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Shapeways Shops 8th of January 2009 [message #2269] Fri, 19 December 2008 11:39 UTC Go to next message
avatar joris  is currently offline joris
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On the 8th of January we launched the Shapeways Shops.

This will be a way for designers to make money by selling 3D printed models of their designs together with Shapeways.

Shapeways does the customer service, production and shipping.

The designer can concentrate on designing.

We'd like to know how to make the shops sucessful and also would like to capture any feedback you have.

So Shapeways Shops: a good idea? What would make it work?

[Updated on: Mon, 12 January 2009 13:44 UTC]

Re: Shapeways Shops 8th of January 2009 [message #2272 is a reply to message #2269 ] Fri, 19 December 2008 13:23 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar madox  is currently offline madox
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Its a great idea! Have you guys looked at Ponoko and what they've done there?
Re: Shapeways Shops 8th of January 2009 [message #2278 is a reply to message #2269 ] Fri, 19 December 2008 18:39 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar daddymack  is currently offline daddymack
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Hi Joris, this is an exciting development in the shapeways story. I like the idea so far, the only thing I have to suggest at this point is to provide the option of limited editions.

For me, a large part of what makes shapeways so appealing is the exclusivity of the items. I feel genuinely privileged when a print arrives and I think it's connected to the rarity of these items. The feeling that I hold in my hand something unique

If it worked like this: Artist makes a design and offers it for printing in a run of 50 only etc. Then I think the feeling of rarity will carry through to the store for end users. It will also create stronger demand for some items as users look forward to promoted release dates, hurry to buy the few on offer etc...

What do you guys think?
Re: Shapeways Shops 8th of January 2009 [message #2279 is a reply to message #2269 ] Fri, 19 December 2008 18:54 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar edwinM  is currently offline edwinM
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Hi there Shapies!

The new shop is finally there. That's exciting news!
I won't open one myself since I'm no good at modeling, but hope to that this will increase the quality (and amount) of the models even further.
Re: Shapeways Shops 8th of January 2009 [message #2286 is a reply to message #2269 ] Fri, 19 December 2008 23:43 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar madox  is currently offline madox
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Some more thoughts on the matter [Because I love Shapeways ;p]

1)Model bundling as a single product
Currently models are a single piece/model to be ordered, however a shop product may consist of multiple pieces to be fitted together. This might increase overhead for Shapeways packaging? [I still feel guilty about printing off those Iris blades for some reason].

2)Added value services?
Currently Shapeway's prints the 3D models. Perhaps adding painting in certain colours?

3)Stocking vs On-demand
Almost what Daddymack suggested, could an artist/designer possibly purchase10 models in advance for Shapeways to stock and sell? This is as opposed to having the models to be printed on demand when a shopper purchases it.

It could improve lead times, and address the 'limited edition' feature but could be horrible logistics for shapeways Smile

4)An option to scale the models on ordering
I might like something small, but you like something big...allowing rescaling will open up a lot of opportunities. The example I have in mind if (i think) daddymack's pencil holders...maybe i can rescale them larger to use them as a vase.... Smile
An option should be allowed on the design for the purchaser to rescale the product (some designers might want to keep their design as per original size).

5)On a side note - Is there any interest in 3rd party generated 'creators'?

Hope this helps!
Re: Shapeways Shops 8th of January 2009 [message #2289 is a reply to message #2286 ] Sat, 20 December 2008 01:26 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar robert  is currently offline robert
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madox wrote on Fri, 19 December 2008 18:43

Some more thoughts on the matter [Because I love Shapeways ;p]

1)Model bundling as a single product
Currently models are a single piece/model to be ordered, however a shop product may consist of multiple pieces to be fitted together. This might increase overhead for Shapeways packaging? [I still feel guilty about printing off those Iris blades for some reason].


Don't worry. Production is build to cope with this efficiently.

Quote:


2)Added value services?
Currently Shapeway's prints the 3D models. Perhaps adding painting in certain colours?



Good question. We did a try out with Silver for the Ring Poems and currently evaluating the results.

Quote:


3)Stocking vs On-demand
Almost what Daddymack suggested, could an artist/designer possibly purchase10 models in advance for Shapeways to stock and sell? This is as opposed to having the models to be printed on demand when a shopper purchases it.

It could improve lead times, and address the 'limited edition' feature but could be horrible logistics for shapeways Smile



Yes it would scrape a few days of the lead time. Though we are a more on demand production type of company. There are other options to further reduce the lead time which we will pursue first.

Quote:


4)An option to scale the models on ordering
I might like something small, but you like something big...allowing rescaling will open up a lot of opportunities. The example I have in mind if (i think) daddymack's pencil holders...maybe i can rescale them larger to use them as a vase.... Smile
An option should be allowed on the design for the purchaser to rescale the product (some designers might want to keep their design as per original size).



Good idea!

Quote:


5)On a side note - Is there any interest in 3rd party generated 'creators'?



What did you have in mind?

Cheers!

Robert
Re: Shapeways Shops 8th of January 2009 [message #2290 is a reply to message #2278 ] Sat, 20 December 2008 01:30 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar robert  is currently offline robert
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daddymack wrote on Fri, 19 December 2008 13:39

Hi Joris, this is an exciting development in the shapeways story. I like the idea so far, the only thing I have to suggest at this point is to provide the option of limited editions.



Yes, this is indeed a good idea!

You could of course disable the product yourself when the exclusivity limit has been reached. Same thing, just a bit more work on the shop owner's part.

But if there is enough demand for it (already counted two votes for this feature) we will build it for you.

Best regards,

Robert
Re: Shapeways Shops 8th of January 2009 [message #2293 is a reply to message #2269 ] Sat, 20 December 2008 12:44 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar Hodge  is currently offline Hodge
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Hi Joris,

This a great innovation, and I will certainly submit designs for the shop.

>What would make it work?

Promotion, promotion, promotion !!!

eg: google adverts

as many links on websites as possible.

What else?

Spam ??
Re: Shapeways Shops 8th of January 2009 [message #2298 is a reply to message #2293 ] Sat, 20 December 2008 22:42 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar joris  is currently offline joris
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Yes, promotion will be crucial.

