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Re: FUD wax removal. [message #33851 is a reply to message #33808 ] Tue, 06 September 2011 14:58 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar BillBedford  is currently offline BillBedford
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Be careful of house hold detergents, many have lanolin in them* which can cause problems with paint adhesion.

* to keep hands soft.........


Bill Bedford
Re: FUD wax removal. [message #33854 is a reply to message #33851 ] Tue, 06 September 2011 15:11 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar stop4stuff  is currently offline stop4stuff
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Thanks for the heads-up Bill. I just checked the ingredients for the products I'm using and luckily none of them mention lanolin... the replacement ultrasonic cleaner with the baby shampoo is working a treat on getting FUD cleaned up (so far), but I will have to test paints on the models to make sure the shampoo is good for the job.

So far, the ultrasonic cleaner is not doing much at all to the little cubes, and I don't expect them to get freed up, so redesign time for them Sad
Re: FUD wax removal. [message #33864 is a reply to message #33854 ] Tue, 06 September 2011 16:29 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar minimaker  is currently offline minimaker
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I'm not painting my part so I've not checked if no residue is left. i just needed to free the details which were covered and that worked. The wax is still warm when I take the part from the oven so any wax on the model can be wiped off.

I don't know if it helps, but the poor man's putty oven is the traditional lightbulb. Those become fairly warm and can be used as an oven (my first portable oven was actually made using six lightbulbs from my bicycle and four AA batteries). So if you have a desklight you can put a part near the bulb to warm it. Be careful though since they become very warm. I'd not use more than 25 Watt.

Also, if you want me to test how well the oven works on one of your rubic cubes, contact me and we'll see if we can get that arranged.
Re: FUD wax removal. [message #33870 is a reply to message #33864 ] Tue, 06 September 2011 17:46 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar stannum  is currently offline stannum
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How do you control the temperature? You mention 55C, but then say it's a DIY putty oven. Wild guess? Extra circuits to control the light? Periodical manual checks?
Re: FUD wax removal. [message #33873 is a reply to message #33870 ] Tue, 06 September 2011 18:27 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar stop4stuff  is currently offline stop4stuff
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I'm guessing that for a DIY incadesant light oven all that's needed is a thermometer & a drill... test the temperature & drill a hole in the case if it's too hot, repeat as necessary.

@mimimaker - the little rubiks cubes have had plenty of heat & the smallest of internal cavities become wax free, but there seems to be an issue with two of the center squares fusing to the central spindle on all of them - must be a print orientation thing.

Re: FUD wax removal. [message #33880 is a reply to message #28535 ] Tue, 06 September 2011 19:25 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar minimaker  is currently offline minimaker
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To avoid misunderstandings. The oven I'm using now has a heat element, not a light bulb: http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v490/minimaker/Mini%20scul pting-Tools/Hotplate_putty_oven/oven1.jpg I set the temperature but choosing the right voltage. And since I'm still using the prototype it does have a hole for a thermometer. That's how I can check the temperature. Laughing

The older version of this did have a lightbulb ( http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v490/minimaker/Mini%20scul pting-Tools/?action=view&current=ef93.jpg). But the temperature of this is far less easy to regulate. It was like Stop4stuff saus: touch the metal, too hot, turn off, turn on again after 5 minutes. Hehe, I'm so happy with the new design.

Note, these ovens were not made for wax removal but for curing epoxy putty. Wax is just another thing it seems to be useful for.

[Updated on: Tue, 06 September 2011 19:26 UTC]

Re: FUD wax removal. [message #33887 is a reply to message #33880 ] Tue, 06 September 2011 19:54 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar mctrivia  is currently offline mctrivia
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i use a convection toaster oven for curing apoxy. not sure if mine will go down to 55C though but I will have to check.


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Re: FUD wax removal. [message #33964 is a reply to message #33873 ] Wed, 07 September 2011 20:12 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar stannum  is currently offline stannum
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The drill trick is interesting, but ignores enviroment temperature, air humidity, etc will vary along the year, so internal temperature will vary.

