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Re: Thin Walls [message #31933 is a reply to message #31930 ] Mon, 01 August 2011 20:14 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar stop4stuff  is currently offline stop4stuff
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Uncookedtrout, it's not just an issue of what we, as customers, want with wall thickness, there is aso a physical print consideration. A few examples; WSF has a 0.7mm wall thickness because much thinner has the possibility of breaking off during the print process and ruining the whole print run. Stainless steel is printed as a steel powder bound together with an organic binder, the part has to be handled and cleaned before it is infused with bronze. The thinner the part, the less likehood it has of survivng.

You could contact Sapeways direct via the contact link at the very top of the page to see if they would be prepared to go with your idea, they've entertained thin/small parts in the past with the detail materials.

Re: Thin Walls [message #31935 is a reply to message #31933 ] Mon, 01 August 2011 20:30 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar dynath  is currently offline dynath
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Actually uncookedtrout this has been answered before but not in a definitive yes or no terms. From the responses i'd say the answer is actually No, shapeways cannot print items in exception to the wall thickness policy. A lot of people debate what actually the limitations are for but its a mixture of quality, printer limitations, worker limitations, and general safety at issue.
Quality clearly degrades below a certain detail size but also a part breaking off your model can damage other models printed to different specificaitons.
As pointed out before printers can't actually print below a certain point, this goes beyond just detail loss but actually results in entirely missing structures which may cause items to crumble or warp.
Again items of small size present problems human workers can only do so much to save pieces which are printed to thin, handling and washing can cause damage and each time they destroy the piece they have to start over wasting their time and materials.
I've read about 3d printers breaking when they get clogged by small items. To the point that they've caught on fire because of clogs. Its rare but it can happen. breakage is pretty common when dealling with machines that are abused outside of their capable perameters.


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Re: Thin Walls [message #33398 is a reply to message #7408 ] Fri, 26 August 2011 20:29 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar matt_atknsn  is currently offline matt_atknsn
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Hi,

Replied to this thread instead of a new post, to find out if I understand the concept of thin walls directly: any measurement in any axis/dimension/XYZ that is more than the minimum wall thickness is a 'wall', otherwise it'll be treated as a 'detail'... did I get it right?

Please consider the attached/below screenshot of a model battleship to be done using Frosted Ultra Detail (minimum wall thickness of 0.3mm)
http://www.shapeways.com/model/318339/french_navy_battleship _pack_1.html

index.php?t=getfile&id=10766&private=0

A. Red:
1. the first level, extruded from the ship's hull is around 0.6mm x 0.4mm x 0.2mm... therefore a wall if I understand correctly?
2. The next level would be like a dagger/cross, with each cube at 0.11mm; thus whole cross structure is 0.33mm x 0.33mm x 0.22mm. Is it considered a wall (if measured from the front cube face to the rear cube's face) or detail if the smaller cubes are considered?

B. Yellow
1. level 1 is a wall, certainly level two even if it's just 0.1mm, correct?
2. level 3: each 'box' is 0.11mm x 0.2mm x 0.15mm; intentionally designed for the gap to fuse upon printing... a detail then?

C. Green
It's a 0.11mm diameter, 0.15mm tall cylinder stuck to the side... detail yes? Unrelated, but will it have any problem printing like being 'too small'?

The model will probably fail the process due to numerous 'thin walls', just wanted to confirm that I get the concept right this time before continuing...

Cheers!

Re: Thin Walls [message #33431 is a reply to message #33398 ] Sat, 27 August 2011 13:18 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar stonysmith  is currently offline stonysmith
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First: I have from time to time emailed Customer Service (service@shapeways.com) to request a "Thin Walls Check", on a model which they have done gladly. I do try to keep the number of those requests to a minimum, so as not to overload them with extra (unpaid) work.