We will always be looking to promote Shapeways itself of course and anything we do on the Marketing front for Shapeways will bring in more people for the Shops.

And we're hoping to make somewhat of a splash when we launch. We hope also to in time tell stories of Shoppers of how their Shops have helped them earn money, develop their talents etc.

We're of course going to try out AdWords but I would think that being interesting enough to build up links would be more sustainable in the long run.

But how could we maintain that interest, excitement? Would it be to show off individual designers? or would that just annoy other Shapeways members?

It's also got to be a combination of us doing things and the Shoppers promoting their own stores as well though.

So what tools would people need to promote their Shops?


Re: Shapeways Shops 8th of January 2009 [message #2299 is a reply to message #2269 ] Sun, 21 December 2008 09:21 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar bvicarious  is currently offline bvicarious
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Take a look at etsy.com, 1000markets.com, ponoko.com and dawanda.com for good examples of user-driven promotion.

The general idea is: user-submitted favorites lists featured on the front page either random or on rotation, site-authored promos and articles about featured users, and prominent links to other community related things like forums.

AdWords are good, spread the word through social networks too - Twitter, Facebook, Flickr et c. all have ways of advertising. Link up with sites like instructables.com and cgsociety.org that have a large user base that's into this sort of stuff. Get an advertisement in MAKE Magazine.

Let users style their shop with banners, announcements, mark their own items as 'featured', and otherwise personalize their site.


If we're going to be managing shops, I think a few of the following features are needed. First, the ability to download the original file that we've uploaded, and also possibly make that file available to the public for download. For the shop owner, this is good for knowing what version of their file they have uploaded. For the buyer, perhaps they want to see the exact measurements of the model when pictures and 3d preview won't suffice. If the owner wants to protect their digital content they can do that as well.

Second, instead of each upload being a new entry in your gallery/shop, allow the shop owner to create a page for their product and upload the model to it, letting them re-upload new versions if necessary. That way they don't have to redo everything if they need to make a slight change.

And if you can't/won't allow the buyer to scale the object to their own liking (which could be risky if they scale it beyond what the designer had in mind when modeling it, and it fails to print), let the author upload several versions of the same model to its product page and give the buyer the option to choose. Beyond scaling, this could accommodate variations on the same design such a character in different poses, a tealight holder that has different sized receptacles, or whatever.

Finally some way for buyers to request custom designs, whether they want a tweak of an existing model or want to commission a completely new object.
Re: Shapeways Shops 8th of January 2009 [message #2301 is a reply to message #2269 ] Mon, 22 December 2008 06:07 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar bvicarious  is currently offline bvicarious
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I have a few more suggestions that would benefit everyone in general, but if I'm going to be actively adding content to my shop they would help streamline the process.

Any debug information that can be provided about the model would be very useful. If there are non-manifold faces, holes, or bad normals, can they be highlighted? If there are details that are too small to be printed in certain materials, it should be noted. If the walls are too thin, there should be a warning. Instead of a generic email saying no printer can print the object, some more details like the xyz coordinates of the problematic area would make it easier to track down the problem. Usually its easy to find out this stuff myself, fix it, then re-upload and make sure it works, and thats fine if I'm working on personal projects over the course of weeks or months, but it would definitely be helpful to have.

In addition to the LxWxH, it would be nice to know the volume of the object. I try to balance out wall thickness and support structures so the objects are cheap yet still sturdy. Yeah, many 3d programs can calculate the volume for you, but if its easy for shapeways to calculate, why not?

The last one is control over how the model is oriented during printing. For some models this doesn't matter much, for others it makes a huge difference.
Re: Shapeways Shops 8th of January 2009 [message #2303 is a reply to message #2299 ] Mon, 22 December 2008 10:27 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar joris  is currently offline joris
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Bryan,

the first part of your post basically details the next few months of my life, LOL.

Are you sure that you as a designer would be OK with people downloading your file? Then they might use it for themselves?

The product page idea is interesting, we'll look into that.

Scaling is definately something that we are interested in.

I've always though of a Shop as a gallery showing off several items, so within that paradigm I would see several different versions of one model in that Shop rather than on the product page.

If one has a lot of models your idea would seem to make more sense.

A custom designs/customize this! idea is something that we are working on.

But, would it make more sense to do this based on a Marketplace: as is the modeler needed forum page or to have this as an option tied to each individual model?

Re: Shapeways Shops 8th of January 2009 [message #2304 is a reply to message #2301 ] Mon, 22 December 2008 10:34 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar joris  is currently offline joris
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bvicarious wrote on Mon, 22 December 2008 01:07

I

Any debug information that can be provided about the model would be very useful. If there are non-manifold faces, holes, or bad normals, can they be highlighted? If there are details that are too small to be printed in certain materials, it should be noted. If the walls are too thin, there should be a warning. Instead of a generic email saying no printer can print the object, some more details like the xyz coordinates of the problematic area would make it easier to track down the problem. Usually its easy to find out this stuff myself, fix it, then re-upload and make sure it works, and thats fine if I'm working on personal projects over the course of weeks or months, but it would definitely be helpful to have.

In addition to the LxWxH, it would be nice to know the volume of the object. I try to balance out wall thickness and support structures so the objects are cheap yet still sturdy. Yeah, many 3d programs can calculate the volume for you, but if its easy for shapeways to calculate, why not?

The last one is control over how the model is oriented during printing. For some models this doesn't matter much, for others it makes a huge difference.


In reference to this post:

We are working on this.

Why would volume calculations be important to you as a designer or as a customer? The why not: it is an extra process and an extra bit of information we have to display making the screen "busier" and more complicated looking.

The orientation is something we are looking at also.

What I find interesting is the following: the current pricing model makes big thin objects interesting to make. But, is our pricing based on volume the right thing to do? If we priced on bounding box for example heavy models such as characters would be cheaper while the "balloon-like" models would be much more expensive. You guys just want to make things as cheap as they can be made. But if you could come up with a Shapeways pricing model for your designs, in the long run, what would be better for you: pricing by volume or pricing by bounding box?
Re: Shapeways Shops 8th of January 2009 [message #2312 is a reply to message #2269 ] Mon, 22 December 2008 21:17 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar bvicarious  is currently offline bvicarious
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Joris,

As a designer, I am completely fine with people downloading my meshes.

