 finishing fee instead and we get saleable pieces? How about that?)

*Edited, because Sixth is right

[Updated on: Sat, 16 July 2011 04:44 UTC]


Thanks for listening,
-Lefty
www.shapeways.com/shops/lefty
Re: Final Negotiations on FD/FUD [message #30966 is a reply to message #30964 ] Sat, 16 July 2011 04:38 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar SIXTHSCALE  is currently offline SIXTHSCALE
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LeftySpinhand wrote on Sat, 16 July 2011 04:28

Attack? A plea to count your blessings before making statements about how damaging any particular decision is to the business that they did in fact GIVE you... (I point again to I.Materialize with ZERO INVENTORY CONTROL for designers) ...is by no means an attack.

"but we aren't participating in this negotiation. We are commenting on it after the negotiation is complete. Our satisfaction or dissatisfaction here doesn't result in a different decision being made in the past"

Um... Dont you see that that makes all this even WORSE?

ShapeWays got the point about final product quality with each successful print, and each failed print and with all the Email rigamarole that goes along with it. Reiterating it here only bogs down the pipeline with regurgitated crap.

The Startup fee is incorporated into the price you pay, so it is all, in fact, COST, and your semantics disappoint me. The Startup fee is not a new, shocking surprise. It is a precedent well set in SW history, and yeah, I get that 5.00 is high, particularly when we have to take the time, effort and expense of cleaning the guk out of our work when we receive it.

(How about a 5.00 finishing fee instead and we get saleable pieces? How about that?)

But wailing about the invalidation of your whole catalog? How productive is that?

What part of "I Dont like this decision" is SW to address?

"It is now cheaper for me to make my pieces in steel"

Heh! yeah... couple of ways I could go there... so I'll just leave it to your imagination... So, anyway...

*thinks to himself*
maybe I should prolong this atrocity and repost my lucid arguments... No they missed the point... completely... maybe I should...

...SUBMIT



at this point you are just trolling.
Re: Final Negotiations on FD/FUD [message #30967 is a reply to message #30966 ] Sat, 16 July 2011 04:59 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar SIXTHSCALE  is currently offline SIXTHSCALE
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but since you addressed my comment about it being cheaper in steel directly....

i'm holding in my hand 4 steel prints.

miniature knife #1 : in steel $3.70 in FUD $6.29

miniature knife #2: In steel $4.10, in FUD $6.43

miniature knife #3: in steel $5.30 , in FUD $6.85

miniature knife #4 in steel $5.50, in FUD $6.92

Re: Final Negotiations on FD/FUD [message #30968 is a reply to message #30967 ] Sat, 16 July 2011 05:26 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar dynath  is currently offline dynath
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Lefty if you were attempting to plea with anyone I'm sorry but I missed the "plea" part of your statements. The point I got from your initial comments and what I am still getting is the perspective that commenting on things counter to Shapeway's final decisions is in fact detrimental to the operation of Shapeways. I don't see the reasoning for your argument, again just because another company with a similar yet different product does one thing doesn't mean shapeways is perfect for doing another. Likewise just because a group of people have stated a similar opinion doesn't mean I should not also state my opinion. I stated my opinion simply and directly, I don't like the decision. I did not suggest solutions because I have none and even if I did this is not the place to argue one solution over another as that debate should be had the next time a material is released that might meet the needs here. For now this discussion should be concerned about the lessons learned from this decision not recriminating those who agree or disagree with it. What can we learn from the decision? That shapeways can print in fine detail for a certain cost yes but also that there is a portion of the designers here that have issues with that cost. Comparing Shapeways to iMaterialize isn't going to make those designers feel better when they have a real issue regarding the sell ability of their products under the new pricing scheme. They have a grievance, they state it, collectively they generate a body of opinion that helps Shapeways make future decisions. I am not negotiating a decision that has already been made I am laying the foundation for all future decisions. If you feel that is counterproductive then I am sorry you feel that way.
And for the record I again take offense at a particular point in your arguments, Shapeways doesn't GIVE me a store. They barter it in exchange for the rights to 3d print my intellectual property. Again I'm sure I'm reading more into your statements than is intended and am sorry I do so but the wording doesn't convey your intent.


