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3D CAD software [message #20734] Fri, 19 November 2010 13:20 UTC Go to next message
avatar Orangery  is currently offline Orangery
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I'm new to this. I'd like to know what 3D CAD software people are using for dice and other polyhedra.

Re: 3D CAD software [message #20748 is a reply to message #20734 ] Fri, 19 November 2010 18:13 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar aeron203  is currently offline aeron203
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I don't make dice, but I can tell you that for creating objects with polyhedral symmetries, you will probably want to use a topological modeler. These are programs that make it easier to perform the same action on different faces of the polyhedron simultaneously, si that your dice will be well balanced. One popular free program is TopMod, which has some unique and powerful tools, but I favor one called Wings3D because it includes many of the features you find in full-featured editors like Blender that are very powerful but have a steep learning curve.

Wings3D can automatically generate polyhedral primitives for you to start with and it has a very intuitive interface. It is free, of course.

http://www.wings3d.com/

http://code.google.com/p/topmod/

You may want to get into Blender when you get a little more experienced - Blender.org


Aaron - 40westdesigns.com/blog
Re: 3D CAD software [message #20761 is a reply to message #20748 ] Sat, 20 November 2010 02:13 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar mctrivia  is currently offline mctrivia
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I use Alibre to design all my dice. Only $100 but it does have strange bugs that can be frustrating at times.

You can draw a rough sketch then put numbers or equations to how large each dimension should be. Also has a feature to compute the center of gravity which is essential if you want a die that is properly weighted like all my dice are.

If you are a student you can get a copy of Solid Works for $100 otherwise it is $5000. It is an impressive software package and I may consider switch next time I am back in school.


Follow me on twitter http://twitter.com/mctrivia or my blog at http://4ddice.blogspot.com/
Re: 3D CAD software [message #20771 is a reply to message #20734 ] Sat, 20 November 2010 09:17 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar Orangery  is currently offline Orangery
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Thanks for the info. Someone else suggested Google Sketchup which has some decent tutorials. I'll also take a look at Wings3D.
Re: 3D CAD software [message #20774 is a reply to message #20734 ] Sat, 20 November 2010 11:48 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar dizingof  is currently offline dizingof
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With Google Sketchup you have a feature called "component" which basically is what aeron203 described -
"perform the same action on different faces of the polyhedron simultaneously"

You edit one and changes are made through all copies in real time.

With this feature a model like this can be made :
http://www.shapeways.com/model/149198/knot_pendant.html?gid= sg28396


http://www.3Dizingof.com
Re: 3D CAD software [message #20777 is a reply to message #20734 ] Sat, 20 November 2010 14:54 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar Orangery  is currently offline Orangery
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The links below show the type of polyhedrons I would like to create. The first is very similar to a truncated icosahedron except that the hexagons are irregular. I would like them to have the same surface area as the regular pentagon.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Rhombidodecadodecahedron_c onvex_hull.png
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Nonuniform_polyhedron-33-t 012.png
Re: 3D CAD software [message #20796 is a reply to message #20777 ] Sun, 21 November 2010 22:14 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar clsn  is currently offline clsn
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Take a look at http://www.georgehart.com/virtual-polyhedra/uniform-index.ht ml which has links to VRML files of many of these figures.
Re: 3D CAD software [message #20806 is a reply to message #20734 ] Mon, 22 November 2010 10:20 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar Orangery  is currently offline Orangery
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Thanks for the link (looks great) but I am having problems viewing the files. I first installed CosmoPlayer but it didn't allow me to open any of the .wrl files. I then tried something called FreeWRL which displayed the example .wrl file for a split second then vanished. What am I doing wrong?
Re: 3D CAD software [message #20808 is a reply to message #20806 ] Mon, 22 November 2010 12:18 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar clsn  is currently offline clsn
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Not sure what if anything you're doing wrong. Some 3D software needs to "import" VRML instead of just opening it; you might try that if there's an option in your menus.
Re: 3D CAD software [message #20809 is a reply to message #20734 ] Mon, 22 November 2010 12:25 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar dizingof  is currently offline dizingof
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you need to install cortona3d plugin for your browser then you'll see the models and rotate them, zoom etc..


http://www.3Dizingof.com
Re: 3D CAD software [message #20817 is a reply to message #20734 ] Mon, 22 November 2010 19:23 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar aeron203  is currently offline aeron203
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The best VRML viewer I've found is called View3Dscene, a.k.a. the Kambi VRML viewer ( http://vrmlengine.sourceforge.net/ ). They just released a new version and it works great. No browser integration, but no installation needed either (portable).