What I upload to shapeways is a) over-smoothed to the point where the original topology is hard to decipher (which is presumably what a designer might want to conceal - their modeling techniques, or maybe how sloppy it is for that matter Wink b) sufficiently hollowed out and sealed up that it would be very annoying to use for any other purpose other than rendering as is c) stripped of textures, lighting, and bones which I might not want to release freely.

Now, I suppose that someone could download the mesh, reupload it and print it out on their own to avoid my markup. I didn't think of that before. That's a shame, because I would like to be able to give away certain things without worrying about that.

Second, there are some objects that I want to be 'open-source'. See, I had an idea several years ago to start a little forum based around the idea of collaborative manufacturing. Basically, people would come together around an idea of an object that they want to exist, and create and refine it in an open environment. When enough people were aboard, we would pool the funds to have them produced on a large enough scale for it to be relatively inexpensive.

The specific project I was working on with this in mind was called LEDBricks. Basically, custom made Lego bricks (but larger) with LEDs embedded in them that would light up when they were stacked on a special board carrying current. Ultimately I didn't go through with my idea, but shapeways comes pretty damn close to realizing that vision. So, that is one example of something that I would let be freely distributed with the hopes of others improving upon it.

Of course, it would be up to the individual to decide if their data was up for grabs.


A shop can still be essentially a personal gallery showing off items for sale, but suppose I have a model of an army soldier with the following options: with helmet, without helmet, rocket launcher on shoulder, with backpack. All of them would be the same basic model, with a few different additions (forget for a moment that I could make those accessories detachable and list them separately). Would it be better to have a separate listing for each of those variations, or would it make more sense to have a single listing for the base character + accessories? I don't know the answer to this myself. I imagine it would take a considerable amount of work on the back-end of the site, though.

One example is that I have a spinner knob, one with a 1/4" hole and one with a 1/8" hole. From the gallery view, they look exactly the same because the hole is underneath. The only way to discern is from the text description.

For customized items, the way Etsy works is two-fold. They have a generalized custom requests page, which people post open invitations for designers to create something for them. The designer submits a bid, and the person can accept or reject that bid. Each designers shop also has a custom request button, which allows a customer to directly initiates a bid request from that designer. Mostly it is used to ask for customizations of their existing product line.

I see the two as being distinctly different: the forum as it is now is sort of a free market approach where people can find a designer most suited to create what they want, and if each shop had a request button it would allow people to seek those whose work they enjoy.


Good point about making the site design too busy. I retract that suggestion Smile

Actually, I know there is a way to do this in Maya. You have to convert the object to an active rigid body, which has its volume calculated for simulation purposes. But for the life of me, I can't remember the variable that returns its volume data. Once I find it though, I want to create a mel script that prints out the volume and price in the HUD right under the polycount; That'll keep me on my toes!


I think I mostly print out things that are small both in bounding-box and in volume. I really don't have, at this point, the need for things 49x39x20cm in size. When designing things to print, my priorities are: 1) choosing the 'right' size for what the object is 2) keeping cost down within the current parameters (volume=cost) 3) keeping the volume down, because I am still in the mode where I think shapeways is a blessing that I don't want to fuck up by being greedy.

Does the idea that bounding box = price come from the time it takes to print the larger pieces? I don't think charging for space/volume would change much for me personally.


Re: Shapeways Shops 8th of January 2009 [message #2315 is a reply to message #2269 ] Fri, 26 December 2008 12:45 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar yanying  is currently offline yanying
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Hello,

I have some thoughts about the shop service.

I was wondering if model sanding could be included as an optional add-on service.

I have an animator friend interested in printing his own toys through shapeways. I showed him some of the printed model images on the forum and he was taken aback at the grain/roughness of the final printed model.

"Non-makers" and the general consumer in the street are not aware of the operations behind a product to make it look "saleable". Their expectations are shaped by products they see in everyday life. (High quality finishings/ shiny smooth surfaces etc.) As an example comparision, even the cheapst injection molded toy model in a supermarket will look better than a model that that came straight out of a 3d printer.

If Shapeways wants to target the general retail public, the model finishing might be abit of a letdown, considering the (relatively) high price for a small model. (...Unless the grain texture was an intentional factor in the design. Some people would like it, I think. It's like wood grain in natural products.)

If I am not wrong, Shapeways is interested in handling the distribution and shipping. I personally am all for it. Who doesn't like to make money with minimal effort on their side? XD But if I am going to sell toys or jewellery, I think the rough finishing is a deterrent.

A sanding service might be helpful. (Of course, then the seller has no control over the quality of the sanding... and whether a sanding service is worth Shapeways' time and effort is debatable. It takes a fair bit of time and care to wet sand a model nice and smooth.)

On a side note, Ponoko has a workaround way, where Ponoko sellers have the option of having their laser cut materials sent to them first, and the sellers add their own embellishments/additional finishing, before they send the finished product to the buyer. (I certainly don't mind sanding down my models. Hey, I can even paint/spray colours or add those metal hooks/chains onto my jewellery model on it to give the buyer exactly what they see in my photos. XD) It's alot more work and money though.(Shipping costs and time delay on both sellers and buyers' side)

My two cents. =)

[Updated on: Fri, 26 December 2008 13:01 UTC]

Re: Shapeways Shops 8th of January 2009 [message #2316 is a reply to message #2312 ] Sat, 27 December 2008 11:06 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar joris  is currently offline joris
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bryan,

Thank you for the feedback on the pricing.

I love the idea of collaborative manufacturing and working together on designs. And we want to let people share their models and meshes.

But, to us protecting our designers and their designs is very important, so we will let people download and share via us only if we've made sure we can do everything we can to protect those designs.

About the accesories question: for us it would always be better to upload each item as a different file. Some printers could get confused about if things should be fused or separate items if everything was in one file. So for that operational reason we would suggest that it is better to list all items seperately on the website also.

Re: Shapeways Shops 8th of January 2009 [message #2317 is a reply to message #2315 ] Sat, 27 December 2008 11:16 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar joris  is currently offline joris
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yanying wrote on Fri, 26 December 2008 07:45

Hello,


I was wondering if model sanding could be included as an optional add-on service.

