| Designing dice for dice snobs [message #16979] Mon, 30 August 2010 22:44 UTC |
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I am a dice collector. My collection of unusual dice has grown by leaps and bounds since finding Shapeways.
I am also a dice snob. I expect my favorites to be constructed correctly. Examine a professional D6. Opposite faces of a D6 should add up to 7. 6 opposite 1, 2 opposite 5 and 3 opposite 4. For a D8 the opposite sides should add up to 9, D20 should add up to 21. You get the idea.
I received a die in my latest order that is very unusual and interesting. However the numbering is off. I'll keep it in my bag of unusual dice for gaming, but I know in my heart of hearts I won't ever use it in a game. *sigh*
Brian
Self Proclaimed Dice Snob
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| Re: Designing dice for dice snobs [message #16980 is a reply to message #16979 ] Mon, 30 August 2010 23:30 UTC |
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I would guess it might be difficult to make a fair die using 3D printing. Particularly some of the designs where the numbers are large and a big part of the design, doesn't this create weighting imbalances because there is more material in some places than others? Even the layer alignment in a 3D printer could cause weighting differences.
In professional dice, don't they carefully fill in the pips so all the faces have the same weight?
I once attended an entertaining talk by Louis Zocchi, who gave all sorts of reasons why his dice were superior to all others.
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| Re: Designing dice for dice snobs [message #16981 is a reply to message #16980 ] Mon, 30 August 2010 23:34 UTC |
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Oddly, I'm less interested in fair, then how it looks.
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| Re: Designing dice for dice snobs [message #16983 is a reply to message #16982 ] Tue, 31 August 2010 00:59 UTC |
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Nice! It looks like you just used the first 12 letters of the alphabet and not the usual way of representing numbers over 12. Properly, after י should come יא and then יב.
That isn't ancient Hebrew, it's still used in modern times (and that's a modern font, and I might even recognize it). I've been pondering looking for (or drawing) a good paleo-Hebrew in the style of the Hasmonean period to make a dreidel. (In the Hasmonean period they were already using letters similar to the modern ones, but a lot of coins and such deliberately used archaizing letters in the old paleo-Hebrew alphabet). Meanwhile I just have a normal one, for now.
You're probably right that *really* fair dice are beyond the capabilities of 3D printing (though I bet that "reasonably" fair dice are perfectly possible, depending on your definition of "reasonably"), but it's nice to stick with shapes that are at least conceivably fair.
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| Re: Designing dice for dice snobs [message #16984 is a reply to message #16982 ] Tue, 31 August 2010 01:02 UTC |
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| dizingof wrote on Tue, 31 August 2010 00:52 | Here is one for your collection... 
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Wow!! Nice job!!
Are the Hebrew symbols on the correct faces?
I wanna design some dice too, to keep the collectors happy!
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| Re: Designing dice for dice snobs [message #17022 is a reply to message #16983 ] Tue, 31 August 2010 12:35 UTC |
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| clsn wrote on Tue, 31 August 2010 00:59 | Nice! It looks like you just used the first 12 letters of the alphabet and not the usual way of representing numbers over 12. Properly, after י should come יא and then יב.
That isn't ancient Hebrew, it's still used in modern times (and that's a modern font, and I might even recognize it). I've been pondering looking for (or drawing) a good paleo-Hebrew in the style of the Hasmonean period to make a dreidel. (In the Hasmonean period they were already using letters similar to the modern ones, but a lot of coins and such deliberately used archaizing letters in the old paleo-Hebrew alphabet). Meanwhile I just have a normal one, for now.
You're probably right that *really* fair dice are beyond the capabilities of 3D printing (though I bet that "reasonably" fair dice are perfectly possible, depending on your definition of "reasonably"), but it's nice to stick with shapes that are at least conceivably fair.
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Trust me its ancient Hebrew.
Modern prints and books mostly use Arial (Hebrew) fonts.
This font was used and still been used for generations in the "old testament" Bible.
As for the 11th and 12th representation of numbers - this dice
was used for learning - few of these dice represent the whole Hebrew alpha bet.
If the collector likes it , i'll have to make some more to complete the collection
Cheers,
Dizingof
http://www.3Dizingof.com
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| Re: Designing dice for dice snobs [message #17025 is a reply to message #17022 ] Tue, 31 August 2010 13:25 UTC |
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Looks a lot like http://new.myfonts.com/fonts/masterfont/turmus-mf/ ; am I right? Sure, fonts have changed over the years (though the venerable Frank-Ruehl is still wildly popular in books), and I suppose you're right that the basic alphabet is still about the same as it was >2000 years ago, but the particular font here is fairly modern vintage (it's plainly heavily influenced by Frank-Ruehl, for example).
I thought you were implying "Ancient Hebrew" like in http://www.historian.net/siloam.htm or something, before the change to the Aramaic-based square Hebrew. (Like I wrote to you, I was thinking of doing a dreidel with those older characters... Even though they were already using square (modern-like) Hebrew in the Hasmonean period, a lot of Hasmonean coinage and such uses the older, archaizing script as a nationalistic statement.)