Second: I'll try here to give you my (personal) perspective of "wall" versus "detail". I do wonder if some of your parts are going to have difficulties. I may be completely wrong, but I think all three areas you've hilighted will pass. I have a bit more concern about the post that is sticking up just above the green area, and the two horizontal posts to the right of that. How big around are those posts?

What has worked for me is this analogy: Rivets along a surface are Details. Wires/Ropes/HandRails attached to "anything" are Walls.

In mathmatical terms: ANY open plane (ignoring the edges) must meet the wall thickness (WT) rule if its distance to a supporting peice is greater than WT.

=====

Your models look to be some extremely nice work, I'm very impressed. My biggest concern would be your gunbarrels. If they are longer than WT, then they need to bigger around than WT.

[Updated on: Sat, 27 August 2011 13:22 UTC]


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Re: Thin Walls [message #33456 is a reply to message #33431 ] Sat, 27 August 2011 23:24 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar matt_atknsn  is currently offline matt_atknsn
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Thanks stonysmith, much appreciated! I'll keep it mind about CS.

Indeed the vertical one will give a positive: it's 0.17mm x 0.37mm; the two horizontal ones are 0.11mm x 0.18mm up to the vertical face under them but are up to 0.58mm to the middle structure. These have been updated, but not yet uploaded: the whole model/s are being worked at, as there are structural parts less than 0.3mm (for FUD)

The gunbarrels to the right are also being worked on: 0.31mm diameter, with faux support underneath...

Thanks again and cheers! Very Happy
Re: Thin Walls [message #35337 is a reply to message #33456 ] Wed, 28 September 2011 15:46 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar cbfasi  is currently offline cbfasi
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I just got an interesting reject..

On my order the T10 x3 rejected but the T10 x6 was fine (turns out I had ordered the T10 x3 by mistake) but what makes this really interesting is the only difference is the number of T10's in the file, the rest is indentical !
Re: Thin Walls [message #35341 is a reply to message #35337 ] Wed, 28 September 2011 16:38 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar dynath  is currently offline dynath
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Wall thickness is not automated. a person actually has to press a big red reject button or something. Its often a matter of their oppinion.


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Re: Thin Walls [message #41287 is a reply to message #7408 ] Thu, 05 January 2012 22:46 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar Kaczor  is currently offline Kaczor
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Hello. It's my first post here Wink I have question - is it possible to print that kind of beams in FUD? One side is touching thick wall.
index.php?t=getfile&id=13083&private=0

  • Attachment: fud.jpg
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Re: Thin Walls [message #41308 is a reply to message #41287 ] Fri, 06 January 2012 14:41 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar stonysmith  is currently offline stonysmith
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In a word, No.

The 0.2mm on the outer side will be rejected as too thin. Make it 0.3mm and it "might" be accepted, but.. You may find that that "L" shape sticking out from the wall will crumble under the slightest handling. 0.6mm is considerably safer.


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Re: Thin Walls [message #46650 is a reply to message #7408 ] Sun, 08 April 2012 11:05 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar Heiner2  is currently offline Heiner2
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Hello there,
the 'thin wall rejection' issue is so manifold, may i add another aspect:
Models which supass a certain size, and shall be printed in WSF, must have an even bigger wall thickness. Everything with edges /sides over 12cm (or so) must be at least 1mm strong. The length parameter is applied on the longest side. Reason for the need of an even bigger wall thickness is, that the WSF starts to deform due to thermal issues.
What i am interested in is: Is the 'longest side' considered the longes continous model element, or the longest total dimension of the model?
As example a screenshot of one of my models. Its total dimensions are something like 19 x 19 x 2 cm. But as you can see, the shape is cut into pieces, which are held together with support beams of 1mm diameter. The longest edge length of the model would be well under 10 cm (approx 9cm).
How would Shapeways apply the size of model / wall thickness rule here?
Based on the overall dimensions, or based on the longest 'real' edge?
Best regards,
Heiner

index.php?t=getfile&id=15994&private=0

Re: Thin Walls [message #51997 is a reply to message #7408 ] Fri, 27 July 2012 19:35 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar cbfasi  is currently offline cbfasi
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I am still having problems withSHapeways and models that I have had many prints from before, now getting rejected after getting fixed before the last lot of prints..