I have an animator friend interested in printing his own toys through shapeways. I showed him some of the printed model images on the forum and he was taken aback at the grain/roughness of the final printed model.

"Non-makers" and the general consumer in the street are not aware of the operations behind a product to make it look "saleable". Their expectations are shaped by products they see in everyday life. (High quality finishings/ shiny smooth surfaces etc.) As an example comparision, even the cheapst injection molded toy model in a supermarket will look better than a model that that came straight out of a 3d printer.

If Shapeways wants to target the general retail public, the model finishing might be abit of a letdown, considering the (relatively) high price for a small model. (...Unless the grain texture was an intentional factor in the design. Some people would like it, I think. It's like wood grain in natural products.)

If I am not wrong, Shapeways is interested in handling the distribution and shipping. I personally am all for it. Who doesn't like to make money with minimal effort on their side? XD But if I am going to sell toys or jewellery, I think the rough finishing is a deterrent.

A sanding service might be helpful. (Of course, then the seller has no control over the quality of the sanding... and whether a sanding service is worth Shapeways' time and effort is debatable. It takes a fair bit of time and care to wet sand a model nice and smooth.)

On a side note, Ponoko has a workaround way, where Ponoko sellers have the option of having their laser cut materials sent to them first, and the sellers add their own embellishments/additional finishing, before they send the finished product to the buyer. (I certainly don't mind sanding down my models. Hey, I can even paint/spray colours or add those metal hooks/chains onto my jewellery model on it to give the buyer exactly what they see in my photos. XD) It's alot more work and money though.(Shipping costs and time delay on both sellers and buyers' side)

My two cents. =)



Yanying,

Thank you for the sanding/finishing suggestion.

So smooth surfaces are expected so we have to deliver them also? Interesting thought. We are looking at finishing services at the moment and what we can offer to you guys. Sanding is one option but personally I believe that if you really want smoothness that a paint would be easier and nicer too.

You could right now use the ponoko model whereby we send your model to you first, you finish it and then you send it on. But, it seems so innefficient and wasteful. I would not like to see it used generally. Basic finishes, colors and materials Shapeways should have to be able to provide well. If you're thinking that we need new finishes so that your products become more marketable, then we should offer this.

On the other hand: if you are some rock star airbrush artist then it would make more sense to send it to you first, then have you paint it and send it to the end customer. But, personally I would like to see this as the exception rather than the rule.
Re: Shapeways Shops 8th of January 2009 [message #2319 is a reply to message #2269 ] Sat, 27 December 2008 23:50 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar bvicarious  is currently offline bvicarious
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I think a finishing service would be helpful in some regards, like metallizing certain materials or penetrating the models with a strengthening epoxy. For painting, polishing or sanding I'd be concerned that I wouldn't have control over the product as delivered. And since all of our creations are going to be wildly diverse so too will the challenges in finishing them. Unfinished models that the buyer paints themselves, I think, will be a hit with the diy crowd.

I think the ultimate solution is to get machines and materials that are smooth right out of the machine. I haven't seen any samples but I think he objet polyjet claims to do this. Right now shapeways has a good variety of materials for us to work with; my wishlist is for a flexible material, and a full color/full textured material.

One thing that's unavoidable is if the product requires non-printed parts. I have a trackball assembly that needs some steel pins and a 1" steel ball, and many products can work together with 3rd party products like the battery powered tealight. How can this be efficiently handled?
Re: Shapeways Shops 8th of January 2009 [message #2320 is a reply to message #2319 ] Sun, 28 December 2008 09:08 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar joris  is currently offline joris
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Bryan,

I agree with you completely on the first part.

There are some materials that come out of the machine smooth. But, they each have their limitations. White Detail, Black Detail and Transparent Detail are made on Objet Machines and they feel kind of smooth but do have some kind of definition in them.

What do you mean by a full textured material?

I'm not sure about the efficiency of requiring a lot of non-3d printed parts. It would be important I think to limit the number of parts used. So we have one standard steel ball for example that people can use. Or perhaps we wouldn't get involved with the marrying of preproduced and one off produced parts. As of yet I personally have no idea.
Re: Shapeways Shops 8th of January 2009 [message #2321 is a reply to message #2269 ] Sun, 28 December 2008 10:24 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar woody64  is currently offline woody64
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The shop is a wonderfull idea since I'm investigating for some weeks how to make a own shop to sell my items.

The most important points from my point of view are:

1) Each item gets a customer price from the owner of the mesh. Your part is the producing/sending price and the rest is the designers part.

2) Finishing - Sanding: Would be a great improvement. I've designed some add ons to existing parts and this parts have all a clear and smooth surface.

3) Painting in different colours - would also be great thing ...
I've done several attempts with acryl colours but the results are not as expected ...

4) You state that the shop opens at 8th january. What are the new starting possibilities for designers?

5) If personalized shops are planed then customizing them would be great (shop emblem, ... )

6) Somebody already mentioned the possibility to ask for a variant of the design.

7) The Ordering/Sending was so far very fast. In my case it tooks 5 days in minimum. That' ok. As final target the avarage beyond one week for Europe would be fine.

Andreas


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Re: Shapeways Shops 8th of January 2009 [message #2322 is a reply to message #2321 ] Sun, 28 December 2008 14:38 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar joris  is currently offline joris
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@andreas,

1, thats exactly how it would work. Each model has a base price and the designer can choose how much they would like to earn.

2. im a bit surprised that so many are interested in sanding, and we are looking at this.

3. We're looking at painting. Did you look at our painting tutorial? If you have any results good or bad email them to us, that way we can let everyone learn from them.

4. You can sign up for the beta now, we will add people as we can.
http://www.shapeways.com/betashops/betashops_sign_up

5. You can choose a logo, url, shop name for now and we hope to add more things in the future.

Joris
Re: Shapeways Shops 8th of January 2009 [message #2323 is a reply to message #2322 ] Sun, 28 December 2008 15:04 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar yanying  is currently offline yanying
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joris wrote on Sun, 28 December 2008 09:38



3. We're looking at painting. Did you look at our painting tutorial?


Apologies, digression from thread topic.

We use a Objet 3d printer at our school. Our models are UV cured resin. Typically, how we finish our printed models is we wet sand down the model, and spray paint it. We don't use airbrush. We just get those off the shelf spray cans. (Tamiya brand highly recommended. Dries extremely fast in comparision to other brands. Expensive though.)

