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Re: Preventing Rejections [message #83725 is a reply to message #83703 ] Thu, 23 January 2014 19:34 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar stonysmith  is currently offline stonysmith
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AmLachDesigns wrote on Thu, 23 January 2014 16:14

Out of curiosity, Stony, is the number of parts determination performed by software or humans?
If by software, is it a difficult determination?

It's done by software, and it is a VERY difficult computation. I believe that Shapeways uses the "first order solution"

The software makes only one pass at computing the solution.. it would call this one PART, when it's actually two:
http://britton.disted.camosun.bc.ca/chinesering/solu_0.jpg
See how to solve this puzzle here

Because it's only a first-order software solution, it will make some errors.
There's a chance that it could call this a single part, due to the orientation:
index.php?t=getfile&id=50297&private=0

  • Attachment: OnePart2.jpg
    (Size: 19.65KB, Downloaded 365 time(s))


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Re: Preventing Rejections [message #83750 is a reply to message #83725 ] Thu, 23 January 2014 22:03 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar AmLachDesigns  is currently offline AmLachDesigns
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Thanks Stony, that's kind of what I imagined.

If the solution is not 100% guaranteed, is it worth doing it?
Re: Preventing Rejections [message #83764 is a reply to message #83680 ] Fri, 24 January 2014 01:26 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar Roy_Stevens  is currently offline Roy_Stevens
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MitchellJetten wrote on Thu, 23 January 2014 08:53

I'll look into this dcyale ;)

So when we drag the model individually, we notice the small part that wasn't attached.
While, most likely, the successful print was dragged to the tray as group.



I sometimes use blocking plates and other features across multiple 'parts' to ensure that my prints don't end up poorly textured regardless of orientation in the tray. I had no idea that even that effort could be subverted. How can I lock my parts in a certain orientation short of adding sprues? (which causes all sorts of other issue)


Earl Grey, hot.
Re: Preventing Rejections [message #83768 is a reply to message #83706 ] Fri, 24 January 2014 02:28 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar stannum is currently online stannum
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dcyale wrote on Thu, 23 January 2014 16:31

@ Youknowwho4eva:

I never paid attention to this screen before- thanks for the info. A new QC check I can make. Thanks.

Dave



The part info could be over the Update File button. All the other info is already there, with more eye catching formating, visible all the time. It would also save one click.
Re: Preventing Rejections [message #83774 is a reply to message #83725 ] Fri, 24 January 2014 07:51 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar MitchellJetten  is currently offline MitchellJetten
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stonysmith wrote on Thu, 23 January 2014 19:34


The software makes only one pass at computing the solution.. it would call this one PART, when it's actually two:
http://britton.disted.camosun.bc.ca/chinesering/solu_0.jpg
See how to solve this puzzle here



So right now, for this model, if you go to "EDIT MODEL" and click on the "Details" tab, you will see:
========================
Parts

Number of Separate Parts: 1
=======================

cause you will receive 1 part in the bag.
what if we would include the actual number of shells:
=========================
Parts

Number of Separate Parts: 1
Number of shells: 7
=========================

Would that help?
As an example my own model:
https://images1.sw-cdn.net/model/picture/674x501_1569279_1841753_1387371724.jpg

In this case it's supposed to be 1 part and 1 shell.
If the page would show that there is 1 part and 2 shells, you know something is wrong (unfortunately we can only tell you, not show you).
This would potentially help you as you can investigate why the model has multiple shells (like a loose door handle) before having to order it.

Mitch


Kind regards,

Mitchell Jetten
Customer Service Coordinator
Shapeways
Re: Preventing Rejections [message #83777 is a reply to message #83774 ] Fri, 24 January 2014 09:26 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar dcyale  is currently offline dcyale
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If the information is already available, the number of shells certainly couldn't hurt.

Dave
Re: Preventing Rejections [message #85083 is a reply to message #83777 ] Wed, 19 February 2014 14:59 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar railNscale  is currently offline railNscale
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LS.,

And AGAIN we receive an annoying rejection about geometry that was printed numerous times with success and which is not even close to critical.

The noticed wall thickness seems to be a 'problem'. Now the interesting bit is that the exact same geometry has been produced 13 times for our customers, and several times for us. As a matter of fact one customer has ordered multiple models with the exact same geometry, of which ONE model is rejected. Shall I explain this customer that SW doesn't want to print one model because it is 100% exactly the same than the other models SW is happy to print?


Maurice
RAILNSCALE

Edit: Removed non-constructive language.