Oh, and about Blender...
I noticed the link was dead and wondered why. [EDIT - Blender.org is back up after being inaccessible for some reason. I don't know what was going on but I did send Bart an Email about it (he is very active in the Blender community).]
Other than Sketchup+plugins or Wings3D, there is a pretty good app called K-3D ( http://www.k-3d.org/ ) that has quite a bit of potential.

I also forgot to mention Meshlab ( http://meshlab.sourceforge.net/ ), an essential tool for file conversion and other basic 3D work.

[Updated on: Tue, 23 November 2010 01:56 UTC]


Aaron - 40westdesigns.com/blog
Re: 3D CAD software [message #20924 is a reply to message #20734 ] Thu, 25 November 2010 18:17 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar Orangery  is currently offline Orangery
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Thanks for your help aeron.

I might persevere with Google Sketchup for the models. I am now trying to modify archimedean solids so that the faces are circles instead of polygons. Does anyone know how to do this? The idea is to round off the edges to form special spherical dice.
Re: 3D CAD software [message #20926 is a reply to message #20924 ] Thu, 25 November 2010 19:32 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar Magic  is currently offline Magic
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The easier way is probably to make the intersection between a sphere and your archimedean solid.
For example this rounded dice is the intersection between a cube (the 6 flat surfaces) and a sphere (the round surface). Of course, you will have to choose the radius of your sphere carefully so that it is big enough to remove the edges of the solid and small enough to still show the faces of the solid.
Doing a sphere is sketchup not the easiest thing though, unless Dizingof has one secret plugin to do so... Very Happy
Re: 3D CAD software [message #20927 is a reply to message #20734 ] Thu, 25 November 2010 19:49 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar dizingof  is currently offline dizingof
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Why secrete? i keep posting links to Sketchup and plugins for sketchup as if i'm on Google's payroll Very Happy

Sphere is easy.. there's an app for that ehhh.. script.

Check out my 125 Dice designs - you can see what can be done with Sketchup.


http://www.3Dizingof.com
Re: 3D CAD software [message #20928 is a reply to message #20927 ] Thu, 25 November 2010 20:40 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar Orangery  is currently offline Orangery
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Magic, I'm using polyhedrons with more faces (actually 32). I'm still learning Sketchup basics.

Dizingof, those dice are pretty impressive and so many. The parachute dice are cute.

There are various example models I can use for my project as a starting point. I just need to somehow incorporate the circular sides. Can you help me on this?
Re: 3D CAD software [message #20929 is a reply to message #20734 ] Thu, 25 November 2010 20:50 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar dizingof  is currently offline dizingof
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basically to round a mesh you need the right pluging installed - go over the link i posted above and install the essential plugins

you can post here pics or skp or stl file and if i can help i will.


http://www.3Dizingof.com
Re: 3D CAD software [message #20934 is a reply to message #20927 ] Thu, 25 November 2010 21:59 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar Magic  is currently offline Magic
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@Dizingof: Sorry, by "secret" I was meaning "unknown to me " Wink
I've seen that there are different plugins that allow you to make sphere like the Superellipsoid 1.0 but the simplest is probably the Sphere 1.1

@Orangery: in effect this method works for all 5 regular polyhedra but also for the cuboctahedron and icosidodecahedron (32 faces). In fact, I guess it works for any polyhedron that has any of its edges at equal distance for its center.But it does not work necessarly for more complex shapes (for the soccer ball, 32 faces also, for instance, the circles inside the pentagons do not touch the ones inside the hexagons) .

[EDIT] fixed some errors about the soccer ball

[Updated on: Thu, 25 November 2010 22:24 UTC]

Re: 3D CAD software [message #20946 is a reply to message #20934 ] Fri, 26 November 2010 11:05 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar Orangery  is currently offline Orangery
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It is the soccer ball that I wanted to modify. This link http://i1138.photobucket.com/albums/n536/the-orangery/buckyb allnet.png should take you to a rather crude drawing of what the net might look like. As you can see all circles (faces) are the same diameter, its size governed by the pentagon. All sharp straight line edges should be rounded off so it is more like a ball shape.

Dizingof - I went to the 'plugins for sketchup' link but there doesn't seem to be any way of searching for stuff.