Thanks for the info... with current lamp market, probably better to buy some ceramic resistors, maybe even a sensor so it is just a matter of calibrating a scale on a pot.
Re: FUD wax removal. [message #33973 is a reply to message #33964 ] Wed, 07 September 2011 22:25 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar minimaker  is currently offline minimaker
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Yeah, for my purpose some variation in the temperature is allowed. If you do need it you can add a temperature regulator circuit.
Re: FUD wax removal. [message #38272 is a reply to message #33973 ] Wed, 09 November 2011 22:47 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar GWMT  is currently offline GWMT
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I got about 98% of the wax out of this piece by setting it on top of the gas fireplace where the heated air comes out. The parts is setting on a paper towel which rests on an 8" drywall knife (any metal plate would do).

I kept turning the part periodically for about 3 hours; the part got hot to the touch but not painfully hot. I'll follow up with a wash in acetone before painting.

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Re: FUD wax removal. [message #38286 is a reply to message #38272 ] Thu, 10 November 2011 06:06 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar LincolnK  is currently offline LincolnK
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Gas, fire, wax, and paper.

I am glad you are still alive and that your house didn't burn down. Smile

That sounds like a very NOT safe way to extract the wax which I am assuming is probably flammable.

Lincoln


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Re: FUD wax removal. [message #38312 is a reply to message #38286 ] Thu, 10 November 2011 16:01 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar GWMT  is currently offline GWMT
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You forgot the wooden handle on the drywall knife!

It runs on natural gas (so we still have heat when the electricity goes out) - there's no danger of fire. The combustion chamber is sealed off from the house air; cold house air comes in the bottom, gets warmed up around the chamber and rises out the top. You can hold your hand on the top and not get burned.

It's like setting the part in the sun on your car dashboard on a hot day with the windows closed. A toaster oven is more dangerous than a gas fireplace re: fire.
Re: FUD wax removal. [message #39270 is a reply to message #38312 ] Sat, 26 November 2011 01:19 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar Giga Bread  is currently offline Giga Bread
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Has anyone experimented with a pressure cooker? I know a lot of people use it when casting to remove air bubbles. It sort of would be the opposite process but I wonder if it would help force the melted wax out.
Re: FUD wax removal. [message #40695 is a reply to message #28535 ] Fri, 23 December 2011 16:47 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar darthviper107  is currently offline darthviper107
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I've had luck recently cleaning off wax just by running the print under hot water for a few minutes, Probably works well since the hot water will melt the wax a bit and then wash it out. Best part is it won't damage the print and works for delicate parts.

[Updated on: Mon, 02 January 2012 06:31 UTC]

Re: FUD wax removal. [message #40707 is a reply to message #40695 ] Fri, 23 December 2011 21:40 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar Roy_Stevens  is currently offline Roy_Stevens
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I do a LOT with FUD, so needed a better way. 90% isopropyl alchohol in a $30 harbor freight ultrasonic cleaner does a great job of cleaning my prints quickly. I was using alchohol and a soft bristle toothbrush.


Earl Grey, hot.
Re: FUD wax removal. [message #41007 is a reply to message #40707 ] Sun, 01 January 2012 05:05 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar pumpjet  is currently offline pumpjet
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Hey everyone...
1st Happy New Year to all..


I just got a large order of FUD parts for the battleship. And of course they are full of wax.
So I was thinking what would cut oil/grease and is water soluble.
Then I remembered the oil spills and the animal rescue groups washing the birds and seals with Dawn dish washing liquid. So off to the store on New Years eve to get some.

Mixed a 50/50 solution Dawn and really hot water, filled the ultrasonic cleaner I got from Harbor Freight and ran them through the 3 minute cycle 7 or 8 times.

NO WAX left on the parts. And it did not turn the parts white like when I used Simple Green and water to clean the batch of parts.

Maybe I an on to something. Ok Back into the lab to continue the cleaning...( the kitchen table in my apartment. )

Still messing with the rock tumbler to polish up the parts but I need to get some more grit and experiment with that idea..


