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Some time a model rejected for no real reason... [message #74645] Thu, 12 September 2013 10:17 UTC Go to next message
avatar Vidalcris  is currently offline Vidalcris
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Thats the biggest problem on Shapeways in my opinion.
Your services are not regular for a peny Rolling Eyes Twisted Evil

I hope u can make something to explain them that they can't say me that my models are rejected when i already sold this particular model a lot of time !!!
The more funny in this is that i just have to reupload the same model again and by the way 90% of the time you print it without any problem ...

I already know your answer but i dont agree, this is a non-sense... You print a model , then you reject it, then without any modification you print it again and again and again ... then you reject it !! then without modification you print it again and again !!

Each time you reject a model the mistake is the same. By the way if you mesure an edge on a model you can always find a smaller value if you take your mesure more on the top of the edge ! so thats easy to reject any model ...

I think that a system to confirm models and make them directly printable without verification would be awesome !


Re: Some time a model rejected for no real reason... [message #74650 is a reply to message #74645 ] Thu, 12 September 2013 10:59 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar bartv  is currently offline bartv
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Hi Vidalcris,

if you have printed your model successfully several times before, then we should accept it - just contact service@shapeways.com about it. In some cases though, we find that model has a high failure rate and in such cases we may still decide to stop producing it..

Bart


Community Manager Europe | Shapeways
Re: Some time a model rejected for no real reason... [message #74656 is a reply to message #74650 ] Thu, 12 September 2013 11:17 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar Vidalcris  is currently offline Vidalcris
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Ok but i dont think that a round spike can be a failure ... So how can this happen ?

My suggestion stay the same :
I think that a system to confirm models and make them directly printable without verification would be awesome !

This is a smoothed new models that you asked me to make in order to print it again :
index.php?t=getfile&id=40681&private=0

And the actual printed model before, without any smoothing on the model :
https://images1.sw-cdn.net/model/picture/674x501_771927_663258_1377710555.jpg

[Updated on: Thu, 12 September 2013 11:18 UTC]


Re: Some time a model rejected for no real reason... [message #74657 is a reply to message #74656 ] Thu, 12 September 2013 11:20 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar bartv  is currently offline bartv
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Sorry, I don't have the right information to discuss this particular case here. Please talk to customer service - then can help!

Bart


Community Manager Europe | Shapeways
Re: Some time a model rejected for no real reason... [message #74659 is a reply to message #74657 ] Thu, 12 September 2013 11:25 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar Vidalcris  is currently offline Vidalcris
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I can speak hours with them ... the problem will be the same another day !
I cant loose hours everyday to speak about non-sense ...

This is my suggestion one more time :
I think that a system to confirm models and make them directly printable without verification would be awesome !


Re: Some time a model rejected for no real reason... [message #74665 is a reply to message #74645 ] Thu, 12 September 2013 13:04 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar Youknowwho4eva  is currently offline Youknowwho4eva
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Of course it'd be awesome to have the verification be completely automated. But there are times when an item passes every guideline and still has printing issues. It appears to me that your first model should have been rejected. Being smooth or not. Once the thickness goes below 2mm, it becomes a detail. Minimum detail for sandstone is .4mm. A detail shouldn't be taller than it's width, so once under 2mm your angle shouldn't be less than 45 degrees. The hair on the printed model, and on the rejected model appear to be below 45 degrees. In my opinion, an automated system would have failed both.


I learned a long time ago the wisest thing I can do is be on my own side, be an advocate for myself and others like me. -Maya Angelou
michael@shapeways.com Community Advocate
Re: Some time a model rejected for no real reason... [message #74666 is a reply to message #74665 ] Thu, 12 September 2013 13:13 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar Vidalcris  is currently offline Vidalcris
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I'm not speaking about automated system but just if you already printed something correctly add a value to the models to know that u dont have to verify it again Smile

About the 45° this is the first time someone understand what i'm speaking about and i have to say you a big thanks !! Razz
Changing all angle on this model to 45° is just ... a lot of work and i dont have an automated system to verify anything ...

An old suggestion that i emailed was to use a system like Sculpteo. We can see directly if the model got too thin parts and then make modification accordingly.


Re: Some time a model rejected for no real reason... [message #74668 is a reply to message #74645 ] Thu, 12 September 2013 13:36 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar Youknowwho4eva  is currently offline Youknowwho4eva
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As Bart mentioned, we do have a previously printed flag. So once checked, it's not manually checked if printed in the same material again. But, as Bart also mentioned, there are occasions where something that gets printed that shouldn't have, or even that should be printable but for some reason has a high failure rate in printing, finishing, and/or shipping.