Magic- I have downloaded the both the sphere links but it hasn't really helped me that much yet.
Re: 3D CAD software [message #20948 is a reply to message #20946 ] Fri, 26 November 2010 12:02 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar dizingof  is currently offline dizingof
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Orangery wrote on Fri, 26 November 2010 11:05

It is the soccer ball that I wanted to modify. This link http://i1138.photobucket.com/albums/n536/the-orangery/buckyb allnet.png should take you to a rather crude drawing of what the net might look like. As you can see all circles (faces) are the same diameter, its size governed by the pentagon. All sharp straight line edges should be rounded off so it is more like a ball shape.

Dizingof - I went to the 'plugins for sketchup' link but there doesn't seem to be any way of searching for stuff.

Magic- I have downloaded the both the sphere links but it hasn't really helped me that much yet.



you mean like this?
http://www.shapeways.com/model/165998/circles_d8_dice.html?g id=sg28396

you don't need to search, thou you can. simply enter the plugins thread and install the essentials ones
http://forums.sketchucation.com/viewtopic.php?f=323&t=16 909&sid=1c4871911c47975be4fd989cdbeb85f8



http://www.3Dizingof.com
Re: 3D CAD software [message #20950 is a reply to message #20946 ] Fri, 26 November 2010 13:01 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar Magic  is currently offline Magic
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You have to think in 3D. Basically, what you want is a sphere with round faces of the same diameter arranged as the faces of a soccer ball.
If I was in your shoes, my first idea would be to take a sphere, intersect it with first an icosahedron and then with a dodecahedron (ordre is not relevant).
There are 3 unknown: the radius of the sphere, the radius of the icosahedron, the radius of the dodecahedron.
Actually only 2 because you can always change the scale of the whole model.

But to get the same diameter for all the circles, the distance from the center to the face of the dodecaedron, must be the same as the distance from center to the face of the icosahedron.
This gives you a relashionship between the radius of the dodecahedron and the radius of the icosahedron.

Most of the tools work with the radius of the circumscribed sphere (that is the distance from the center to the vertices) that I will call Rv. But what we need is the distance to the face (the radius of the incribed sphere Rf.
Let's do some maths:
for a icosahedron
- Rv20=0.951a (a is the side of the icosahedon, but we don't care)
- Rf20=0.756a
so Rv20/Rf20=1.258 (no more a)
For a dodecahedron
- Rv12=1.401b
- Rf12=1.114b
so Rv12/Rf12=1.258 (no more b)... The same value. Coincidence? Probably not.

As we stated that we wanted Rf20=Rf12, it means that Rv20=Rv12 (very long computation for a very simple result, indeed).

So if you take one dedecaheron and one icosahedron of same radius (do they intersect into a regular soccer ball?*), and then take a sphere of the same center and make the sphere grow until you see it appearing through the 32 faces and go on growing it before the circles overlap, you should get the correct radius for the sphere.
Then, make some boolean operations to keep the part of the sphere that is inside the dodecahedron and the part of the resulting shape that is inside the icosahedron (in Sketch Up, I think you just have to make the intersection of the three, and then remove manually the useless part of spheres).

Hope this helps.

EDIT: *do they intersect into a regular soccer ball?
The answer is no (see the render below). The hexagons are not regular. Each hexagon is surrounded by 3 hexagons and 3 pentagons and each pentagon is surrounded by 5 hexagons. The fact that the hexagons are not regular allows the circle inside this kind of hexagon to have a contact with the circles included into the 3 surrounding regular pentagons (but not the circles of the 3 surrounding hexagons), and each circle included into the regular pentagon will touch all five circles of the surrounding irregular hexagons. This was not the case in the original pattern (no contact). We can bet that this shape illustrates the best packing of 32 identical circles onto a sphere.

[Updated on: Sun, 28 November 2010 10:13 UTC]


So many things to design, so little time...
Re: 3D CAD software [message #20953 is a reply to message #20950 ] Fri, 26 November 2010 13:19 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar Orangery  is currently offline Orangery
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Dizingof- Yes similar to the D8 rounded die but mine would be solid. From the picture it looks like the die could land on a 'gap' (no number).

Magic - Thanks for the info. I was hoping I could make it work by just pressing a few buttons! Crying or Very Sad I will need to read your post a few times before I try it out.

Re: 3D CAD software [message #20954 is a reply to message #20953 ] Fri, 26 November 2010 13:27 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar Magic  is currently offline Magic
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Sorry, I didn't want to confuse you. Just read the last paragraph Smile
- Find a plug-in to draw Archimedean solids.
- Draw a dodecahedron and an icosahedron with same center and same radius (give tham the same orientation as in a soccer ball).
- Then draw a sphere of the same center and ajust the radius so that the circles do not overlap.
- Select all three solids and make the intersection (contextual menu)
- Remove the useless portions of spheres.