Bob
Re: FUD wax removal. [message #41008 is a reply to message #41007 ] Sun, 01 January 2012 05:34 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar stannum  is currently offline stannum
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Did you use the ultrasonic cleaner with Simple Green also? Maybe the trick is the machine, maybe the soap used, maybe both things.
Re: FUD wax removal. [message #41010 is a reply to message #41008 ] Sun, 01 January 2012 06:41 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar pumpjet  is currently offline pumpjet
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Yup tried the ultrasonic with the Simple Green and water mix. It turned the parts to white. Simple Green is is a degreaser. It can be used to clean grime and gunk from auto parts if used straight from the bottle.
With that in mind I wanted something a little less aggressive so I tried the Dawn.
I put in really hot water in the ultrasonic cleaner with the Dawn and let it do it thing for about 25 minutes. The ultrasonic cleaner heats the liquid up to a really hot temp after that long a time in the bath.
Rinsed the parts under hot water and let dry. So far things a looking wax free but I will have to have a good look tomorrow.


Re: FUD wax removal. [message #41022 is a reply to message #41010 ] Sun, 01 January 2012 19:00 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar pumpjet  is currently offline pumpjet
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Hello
Here are pics of the dawn/water ultrasonic cleaner test from last night. Interesting results. Maybe there is a printing problem with the equipment or process. You can see the difference on the right parts group in the pic. There is a definite separation line half way up the side. Above the line I have a rough frost finish. Below the line is a translucent.
The parts on the left in the photo came out perfect. Translucent, no frosting what so ever.

So what is the variable that is causing this? Most of my other parts have the rough frost look which is going to have to be sanded somehow ( rock tumbler maybe ). Needless to say there seems to be a bug in the printing process that is causing this.

Pics to follow.

Bob

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[Updated on: Sun, 01 January 2012 19:08 UTC]

Re: FUD wax removal. [message #41023 is a reply to message #41022 ] Sun, 01 January 2012 19:02 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar pumpjet  is currently offline pumpjet
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Next image

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[Updated on: Sun, 01 January 2012 19:09 UTC]

Re: FUD wax removal. [message #41024 is a reply to message #41023 ] Sun, 01 January 2012 19:03 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar pumpjet  is currently offline pumpjet
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3rd pic

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[Updated on: Sun, 01 January 2012 19:10 UTC]

Re: FUD wax removal. [message #41025 is a reply to message #41024 ] Sun, 01 January 2012 19:05 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar pumpjet  is currently offline pumpjet
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4th imageindex.php?t=getfile&id=13040&private=0

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Re: FUD wax removal. [message #41026 is a reply to message #41025 ] Sun, 01 January 2012 19:07 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar pumpjet  is currently offline pumpjet
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5th image


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Re: FUD wax removal. [message #41027 is a reply to message #41026 ] Sun, 01 January 2012 20:45 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar BillBedford  is currently offline BillBedford
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As has been explained many many times before on this forum, the frosting happens where the support wax is laid down alongside the plastic material. If the piece is cleaned too aggressively, with solvents or detergents then the surface between the wax and plastic becomes etched in the way these photos show. More than that, if the piece is left in a solvent for too long, the whole surface will become etched.
So what is the answer?
I don't know. There have been various solutions posted here, but none seem the total answer, and, of course, what action is taken will depend on the sort of finish that is needed. In general I would do the minimum possible. If the wax seems thick heating the piece on an absorbant surface may do the trick, as will washing in hot water. I've also heard that washing with Isopropyl alcohol, either in an ultrasonic bath or applied with a aerosol spray will work. I've been told of one company that had some success using two ultrasonic baths, the first with sunflower oil and the second with soapy water, but I have not been able to verify the results.
It is interesting to note that 3D Systems, who make these ProJet machines have nothing on their website about finishing this material. So maybe they don't know what the solution is.