I can understand your frustration with getting a model to be 45 degrees or greater, especially an organic sculpture. But this is to help prevent damage, especially from handling and shipping. In Sandstones green stage, it is very fragile. After applying the super glue like coating, it's stronger, but it still has to survive UPS.

We are aware of competitive services and the tools they provide. That's not my department so I don't know much more than that.


I learned a long time ago the wisest thing I can do is be on my own side, be an advocate for myself and others like me. -Maya Angelou
michael@shapeways.com Community Advocate
Re: Some time a model rejected for no real reason... [message #74669 is a reply to message #74668 ] Thu, 12 September 2013 13:52 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar Vidalcris  is currently offline Vidalcris
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Bart was not talking about the flag , But anyway Wink
So that mean you printed it and then it was broken ? ^^
But where ?
This is not a problem if a spike is round as i said.
And i dont understand which other parts can be a problem on this particular model ...

Everyone can understand that a spike is round because of shipping or anything, this is not even a reason to cancel an order from a customer because they are aware of this sort of problems...

Under 45° or not there is always a very small amount of material at the top of the edge.
And i know because i already received more than 50 3D printed models what a Zcorp 3D printer can do ...


Re: Some time a model rejected for no real reason... [message #74672 is a reply to message #74669 ] Thu, 12 September 2013 16:05 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar Vidalcris  is currently offline Vidalcris
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And i have to add :

You said "Being smooth or not." but i think that you will have no problem to understand that the edge is a lot thinner on a normal 90° edge without smoothing than on my last smoothed model ... By the way when i smooth an edge there is no more edge Wink And when you say 45° you are speaking about an edge.

So please i like shapeways a lot and i'm not using "Non-Sense" for nothing ... I'm mechanical technician too and mechanical designer so maybe my english is far from perfect but i know exactly what i am talking about !

So now explain me why u will accept a non smoothed 45° Edge and reject a smoothed 30° one where the final product will be a lot more solid than the 45° non smoothed ?


Re: Some time a model rejected for no real reason... [message #74677 is a reply to message #74645 ] Thu, 12 September 2013 16:56 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar Youknowwho4eva  is currently offline Youknowwho4eva
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I can understand your confusion. The angle I'm referring to is the one shown in this image. I just drew lines on your image to get a rough angle. This angle here must be 45 degrees or greater when the thickness is under 2mm. As you can see the rough estimate of the angle is 36 degrees.
index.php?t=getfile&id=40767&private=0

  • Attachment: angle.jpg
    (Size: 350.52KB, Downloaded 147 time(s))


I learned a long time ago the wisest thing I can do is be on my own side, be an advocate for myself and others like me. -Maya Angelou
michael@shapeways.com Community Advocate
Re: Some time a model rejected for no real reason... [message #74679 is a reply to message #74677 ] Thu, 12 September 2013 17:21 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar Vidalcris  is currently offline Vidalcris
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I'm explaining to you that i'm mechanical designer and you come back eplaining me what is an angle ???
I'm sorry but there is absolutely no confusion for me ... are you kidding me ?

You say that u can print the Green part but not my smoothed spike ?? this is a joke, just take a look at my picture ...
index.php?t=getfile&id=40771&private=0

  • Attachment: spike.jpg
    (Size: 80.04KB, Downloaded 140 time(s))

[Updated on: Thu, 12 September 2013 17:24 UTC]


Re: Some time a model rejected for no real reason... [message #74680 is a reply to message #74645 ] Thu, 12 September 2013 18:10 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar Youknowwho4eva  is currently offline Youknowwho4eva
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Ok, that was confusion on my part. I thought that you were referring to your printed piece having the hair be more square, where your new model is rounded all over. Where you are directly referring to just the ends of the hair coming to a round rather than a point.

Also in my previous post I misspoke. The angle as measured should be 90 degrees (45 degrees on each side) when the walls are under 2mm.

By the rules for details, the tip would have to look like the drawn triangle.

index.php?t=getfile&id=40774&private=0

  • Attachment: angle.jpg
    (Size: 238.94KB, Downloaded 123 time(s))


I learned a long time ago the wisest thing I can do is be on my own side, be an advocate for myself and others like me. -Maya Angelou
michael@shapeways.com Community Advocate
Re: Some time a model rejected for no real reason... [message #74682 is a reply to message #74680 ] Thu, 12 September 2013 18:24 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar Vidalcris  is currently offline Vidalcris
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I can make one more time the same picture with the spike of the 90° this is exactly the same story i'm sorry... i mean there is less material on the 90° spike than on the smoothed one.

If what you say on your last message is the new rule i have to say that Sculpteo is way better than your service to make spikes ... and i'm really sad to say that :'(


Re: Some time a model rejected for no real reason... [message #74693 is a reply to message #74682 ] Thu, 12 September 2013 21:00 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar stonysmith  is currently offline stonysmith
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There's quite a long thread here https://www.shapeways.com/forum/index.php?t=msg&th=12976 &prevloaded=1&&start=0 about rejections. If you skip over some of the side discussions, you can get a better picture of the process that kicks in when a model fails to print.