Our workshop technician does not recommend we finish with a paintbrush for the simple reason that it takes more skill. You can easily leave glops of paint and unsightly brushstrokes on an otherwise perfect model if your hand is shaky. With spray cans, as long as you spray at an arm's length distance from the model and go over in several really thin coats, the finishing will be perfect. I got it right on my second try. If we need different colours on a model, we just use masking tape to mask off the areas during spraying.

Regarding sanding... a 3d printed model will appear acceptably smooth to a casual beholder. I had not noticed the texture until the technician pointed it out to me that the grain was not acceptable in a presentation model. (Obviously, I am not a very observant student. XD ) But when we handed in our models, the difference was immediately apparent between sanded and unsanded painted models. The sanded model just looks more polished and way better... it shouts quality. (And people are more willing to pay for quality, lookwise and etc etc...)

Okay, you guys can continue with the shop talk. =D

---

[Updated on: Sun, 28 December 2008 15:50 UTC]

Re: Shapeways Shops 8th of January 2009 [message #2324 is a reply to message #2269 ] Sun, 28 December 2008 16:30 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar bvicarious  is currently offline bvicarious
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Joris, I posted in another topic a picture of an object created by a zcorp printer, spectrum I believe is the model name, and it is just as it sounds - the texture map of the model is printed directly on the surface as it is created. Major drawback is that it is a powdery, plastery material that is brittle unless treated. Otherwise it looks and feels pretty solid. In the picture I posted, the model was grabbed from world of Warcraft using a program called OGLE so the polycount as well as the texture resolution is low.

Also, for objects that require add on parts I could just say in the description, "go to mcmaster.com and order four of part #XYZ123" or "is compatible with 1.25" diameter electric tealights" so no problems there.
Re: Shapeways Shops 8th of January 2009 [message #2326 is a reply to message #2322 ] Sun, 28 December 2008 23:45 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar woody64  is currently offline woody64
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Thanks for the answer.

Yes, I did it exactly as explained in the tutorial.

I've used Tamya and Revell acryl colors. Here's a picture. But I was so far not able to have the same look as the originals (see the bicorne).

Maybe the can produces better results ...

http://i17.ebayimg.com/07/i/001/25/be/6837_1.JPG

I've already sent a message for beta testing ...

[Updated on: Sun, 28 December 2008 23:45 UTC]


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Re: Shapeways Shops 8th of January 2009 [message #2327 is a reply to message #2269 ] Mon, 29 December 2008 00:57 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar Whystler  is currently offline Whystler
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Hey folks. I've finally had a chance to check out the shops feature and read through this whole thread! Holidays busy-ness is over now, whew...

Some of my thoughts:

Selling Tools

I put this at the top, because I think it is very important that something like this be implemented before the January opening.

We need to be able to monitor our sales. Mistakes always happen when people and computers meet. Let us see a list of sales for each product. Each sale listing should include the date of sale, the price of the item and the buyer's name.

IMVU has a link at the bottom of each product that only the seller can see. When you click on it, you can see every sale of that item. You can also choose the time frame (ie. January 2006 - December 2007) for the list of sales. This way, one can track sales *and* monitor the success of the product over a period of time.

Bounding Boxes vs. Volume Pricing

I'm really getting used to the volume pricing. It makes sense to me .. the more material you use, the more it costs. But I suspect there are charges involved in the actual space taken up by a model in the printing bed isn't there?

I would say if large bounding box - low volume items are causing Shapeways a problem with printing expenses, maybe you should introduce an "element" of bounding box size in final pricing.

How do you go about this ? Well, of course I have an idea Wink

So you charge for volume first, as you always have, but you would add a percentage based on the size of the bounding box.

Here's an example. Let's say I have an item for print that is 10 cm3 in volume, but it has a 10cm x 10cm x 10cm space. So the initial charge of $2 per cm3 is applied, which starts the item out at $20. If the bounding box takes up the same amount of space as the volume then there is no extra charge. But in this case, the bounding box takes up 10,000% of the actual volume. So, maybe you charge an extra 1% of cost for every 100% extra in size. In this case, you have 99 extra 100%'s involved.

This results in a 99% increase in cost of the final model, which results in a model that costs almost twice as much.

In order to keep your Shapies happy though, you will probably need to reduce the material cost in such a way that you have a happy medium. People should eventually be paying more than they are now only in the extreme cases where a huge bounding box significantly affects Shapeways own printing/staffing costs.

Colour

There has been a lot of talk about painting. Personally, I think dying works really really well to colour these materials. I've tried it with purple, and the results are that *very little dye* is needed to produce a nice colour. To much and it will be black. The result of dying is uniform and impressive!

So, if you are considering including colour as an "add-on" done by shapeways, I think you will find dying much easier than spray-painting, not to mention it won't chip off. It seeps right in. Downside: it doesn't smooth out the finish of the item.

To Sand or Not to Sand

I don't think sanding is a viable add-on feature. Sanding is an art unto itself. It requires a skilled and per-item-sensitive worker. If sanding is added, I think Shapeways will encounter a fair amount of customer and seller dissatisfaction, and I think the price to sand objects will be prohibitive to the buyer.

I think we will see new printers within the next 5-10 years that will produce smoother finishes. And I'm sure once a good affordable smooth-printing machine is made, Shapeways will buy it Smile

All that said, the finish of currently affordable printers is unique. In some ways, I think buyers will come to appreciate the texture and associate it with artful objects rather than mass-produced items from a mold. I think some artists may even appreciate the medium to a degree that they will actually *design for* the roughness in some cases.

Casting and Manufacturing

Perhaps in contrast to my previous suggestion, is there any thought about shapies like me, hiring out the molding/casting/and general manufacturing of items *through* Shapeways. What I mean by this is, would Shapeways consider hiring a reputable and affordable secondary company to do this manufacturing? Then prototypes could be developed here, and more materials (ie. resin/vinyl/metal casting) could be introduced. In the end, the most desirable finishes, and pricing could result.

Shop Customization

Eventually, I would like to see shapie shop keepers have the ability to customize their shop pages from top to bottom - like a myspace page: background, fonts, html...