http://www.shapeways.com/model/340546/1x_klingon_k22_1_5000. html


http://www.cbfasi.co.uk/Files/355872_-1.jpg
http://www.cbfasi.co.uk/Files/355872_-1.jpg

The thickness on the wings.. easy fix, but the front of the bridge... its already been printed, and its part of a curved area, the background grid is 0.5mm, changing this will make a major change to what is a scaled ship.

[Updated on: Fri, 27 July 2012 19:35 UTC]

Re: Thin Walls [message #52003 is a reply to message #51997 ] Fri, 27 July 2012 20:29 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar stonysmith  is currently offline stonysmith
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Did you ask service@shapeways.com what the reason for the (new) rejection was?


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Re: Thin Walls [message #52004 is a reply to message #52003 ] Fri, 27 July 2012 20:35 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar cbfasi  is currently offline cbfasi
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I got sent the unedited version of the image above. Thing is the previous prints of the same model are perfectly fine and the model has not changed
Re: Thin Walls [message #52006 is a reply to message #52004 ] Fri, 27 July 2012 21:58 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar stonysmith  is currently offline stonysmith
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Send it back to them and asked "What changed?" I've done this on more than one occasion. Sometimes, it's because a model is particularly troublesome while printing. It "works", but takes them 3-4 retries to get it to work.


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Re: Thin Walls [message #63748 is a reply to message #7408 ] Sun, 10 March 2013 13:48 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar NuttyMonk  is currently offline NuttyMonk
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Hi all,

been very confused with the min wall thickness issue.

To help me understand better can anyone tell me how they would go about checking this model (manually or with software) and whether it would be possible to print it in WSF or Sandstone? Any reasons for why the model could or could not be printed would be amazing.

Cheers

http://www.shapeways.com/model/964841

[Updated on: Mon, 02 June 2014 12:36 UTC]

Re: Thin Walls [message #63750 is a reply to message #63748 ] Sun, 10 March 2013 15:08 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar stonysmith  is currently offline stonysmith
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Download Netfabb Basic from www.netfabb.com. It's free.
Open the model and you'll get a big red triangular warning sign.. you've got one face that is not closed properly.

Click Repair (the red cross at the top left) and then on the 2nd tab at the right "Actions", click "Close All Holes".
Click "Apply Repair" at the bottom right - that one problem is now handled.

Then, click the purple-ish Ruler for measurements.
In the middle of the right-hand pane, select the wall-thickness tool.

Then, go about different places on your model and click. It will add a measurement at each spot you click.
Go about your model, measuring the spots that you think will be troublesome.

Overall, I'd say that your model looks good - very interesting design by the way - everything seems to be more than 3mm thick, so it should be fine to print in either FCS or WSF.


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Re: Thin Walls [message #63751 is a reply to message #63750 ] Sun, 10 March 2013 15:21 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar stonysmith  is currently offline stonysmith
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Advanced Instructions:

I thought I'd separate the two topics here slightly. Your model does have an issue of a separated overlapping shell that's not needed.

In Netfabb, select Repair.

Right click the model, and click "Select this shell" and see that it selects the main body of your model.
Right click again and select "Remove Selected Triangles" and you'll see that there are a couple of little floating meshes that are likely not a desired part of your model.

What I do is use the two steps above as exploration, looking for problem areas, and then I Undo the repair to get back to my original model unchanged.

Then: Right click the model, click "Select this Shell", and then right click again and select "Extract Selected Triangles as Part".

This pulls the main body out as a separate peice. As long as it doesn't have any missing areas, then I select "Export as STL" and write out the new model, without the little floating debris parts that the original had.