Bill Bedford
Re: FUD wax removal. [message #41036 is a reply to message #41027 ] Mon, 02 January 2012 05:13 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar Roy_Stevens  is currently offline Roy_Stevens
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The problem pictured here is not support material frosting. You can see a bit of that type of texture in the center of the round holes in the box. This texture is most certainly a problem with the printer and you should insist that Shapeways provide a re-print. Thanks for the Dawn tip, I'm going to try that to see if it's as effective as the alchohol. I have to remove the alchohol from the ultrasonic cleaner and put it in an airtight container to prevent it from evaporating when not in use. It has also crazed the plastic parts of the cleaner.


Earl Grey, hot.
Re: FUD wax removal. [message #41039 is a reply to message #41036 ] Mon, 02 January 2012 05:36 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar pumpjet  is currently offline pumpjet
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I learned that heated 91% alcohol crazed the see through top of my ultrasonic cleaner today. Spent some time sanding and polishing it to it's clear original see through condition. I guess the next time the top stays open.

Thanks for the heads up on the printing problem. I thought that something was messed up by the frosting being half way up the side of the parts enclosure. So it looks like I have 1 good usable set of parts and the rest of the orders are trashed. As in junk ! I have invested some hard earned cash into this and do not want to have to repeat the cash layout.
I will definitely be talking to somebody about this.

As this is the first exposure I have had with 3D printing from Shapeways I do not want to get all worked up when I order other parts that are FUD.


Bob
Re: FUD wax removal. [message #41042 is a reply to message #41039 ] Mon, 02 January 2012 06:11 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar pumpjet  is currently offline pumpjet
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Some close ups of the messed up printing on my parts. Even 1 searchlight has a "good" spot on it and the rest is rough frost junk.


index.php?t=getfile&id=13053&private=0

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Re: FUD wax removal. [message #41043 is a reply to message #41042 ] Mon, 02 January 2012 06:13 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar pumpjet  is currently offline pumpjet
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And another

index.php?t=getfile&id=13054&private=0

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Re: FUD wax removal. [message #41044 is a reply to message #41043 ] Mon, 02 January 2012 06:15 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar pumpjet  is currently offline pumpjet
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More frost that is useless


index.php?t=getfile&id=13055&private=0

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Re: FUD wax removal. [message #41045 is a reply to message #41044 ] Mon, 02 January 2012 06:17 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar pumpjet  is currently offline pumpjet
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More





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Re: FUD wax removal. [message #41046 is a reply to message #41045 ] Mon, 02 January 2012 06:33 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar darthviper107  is currently offline darthviper107
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Yeah, if the roughness is that intensive then that's a printing error.
Re: FUD wax removal. [message #41055 is a reply to message #41046 ] Mon, 02 January 2012 12:29 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar BillBedford  is currently offline BillBedford
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Except the roughness was not there before the pieces were subjected to the ultrasonic bath. Without 'as received' photos we can't tell what damage the ultrasonic did.


Bill Bedford
Re: FUD wax removal. [message #41059 is a reply to message #41046 ] Mon, 02 January 2012 13:14 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar pumpjet  is currently offline pumpjet
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Another variable that just dawned on me... My parts are not arriving in 1 shipment. They trickle in several packages over the span of 2 to 3 weeks.
This would indicate that they are not being printed in a single print job. I got 2 shipments with 1 set of parts in each package. Then the larger order showed up. I am still awaiting for the last package to arrive this week. Will photograph them before cleaning for sure.
So it seems logical to assume that the printing parameters may change from 1 run of parts to the next. Maybe the Shapeways print team have more than 1 printer running FUD parts.
Re: FUD wax removal. [message #41060 is a reply to message #41059 ] Mon, 02 January 2012 13:21 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar Giga Bread  is currently offline Giga Bread
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I think this is the case. I received one of my "krake head" models and it had a lot of quality to the print with no frosting. I ended up trading it and ordered a couple more and these are no where near the same quality. I figure they have to have different machines running prints and just like 2D printers, no 2 printers deliver the same results
Re: FUD wax removal. [message #43449 is a reply to message #41060 ] Sat, 04 February 2012 15:44 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar Kaczor  is currently offline Kaczor
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I DO NOT recommend ultrasonic + isopropyl alcohol. It will ruin your model.. Confused