[Updated on: Thu, 20 February 2014 16:57 UTC] by Moderator


railNscale 'Een verrijking voor uw miniatuurwereld' railNscale.wordpress.com
Re: Preventing Rejections [message #85149 is a reply to message #85083 ] Thu, 20 February 2014 16:57 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar railNscale  is currently offline railNscale
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Hello,

Well I received the apologies again from SW. So thanks for that. Hopefully the customer is not too upset and willing to re-order.
So far so good.

But

Why is this happening so often? 9 out of 10 rejections proved to be false!

I understand that humans make mistakes. What I totally not understand is the procedure. Who invented the title: "Help us resolve issues with your customer's order". The text underneath such an email never opens a way to resolve issues, because the order is was already killed by SW. So, the title promises something that will actually not happen.

The rejection text currently contains the following message: "We want you to be successful, so we encourage you to:

Fix and update your design here: [your brilliantly designed model]. This will ensure that you can continue to sell your product.
Let [your unhappy client] know you're fixing the issue by sending them a message.
"

What does this text suggest? 'you can continue to sell your model' sounds in my Dutch ears as a 'continuation' of the already placed order. Meaning: we don't cancel it, we continue printing (after a modification - if at all needed) ...

Of course I was wrong, but the chosen wording of SW just sounds more crispy than telling the plain truth.

So in reality the order is cancelled. I need to write my comments and more or less try to convince SW. Meanwhile I am suppose to do damage-control to our customer who often happens to be German or French speaking (roughly 80% of our customers) who are already completely lost. The fun is that I have to explain that the remarks of SW are faulty. I happen to explain this in German or Google-French. After the confirmation of SW that they were wrong again, I then send another message to this customer telling him/her that it was all a bit of a joke and that he/she can re-order the model and that SW will pay the shipments cost.

Are my experiences unique here?

Maurice









railNscale 'Een verrijking voor uw miniatuurwereld' railNscale.wordpress.com
Re: Preventing Rejections [message #85151 is a reply to message #85149 ] Thu, 20 February 2014 17:16 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar AmLachDesigns  is currently offline AmLachDesigns
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Edited

[Updated on: Thu, 20 February 2014 17:20 UTC]

Re: Preventing Rejections [message #85175 is a reply to message #85149 ] Thu, 20 February 2014 22:29 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar lensman  is currently offline lensman
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railNscale wrote on Thu, 20 February 2014 16:57


Are my experiences unique here?



No, they aren't unique. We've all received that "Help us fix your model..." email, although I think the number of times it happens with your model is a bit unique. I, too, used to think that the order was still active and that all I had to do was correct the model, upload it, and all would be okay... but not so, unfortunately.


Glenn ------ My Website Third Dimension Jewellery
Re: Preventing Rejections [message #85933 is a reply to message #62565 ] Fri, 07 March 2014 15:14 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar Mechanoid  is currently offline Mechanoid
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I had an older model that works, get rejected last week. When I disputed the rejection, I was ignored for 3 days. Then when I was contacted, it was to tell me to calm down, and Please try to work with us, we would love to keep you as a customer. Which sounded alot like a subtle threat that I might be thrown of ShapeWays for disputing The Service Team. When I brought that up in my reply, besides asking them to check the models listed below.

Now they refuse to even reply to me at all.

The model in question is #1170710 SA-25A Badger Nightfury Set. Which the same model is in the fallowing sets. Exact same wing section on every model.

#685770 Galaxy Fighters 1/1000 Scale

#1170706 SA-23 Aurora Basic Nightfury Set

#1170702 PSI Corps Black Omega Nightfury Set

#1170710 SA-25A Badger Nightfury Set

#1170712 SA-30-E-A Badger Set

They said the wing was below the the guidelines for wall thickness. They failed to realize the wing has a taper, Starts at 1.08mm thick, and slopes down 0.46mm at the edge.
index.php?t=getfile&id=53806&private=0

Now here is the actual model with the measurements from all over the wing.
index.php?t=getfile&id=53807&private=0

The Service Team refuses to admit that this model works. This wing section is identical in every one of the files above. Model #685770 has been up and working without any issues for well over a year. I had to go back into all the newer sets and delete the spurs, because they were causing production issues. And that reset the "Printed Before" flags.

The Service Team keeps saying "Work With Us On This Issue", then they go back to ignoring people. They have no consistency from agent to agent in checking models. The WTVT even says it's fine. Now they are telling me, ---

"Also, I am sure you know that the WTVT is JUST an indicator, it does not catch everything, all the models are still subject to our manual review.".