Promotional opportunities for us from Shapeways

-Ability to purchase banner advertising on the Shapeways shopping pages.

-Showcase pages

-Window-shopping pages where buyers can look through a set of pre-ordained categories. You see this on Ebay and on Etsy. IMVU used to have this, but neglected the idea to the point that you can't find the categories. I saw a notable decrease in sales since IMVU did this. With categories, people get to window shop. They see and buy items that they would never have looked for. If all a buyer has is a search field, then will buy a good deal less than if they can window shop.

-themed catalogues that could be sent as an email newsletter or can be accessed on the Shapeways site. The catalogue would consist of ... well ... a theme of course .. like Spring Garden for example. Then the pictures and descriptions could be lifted from the html on the pages of items that had butterflies, and flowers, and GNOMES Wink with the appropriate link thru's.

Re: adding extra bits

Bvicarious brought up the point of adding extra bits like steel axels to one of his items. I think there is some merit to thinking about this.

If Shapeways got big enough .. sorry ... when Shapeways gets big enough, is it concievable that they could offer the adddition of special common thingies to a purchase, such as:

-a leather thong or metal chain strung through a pendant

-a broach pin glued to the back

-stickers or decals added to models, or sent unattached with the package for the customer to add (perhaps laser cut?)

While we're on the topic of expanding .. keep a close eye on Ponoko. Their advertising suggests they want to expand to the 3D printing market. I would prefer to see Ponoko stick to laser cutting and Shapeways continue their awesome service. I wonder if any cooperation between you two is possible...

Models made available to public

I am not interested in this. While the type of modelling required for Shapeways doesn't translate to other things, like game art because of Shapeways high poly needs ... I would not want my models available to anyone who might print them in the same fashion with another company, or worse yet, beging to manufacture them after using my model as a prototype.

I understand that one may wish to give the customer some control over tweaking a model. Maybe there is a better seller-involved way of doing this. Fortunately, Shapeways models are vetted for manifold and watertight issues before they are accepted for download. So this shouldn't be an issue to buyers. Sellers should be prepared to test their models before offering them on the market.

Limited editions

IYes, I am a fan of this. Put a counter on a product page that counts the number of sales. When the limited number is reached, then the product page's status is turned to invisible so only the seller can see it.

Resizing option for buyer?

Not a big fan ... When I design a model, I usually take the medium's/material's abilities into account. So, if I have designed something with a 2mm wall, then it should probably stay that way. If someone resizes it smaller (25%), so that the wall then becomes .5 mm, the wall then may not be stable enough, and the customer loses.

Also, details may not be visible enough in smaller sizes, and the functionality of the item may decrease.

Bundling Items

I think this is a good idea.

What if the piece I design is so high in poly count that its pieces need to be separated into different products? I would like to bundle it for ease of shopping.

What if the piece I design has such a huge bounding box, that it would need to printed in pieces? Again, a bundle would be good for easy shopping.

What if I made three cute bunny sculptures ... one is sniffing a flower .. another is munching clover, and the third is a couple of bunnies making whoopee? I could sell the separately, but maybe I could offer them as a bundle of three also, and reduce my overall markup. Let's say if each sculpture has a markup of $2.00 ($6 markup if you bought them separately), then I could make a bundle of the three with only a $5.00 markup to encourage multiple sales.

Addressing the shops as they stand now

I think the adding a banner feature is broken. I tried to upload a banner (which was in jpg format), and I was informed that my banner could not be loaded because it wasn't in jpg form Smile

I'm hoping also that the inability to have invisible products in our galleries and shops is only a bug. There are things that are not finished or that I would prefer to keep private. So the invisible feature is needed.

Will you bring invisible back?

Well, I think that's all for now. I pity the poor one having to read all of this Wink

-Whystler

[Updated on: Mon, 29 December 2008 00:59 UTC]


Check out my website: http://tshawnjohnson.wordpress.com/
Re: Shapeways Shops 8th of January 2009 [message #2343 is a reply to message #2269 ] Wed, 31 December 2008 01:42 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar bvicarious  is currently offline bvicarious
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Another aspect of allowing customers to scale the model as they like is how it affects the commission we get from the sale. Suppose I set an object at $25, it costs $10 to print, and the customer wants to scale it by half. Would it then cost $5 to print but still have my $15 charge, so the customer would pay 5 dollars less for something half the size? Would it be percentage based, and I'd get half of what I normally would? These questions are enough to argue against the idea. It would be easier to allow shop owners to list their objects at whatever and however many different sizes as they want. Still, it sort of adds to the concept of getting what you want exactly how you want it, and 3d printing is the best avenue for providing that.

re: bounding box size, I don't know how shapeways operates, but to my knowledge the software can arrange as many different objects as will fit and do them all at once. If an object takes up the entire space of the 3d printing bed, they can't group any other objects with that batch. Time = money to some extent, even with a 10 day turnaround time, so it might technically be adding to the cost for shapeways. Maybe some kind of flat fee based on bounding box size would be fair?

re: casting and manufacturing, I already have made some molds and plan on doing more very shortly. I will probably end up selling some castings of objects on Etsy or someplace. Does shapeways have any opinion on this one way or the other? I like the idea of people buying original 3d prints from here, and buying my rapid prototype-aided castings elsewhere.


re: ponoko, I just signed up for their prime service a few weeks ago, and even with the reduced rates it's tricky to make something cheap enough to be attractive to a large audience, but I digress.. even if they don't cooperate with each other I'd still like to marry their lasercut parts with shapeways' 3d prints.
Re: Shapeways Shops 8th of January 2009 [message #2346 is a reply to message #2303 ] Thu, 01 January 2009 12:18 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar woody64  is currently offline woody64
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Yesterday I was oncemore asked for a custom design.

Since you are already working on this, I can share my requests:
- customizing an existing modell
- asking for a new one

for both there's the need for calculating the design costs as extra to the model.

Andreas


More then 8100 items sold over SW (but still a hobby)
Minifigcustomsin3d at: Facebook Flickr Twitter
References: 3d Printing Industries, CNN, J. Burks, Ugly Duckling, M.Evans, Stop Motion Film,Computer BILD, How to Become a 3D Printing Entrepreneur
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Re: Shapeways Shops 8th of January 2009 [message #2347 is a reply to message #2269 ] Thu, 01 January 2009 22:26 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar rtdgreg  is currently offline rtdgreg
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Pricing Model - this issue has been raised on this thread.

