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How can I use 3-D printer to duplicate driftwood pieces? [message #73808] Wed, 28 August 2013 17:24 UTC Go to next message
avatar amorphosmios  is currently offline amorphosmios
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I had turned away from typical mold making that would inevitably destroy the original. Now with 3-D, wondered if I could scan the driftwood object and recreate to look like wood, as in resin cast pieces that look almost identical to wood.

Thanks for any help! I have been waiting a long time to find a better way!
Re: How can I use 3-D printer to duplicate driftwood pieces? [message #73824 is a reply to message #73808 ] Wed, 28 August 2013 20:28 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar mygadgetlife  is currently offline mygadgetlife
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You could start by checking out Autodesk's 123D Catch

This probably would involve a lot of work cleaning up the model to make it suitable for 3D printing, possibly refining the model in something like Blender which is another layer of complexity altogether.

Good luck!

Steven


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Re: How can I use 3-D printer to duplicate driftwood pieces? [message #73829 is a reply to message #73824 ] Wed, 28 August 2013 21:03 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar amorphosmios  is currently offline amorphosmios
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I'll check it out...thanx for the tips!

[Updated on: Wed, 28 August 2013 23:19 UTC]

Re: How can I use 3-D printer to duplicate driftwood pieces? [message #73832 is a reply to message #73829 ] Thu, 29 August 2013 00:15 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
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How big of a piece of driftwood is it?
A modest side piece of driftwood is huge (expensive) for 3d printing.

How smooth is the surface?
Soft woods tend turn into driftwood with very pronounced wood grain. Those would probably work pretty well.
Harder woods tend to be very smooth.. those might not work so well due to the inherent stepping in the process.
You may not be happy with the finish (or you may have to do some post-processing sanding)


Patience, Persistance, Politeness - the 3Ps will help us get us to Perfect Printed Products
Re: How can I use 3-D printer to duplicate driftwood pieces? [message #73881 is a reply to message #73832 ] Thu, 29 August 2013 13:44 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar amorphosmios  is currently offline amorphosmios
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I have all sizes, the smallest being about 4 inches by 1/2 inch, and relatively smooth. How expensive/time consuming would that be? Is there a table to gauge expense and time?

And do you know if there are any breakthroughs on the horizon or methodology in the works that might address the larger piece issue, if not in this medium, perhaps another? (I just got thru watching PBS show on making things lighter, smarter, cleaner and am really excited by the possibilities out there)

Even if i could eliminate the problem destruction of my original , scan the dimensions and create a mold that way....(scratchin head smiley face)
Re: How can I use 3-D printer to duplicate driftwood pieces? [message #73883 is a reply to message #73808 ] Thu, 29 August 2013 14:00 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
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If you are creating a piece to make a mold, you could make the piece hollow to reduce the material used, hence saving money. Another option would be slicing or making your model wireframe. This would require you to add material to your print but would give you a skeleton to build from.


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Re: How can I use 3-D printer to duplicate driftwood pieces? [message #73888 is a reply to message #73883 ] Thu, 29 August 2013 14:40 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
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Youknowwho4eva wrote on Thu, 29 August 2013 14:00

If you are creating a piece to make a mold, you could make the piece hollow to reduce the material used, hence saving money. Another option would be slicing or making your model wireframe. This would require you to add material to your print but would give you a skeleton to build from.



Ok..I'm an absolute new to this, so are you saying I could scan the original, and then tweek the dimensions internally to create a hollow form? By doing that could I inlay the wire frame aspect in the design to support the shell?

Do you know any other modelers who are doing this with wood peices, or a tutorial specific to this question?

Is it out of the question to do large pieces, even with a hollow form? The one I most want to do is probably 3'x8" with lots of voids thruout the structure.
Re: How can I use 3-D printer to duplicate driftwood pieces? [message #73893 is a reply to message #73888 ] Thu, 29 August 2013 14:55 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
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Ok..I'm an absolute new to this, so are you saying I could scan the original, and then tweek the dimensions internally to create a hollow form? By doing that could I inlay the wire frame aspect in the design to support the shell?

Yes, there are a few different programs you can use to take a 3D scan (123D catch for instance saves an OBJ file) and create a hollow model. You do need an escape hole for hollow models, you can see the rules for that in the material guidelines. You can use the wireframe or sliced model as a support shell if you want, but the wall thickness rules for models should be sufficient support.