It's like The Service Team doesn't like the WTVT, and as people are learning to use it, they some how feel threatened. That maybe the WTVT is going to make their jobs worthless. Because since I started using it, no rejections at all of new models. As I go back to old models, I'm making repairs as needed. But if the WTVT says it's fine, I'm leaving it alone. And every model that the WTVT says is good, it has printed without issue.

I have attempted several times to communicate with The Service Team, and they are still ignoring me. I have even asked that Mr. Jetten be asked to take a look, to get a production engineer involved. But still nothing. ShapeWays seems to really hate when people air dirty laundry in public like this. But it seems that is the only way to get them to respond to an issue.

Let it also be known, I am NOT calling The Service Team names, insulting them or putting them down in any form what so ever. All I have done is call them out, on the job they are suppose to be doing anyways.

One agent gets a model first thing that morning and see's no problems, model gets printed, Another agent gets the same model on another order an hour later, they reject it. This is what confuses me to no end. No consistency at all from agent to agent. It's causing tempers to flair, blood to boil and it's costing shop owners customers, as well as their reputations. And I honestly thought the WTVT would have brought much of that to an end. Guess Not.

Samantha


I.D.I.C. = Infinite Diversity in Infinite Combinations
Re: Preventing Rejections [message #85936 is a reply to message #62565 ] Fri, 07 March 2014 16:28 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar Youknowwho4eva  is currently offline Youknowwho4eva
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Samantha,

We have no problems with people bringing their issues to the forums. Especially when they are in a constructive manner.

First off, we don't want you or anyone to leave.

Second, a question. Looking at your SA-23 Aurora Basic Nightfury Set and your SA-25A Badger Nightfury Set, is there a difference in the sets? If not, you already have the one that's printed, could you sell it as the other set as well? Just a suggestion, if that one has successfully printed as is, then it has the previously printed flag.

Now, we have the new Print it Anyway (PIA) button. I know your customers can't use this for your models, and currently successfully printing with PIA doesn't generate a previously printed flag, but if you were to order it for yourself and use PIA and there were no issues in the production, you'd have some weight to say that we can print it. This would not guarantee that we'd sell it to your customers! But one of the future purposes of PIA is so modelers can prove something is producible.

As for your concerns with service, I'll get with the rest of the community team (they're at SXSW today so it probably won't be till next week) and with the service team to see what's going on and how we can better serve you.

Thanks,
Mike


I learned a long time ago the wisest thing I can do is be on my own side, be an advocate for myself and others like me. -Maya Angelou
michael@shapeways.com Community Advocate
Re: Preventing Rejections [message #85941 is a reply to message #85936 ] Fri, 07 March 2014 17:34 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar Mechanoid  is currently offline Mechanoid
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Mike,

Yup there is a difference. The SA-25A Badger Nightfury Set has a second cockpit on the backside. That's the only change between those 2 designs. It was a special design fighter. That is why I have the different sets. The oldest file, the Galaxy Fighters Set, has most of the new sets in it. The only one that is not in the old file is the Mind Bender Black Omega Nightfury Set. They have a special Black Omega on the tops. And they started out as the SA-23 Aurora Basic Nightfury Set. That is why I am totally confused why some are being printed, and this last set was rejected. For the same wing that is in the other files.

Since I had to remove the spurs, most have been printed and gotten the Printed Before flag. The SA-25A Badger Nightfury Set was overlooked. Now I'm preparing to order this set, using the PIA. But how do I findout if there were issues or not? I know this set will print, just have to get it past The Service Team first. And I don't know how to do that.

Mike, the email I got last week, which did NOT address my dispute at all, it just read like it was either a hint that I might get booted from the site, or that it was a mild threat, telling me to shut up or I would be. It just weird how things are being done lately. Like I said I have been using the WTVT to manage my designs better. Even the older designs I had to pay outright to have created. WTVT has made it easy for me to find and repair models before The Service Team gets to reject it. As a result I truly know my models, what works, what is in question.

Consistency, that is where the heart of the rejection problems lay. One agent see's a problem, one doesn't. Looking at the exact same model. The combative vibe that The Service Team gives off at times, total refusal to admit when they made a mistake. They turn a model off, it's off until I upload the model again, or cave in to what I was TOLD. If I make a mistake, I'm the first to admit it. And I take responsibility for it. When The Service Team makes a mistake, they reply with; "well it should have never been printed before", or something down those lines. But when you dispute it, they take it personally. They never admit to being wrong. So how can I "HELP US RESOLVE ISSUES", if they are not taking responsibility for their part in things?

Mike, tell me what to do, PLEASE.