===
The other way to handle the same situation of small floating peices is to upload the model to http://cloud.meshlab.com - it will union all the peices together for you.


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Re: Thin Walls [message #64504 is a reply to message #63750 ] Wed, 20 March 2013 17:59 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar Rivka  is currently offline Rivka
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Hi Storysmith,

I thought I reply directly to you because you seem very well in the knowing about Netfabb :}. I have been using Netfabb as you said for checking and repairing when I see the very big exclamation mark. So far so good. And I also check dimensions as you said by clicking on various parts. But I really wondered is there no automatic way of checking your object. I design a lot of wired objects, quite intricate and it is a tedious job to check every part, because apparently I have a blind spot to see where the weak spots are.

How does shapeways do it? Do they like, you say see immediately the weak spot and check it.
I would assume they have an automatic system that would check if the model parts have the minimum wall thickness. But I seem not to be able to find this way in Netfabb. I would like to type in 0,75 mm and do an automatic check if there is any part with less than this dimension/wall thickness.
I have asked shapeways how they do it and also I.materialise (oeh can i name the competion 0-o) But again and again I don't get a straight answer and just refer to the basic page. I cannot believe they don't do this automatically and so it probably wouldn't be netfabb but an expensive homemade software
It makes it really frustrating to get the models back again after checking repairing like a lunatic. Also it is a shame that objects still cannot be uploaded with that rigorous check build in instead of paying shipping costs for no objects.

Thank you in advance for your effort for this short question with a lot of build up words and endings bla bla :}.

Greets Rivka
Re: Thin Walls [message #64514 is a reply to message #64504 ] Wed, 20 March 2013 19:31 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar stonysmith  is currently offline stonysmith
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Most of Shapeways rejections come from a manual check just before assembly into the "build".
This check is performed by a human, using Netfabb (or a customized version of it).
The people doing this have seen thousands of prints, and can generally spot trouble areas just by sight.

I understand that there is an automated check done at the time of upload, but the parameters on that check are VERY loose. Mostly it checks to see that the overall boundaries correct, and is any part too thin for some specific material. That's why when you upload certain models, it's ONLY available in WSF or why it's NOT available in Sandstone, etc.

But, the actual (final) geometry checks are done by a human (at this time).

Netfabb itself does not do an automated check. You can use it to manually ckeck things, but if you miss something, the production people might find that one spot you missed. There is a new program out there (referred to in another thread) that seems very interesting to me. It will give you a "heat map" of your model with coloring based upon the thicknesses.

The problem with an automated program is likely going to be that it will fail airplane wings every time they are checked. The humans know that a certain amount of "tapering" is acceptable, but the automated programs to date don't make that decision correctly.

=====
One thing to understand.. not all models are rejected BEFORE printing. Shapeways actually goes a bit overboard TRYING to make prints work, and they lose a good bit of money on prints that don't survive being taken out of the printer, or they don't survive being cleaned, no matter how careful they are.


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Re: Thin Walls [message #64516 is a reply to message #64514 ] Wed, 20 March 2013 19:50 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar Rivka  is currently offline Rivka
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Hi,

Thank you for your answer. Very clear indeed, so my eyes need to be trained more. It is just such a disappointment every time when my models are rejected (not only for to thin walls though) but alas.

The software you talk about does sound very interesting, it would be helpful with checking the model, but I understand not to see it as a perfect check.
I tried to google it because on 'another' thread is a little to vague for me with all the thousands of threads that are going on. No luck though.


Thank you again.