Do you know any other modelers who are doing this with wood peices, or a tutorial specific to this question?

I do not, but if you're looking for someone to help you with the models, the modeler for hire section, and the modeler needed sections are good places to start.

Is it out of the question to do large pieces, even with a hollow form? The one I most want to do is probably 3'x8" with lots of voids thruout the structure.

The largest available bounding box is for WSF at 650x350x550mm. Which diagonally is 3-1/4'. So it is possible. But being that large will be pricey.


I learned a long time ago the wisest thing I can do is be on my own side, be an advocate for myself and others like me. -Maya Angelou
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Re: How can I use 3-D printer to duplicate driftwood pieces? [message #73904 is a reply to message #73893 ] Thu, 29 August 2013 15:27 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
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About how pricey is pricey?
Re: How can I use 3-D printer to duplicate driftwood pieces? [message #73907 is a reply to message #73808 ] Thu, 29 August 2013 15:43 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
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A solid 3' x 8" x 8" beam would cost just under $53,000. If I hollow it to 4mm thick it would be just under $4,300


I learned a long time ago the wisest thing I can do is be on my own side, be an advocate for myself and others like me. -Maya Angelou
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Re: How can I use 3-D printer to duplicate driftwood pieces? [message #73909 is a reply to message #73907 ] Thu, 29 August 2013 16:52 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
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Wow..better than ice water!! Any chance costs will come down up the road? Any other techniques I'm not aware of?
Re: How can I use 3-D printer to duplicate driftwood pieces? [message #73910 is a reply to message #73808 ] Thu, 29 August 2013 16:57 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
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Prices will go down as supply catches up with demand. A less expensive method would be to use 123D make as intended. And either have the pieces cut for you, or as I did cut them out yourself. I used hot glue as filler on my cardboard.


I learned a long time ago the wisest thing I can do is be on my own side, be an advocate for myself and others like me. -Maya Angelou
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Re: How can I use 3-D printer to duplicate driftwood pieces? [message #73913 is a reply to message #73910 ] Thu, 29 August 2013 17:37 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar amorphosmios  is currently offline amorphosmios
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Do you think I should look for a class in this or does 123 D provide graspable to the mere mortal tutorial or other. Do you think I can do this if I get the hang of it for a moderate amount. I have been thwarted by most mediums up til now, and really jonesin to make something work. Have some gorgeous peices of wood...truly amazing. Literally one of a kind.....til i figger somethin out...

Thank you for all your help..I really appreciate it!
Re: How can I use 3-D printer to duplicate driftwood pieces? [message #73924 is a reply to message #73913 ] Thu, 29 August 2013 20:10 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
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Have you thought of making your molds from gelatin? The benefit would be that you could dissolve away any gelatin that became trapped in the crevices by simply soaking in water. Once dry, it would be as though it had been untouched. Also, gelatin is kind of stretchy so you could pull it off the original without having to cut it out.

You would then make a master duplicate in something like polyester or polyurethane or low melting temperature wax using the gelatin mold and then make a silicone production mold from that.

You can scan and 3D print a mold or a master duplicate to make molds from, but 3D printing, unless you have your own machines, is currently too expensive for large items, as Mike pointed out. If you do go with the 3D printing route, I would recommend using Sculptris, since it's more adept at handling organic type shapes. Also too, a really detailed scan is going to have millions of polygons, so you'll want software that can handle the data.










It always was. It always was because somethingness cannot spawn from nothingness. And in the was of the past there is the forever of the now. Only now. Only now and nothing new, for anything new would add to the infinite, yet there can only be one infinite. Only one. The universe is only becoming something new in the delusion of our minds. This delusion that makes life worth living in our perceived universe becoming.
Re: How can I use 3-D printer to duplicate driftwood pieces? [message #73931 is a reply to message #73924 ] Thu, 29 August 2013 21:56 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
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NO..I have never even heard of that possibility. Sounds like it could really work tho. Is there any place I could get a step by step of what you are talking about?