I.D.I.C. = Infinite Diversity in Infinite Combinations
Re: Preventing Rejections [message #85944 is a reply to message #62565 ] Fri, 07 March 2014 18:27 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar Youknowwho4eva  is currently offline Youknowwho4eva
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Samantha,

About the different models: I see, and certainly understand the frustration. Even if the whole piece was exactly the same, the checkers can't compare and verify. But I see your point, that either all should fail or none. We are working on the inconsistency issues.

I haven't seen most of the emails yet. We'll assess and address that. For now lets handle that, at the least, outside of this thread on preventing rejections. Preferably lets address through email so we can get all the facts together and come to a happy conclusion.

For PIA, it's my understanding that you will be informed of any and all issues including "rejections". So if you order with PIA, and the checker rejects the file, it'll be noted that it was "rejected" but will be sent to the printer anyway. If the quality doesn't meet our standards, same thing. It'll be noted that it was "rejected" but will still be sent to you. Here's the full details of PIA.

As for what to do right now, take a breath and enjoy your weekend! I'll handle getting all the back end stuff started. The rest of the community team is at SXSW until Wednesday, but I should be able to reach them via email so that we are at least starting the discussion.


I learned a long time ago the wisest thing I can do is be on my own side, be an advocate for myself and others like me. -Maya Angelou
michael@shapeways.com Community Advocate
Re: Preventing Rejections [message #86325 is a reply to message #85944 ] Mon, 17 March 2014 22:47 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar pezhetairoi  is currently offline pezhetairoi
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Very disappointing.

Another rejection with previously printed models. Says they cant be printed in "x detail" material.
https://www.shapeways.com/model/782884/10-aquatic-intercepto rs.html?materialId=5
https://www.shapeways.com/model/782879/10-aquatic-fighter-bo mbers.html?materialId=5

Odd, since I can do it here at home with a similar style machine (see model photos). I have some Shapeways samples of even thinner "walls" from other models in "transparent detail" here on my desk, and they look great.
What's wrong with these? What the operator cites as wall thickness looks like embossed detail to me. The little bumps? They don't even need to perfectly formed. They are meant to be hand painted.
When I asked about it, the message said this:
Thanks for reaching out to us so sorry to hear we had issues with these models.

Both models have never been printed before in White or Black detail Plastic. Due to the fragile nature of Detail Plastics, we strongly advice against making them available in this material. Strong and Flexible and Frosted Ultra Detail will be able to withstand this geometry better. I'd recommend removing the option for Detail Plastic or updating the model so that it can be printed successfully.


So the suggestion is ... just don't do it?
The service here is less than practical. The non-responses are both unhelpful and irritating.

Re: Preventing Rejections [message #93664 is a reply to message #62565 ] Wed, 09 July 2014 16:17 UTC Go to previous message
avatar natalia  is currently offline natalia
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Hey guys,

Since this thread was started a year and a half ago, I wanted to post an update on this long-raging topic.....


At Shapeways, we have a tradition of giving internal projects an animal name that captures its essence. In this case, the problem we wanted to tackle is a big hairy one with lots of sections and legs, across all our teams -- like a caterpillar. The problem is: rejections. Our goal is to dramatically improve how we give you feedback when a product you have ordered cannot be manufactured using 3D printing. Historically, you might have received our standard rejection email that said, "After taking a closer look, we cannot print one of the models in order # ..." You probably spent hours designing, or searching for, that one unique product that is not for sale anywhere else and then we had to tell you to start over! We understand that this could be a very disappointing message. With Project Caterpillar, our aim is to turn design feedback and iteration into a positive experience, and watch our caterpillar eventually go into its chrysalis and emerge as a beautiful butterfly.

It has been half a year since we formed a team to tackle this issue head on. The team consists of community managers, operational directors, software developers, customer service representatives, product managers, and supply chain coordinators. It has been all hands on deck to fight what many of you felt is the worst experience when shopping, selling or making products at Shapeways: getting a rejection.

Why is this such a hairy problem?

At Shapeways we always aim to quickly and affordably turn your ideas from digital designs into real products, but due to the limitations in 3D printing, some designs just can't be brought to life in their current form. To help clarify how to best design for 3D printing, we provide tools on our website that give you the information you need to make the best possible decisions while designing a product, but it's not always that simple. Usually we know what will print, but we are also learning with our customers every day -- you are pushing the limits of the technology, and we're right along with you, even if sometimes we have to give you bad news that we can't produce your product as you've built it.

But really, why is this so hard? Here are some of the biggest issues:

Well, the first thing was to accept that it is OK to fail. We should take chances, and if that means we try it a few times and we still can't print your product, that's OK so long as we give you actionable feedback once we figure it out--and then we can keep learning about what works and what doesn't.
For makers in particular, most of the time we have never seen these products before, and we are not sure what you want! Should that really small propeller actually be attached to the plane? Is it OK if you have a ton of powder stuck inside? We are guessing, and need better ways to understand your intentions and communicate.