Greets Rivka
Re: Thin Walls [message #64519 is a reply to message #64516 ] Wed, 20 March 2013 20:28 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar stonysmith  is currently offline stonysmith
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Took me a bit to dig up the thread:
http://www.shapeways.com/forum/index.php?t=msg&&th=1 3129&goto=63205#msg_63205

Their free "Viewer" can do the measurements you need. Here is it applied to one of my models.
Anything in Cyan or Blue could lead to a rejection, including that section above the rear window that (should be) solid.
index.php?t=getfile&id=29388&private=0

  • Attachment: 3dTool.jpg
    (Size: 155.07KB, Downloaded 300 time(s))


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Re: Thin Walls [message #64521 is a reply to message #64519 ] Wed, 20 March 2013 20:37 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar Rivka  is currently offline Rivka
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Oh my Stonysmith,

you are a hero indeed!!!! Thank you very much for all that trouble, I know what a work that must have been. I will check it out asap.

many many thanks and more thanks :}
Re: Thin Walls [message #90675 is a reply to message #64521 ] Thu, 29 May 2014 13:13 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar Narada_Dan_Vantari  is currently offline Narada_Dan_Vantari
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Wow so this thread was started 4 and a half years ago and has not had a post in over a year !
And yet its still sticky lol !

So what I would like to know - now that we have the automated fixer tool for thin walls ...
is does it actually work ?
I have applied it to a number of models that were nearly okay for their wall thickness
and it seems to improve some areas
but it does not remove all the unprintable area -
so what use is it really ?
Is anyone finding that it actually makes unprintable models printable ??

When I first run the fixer and it offers me the download files
if I click the Save&Exit does it replace the uploaded file with the new 'fixed' one ?

How come some seemingly simple to fix areas are not improved by the fixer ?

Question for Shapeways - it seems that the manual tests of printability are only done at the last moment before printing.
This means waiting sometimes 2 to 3 weeks to be told an item is not printable in a particular material.
Couldn't you prioritize assessing whether a model is printable as soon as the order is received ?
How about even charging us for priority assessment - I would gladly pay $5 just find out quickly whether it will be rejected or not...

Thanks - DV


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Re: Thin Walls [message #90962 is a reply to message #90675 ] Sun, 01 June 2014 16:34 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar Sabaku_Ika  is currently offline Sabaku_Ika
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This is a very big thread and I may have missed this already being answered-- If the thin wall checker gives a model an exclamation point in a triangle instead of an X, does that mean it's risky but can still be printed/sold? Or only by the maker? Thanks.
Re: Thin Walls [message #90966 is a reply to message #90962 ] Sun, 01 June 2014 16:45 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar AmLachDesigns  is currently offline AmLachDesigns
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The Thin Wall Checker is indicative only - you can still order with the triangle + ! sign. Click on this sign to go and see where the thin parts of your model are (click on numbers 1-8).

If you do order the model, it will still be inspected by a human to see if it can be printed, so it is possible it could still be rejected.

Good luck...
Re: Thin Walls [message #93670 is a reply to message #7408 ] Wed, 09 July 2014 16:31 UTC Go to previous message
avatar natalia  is currently offline natalia
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Hey guys,

I wanted to post an update on our rejections process, named Project Caterpillar:

Read all about all the improvements we've made over the past six months here.

It's worth a read since we've done SO MUCH, but here's the relevant section about Wall Thickness:

#1 Thin Wall Checking and Fixing.
When we looked into the data for why we had to reject certain designs, it became clear that the biggest issue preventing them from passing our manual checks was in their structural integrity: they had "thin walls" and weren't strong enough to withstand the whole production process. While a large part of the process your product goes through is just bits and bytes, after a product is taken out of the 3D printer, it is physically touched at least 5 times in cleaning, quality checks, packing, and more. While our printers can produce nearly anything, you can imagine when blasting excess material off your model with high pressured air, your model will need some strength to survive. Soon enough our team decided to surface critical checks of your models on upload; the thin wall checker was one of the first of these tools released on our website. Shortly followed by the thin wall fixer, which in many cases can help solve issues with your models that would have otherwise caused the models to be rejected. We have lots of huge plans for this area, so we can show you the path, right at upload, to producing your model successfully.



And we invite you to submit continuing good ideas in this thread!

Thanks!
Natalia


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