Stainless

Discussion in 'Suggestions & Feedback' started by sakcon, Apr 29, 2015.

  1. sakcon
    sakcon Member
    I am not happy with the color of the stainless pieces I get. I have had many returns because of the bronze color.

    What are you going to do to fix this? Maybe it's time to move to another company
     
  2. Bathsheba
    Bathsheba Well-Known Member
    Shapeways, please drop "Stainless" from the material description for Steel.

    The way to get rid of this problem is to be more transparent about what the material actually is.

    I know we were all hoping the material or the finishing process would get better and we could plausibly present this stuff as stainless steel, but that didn't happen and isn't happening.
     
  3. andynewsom
    andynewsom Member
    Agreed. It rusts quickly. I can't think of any reason to call it stainless.
     
  4. UniverseBecoming
    UniverseBecoming Well-Known Member
    As far as the process goes it is variable and there is no way to fix it currently. Here's what's happening in that regard. What they do is they glue together stainless steel powder with 3D printed precision jet printing. They then take that glued together part and put it in a furnace adjacent to bronze and allow the bronze to infiltrate the part via capillary action. This works great! Except there is a problem that randomly occurs having to with the surface color. What happens is more or less bronze ends up on the surface. When more bronze ends up on the surface it appears more bronze looking and when there is less bronze on the surface it appears more stainless steel looking.

    One way to correct the problem would be to simply use an alloy with properties similar to bronze but has a color close to stainless steel.

    The problem happens so often that Shapeways tells everyone about in their Steel material page.

    Shapeways Steel color variation.jpg
    Bussiness wise, Shapeways could fix it by only sending out prints that have a nice consistent stainless steel color but if they did that they'd have to charge quite a bit more for their Steel material.

    As a side note, I just thought of something while writing this. Why not use a ferric chloride solution to etch away the bronze from the surface to reveal the stainless steel.

    Yeah, I agree on using the word stainless on the material page. They should remove it.
     
  5. IntelXeon
    IntelXeon Well-Known Member
    why not just rename it to hard bronze steel ?
    instead of calling it stainless
     
  6. Vannjaren
    Vannjaren Member
    I certainly agree - a real shame that many products do not come out in the desired colour.
    I think it's a real downside that they have many options for warm-coloured materials like bronze etc., but it's so hard to get a cool-coloured grey metal - platinum is ridiculously expensive, rhodium plating is nice - though kind of expensive and might wear off on things like rings, sterling silver is also quite expensive. Steel sometimes isn't detailed enough but I've seen other sites like i.competitive service offering better details. Also this site and competitive service offer 316 stainless steel that from what I've seen actually looks like steel.
    It would be better if they did try something to etch away the bronze colouration on the surface.

    Another option which I WISH, I FREAKIN' WISH, there was a way for me to contact them directly to ask about - is making Pewter a possible material.
    I mean, they already offer CAST silver and bronze, why not cast pewter? Pewter is hella cheap compared to silver, doesn't provoke allergies like nickel, won't lose a plating like rhodium-plated brass, can be polished, is relatively durable, AND has a proper nice grey colour - unlike so-called stainless steel. It can also be sort of antiqued in look as well which can be cool.
    It's a great material for jewellery - as a metalhead I have quite a bit of alchemy gothic jewellery, and of this brand's jewellery that I own; all of it is high quality, all of it is detailed, all of it is shiny, all of it is cool/cold grey - and all of it is is freakin' PEWTER.

    I think I would pass out from happiness if they made it an option. I don't know why they haven't. I'd print so many things in that material, ha.

    They offer platinum, for goodness sake, and white gold... surely pewter wouldn't be too much of a jump?
    I see things about DIY pewter casting online - so obviously if you have a mold and some pewter, it's not such a hard thing to do.
    Unfortunately I can't do this myself since I live in tiny rented accommodation at the moment and I think metalworking wouldn't meet with the landlord's approval, but really, Shapeways, why can't you do it? You already have technology for metal casting, why not this material? Would really kick the asses of some competitors too I think if they brought it in.

    I wish I could get enough people behind me to actually make an impact with this suggestion, I suggested it before and commented on another thread of someone else wanting Pewter, but nothing has ever come of it this far.

    Who's with me?
    If we can't improve the finish of stainless steel (though in some cases it gives a nice effect, but it's not always what you're after), why not offer an alternative that accomplishes what stainless steel lets us down in?
     
    aliciafelber likes this.
  7. UniverseBecoming
    UniverseBecoming Well-Known Member
    Or why not replace the bronze in the ExOne D3 Metal printing process with pewter. I've suggested in the past replacing the bronze with bismuth, but pewter sounds to me like a better suggestion.

    To offer pewter as an investment cast option won't make that material cheaper. Brass and bronze are already cheap alloys offered for investment casting. It does have a low melting point as low as 170 °C for some alloys of pewter and that means it can be cast in rubber molds, spin casting for example, but Shapeways doesn't deal in making multiple castings from a single mold, which is what brings the price down. Shapeways uses one-off casting from molds in their Porcelain material and their investment cast metals and the one-off aspect is what makes the price so high. So, being able to use a silicone or vulcanized rubber mold is not going to make the price come down as far as Shapeways is concerned.