[Updated on: Sat, 04 February 2012 15:44 UTC]

Re: FUD wax removal. FUD plastic [message #45630 is a reply to message #43449 ] Sat, 17 March 2012 23:52 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar pumpjet  is currently offline pumpjet
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Interesting info from supplier.
I found the MSDS for FUD.
Called the supplier, 3DSystems, and spoke to an applications engineer. He said an ultrasonic bath using corn oil heated to between 60 -70 C ( 140-158 F ) for about 10 -15 minutes will get all the wax that is left over from the build process off the model.
So i tried it and it does work. NOTE: oil does not dissipate heat as rapidly as water does so it was still extremely hot after the bath. Then an ultrasonic bath with Dawn dish washing soap and final rinse.

They do look good. He said the corn oil will bring back the translucence to the part. As my parts are already cleaned I will need to experiment with the heavy frosted parts have from the 1st batch of parts that I ordered.

VisiJet SR 200 Plastic is FUD. It is an acrylic material according to the app. engineer. He said there should be no problems with painting with acrylic paints ( my choice ).
So the next order gets a bath of corn oil when I get them.

Bob

Re: FUD wax removal. FUD plastic [message #45640 is a reply to message #45630 ] Sun, 18 March 2012 05:11 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar Roy_Stevens  is currently offline Roy_Stevens
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The translucence is a lie, all the corn oil does is fill in all the microscopic gaps, it's the heat that removes the wax. But it's not the wax that messes with me, it's the oil. It makes painting all but impossible. I still use isopropyl alcohol. It can damage a print if exposed for long periods of time, but I never leave my parts in the ultrasonic for more than ten minutes. It strips all that ridiculous oil, and any residual wax. What it won't do is remove large wax globs.


Earl Grey, hot.
Re: FUD wax removal. FUD plastic [message #46231 is a reply to message #45640 ] Sat, 31 March 2012 03:53 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar AmericanArchetype  is currently offline AmericanArchetype
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For clean up of FUD, I soak the part in a product called Bestine. It's an artist's solvent used for removal of rubber cement and other similar materials. It turns FUD a bright white almost instantly on contact but seems to remove any wax and residue.

I know a friend of mine that soaked his for 48 hours with no damage to small details. I soak mine for only about 10 minutes. Then I remove it and do a light brushing with an artist's brush and then return to the bath. I do that until I'm happy with it and this has been the easiest method I've found without heat or scrubbing.

Also, I've painted FUD treated in this way with acrylic paint with no issues. Have not tried solvent based paint.


www.AmericanArchetypeModels.com
Re: FUD wax removal. FUD plastic [message #46263 is a reply to message #46231 ] Sat, 31 March 2012 23:59 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar stonysmith  is currently offline stonysmith
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FrankNScale wrote on Sat, 31 March 2012 03:53

I soak the part in a product called Bestine.


I tried the Bestine, and it worked quite well.. took driving all over town to find it.. finally found it (only) at Michael's. It comes in a metal can, and I would strongly advise that you only use it in a properly ventilated space. I put some of the Bestine in a small tupperware type container.. it didn't eat the container, but after 2 days it had all evaporated from the sealed container.


Patience, Persistance, Politeness - the 3Ps will help us get us to Perfect Printed Products
Re: FUD wax removal. FUD plastic [message #46402 is a reply to message #46263 ] Tue, 03 April 2012 17:53 UTC Go to previous messageGo to previous message
avatar sbruins  is currently offline sbruins
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Old post but I thought I would put in my $0.02

We have a ProJet here at our shop and we use corn oil to clean out parts. It works great and the parts maintain a good surface finish and keep their "transparent" appearance. If you NEED to get rid of the oily residue you can clean the parts in with whatever cleaner you want but they all seem to leave the "frosting" you are seeing.

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