First, I would to comment that your present model has considerable appeal. A simple deterministic inclusive cost delivered to anywhere in the world, tax paid. Great.

Next, I would like to think about the print process. Here, I suspect that in some cases the machine time is proportional to the volume of delivered plastic, in some cases it might be closely related to the volume of the bounding box. Others might be somewhere between these figures, but few, if any would fit outside this model, although we can expect some effective job to job down time or setup time.

I think job setup / changeover time should be absorbed into your pro-rata charges, as they are at present. That's a really good feature of your present pricing model. You don't want to make a lump sum charge to produce a zero volume model & then add charges for the actual end product. To do so would actively discourage new users.

If you print time is actually proportional to the volume of delivered plastic, then I think you've got your pricing model spot on.

However, if your process time is closer to proportional to the volume of the bounding box, you should consider adding complexity to your pricing model.

The reason is this. Clearly you will have the cost of your consumables & your machinery needs to earn money. However,by charging proportional to delivered material volume, you may be acting to your own disadvantage, and to the disadvantage of your customers. You encourage your designers to make hollow models. In so doing, they (we!) might be putting extra design work in to make a model that looks identical, but is lighter. But in so doing you might be saving little machine time, and the impact on the cost to you of materials might be relatively small.

I am suggesting that your pricing model should be the sum of two components. One, proportional to the volume of delivered plastic (the present model), plus another, proportional to the volume of the bounding box.

This could discourage your contibutors from investing their time in an endeavour that reduces your selling price, but has little impact on your costs.

How would a price proportional simply to the volume of the bounding box work out? I guess it wouldn't fly, because it gives too much encouragement to designers to make solid (as opposed to hollow) models. That comes down to how sensitive your costs are to delivered mass.

Kind regards
Greg Walker
Re: Shapeways Shops 8th of January 2009 [message #2358 is a reply to message #2347 ] Mon, 05 January 2009 15:04 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar joris  is currently offline joris
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Wow guys, there is so much information in the posts above! You're overwhelming us a bit here, but in a good way. I can't possibly answer everything in a legible way but will try to adress as much as I can.

About the pricing discussion: rtdgreg hits the issues right on the nail. So we're looking along those same lines at a model that allows us to lower prices overal but isn't complex.

Because of this I like Whystler's model also but we need to do the math on that to see if it would work.

woody64's suggestion that we need standard pricing would seem to imply that everyone would have the same rate?

bvicarious, about the scaling: that would seem to be the case. About Ponoko+Etsy, it is curious to see that you would use all three services or want us all to work together. I had personally not considered that. I thought that a person would either try Ponoko because they liked them or their materials or us for example. Using all three would seem to point to some kind of OpenID for manufacturing.

Whystler: we know how important analytics will be for you guys but will not have this in place before the opening. About the dye, I agree completely this does seem to be the best way to go. Sanding: I personally agree with this also, sanding is too complex to carry out consistently. If you know any very good casting firms feel free to email them to me. With regards to Shop personalization: the MySpace example made me physically cringe, but I understand the point.

The "window shopping" points thta Whystler brings up are very valid also. We get lots of different people that visit Shapeways and we have lots of models also we have to try to find a balance between window shopping, allowing people to find exactly what they need and showing off all the shops and models.

yanying, yes, Tamiya paint is the best and we do paint Objet materials in the same way that you guys do. Although I personally do not tend to sand them.






Re: Shapeways Shops 8th of January 2009 [message #2360 is a reply to message #2269 ] Mon, 05 January 2009 16:44 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar fx  is currently offline fx
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Your pricing per cubic centimeter is very simple and easy. I think this is one of your main advantage, because the user can understand very easily what drive the cost ahead. Some of your competitors are using a “proprietary” formula which use many variables. For the average user, the quoting button works with black magic! Sometimes the formula can be somewhat reverse-engineered by quoting several different parts, but this is not for the basic hobby user because it is anoying and not fun – unless he is a math freak !

However, I think that the shipping cost integrated in the part price is not very fair, because the guy that orders a part from the Netherlands pays the same that somebody ordering from the U.S.A (and in facts he “subvents” a part of the shipping cost to the U.S.A – The guy in the U.S is making the best trade). I think it could be better to reduce the price per cubic centimenter of material. You could say for instance: Europe, add 10% shipping to the price of the parts / Rest of the world : add 20% shipping to the price of the parts.

In facts, the only things I ordered which had the same shipping worldwide were leds from Hong Kong and pager motors – In both cases, it was very small items shipped in an envelope.

[Updated on: Mon, 05 January 2009 16:51 UTC]

Re: Shapeways Shops 8th of January 2009 [message #2364 is a reply to message #2360 ] Tue, 06 January 2009 13:04 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar joris  is currently offline joris
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Yeah, we love the way that the pricing is simple and instant and we're not likely to give that up.

It is true that customers in certain countries are subsidized by others.

The idea is that we will expand production locations at one point so this will no longer be an issue.

My issue with the shipping is that I don't think that a lot of people realize it. If you go on Amazon you think, wow this book is only $8, then you make a decision to buy it and end up paying $6 in shipping extra.

We didn't want it, one price seemed more honest, clear and direct. But, this might hurt us since the price perception is higher.
Re: Shapeways Shops 8th of January 2009 [message #2369 is a reply to message #2364 ] Tue, 06 January 2009 16:06 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar Whystler  is currently offline Whystler
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As a consumer, when I buy an item online I am usually attracted to the price that is given before shipping is added. And then when reasonable shipping is added, I just accept it. I don't actually think ... is this item worth it's price plus shipping? I usually just evaluate whether the item I like is worth it's price before shipping in order to make my purchase decision. This is unwise shopping, but it is instinctive.

I have to admit, pricing for shipping on Ponoko is scary. I made an item that costs $15 to produce, and yet the shipping and handling is $30 ... When I see this as a consumer, I am not interested. The instinct I get here is that the company is either overcharging, or not good enough to find a decent postal rate. And what happens is, I start looking for someone to give me the same service elsewhere with sane shipping costs.