    There is lots of innovation going on lately in the last few years when it comes to 3D printing metal from companies like Desktop Metal, Vader Systems, Mini Metal Maker, Fabric8Labs, XJet, Markforged, so it won't be long before we get some cheaper white metal materials from Shapeways, a few more years at the most. :)
     
    aliciafelber likes this.
  8. Vannjaren
    Vannjaren Member
    Apologies for the late reply - poor internet and revising for the final year exams of a medical degree are a bad combination when it comes to spending time online.

    Indeed, that could be an excellent option - replacing the bronze with Pewter would keep the same printing technique and equipment but simply remove the bronze colouration that is associated with the current method of printing stainless steel.
    It certainly sounds feasible to me - though I know a lot less about the logistics of printing than those of model-making, but I see no reason why it wouldn't work.

    Another thought - why not TIN?
    Either for a replacement of the bronze in the stainless steel printing, or as a material on its own.
    Tin is a much better colour than bronze, and given that silver's price per kilo is roughly 500, and tin's is only 20... much more affordable as a raw material. And it has a decent melting point as well that's not too high.
    Also, why not Zinc? Also a silvery metal, also a fraction of the price per kilo as sterling silver (seems to be only around 3-5 per kg), to the extent of my knowledge does not cause allergies, and has a sensible enough melting point of around 400 - still lower than bronze. And it's hard and durable. Can tarnish but toothpaste should take off the tarnish, apparently.

    Could even be an idea to offer stainless steel with a plating of zinc possibly to cover up the bronze colour?
    Or even silver plating on tin, perhaps - as here: https://www.wulflund.com/jewellery/dinosaur-pendants/smilodon-saber-toothed-tiger-necklace-tin.html/

    Anyway, it is true that it won't make it cheaper than cast brass or bronze - but cast pewter would still be cheaper than cast silver, at least going by the price for the metals themselves.
    And the biggest thing is that it would be a white metal, since I think Shapeways is lacking in that by quite a bit - would be fine if the steel was actually steel-coloured, but alas, it isn't.

    To be honest, most alternative options could beat what they can offer now, as the bronze tone on the steel is REALLY disappointing. Rhodium-plated is the only real alternative other than silver that could look in any way decent and actually come out as a WHITE metal. The steel... has potential, but using bronze in it means the outcome kinda sucks.

    And thankyou for the information there, I didn't know about those developments underway - indeed Shapeways will have to keep up with the current trends, good to hear that there may be more on the way soon enough - and if there is clearly a demand for it from users of the site, perhaps that could spur them on.

    Thanks for your reply by the way!
     
  9. UniverseBecoming
    UniverseBecoming Well-Known Member
    School first! :D

    Thanks for your reply as well. Lots of good ideas in there!
     
  10. Frozenrain
    Frozenrain Well-Known Member
    These are great ideas.But I think shapeways leaves all the steel casting to its partner. So making a change in materials may be more complex than we thought.Hope they heard you and were willing to do something.
     
  11. Vannjaren
    Vannjaren Member
    Ha, unfortunately... XD

    And thanks - between those suggestions and yours, it seems rather odd that they haven't employed any of these - seems almost a no-brainer, since the finish on steel is SO bad!
    I mean, they offer nickel steel as an alternative, but for items like jewellery when contact dermatitis to nickel is so common (and indeed even in people who don't suffer from it, prolonged exposure to nickel can cause them to develop a sensitivity to it as well) the nickel steel is virtually useless as an alternative, even if the finish is closer to what we're after.

    Even if it took time to actually implement the change, at least if they thought about doing SOMETHING along those lines to offer a decent-quality lower-price white metal, or at least more RANGE in terms of options for white/grey metals.
     
  12. Vannjaren
    Vannjaren Member
    Ah, thanks...
    And hmm, I didn't know that the steel casting was down to a partner... so indeed a change in materials may take some admin to actually bring about, and would be a bit more complex than them doing it directly.

    But the truth is as well, if other companies offered better alternatives to Shapeway's "not-so-stainless not-quite-steel" they'd find people jumping ship...
    Honestly I like Shapeways - they have good customer service most of the time and are nice and easy to work with, and I really like how you can check your models before printing - but if somewhere else started offering cast pewter I'd be off to them like a shot to try it out, and if it was satisfactory, I'd end up doing most of my printing through them and just use Shapeways when I want a coloured sandstone print. And I don't think Shapeways want to lose customers like that... if they indeed listened to some of these suggestions they'd certainly get huge bonus points from me, and I'm certain I wouldn't be alone. Would certainly make them more competitive too I think.

    I really, REALLY hope they do SOMETHING about the lack of affordable grey-metals-that-are-actually-GREY, but I haven't seen anything on this post to indicate that anyone who's involved in complicated-businessy-things or material choice has actually given this a glance...
    It's not like they lack the technology to do it, judging from what they can already do. I just WISH some of them could hear this and take it on board - even if they didn't do it for two years or something, if they at least gave a sign that they had listened, and that they INTEND to eventually do it, that would be more than enough.
     