Anyway, alphabets and specifically Hebrew are another of my many interests, and you happened to trigger a lecture from me, sorry...
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| Re: Designing dice for dice snobs [message #17033 is a reply to message #16982 ] Tue, 31 August 2010 15:35 UTC |
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| dizingof wrote on Tue, 31 August 2010 00:52 | Here is one for your collection... 
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It's cool, but my dice have to be "working" dice. I don't know the letters to be able to use it easily. The shape is nice and if it had roman numerals....
| Youknowwho4eva wrote on Tue, 31 August 2010 12:13 | Actually I have one that is purposely weighted in my shop
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Problem for me with weighted dice are that most people are thinking craps when they design them, so we get dice that land on 2 and 5 like yours. I want either character builder dice that land on sixes all the time, or Champions dice that land on 1's. That and dice that don't cost $87 in stainless. Gah! (did I forget to mention that I'm also a cheapass bastard?)
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| Re: Designing dice for dice snobs [message #17034 is a reply to message #16979 ] Tue, 31 August 2010 15:37 UTC |
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I was thinking of making it a co-creator. Pick what you want it to land on. I drew those well before stainless.
This ones only $10 in stainless
[Updated on: Tue, 31 August 2010 15:38 UTC] The Mad Moder
michael@shapeways.com
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| Re: Designing dice for dice snobs [message #17038 is a reply to message #16979 ] Tue, 31 August 2010 15:58 UTC |
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If you're willing to get stuff that isn't stainless steel or custom-designed, eM4 Miniatures do a lot of interesting dice, including a set of 2 loaded dice (scroll down just over halfway), and you can specify a pair that roll 6s, a pair that roll 1s, or one of each. They also have matching normal dice for your friends to check you're being honest (just practice your sleight of hand!). 
Andy
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| Re: Designing dice for dice snobs [message #17049 is a reply to message #16979 ] Tue, 31 August 2010 19:51 UTC |
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There you go... A Roman Dice

Cheers,
Dizingof
[Updated on: Tue, 31 August 2010 19:52 UTC] http://www.3Dizingof.com
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| Re: Designing dice for dice snobs [message #17051 is a reply to message #17038 ] Tue, 31 August 2010 20:09 UTC |
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| Drawn-Steel Hero wrote on Tue, 31 August 2010 15:58 | If you're willing to get stuff that isn't stainless steel or custom-designed, eM4 Miniatures do a lot of interesting dice, including a set of 2 loaded dice (scroll down just over halfway), and you can specify a pair that roll 6s, a pair that roll 1s, or one of each. They also have matching normal dice for your friends to check you're being honest (just practice your sleight of hand!). 
Andy
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Nice site, I've order off there in the past. Can't use those loaded ones, my gaming pals are too savy
| dizingof wrote on Tue, 31 August 2010 19:51 | There you go... A Roman Dice Cheers, Dizingof
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Very nice. As soon as I can talk the little lady in to letting me get one die for $58.60, I'll get that!
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| Re: Designing dice for dice snobs [message #17242 is a reply to message #17240 ] Fri, 03 September 2010 21:12 UTC |
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| dizingof wrote on Fri, 03 September 2010 21:04 | 2 new Dices..
Octahedral Dice
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I'll probably get this one eventually . It looks like a D6, but the title is Octahedral, suggesting 8 sides. Which is it?
Brian
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| Re: Designing dice for dice snobs [message #17243 is a reply to message #17242 ] Fri, 03 September 2010 21:32 UTC |
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| gumball wrote on Fri, 03 September 2010 21:12 |
| dizingof wrote on Fri, 03 September 2010 21:04 | 2 new Dices..
Octahedral Dice
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I'll probably get this one eventually . It looks like a D6, but the title is Octahedral, suggesting 8 sides. Which is it?
Brian
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its D6 , the shape is called "Octahedral Symmetry"
Btw, The first 2 dices were ordered yesterday - i thought it was you..
http://www.3Dizingof.com
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| Re: Designing dice for dice snobs [message #17244 is a reply to message #17243 ] Fri, 03 September 2010 21:41 UTC |
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| dizingof wrote on Fri, 03 September 2010 21:32 |
Btw, The first 2 dices were ordered yesterday - i thought it was you..
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No, I will not be able to order anything till my Lulu.com revenues for the this month hit my Paypal account around the 17th. Then I'll have a whole $73.11! (I overspent last month and the little woman wasn't happy!)
Brian
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| Re: Designing dice for dice snobs [message #17245 is a reply to message #17244 ] Fri, 03 September 2010 21:57 UTC |
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| gumball wrote on Fri, 03 September 2010 21:41 |
| dizingof wrote on Fri, 03 September 2010 21:32 |
Btw, The first 2 dices were ordered yesterday - i thought it was you..