I'm kind of a visual learner.
Re: How can I use 3-D printer to duplicate driftwood pieces? [message #73933 is a reply to message #73931 ] Fri, 30 August 2013 00:32 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
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No, I don't have further info on this as I've never used the method. I simply know that it can be used to make molds and that it is also soluble in water. Smile






It always was. It always was because somethingness cannot spawn from nothingness. And in the was of the past there is the forever of the now. Only now. Only now and nothing new, for anything new would add to the infinite, yet there can only be one infinite. Only one. The universe is only becoming something new in the delusion of our minds. This delusion that makes life worth living in our perceived universe becoming.
Re: How can I use 3-D printer to duplicate driftwood pieces? [message #73935 is a reply to message #73933 ] Fri, 30 August 2013 01:50 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
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Sorry I couldn't chime in earlier.. 4 inches by 1/2 inch and hollow would be about $10.
Obviously. the larger size (36"x8"x8") would be "a bit more".
http://stonysmith.com/wired/VolumeEstimator.asp?L=100&W= 12&H=12&T=1


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Re: How can I use 3-D printer to duplicate driftwood pieces? [message #73943 is a reply to message #73931 ] Fri, 30 August 2013 07:59 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
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amorphosmios wrote on Thu, 29 August 2013 21:56

NO..I have never even heard of that possibility. Sounds like it could really work tho. Is there any place I could get a step by step of what you are talking about?

I'm kind of a visual learner.


Yeah I'm visual learner myself!

I was thinking later on it and remembered a recipe that included glycerin, which would most likely work better than plain gelatin, here's something similar to what I remembered. Each of those ingredients should be water soluble.

As I'm writing this I remember a YouTube video too, let me see if I can find that. Oh well I can't find it cuz it was years ago, but take a look at some of the vids in this search.

Oh! Another method I just remembered too is, there is another material similar to gelatin called agar agar. Here's a video showing how it can be used. The drawback is, it's not as readily soluble in water, but it is soluble in boiling water. See this page for information about the solubility of agar agar.






It always was. It always was because somethingness cannot spawn from nothingness. And in the was of the past there is the forever of the now. Only now. Only now and nothing new, for anything new would add to the infinite, yet there can only be one infinite. Only one. The universe is only becoming something new in the delusion of our minds. This delusion that makes life worth living in our perceived universe becoming.
Re: How can I use 3-D printer to duplicate driftwood pieces? [message #73953 is a reply to message #73943 ] Fri, 30 August 2013 13:36 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
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Wonder if the glycerin is sort of a releasing agent for another substance?? I know it is very slick...I think boiling water would harm the original...but thanks for the ideas. That PBS show on all those fantastic products being created that defy the laws of physics had me wondering why these problems with molds haven't been resolved. But maybe they have and I haven't been looking in the right place. I am really enjoying this community! You guys act like you really want to see a person find solutions. Thanx for hanging in there with me!

[Updated on: Fri, 30 August 2013 13:43 UTC]

Re: How can I use 3-D printer to duplicate driftwood pieces? [message #73955 is a reply to message #73808 ] Fri, 30 August 2013 13:44 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
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Quote:

I had turned away from typical mold making that would inevitably destroy the original.

What kind of molds were you making? How were they destroying the original? Have you tried silcon molds?
Re: How can I use 3-D printer to duplicate driftwood pieces? [message #73956 is a reply to message #73935 ] Fri, 30 August 2013 13:52 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
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Do you know what the smaller one solid would cost? And the larger size is actually more like 3'x15"x8". If a person had their own printer, how much cheaper could they do it for?
Re: How can I use 3-D printer to duplicate driftwood pieces? [message #73959 is a reply to message #73955 ] Fri, 30 August 2013 14:03 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
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AmLachDesigns wrote on Fri, 30 August 2013 13:44

Quote:

I had turned away from typical mold making that would inevitably destroy the original.

What kind of molds were you making? How were they destroying the original? Have you tried silcon molds?


It's been a couple of years since I looked into this, trying to remember what the deal was with silicon molds. i think either the expense or I just couldn't wrap my head around how to do it at the time. My piece had lots of voids in it, and I think I was told that the silicon would either not go into them adequately or not be able to be removed completely afterwards...

[Updated on: Fri, 30 August 2013 14:26 UTC]

Re: How can I use 3-D printer to duplicate driftwood pieces? [message #73961 is a reply to message #73881 ] Fri, 30 August 2013 14:43 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
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Quote:

I have all sizes, the smallest being about 4 inches by 1/2 inch, and relatively smooth.