Check Out my blog dynath.blogspot.com
Re: Final Negotiations on FD/FUD [message #30970 is a reply to message #30968 ] Sat, 16 July 2011 06:03 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar LeftySpinhand  is currently offline LeftySpinhand
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At this point this is all academic, but I notice that no one's quoting me... Y'know... citing those offending statements and phrases... with one exception... which brings me to...

"shapeways gave you a business"
I am NOT blasting you.
This is an open FORUM discussion of a polite and civil nature.... just like ALL my posts...

So, I must ask...

What was your franchise cost? What was your Buy-in? Out of pocket investment?

No?

How much is the membership fee? Was it a one-time or is it monthly?

No?

What's the fee for storing your files for your inventory? Is it in MB or GB?

No?

How often does SW print your design for a customer other than yours or you? Can they? Do you get paid your markup when they do?
(ok, I honestly don't know the answers to that last set...)

Sorry, but I'm gonna treat ShapeWays with patience and respect... Y'know, like this is an opportunity that we did not have until They GAVE it to gave us.

Lefty


Thanks for listening,
-Lefty
www.shapeways.com/shops/lefty
Re: Final Negotiations on FD/FUD [message #30972 is a reply to message #30970 ] Sat, 16 July 2011 06:16 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar mctrivia  is currently offline mctrivia
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LeftySpinhand wrote on Sat, 16 July 2011 06:03


How often does SW print your design for a customer other than yours or you? Can they? Do you get paid your markup when they do?
(ok, I honestly don't know the answers to that last set...)

Sorry, but I'm gonna treat ShapeWays with patience and respect... Y'know, like this is an opportunity that we did not have until They GAVE it to gave us.

Lefty



Shapeways prints 5-15 of my dice a month at the moment. I ordered 7 last month but usualy I order 0. Who they print for? anyone that wants it(often Kevin Cook of dicecollector.com )

Yes we pay no service fees. But that is the beauty of shapeways model. It costs them nothing to host our shops, costs them nothing to store are files. The only thing that costs them money is there staff, shipping and printing costs which they only print after an order so they always get there money for those things(unless they screw up a model but that is a risk in all businesses.)

I do not begrudge shapeways any setup fee they deem necessary if it means my model will come back wax free(hasn't happened yet) but they should try to implement a auto spir system to cut down costs to all. I am game to rewrite my code to fit there system for $0.10 a model. You save $4 to $4.90 per extra model ordered which would fix most peoples complaints I think while keeping shapeways costs down.

I think the real problem with FUD is the material is not stable yet. I have a few models on order which I hope to electroform in Gold but I would not want it the way it comes direct from shapeways.

Shapeways SOS
http://qrh.me/*SSOS


Follow me on twitter http://twitter.com/mctrivia or my blog at http://4ddice.blogspot.com/
Re: Final Negotiations on FD/FUD [message #30978 is a reply to message #30960 ] Sat, 16 July 2011 09:34 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar BillBedford  is currently offline BillBedford
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dynath wrote on Sat, 16 July 2011 03:28

What it will do is keep me from designing for FD/FUD because as others have said, those of us making small detail items understand the price point of our market and this price is not it. I'll stay with the Detail range and WSFP for now. Shapeways is always improving and are rapidly becoming experts in the materials they use. Hopefully in future they'll find a material which will meet the needs of the fine detail market at the pricing point that will be more amicable.


Sorry but this is just wishful thinking. Whatever the advances in RP machines there is always going to be a problem with producing small objects. The sheer physical difficulty of cleaning, sorting and packing a box full of miniature pieces is always going to either attract a premium price, as in the case of FUD, or by setting minimum size requirements, e.g. detail. SW have given us a 2 month trial to show us what their machines are capable of, and now it is up to us to be innovative with our marketing to maximise our profits.