Regardless of how carefully (we) design models, there are some that are just plain problematic. Shapeways goes to quite long lengths (possibly more than they should) to achieve successful prints. A part of their process is to track the failure rate for how many times a particular model has issues. It's a better determination than "okay it printed once.. allow it always" .. but yes, it can be frustrating.

As I've expressed elsewhere, there is a choice: Shapeways can jack up the design rules such that NOTHING can be less 5mm thick and thereby ensure that there is 100% repeatablity, (they could print solid cubes/spheres with no detail all day long) or they can continue to let us push the limits of this technology - we must be patient with the process if desire to see what the limits can be.

NOTE: I say this from my own frustrations with rejections, not to denigrate the particular issue @Vidalcris is having. Trust me.. I've pushed the design rules as hard as i possibly can, and I'm a bit surprised that Shapeways lets me keep doing so, but glad they still put up with me. <GRIN>


Patience, Persistance, Politeness - the 3Ps will help us get us to Perfect Printed Products
Re: Some time a model rejected for no real reason... [message #74695 is a reply to message #74693 ] Thu, 12 September 2013 21:15 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar Vidalcris  is currently offline Vidalcris
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Thanks a lot for your message Stonysmith Smile

The problem for me is that i'm speaking about a rejection for a spike, not for a small part that can make the model breaking in two parts during the process ...

The real choice from Shapeways is to know if they want to make money Wink This is why the rules are not so hard.
Btw if the minimum thickness allowed was 5mm without anything under 90° then no one will use Shapeways...


Re: Some time a model rejected for no real reason... [message #74705 is a reply to message #74665 ] Fri, 13 September 2013 00:40 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar stannum  is currently offline stannum
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Youknowwho4eva wrote on Thu, 12 September 2013 13:04

A detail shouldn't be taller than it's width, so once under 2mm your angle shouldn't be less than 45 degrees.

An isosceles triangle of base 2mm and height 2mm (the twin sides are thus sqrt(5) or ~2.2mm) has a top angle of 2*arctan(0.5), so ~53 degrees.

   ~53deg
   /|\
  / | \~2.2
 /  |2 \
/___|___\
    2 
  (1+1)
Re: Some time a model rejected for no real reason... [message #74724 is a reply to message #74705 ] Fri, 13 September 2013 09:08 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar Vidalcris  is currently offline Vidalcris
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Thanks a lot Stannum Wink

Now i know that 53° is the minimum angle to use on a spike Razz

Can you code a plugin for C4D to remesh automatically with this parameter ? XD

haha


Re: Some time a model rejected for no real reason... [message #74736 is a reply to message #74695 ] Fri, 13 September 2013 13:36 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar stonysmith  is currently offline stonysmith
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Vidalcris wrote on Thu, 12 September 2013 21:15

a rejection for a spike, not for a small part that can make the model breaking in two parts during the process ...


Again, not to distract from the main topic, however.. the issue at times is not so much about YOUR model breaking, but what happens with that small spike if it were to come loose within the print batch?

It took me a long time to comprehend this, but that small spike, were it to break off, could go "surfing" and end up landing next to somebody else's model. It can also then cause the "print head" of the machine to "bump" as it passes over it. That means that there could then be an irregularity across the entire batch of models, not just yours. Shapeways describes this as simply "risk of destroying a batch", and it took me a very long time to comprehend that MY model could negatively affect models purchased by other buyers.

If all the models were printed by themselves, one at a time, it wouldn't be an issue. But, we see lower prices at Shapeways because they can utilize the entire volume of the printer at once, thereby saving on the costs to operate the machine.


Patience, Persistance, Politeness - the 3Ps will help us get us to Perfect Printed Products
Re: Some time a model rejected for no real reason... [message #74737 is a reply to message #74736 ] Fri, 13 September 2013 14:21 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar Vidalcris  is currently offline Vidalcris
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Ok now i really understand where is the problem Very Happy
Thanks a lot again StonySmith for your patience and your nice message !


Re: Some time a model rejected for no real reason... [message #74744 is a reply to message #74737 ] Fri, 13 September 2013 16:28 UTC Go to previous message
avatar MitchellJetten  is currently offline MitchellJetten
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I'm still looking for a grey model....

A piece of a other model broke off,, "surfed" a bit,, landed on my model and got glued together @ the next layer.
Now there is a small grey piece sticking out my train :'(

Fixed it myself, but this is something that can happen Smile


Kind regards,

Mitchell Jetten
Customer Service Coordinator
Shapeways

 
   
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