[Updated on: Fri, 26 November 2010 13:28 UTC]


So many things to design, so little time...
Re: 3D CAD software [message #20955 is a reply to message #20953 ] Fri, 26 November 2010 13:28 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar dizingof  is currently offline dizingof
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Orangery wrote on Fri, 26 November 2010 13:19

Dizingof- Yes similar to the D8 rounded die but mine would be solid. From the picture it looks like the die could land on a 'gap' (no number).

Magic - Thanks for the info. I was hoping I could make it work by just pressing a few buttons! Crying or Very Sad I will need to read your post a few times before I try it out.




It doesn't. the numbers weight land the dice on a number.

basically you are looking for something like this:
http://www.shapeways.com/model/154177/organic_rhombicosidode cahedron_d12_dice.html?gid=ug28396

but with all circles be even is size.


http://www.3Dizingof.com
Re: 3D CAD software [message #20956 is a reply to message #20955 ] Fri, 26 November 2010 13:55 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar Orangery  is currently offline Orangery
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Dizingof - Yes, this is more like it. Question though, It seems that you can only order items in white, black, green and red although most of your dice are in bronze (nice), silver and Gold.

Magic - Okay I'll ignore the maths bit, thanks.
Re: 3D CAD software [message #20958 is a reply to message #20956 ] Fri, 26 November 2010 14:07 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar dizingof  is currently offline dizingof
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Orangery wrote on Fri, 26 November 2010 13:55

Dizingof - Yes, this is more like it. Question though, It seems that you can only order items in white, black, green and red although most of your dice are in bronze (nice), silver and Gold.

Magic - Okay I'll ignore the maths bit, thanks.


You don't see the metal ordering options for the dies? look again

Almost all my dies are printable with all materials except glass and gray FDM plastic.
I made sure the wall thickness rule apply to metals and lot's of the orders are in metal (see real photos on dies pages)
like these in antique bronze:

http://www.shapeways.com/model/152049/fractal_dice.html?gid= ug28396

http://www.shapeways.com/model/151849/octahedral_dice.html?g id=ug28396


For rendering purposes i prefer the metal colors.


So your dice... how many numbers on it? i.e: D24? D50? etc..




http://www.3Dizingof.com
Re: 3D CAD software [message #20964 is a reply to message #20958 ] Fri, 26 November 2010 14:58 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar Orangery  is currently offline Orangery
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Yes, I see the metals now... more money but they look really cool.

D32's because they are meant for a fictional football league game. There would be around eight dice in total displaying zeros, ones, twos etc. I've worked it all out and the results seem pretty realistic. I have a computerised version somewhere which I could upload to MediaFire if you were interested. It uses fourteen sided virtual die within the program to predict results. It is quite pointless really but it is the sort of thing I used to play as a kid (with specially labelled six sided die).
Re: 3D CAD software [message #20987 is a reply to message #20964 ] Fri, 26 November 2010 18:35 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar Magic  is currently offline Magic
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Here is what I mean:
index.php?t=getfile&id=6059&private=0
The intersection of a dodecahdron (in red) with an icosahedron (in blue) of same diameter is not a regular "soccer ball" (the result is in purple): the hexagons are not regular.
But when you intersect it with a sphere (in green) of proper diameter (83,9 in my case with diameter of polyhedra being 100) you (hopefully) obtain the result (in gold) that you wanted, with circles of equal diameters.
I hope it is clearer now! Smile

  • Attachment: soccer.jpg
    (Size: 35.42KB, Downloaded 464 time(s))

[Updated on: Fri, 26 November 2010 18:36 UTC]


So many things to design, so little time...
Re: 3D CAD software [message #20992 is a reply to message #20987 ] Fri, 26 November 2010 19:50 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar Orangery  is currently offline Orangery
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That's brilliant! It looks better than I had imagined. Unfortunately I am unable to open the file you sent via PM. It says something like 'Invalid Public Key Security Object File' - file is invalid for use as the following : Certificate Trust List. I have no idea what that means.
Re: 3D CAD software [message #20994 is a reply to message #20992 ] Fri, 26 November 2010 20:45 UTC Go to previous message
avatar Magic  is currently offline Magic
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It is an STL file (a kind of format that is used to upload models to Shapeways). The STL extension is also used by windows for security certificate (so if you double-click it Windows will get confused). I though it could be imported into Sketchup, but this is not the case.
I am sending you another PM...

[Updated on: Fri, 29 July 2011 11:51 UTC]


So many things to design, so little time...

 
   
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