A cylinder of 10cm length and 1.25 cm diam has a volume of about 12.5 cm3, which in wsf would cost about 1.5 + 12.5*1.4 = 19 USD
Re: How can I use 3-D printer to duplicate driftwood pieces? [message #73962 is a reply to message #73956 ] Fri, 30 August 2013 14:59 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
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amorphosmios wrote on Fri, 30 August 2013 13:52

Do you know what the smaller one solid would cost? And the larger size is actually more like 3'x15"x8". If a person had their own printer, how much cheaper could they do it for?


On my volume estimator.. just set the thickness to 0 to see the price as a solid:
http://stonysmith.com/wired/VolumeEstimator.asp?L=100&W= 12&H=12&T=0

When you say "had their own printer".. do you mean the $500,000 printer that Shapeways uses, or some home printer that costs $1500?
The trouble with the home printers is that the surface details are VERY rough, and you often have a total build space of less than 8" in any one direction.

====
But, if it was a solid block, your item at 36x15x8 inches would require 70,690 cm3 of material.
A 1kg spool of 1.75mm filament is ~330m of material. That's 790 cm3 of plastic.
So, you'd need 90 spools of filament, and they cost $30 each.

I suspect your item is no where near a solid block, so it be more like 1/4 or 1/8th that volume. But it's still a LOT of plastic, not to count the fact that RepRap style printers are slowwwwww. You'd likely be looking at weeks of printing time.


Patience, Persistance, Politeness - the 3Ps will help us get us to Perfect Printed Products
Re: How can I use 3-D printer to duplicate driftwood pieces? [message #73963 is a reply to message #73808 ] Fri, 30 August 2013 15:36 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
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This book seems to have a section on molding driftwood. It's an old book but maybe you can find it in a library.

http://www.amazon.com/The-Breakthrough-Habitat-Exhibit-Manua l/dp/0925245070
Re: How can I use 3-D printer to duplicate driftwood pieces? [message #73969 is a reply to message #73963 ] Fri, 30 August 2013 17:30 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
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MrNib wrote on Fri, 30 August 2013 15:36

This book seems to have a section on molding driftwood. It's an old book but maybe you can find it in a library.

http://www.amazon.com/The-Breakthrough-Habitat-Exhibit-Manua l/dp/0925245070


I found the book on Amazon..no details..saw another copy at a woodworking site. Have you experience with this book personally? I'm not able to open it anywhere to see what it has to say on the subject.
Re: How can I use 3-D printer to duplicate driftwood pieces? [message #73972 is a reply to message #73969 ] Fri, 30 August 2013 18:09 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
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I saw a post on a taxidermy site that said it had 5 or 6 pages covering this issue but I have never seen the book. That's why I recommended finding it in a library rather than purchasing it.

http://www.taxidermy.net/forums/MoldingArticles/99FD0ABA13.h tml

Have you considered doing this with a subtractive CNC process instead, perhaps using cheap foam? There should be lots of companies that could provide such a service, particularly those that work with prop companies to create masters or molds.

Another idea is to try to find a company that does 3D prints using sugar as the build material. I would imagine using sugar would be a lot cheaper than plastics and maybe they can do larger objects. Also you could create a mold around the sugar print, dissolve the sugar out of the mold after it is dry using water, and then form your fake driftwood with a casting material.

If you search on the web you can also find people that soak real wood in solutions overnight to get the look of driftwood. Maybe you could start with wood that's been machined to specific shapes and then process them chemically to get the right look.

Good luck!

Re: How can I use 3-D printer to duplicate driftwood pieces? [message #73979 is a reply to message #73972 ] Fri, 30 August 2013 22:23 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
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Could you elaborate on the subtractive CNC using cheap foam idea? Sounds interesting...


....whilst swimming this AM, a flash came across my screen~~

What about to perhaps make a 3 D mold with the printer...and taking it from there for finishing the process, using resin to replicate the wood grain. I have a friend who has bottle stops originally made in wood replcated in China. Not quite sure of the process, but not entertaining that idea..just that's what he does. Anyway, the resin really looks like wood. I know someone who actually bought a resin piece thinking it was carved wood, and paid a pretty dime for it. But so far not sure of how that look was achieved.