The way I see it is that while SW has a $25 minimum order I want to make my minimum price such that the customer spend all their $25 with me and not be tempted to go off and buy things from rival producers. This means that I have to make multi item packages that will sell for a minimum of $12-15. I'm trialling some of these at the moment :
pallets
Luggage Barrows


Bill Bedford
Re: Final Negotiations on FD/FUD [message #30979 is a reply to message #30958 ] Sat, 16 July 2011 10:46 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar phildlight  is currently offline phildlight
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CGD wrote on Sat, 16 July 2011 02:23

phildlight wrote on Sat, 16 July 2011 01:59



More importantly, I don't understand what people expected. I guess if the new materials were the same cost as the older lower resolution materials then everyone would be happy? What sense does that make? What if shapeways offered a stepless resolution in pure gold? Should that be the same cost as WSF too?




If you read the posts carefully, or you actually sell items that were printed in FUD, you would see that most of us did not oppose to the cost of FUD. (It was lowered actually) We are actually objected to the $5 start up surcharge, or tried to find better ways to find a win-win solution.

And also if you read the "whining" posts again, a lot of it pointed out the defects of the FUD material. If we as customers do not point out these shortcomings, at the end the usage of FUD will decrease. I for one, have been reducing the usage of FUD to bare necessity. And Shapeways is the only one who can provide a solution to the defects of the material. (I am sure they are working hard to accomplish that.)

After all, what use is the trial period if we participating in it did not voice our comments.


The $5 start up charge ultimately alters the bottom line price of the material, and most of the posts in this thread are voicing opposition to that pricing model. Regardless of how the pricing is structured, it makes the material cost more than the older ones. I actually would prefer a higher volume cost with no startup fee. I'm used to paying a LOT more for SLA though so my opinion may be bias.

I'm not arguing that people shouldn't post their opinions or suggestions for improvement. Quite the opposite really. Rather I'm trying to impress the importance of voicing intelligently written and constructive comments that are actually usable by shapeways to form a basis for modeling a revision in pricing structure. A lot of people in this thread have done that. Some have not.

Since shapeways actually reads the threads posted here, we have a unique opportunity to have an intelligent and positive discussion to help inform revisions to policy. My posts have only voiced my opposition to the seemingly "whiny" nature of some of the posts. For that I apologize. I myself will do a better job at suggestions in the future.

A few of the posts leading up to the video I posted. Almost half of the posts on that first page before I posted the video were not constructive. As mentioned earlier, I think people had setup profit margins based on the trial price and expectations that it would remain there or be cheaper. You have to alter your pricing based on the raw cost.:

http://www.shapeways.com/forum/index.php?t=msg&&th=5 627&goto=29610#msg_29610

http://www.shapeways.com/forum/index.php?t=msg&&th=5 627&goto=29570#msg_29570

http://www.shapeways.com/forum/index.php?t=msg&&th=5 627&goto=29623#msg_29623

http://www.shapeways.com/forum/index.php?t=msg&&th=5 627&goto=29630#msg_29630

http://www.shapeways.com/forum/index.php?t=msg&&th=5 627&goto=29633#msg_29633

http://www.shapeways.com/forum/index.php?t=msg&&th=5 627&goto=29570#msg_29570

http://www.shapeways.com/forum/index.php?t=msg&&th=5 627&goto=29635#msg_29635

http://www.shapeways.com/forum/index.php?t=msg&&th=5 627&goto=29570#msg_29570



Philip Light
Re: Final Negotiations on FD/FUD [message #31006 is a reply to message #30970 ] Sun, 17 July 2011 06:41 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar dynath  is currently offline dynath
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I wasn't under the impression I had to quote everything, Lefty. As I've already said, your initial post is what made me take offense. It's statement to the effect that Shapeways just GAVE me something at no cost of time, effort, and yes money offended me and that implication still does. I've already stated I was sorry if I miss read your intent as antagonism. To me your commentary on costs charged me by Shapeways is moot. As I said it's a barter, in bartering money doesn't change hands. They get the right to print my 3d projects on demand for me or anyone else, in exchange I get the resources to have my 3d concepts printed in the first place. Shapeways' makes a profit off of those 3d designs even before any markup fee is paid to me. They profit and I profit. In nature that would be symbiosis, but in business that's called a partnership and it's not just given away. If I don't design something someone wants or my designs are too expensive to sell then neither of us makes a profit and ultimately the business fails.

I agree mctrivia it would reduce costs and make both camps happy. At least for the time being, I'm sure something else would make someone upset but that's the way of the world.

BillBedford, I don't think its wishful thinking that materials will advance and that prices will be changed in the future. While I disagree with this pricing decision Shapeways has shown both a desire and drive to innovate so I'm sure they'll address this market area eventually. I'm patient, it's more practical for me to design for the more cost effective materials whenever possible and wait for something else come along than for me to adopt a design method for something I won't be able to sell.

I'm not sure I interpret as much of this discussion as whining as you do, phildlight. Yes those who disliked the decision commented that the new pricing didn't meet their expectations. While it doesn't suggest a solution outright it does call to attention the fact that an issue exists. Which ultimately is why we keep commenting here isn't it? Personally I think it's reasonable to say you disagree with the decision without sighting obsessive detail regarding how to perfectly solve it. If this thread had nothing but 1 or 2 people commenting it would be easy to say this was an isolated band of people but the more people who say something the more seriously Shapeways will take it. That's not counterproductive whining at that point.


Check Out my blog dynath.blogspot.com
Re: Final Negotiations on FD/FUD [message #31013 is a reply to message #31006 ] Sun, 17 July 2011 08:46 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar BillBedford  is currently offline BillBedford
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dynath wrote on Sun, 17 July 2011 06:41

BillBedford, I don't think its wishful thinking that materials will advance and that prices will be changed in the future.
There you go again. It really doesn't matter how good machines get, if the likes of Shapeways have to produce lots of small, similarly shaped object and they only have the Mk1 standard human eyeball to distinguish them, then they are going to charge a premium to cover the extra cost of dealing with masses of small objects.
Quote:


I'm not sure I interpret as much of this discussion as whining as you do, phildlight. Yes those who disliked the decision commented that the new pricing didn't meet their expectations.


Of course it's whining. Partly because Shapeways have form for this sort of thing. They had to put on a set up charge for WSF to deal with small objects, and for Detail they upped the minimum wall after about a year, so suddenly a whole load of models became unprintable.
But mainly this is whining because if people are foolish enough the build their price structure on a Two Month Trial Period Introductory Offer, then they only have themselves to blame when reality kicks in and prices inevitably find their stable level.


[Updated on: Sun, 17 July 2011 08:46 UTC]


Bill Bedford
icon14.gif  Re: Final Negotiations on FD/FUD [message #31020 is a reply to message #31013 ] Sun, 17 July 2011 15:23 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar LeftySpinhand  is currently offline LeftySpinhand
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BillBedford- Here, Here!!


Thanks for listening,
-Lefty
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Re: Final Negotiations on FD/FUD [message #31048 is a reply to message #31020 ] Mon, 18 July 2011 04:30 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
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@Lefty while I personally appreciate the encouraging tone, I think some people feel like what's happened is being rubbed in their faces. Thank you for the moral support while the team grapples with things, but let's make sure everyone feels welcome sharing.

There are a lot of angles to this situation, and I'm glad we're hashing them all out. Sure, initial reactions from some people were harsh, because they were surprised. It wasn't the most fun day at the office, but it was important. I'm hoping now we can move primarily into a constructive conversation.