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No, I will not be able to order anything till my Lulu.com revenues for the this month hit my Paypal account around the 17th. Then I'll have a whole $73.11! (I overspent last month and the little woman wasn't happy!)
Brian
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Nice... so some one else ordered them.
I guess there is a market for uniquely designed dices. cool.
Cheers,
Dizingof
http://www.3Dizingof.com
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| Re: Designing dice for dice snobs [message #17276 is a reply to message #16979 ] Sat, 04 September 2010 21:09 UTC |
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gumball I don't think that's snobbery, that's just wanting a reasonable die. It's a bit like the ebay sellers who take a picture of a photo of a expensive watch, and then send the buyer the photo that they have bought. Bit different here because we have the chance to do a 3D view and check all the sides, but I would have hoped that a designer of dice would know the basic rules. Bit odd.
Besides, that the 3d viewer doesn't seem to work for me. Not bitter.
SN
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| Re: Designing dice for dice snobs [message #17336 is a reply to message #17296 ] Mon, 06 September 2010 16:44 UTC |
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Gah!!!! Too many dice, not enough Paypal income!
Wow, I'm going to have a hard time choosing come the 17th.....
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| Re: Designing dice for dice snobs [message #17348 is a reply to message #17344 ] Mon, 06 September 2010 18:49 UTC |
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To come back to the initial idea that opposite faces should always sum up to the maximum value plus one, I completely agree with this. Furthermore, for aesthetical reasons, and when possible (for a D6 for instance), I think that the numbers that have an 'orientation' (like arabic or roman numbers and unlike pips) should be always directed so that none has the same orientation (difficult to explain, see one of my D6 for a picture): since you cannot orient them all in the same direction, it is more "balanced" to orient none of them in the same direction. Does that make sense? 
Another remark about the well balanced dice: I have always thought that a D12 (dodechadron) - this time with opposite faces having the same value - is more reliable than a D6 (cube), for the following reasons:
- it rolls better since its shape is closer from a sphere
- when you are on one number you can go to any other number with a slight rotation: any number has all the other numbers as neighbours
- if there is a risk that the die is loaded then, since opposite faces have the same value, the effect is not as efficient (you make a face with a certain number more likely and the opposite face with the same number less likely).
Perhaps an idea for a new member in the dice family?
[Updated on: Mon, 06 September 2010 21:49 UTC]
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| Re: Designing dice for dice snobs [message #17349 is a reply to message #17348 ] Mon, 06 September 2010 19:25 UTC |
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Sounds like a similar idea to that employed by eM-4 on one of their dice; because normal tetrahedral D4s aren't very ergonomic, they produce a D8 with the numbers 1-4 repeated twice.
Andy
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| Re: Designing dice for dice snobs [message #17356 is a reply to message #16979 ] Mon, 06 September 2010 21:32 UTC |
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nice dice Dizi, would have thought you'd have exhausted all your ideas for them with the number you've done
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| Re: Designing dice for dice snobs [message #17369 is a reply to message #17365 ] Tue, 07 September 2010 03:05 UTC |
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Aren't dice supposed to lie flat on their faces? these won't.
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| Re: Designing dice for dice snobs [message #17448 is a reply to message #16979 ] Wed, 08 September 2010 19:08 UTC |
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Maybe we should start a new thread for all your idea's Dizingof?
The Mad Moder
michael@shapeways.com
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| Re: Designing dice for dice snobs [message #17449 is a reply to message #17448 ] Wed, 08 September 2010 19:11 UTC |
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| Youknowwho4eva wrote on Wed, 08 September 2010 19:08 | Maybe we should start a new thread for all your idea's Dizingof?
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Be my guest buddy, i hope i didn't spam this one
Seems relevant to me..
[Updated on: Wed, 08 September 2010 19:12 UTC] http://www.3Dizingof.com
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| Re: Designing dice for dice snobs [message #17450 is a reply to message #17447 ] Wed, 08 September 2010 19:16 UTC |
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| dizingof wrote on Wed, 08 September 2010 18:59 | Shapers, guess what this is?... 
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I'm gonna guess it's a differently-shaped D6, kinda like eM-4's crystal polydice.
Andy
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| Re: Designing dice for dice snobs [message #17476 is a reply to message #17453 ] Thu, 09 September 2010 02:56 UTC |
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Hi, this is a new die I designed with a stylized petal design extending from the centre to the corners:

http://www.shapeways.com/model/153064/petal_die.html?gid=ug2 8511
It has 1mm wall thicknesses. Does it look sturdy enough? I think it should be fine in plastic, but I'm not sure how it will hold up during printing in stainless steel, especially the numbers. They're attached at the top and bottom only.
Also, it is appealing to dice collectors? I'm considering whether to do the same sort of thing with different numbers of sides.
Thanks,
Gillian Posey.
(Note, opposite sides do add up to seven, and I decided to follow Magic's example in orienting the numbers!)
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