-Whystler


Check out my website: http://tshawnjohnson.wordpress.com/
Re: Shapeways Shops 8th of January 2009 [message #2372 is a reply to message #2369 ] Tue, 06 January 2009 16:31 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar woody64  is currently offline woody64
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I. Shipping

My experiences concerning shipping is contradictionary.

I love the way shapeways does. Having the price of a piece and no extras and no shipping costs.

I often did it the way Whystler does and ended up in an attractive price but with a shipping cost that destroys this advantage completely.

Amazon is often so attractive since in many cases there are no shipping costs.

Also shipping costs added at the end of the ordering often hasve some nasty suprises. For one country it's cheap but all the other ones have horrible prices.

II. The Shop

I've started the shop today and there's one important thing I see as first impression.
When you are member and logged in you get the shop view.
But non members end up with "user details" at the right side instead of "shop details". Am I right?
So people coming from a reference didn't recognize that they are in a shop?

Andreas


More then 8100 items sold over SW (but still a hobby)
Minifigcustomsin3d at: Facebook Flickr Twitter
References: 3d Printing Industries, CNN, J. Burks, Ugly Duckling, M.Evans, Stop Motion Film,Computer BILD, How to Become a 3D Printing Entrepreneur
More then 270 shop items (more then 146 already printed once) More the 500 successful Products (Items&material printed once)
Re: Shapeways Shops 8th of January 2009 [message #2373 is a reply to message #2372 ] Tue, 06 January 2009 16:35 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar joris  is currently offline joris
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woody64 wrote on Tue, 06 January 2009 11:31

I. Shipping

II. The Shop

I've started the shop today and there's one important thing I see as first impression.
When you are member and logged in you get the shop view.
But non members end up with "user details" at the right side instead of "shop details". Am I right?
So people coming from a reference didn't recognize that they are in a shop?

Andreas


Woody, you are right but this is only temporary. When we go live on the 8th it will be different and then everyone can see the Shops, the logos in them etc..

Joris
Re: Shapeways Shops 8th of January 2009 [message #2375 is a reply to message #2373 ] Tue, 06 January 2009 16:50 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar woody64  is currently offline woody64
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ad II:
That's ok then ....

III. I did an update on "user profile" of the shop description.
After saving that the "shop name" wasn't visible any longer and the shop url disappeared and resultet in 404.

IV. There should be the possibility to add some general descriptions for the shops.
(To my point of view that can be done in the forum. For example one thread for each shop, linked to the shop description ).
Did you discuss that inernally?

V. Errors/Feature requests. Do you use an interface (Bugzilla or anything else) for that (maybe I missed that)

Andreas


More then 8100 items sold over SW (but still a hobby)
Minifigcustomsin3d at: Facebook Flickr Twitter
References: 3d Printing Industries, CNN, J. Burks, Ugly Duckling, M.Evans, Stop Motion Film,Computer BILD, How to Become a 3D Printing Entrepreneur
More then 270 shop items (more then 146 already printed once) More the 500 successful Products (Items&material printed once)
Re: Shapeways Shops 8th of January 2009 [message #2376 is a reply to message #2375 ] Tue, 06 January 2009 16:57 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar woody64  is currently offline woody64
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VI. When ordering my own items my own "markup" is also included in the price of the order?


More then 8100 items sold over SW (but still a hobby)
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References: 3d Printing Industries, CNN, J. Burks, Ugly Duckling, M.Evans, Stop Motion Film,Computer BILD, How to Become a 3D Printing Entrepreneur
More then 270 shop items (more then 146 already printed once) More the 500 successful Products (Items&material printed once)
Re: Shapeways Shops 8th of January 2009 [message #2378 is a reply to message #2375 ] Tue, 06 January 2009 17:00 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar joris  is currently offline joris
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woody64 wrote on Tue, 06 January 2009 11:50

ad II:


III. I did an update on "user profile" of the shop description.
After saving that the "shop name" wasn't visible any longer and the shop url disappeared and resultet in 404.

IV. There should be the possibility to add some general descriptions for the shops.
(To my point of view that can be done in the forum. For example one thread for each shop, linked to the shop description ).
Did you discuss that inernally?

V. Errors/Feature requests. Do you use an interface (Bugzilla or anything else) for that (maybe I missed that)

Andreas


Woody, you seem to have hit a bug, the shop sometimes updates in this way and then the name is lost. It has to do with the saving of the photos and should be corrected tomorrow. I will correct it for you manually.

You can add a small general description under "description" on your profile under 3, but I guess we could do it with the forum also. We did not talk about this, but we can certainly do this.

We do have bugzilla internally but it is not acessible to beta testers. But, you can email anything to me and I'll handle it.
Re: Shapeways Shops 8th of January 2009 [message #2379 is a reply to message #2378 ] Tue, 06 January 2009 17:17 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar Whystler  is currently offline Whystler
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Is there a workaround for the bug that doesn't recognise the file of the submitted JPG for shop banners? I see that woody and daddymack have banners up.

I feel like i'm the only one without a shop banner.

*cry* Wink

-Whystler


Check out my website: http://tshawnjohnson.wordpress.com/
Re: Shapeways Shops 8th of January 2009 [message #2380 is a reply to message #2379 ] Tue, 06 January 2009 17:26 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar joris  is currently offline joris
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That one is strange, have you tried just another random JPG to see if it works?

Joris
Re: Shapeways Shops 8th of January 2009 [message #2381 is a reply to message #2378 ] Tue, 06 January 2009 17:28 UTC Go to previous messageGo to previous message
avatar woody64  is currently offline woody64
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ad IV.

When the description handles normal web links then anybody can do it the way he likes and there's no additional work for you to do.
Using the forum for this is only a proposal from my side,

VII. Is there a reason why you don't use subadressing like
<shopname>.shapeways.com
for the shopaddress.

Andreas


More then 8100 items sold over SW (but still a hobby)
Minifigcustomsin3d at: Facebook Flickr Twitter
References: 3d Printing Industries, CNN, J. Burks, Ugly Duckling, M.Evans, Stop Motion Film,Computer BILD, How to Become a 3D Printing Entrepreneur
More then 270 shop items (more then 146 already printed once) More the 500 successful Products (Items&material printed once)

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