One of the things I think we (the Shapeways team) learned from this was that we might have needed to be more clear about the temporary (2 month) trial. Sure, we said it. But maybe we needed to underscore the fact that everything with this material was subject to change. Each and every material we introduce involves unknown unknowns, and we use the trial periods to uncover those unknowns. Perhaps we should loop the community in on the ups and downs a bit more as well.

When it comes to material prices, some of you have speculated earlier in the thread that you believed we thought we'd be able to jack up the cost and because of the demand for FUD, everyone would just take it. While that's mostly been laid to rest, I can tell you from firsthand experience, that's not why the startup cost was implemented. It was exclusively because it became absolutely clear that we needed to do it in order to continue covering our basic business costs, to make it possible to continue offering FUD in the first place. Shapeways is not a company that's oriented around charging the maximum possible price, and the people putting the final decision into place weren't happy that we needed to go in this direction.

@BillBedford and @dynath, you guys are both right. On the one hand, when someone creates 3D designs the size of rice grains (and they did), and we rely on the human eye to identify and pack it, the human cost skyrockets. However, material developments in 3D printing are happening fast, many of which are being spearheaded by Shapeways, and it's a reasonable speculation that prices may not stay this high forever. Sure, they're not changing tomorrow, but at Shapeways, we know we don't want the FUD situation to remain this way indefinitely.

What a ride. Further thoughts?


[Updated on: Mon, 18 July 2011 05:37 UTC]


Community Manager | Shapeways

Re: Final Negotiations on FD/FUD [message #31051 is a reply to message #31048 ] Mon, 18 July 2011 05:22 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar dynath  is currently offline dynath
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Thank you Ana, I'm glad shapeways continues to listen even when the community is in disagreement.


Check Out my blog dynath.blogspot.com
Re: Final Negotiations on FD/FUD [message #31067 is a reply to message #31051 ] Mon, 18 July 2011 09:43 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
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One angle I haven't heard discussed is with regard to startup fee on larger models. I think it's clear that the $5 fee is there to help offset the time required to deal with tiny parts. Does this mean that there is less time required on larger parts? If so, it would be nice if the $5 fee was assessed based on the print volume of the part in question.

I don't know how possible it would be to implement, but more of a sliding scale for assessing a startup fee would be beneficial to some. Something where a grain of rice would incur a $5 fee, a pea sized print would have a $3 fee, a peanut sized print would be a $1 fee and anything above wouldn't incur an extra fee.

I know the people who want to print grains of rice for $0.20 each in separate files wouldn't be happy but that's unrealistic. It would help with cost on already more expensive larger parts though. Most of the discussion has been about parts that used to cost $1.89 now costing $6.89 (not a real example) but what about parts that cost $13 and now cost $18? If those larger parts aren't the reason for the $5 fee, then why charge it for them?



Philip Light
Re: Final Negotiations on FD/FUD [message #31069 is a reply to message #29570 ] Mon, 18 July 2011 10:04 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar Bunrattypark  is currently offline Bunrattypark
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For me, as I mentioned earlier, the other issue is the wax residue. While I might buy one of my own models, and deal with the cleaning of wax residue myself, that model is unsaleable to my general customers unless it comes wax free.

Therefore, the price charged, even if it includes the startup fee, is unrealistic, if the model has not been properly cleaned, i.e. a half finished model.

I can strengthen up my models to withstand vigorous cleaning, but I am not sure it is worth my valuable time, if those models continue to be delivered to my customers covered in wax. So for me, FUD is presently not reliable enough except for personal use, with or without the startup fee.
Re: Final Negotiations on FD/FUD [message #31070 is a reply to message #31067 ] Mon, 18 July 2011 10:17 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
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phildlight wrote on Mon, 18 July 2011 09:43


I know the people who want to print grains of rice for $0.20 each in separate files wouldn't be happy but that's unrealistic. It would help with cost on already more expensive larger parts though. Most of the discussion has been about parts that used to cost $1.89 now costing $6.89 (not a real example) but what about parts that cost $13 and now cost $18? If those larger parts aren't the reason for the $5 fee, then why charge it for them?