[Updated on: Fri, 30 August 2013 22:54 UTC]

Re: How can I use 3-D printer to duplicate driftwood pieces? [message #73981 is a reply to message #73979 ] Sat, 31 August 2013 00:23 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
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CNC machining uses a milti-axis milling machine to carve material from foam, plastic, wood, metal, whatever. In contrast 3D printing is additive. Here's a quick example I found on the web.

http://dinorentosstudios.com/Custom-Foam-Props-Gallery.html

I also have some wall hangings that are made using fake wood. They are probably some type of foam resin that was cast in a mold and are much lighter than real wood. I'm not sure what methods would give you an actual realistic grain on the surface of your fake driftwood. It seems like that's the biggest pain in your quest. You might need to create that effect with hand tools in the mold or create it with artistic application of paints and stains on the casting. Personally I'd rather try to find some driftwood on a beach. What exactly do you do with your simulated driftwood pieces? Use them in museum displays? Hang them on your wall?

[Updated on: Sat, 31 August 2013 00:25 UTC]

Re: How can I use 3-D printer to duplicate driftwood pieces? [message #73984 is a reply to message #73981 ] Sat, 31 August 2013 05:56 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
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I didn't have time to read the rest of the comments, so disregard if someone already mentioned this. Very Happy

Another thing that could be done is to MAKE driftwood. HAHAHA! Very Happy You'd just get a cement mixer, throw some wood, gravel, sand, water and salt in there and then let it tumble for a few days. Then you'd treat it with an Oxyclean solution to instantly turn it gray. Very Happy

Did you ever say what you're actually wanting to do with this fake driftwood once you have it made or duplicated from the originals?

The reason you're getting a good response on this thread is, just about everyone here in the forum is a maker. We love to design and make stuff! Very Happy Sounds like you're a maker too! Very Happy You might get an even better response by posting something like this in the Work In Progress part of the forum, since lots of people subscribe to that.






It always was. It always was because somethingness cannot spawn from nothingness. And in the was of the past there is the forever of the now. Only now. Only now and nothing new, for anything new would add to the infinite, yet there can only be one infinite. Only one. The universe is only becoming something new in the delusion of our minds. This delusion that makes life worth living in our perceived universe becoming.
Re: How can I use 3-D printer to duplicate driftwood pieces? [message #73992 is a reply to message #73981 ] Sat, 31 August 2013 13:36 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
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MrNib, I really appreciate you taking the time to explain all these things, and going out of your way like you do. Looks like the foam is definately the way to create volume, from the link you sent.

In answer to the maker question, I'm a wanna be. I actually am more of a discoverer of already formed art. I must have made a pact with the Divine Architect of nature, because I find the driftwood in amazing forms. I have done this since i was quite young, so have a collection by now. I also am a landscaper, and one of the pieces I mentioned before, the 3'x 15"x 8" I wanted to replicate for distribution if I could do it. I thought it would be gorgeous in a rock garden. It is very stylized looking, with many voids, but is distinctly a "Blackbird Singing"..(in the Dead of Night)...as the song goes.

I thought if I could replicate it in resin or other it would stand up better to the elements. Of course as it is I only have one of a kind to display. It very well may turn into a museum, maybe I can charge an admission somewhere down the line.

On the subject of Oxyclean to grey out new wood, I was aware of bleach for that, but thought it might be too drying. Is that pretty much the same thing or less of a desicant?


So I thank all of you for being gentle with me as such an obvious newbie on this subject. I'll hang with you guys as long as you'll let me!

[Updated on: Sat, 31 August 2013 17:27 UTC]

Re: How can I use 3-D printer to duplicate driftwood pieces? [message #74081 is a reply to message #73992 ] Tue, 03 September 2013 00:50 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
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I'm not sure of the exact chemical reaction or whether a desiccant effect would occur, all I know about it is an actual experience case. I had just built a new redwood fence at my house and there was some spots that were discolored with tire marks from being run over by a forklift that I wanted to try to clean off. So I mixed up a batch of Oxiclean with water and sprayed it on with a hand can. To my horror that whole area that I sprayed turned to a 100 year old gray in under 15 seconds! Consequently, I had to spend a few hours with a belt sander to get the area back to looking like new wood. HAHA! Razz






It always was. It always was because somethingness cannot spawn from nothingness. And in the was of the past there is the forever of the now. Only now. Only now and nothing new, for anything new would add to the infinite, yet there can only be one infinite. Only one. The universe is only becoming something new in the delusion of our minds. This delusion that makes life worth living in our perceived universe becoming.
Re: How can I use 3-D printer to duplicate driftwood pieces? [message #74083 is a reply to message #73808 ] Tue, 03 September 2013 01:09 UTC Go to previous message
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http://www.craftiments.com/2012/06/diy-driftwood-tutorial.ht ml

 
   
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