    Malwen likes this.
  13. UniverseBecoming
    UniverseBecoming Well-Known Member
    I think the main reason why we don't see changes like this very often is a phycological thing related to how upper management thinks. People in managerial positions tend to be highly conservative. Not only conservative financially but also conservative in making moves that relate to making improvements. They tend to gravitate to solid ground and don't like taking risks. These kinds of traits make good managers because those who have opposite traits can cause problems with stability over time. It's hard to convince them of a good idea because they like to keep things the way they are as much as possible.

    They do make changes but they are like sloths crawling along upsidedown VERY SLOWLYYYYYY! HAHAHA! :D While we liberals are pulling our hair out exclaiming, "For the love of God man will you speed it up!" HAHA! :D

    Speaking of nickel. What I'd like to know is why nickel has that effect. What happens on an atomic level that causes that? Interesting universe. :)
     
  14. Vannjaren
    Vannjaren Member
    Ah, that is true there - I can understand why more conservative people are chosen for managerial positions to stop businesses from taking too many unnecessary risks and losing all stability, though on the other hand, you need some innovation if you want to thrive - especially in a modern technology and creativity based sector, or so I'd think. Indeed, keeping things the way they are often has benefits, but sometimes I think they need to be reminded of the costs of stagnation - especially if someone else takes a step forward before they do!

    And argh, indeed... I think if there was a way to show them there was enough demand for something, it MIGHT help in the persuasion... even thinking of if it would be feasible and productive to start up a petition - as a way of showing them that there IS a demand for an alternative to their anything-but-stainless, not-quite-steel other than silver... if they could see a representation of numbers of people wanting this, it might draw their attention to it? Just a thought I'm mulling over, it may be pointless but it's something to consider I guess.

    And ah, from what I know as a medical student, metals causing allergies are generally more reactive than those that do not, and the last I knew on the theory of nickel allergies was that nickel and nickel salts were slightly soluble in sweat - so that small amounts of the nickel/nickel salts could dissolve in the skin, and form nickel ions which would then produce the irritation responsible for the contact dermatitis. This current theory also explains why gold etc. does not tend to cause allergies, as it is not soluble in sweat and is a much more chemically inert metal (also why gold can be found pure rather than in ores, its innate inertness has a significant role in that. I don't like how gold looks though, ha... so inert or not, I don't want it for making jewellery, never mind the price tag! 8'D)
     
  15. draw
    draw Well-Known Member
    The material selection menu is already large. Historically that seems to have been the way to increase revenues but at some point it begins to put more strains on the internal tracking systems, not to mention shop owner maintenance and refreshes of product pages. Adding different stainless filler options or adding pewter as a cast metal option are all good ideas but they might come at a cost. And of course such issues extend to manufacturing partners as well in terms of their supplied materials, employees, and having the ability to expand production lines.

    At some point it might make some sense to get rid of existing materials and replace them with improved ones. For example that premium plastic process. Do many people actually utilize that? I'd rather see that replaced HP plastic or something more Earth shattering.
     
  16. Vannjaren
    Vannjaren Member
    It is true that the material selection menu is fairly decent - although as you say there is a point where adding further materials is of limited benefit, which is fully understandable.

    As you say - getting rid of some materials and replacing them with others is more practical - that was sort of what I was implying here - to come up with a replacement for the bronze-infused "stainless" steel, since the finish on it is poor and does not come out as desired.
    As others have said above - sometimes it looks alright, other times it looks really rather bad and for someone who is selling products in this material, for many of them to come out substandard and be returned isn't good for anyone's business - shapeways included.

    Also the Nickel steel is useless for any wearable products due to the issue with contact dermatitis (and for those who already HAVE dermatitis reactions towards Nickel, anything that is handled and not just worn can be an issue) - so alternatively, perhaps this material could be removed and replaced with one of the suggestions?

    Neither Nickel steel(dermatitis) nor stainless steel(because of the colour issue and rusting) are good finishes at present, so these materials could certainly be replaced with something else. Even a small increase in price would be worth it for products which are actually usable and which have a good and more reliable finish rather than causing skin reactions or rusting or looking entirely the wrong colour on frequent occasions.

    Perhaps that would take time, perhaps only some of the options would be feasible in practise... but it would be highly appreciated if the issue could at least be CONSIDERED.
     
  17. mkroeker
    mkroeker Well-Known Member
    You seem to be looking at this from the perspective of a jeweler, there are people using the "steel" for tools, door handles and other mechanical parts. Shapeways used to recommend it for jewelry when it was the only metal they had, and the "stainless" misnomer for the variable-color base material is a remnant of that period.
     
  18. UniverseBecoming
    UniverseBecoming Well-Known Member
    Interesting about nickel soluble in sweat. Thanks for your thoughts on that.

    I think the Exone patent for the process expired years ago. So, one could develop one's own 3D printing equipment based on the patent and then offer a printing service, but offer the kinds of materials that people are wanting. You snooze you lose. The history of the rust belt is a good example of the end result of too much conservatism.