One of the biggest challenges has been consistency: every model gets checked by hand, and we have dozens of production partners who are looking at thousands of models that have been made 5 minutes or 5 years ago in 40+ materials. This is a lot of people and data to coordinate. So a huge part of our focus was around training our 3D print engineers, and on giving you useful, timely feedback.

You might have noticed that we publish guidelines and not rules. That's partially because we want to continue to allow you to push creative boundaries, and also because creating designs with 3D software that also observe rules of physics can be subjective. For instance, a thin wire will work if the rest of the geometry is structurally sound, but a hard "no thin wire" rule would have eliminated this option. So it's a lot of art, and less science than we would prefer, especially when the technology improves every day.

With this in mind and the goal of turning rejections into resolutions, our teams have been working around the clock to surface potential issues with your models as soon as possible, to provide actionable, consistent feedback when there is an issue, and to make the rejection experience less frustrating for anyone that still receives that disappointing message.

Trust us, we know we're not quite there yet and we will continue to do everything in our power to accommodate your needs. Still, we wanted to take this opportunity, half a year down the line to reflect on where we came from and where we are now.

Some of the steps we took to reduce rejections

#1 Thin Wall Checking and Fixing.

When we looked into the data for why we had to reject certain designs, it became clear that the biggest issue preventing them from passing our manual checks was in their structural integrity: they had "thin walls" and weren't strong enough to withstand the whole production process. While a large part of the process your product goes through is just bits and bytes, after a product is taken out of the 3D printer, it is physically touched at least 5 times in cleaning, quality checks, packing, and more. While our printers can produce nearly anything, you can imagine when blasting excess material off your model with high pressured air, your model will need some strength to survive. Soon enough our team decided to surface critical checks of your models on upload; the thin wall checker was one of the first of these tools released on our website. Shortly followed by the thin wall fixer, which in many cases can help solve issues with your models that would have otherwise caused the models to be rejected. We have lots of huge plans for this area, so we can show you the path, right at upload, to producing your model successfully.

#2 Print It Anyway.

Another feature many of our most loyal and seasoned community members have been requesting for a long time is the option to go ahead with manufacturing, even if the model doesn't pass manual checks. Print It Anyway is an option at checkout, that enables you to test your most complicated designs and learn from the actual, physical outcome. Our production crew will always do their very best to ship models in the desired level of quality, and this is no different when selecting Print It Anyway. If a feature on your model cannot make it through the whole production process without slight issues, we would still ship the model to you, so you can hold your model in your own hands, learn from it, and iterate. We learn from your PIAs too!

#3 Detailed Manual Checks.

While all of this work was in progress, our 3D printing engineers have been aiming to provide the complete feedback to slightly adjust your design if it failed thorough manual checks. Instead of surfacing just one issue, they now describe all the issues at once. In practice, this means you would not end up in an endless circle of rejection and updating your model. If you do experience a rejection, the reasons are also now available on your model edit page as well as in your original email.

#4 Checking Consistency & #5 Print Success Rates.

We know that the most infuriating thing is to get a rejection of a model that you printed before, and we have paid special attention to fixing that. Indeed we have had a few big hiccups (SORRY STONY!) managing these models along the way, but we have improved dramatically, down to < 0.3% of models, and we are still trying to make it better. The consistency of manual checks is continuously monitored and the print success rate of your model is now shown on your model edit page. This way you see the same metrics we look at to judge success through the process.

What's next?

We're happy to report that we've made some significant progress, reducing by half the number of times we have to tell you that we can't print your model. When we do have to give you the bad news, most of the time it's within 24 hours, and it's always accompanied by a detailed explanation from a trained 3DP engineer. While we think this improves your experience, we know this is just the tip of the iceberg, especially if you're someone who still can't get your product made. We promise that we're committed to helping you bring amazing products to life, and there are still lots of features and improvements lined up.

This caterpillar is not quite ready to come out of its chrysalis, at least not until we have found a solution that eradicates your frustration and disappointment, but we will continue to listen to your feedback and we will learn from you every day.

Thank you,

Team Caterpillar
index.php?t=getfile&id=64495&private=0

With this update and all the improvements we've made, I'd like to close this thread and invite you to post your new suggestions here.

Looking forward to continuing to evolve with you,
Natalia

[Updated on: Wed, 09 July 2014 16:25 UTC]


Shapeways Community Manager

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