But pieces that used to cost $13 don't cost $18. They now cost $15.27 in FUD and 15.83 in FD. This is because the per/cc price has been reduced. Pieces that used to cost over $24 in FUD or $29 in FD are now actually cheaper than they were.

[Updated on: Mon, 18 July 2011 10:17 UTC]


Bill Bedford
Re: Final Negotiations on FD/FUD [message #31071 is a reply to message #30927 ] Mon, 18 July 2011 11:05 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar phildlight  is currently offline phildlight
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Bill, im talking about post trial pricing. Currently if a part would cost $13 it costs $18 with the startup fee. Trial pricing is irrelevant at this point.



Philip Light
Re: Final Negotiations on FD/FUD [message #31072 is a reply to message #31071 ] Mon, 18 July 2011 11:24 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
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Phil,

Did you consider that maybe Shapeways $5 startup fee for FUD is an average fee set for all models regardless of size or number of components?

It could be that in reality a 1cc model with 3 seperate parts should be $10 and a 3cc 1 piece model should be $3 etc.

Or it could be, Shapeways know how many models at a total volume will fit into one print run, it is the overall handling and clean-up time for the whole print run that's being accounted for, not just individual models.

Any which way, I don't think anyone here could find a comparable price for the same material.

Paul
Re: Final Negotiations on FD/FUD [message #31078 is a reply to message #31072 ] Mon, 18 July 2011 12:50 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
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stop4stuff wrote on Mon, 18 July 2011 11:24

Any which way, I don't think anyone here could find a comparable price for the same material.


I've have been charged £40 per 2.5mm in the z + VAT, that's about $70, for a build that is 127 x 178mm. If you can get more than 15 pieces in to a 127 x 178 x 2.5 mm volume then this is going to be cheaper than Shapeways. However they won't do drop shipping and charge carriage.


Bill Bedford
Re: Final Negotiations on FD/FUD [message #31081 is a reply to message #31072 ] Mon, 18 July 2011 13:03 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar phildlight  is currently offline phildlight
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stop4stuff wrote on Mon, 18 July 2011 11:24

Phil,

Did you consider that maybe Shapeways $5 startup fee for FUD is an average fee set for all models regardless of size or number of components?

It could be that in reality a 1cc model with 3 seperate parts should be $10 and a 3cc 1 piece model should be $3 etc.

Or it could be, Shapeways know how many models at a total volume will fit into one print run, it is the overall handling and clean-up time for the whole print run that's being accounted for, not just individual models.

Any which way, I don't think anyone here could find a comparable price for the same material.

Paul


You're exactly right, the $5 fee is per file regardless of volume or number of parts. That's exactly what I'm arguing against. Could we get a more granular approach to pricing so that the fees are more appropriate where they need to be?

What isn't clear is whether the $5 fee is to cover cleaning cost per order, or is it the collective assessment of the fee to cover the generally higher overhead for the material? If it's the later then the argument for granular additional fees is moot.

[Updated on: Mon, 18 July 2011 13:06 UTC]



Philip Light
Re: Final Negotiations on FD/FUD [message #31092 is a reply to message #31078 ] Mon, 18 July 2011 15:00 UTC Go to previous message
avatar stop4stuff  is currently offline stop4stuff
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BillBedford wrote on Mon, 18 July 2011 12:50

stop4stuff wrote on Mon, 18 July 2011 11:24

Any which way, I don't think anyone here could find a comparable price for the same material.


I've have been charged £40 per 2.5mm in the z + VAT, that's about $70, for a build that is 127 x 178mm. If you can get more than 15 pieces in to a 127 x 178 x 2.5 mm volume then this is going to be cheaper than Shapeways. However they won't do drop shipping and charge carriage.


Interesting... please could you send me a PM with the details.

Cheers,
Paul

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