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Re: Preventing Rejections [message #78607 is a reply to message #78586 ] Sat, 09 November 2013 19:34 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar stop4stuff  is currently offline stop4stuff
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stonysmith wrote on Sat, 09 November 2013 16:32

Quote:

Also, on the topic of SW losing money on rejections, I'm curious how you figure that.


A note from basic economics:

Shapeways has to pay the human to check your models. Any rejection (with a full refund) means that they have to absorb the cost of the manhours spent checking your model. This cuts into the profit they make on the model when a copy is finally ordered. I've got eight models in my shop right now that have been rejected without subsequent patron orders. That means that Shapeways "lost" the payroll dollars paid to the humans that performed the checks, along with lost the profit they would have collected from a successful print. So, it is NOT in their interest to "deliberately try to annoy us" as has been suggested.

That's why I personally advocate a $1 option to have a model checked and validated so that it can be released to the public without my having to pay for a full print. I've got too many models where the net markup collected to date doesn't cover the cost of a single print. I'd be losing money if I paid for a test print of every model just to ensure it won't be rejected. Of all the items in my shop, 67% have not produced enough markup to cover the cost of buying a test print of the item. But again.. I'm in this for the designs, not the money. This is a HOBBY for me.


The cost of a human checking the model is already factored into the print cost - rarely do we see the cost of a material increasing. Unecessary repetative checking of models that have already printed eats into Shapeways' profits with wasted man-hours, in the case of many examples of this thread, it severly disrupts the designer too.

The model that iMaterialise use, whilst more expensive than Shapeways for the designer, means that once printed the model remains printable. Costs are covered and a successful item/product is the end result.

As far as I can see, this issue of rejections, preventing rejections and how the issues can be handled is just going around in circles.

@Natalia.

Please can you answer specifically.

1 - Do previous versions of uploaded models get stored and are they retrievable?
2 - If so, and if the previous version of a model was printable, will Shapeways allow reversion to that previous model and honour the printability status of that reverted model?

Cheers,
Paul


Re: Preventing Rejections [message #78626 is a reply to message #78586 ] Sun, 10 November 2013 07:03 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar SnowyRiver  is currently offline SnowyRiver
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stonysmith wrote on Sat, 09 November 2013 16:32

... So, it is NOT in their interest to "deliberately try to annoy us" as has been suggested...


Ah... I never suggested that this was an issue of them being interested in deliberately trying to annoy is. What is said is that it seemed that their reviewers were in the mindset of "look for any reason to reject this model". From an immature business model, this make a lot of sense, as attempting to print a model that cannot be printed, and then causes a printer crash, can cost them a lot more than the cost of the time for the reviewers. So, early on it would make a lot of sense for them to have their reviewers in this kind of mindset.

But now, with their growing skill in this new business, they should be working, and working hard, to implement some new approaches. This is my point. When reviewers check models, they should categorize them into something like three categories: fine, borderline, and needs improvement. Needs improvement would be the equivalent of a rejection, but it could give the designer a chance to fix the model before it is simply deleted from an order, whether his own order or someone else's. Borderline models would be subject to mild scrutiny with every printing, but previous print success rate would be taken into account. And "Fine" models would not get scrutinized again, unless a new version of the model were uploaded.

So, I think you heard me accusing them of something malicious, where I was seeing something natural but in need of change.
Re: Preventing Rejections [message #79627 is a reply to message #78626 ] Sat, 23 November 2013 00:37 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar Roy_Stevens  is currently offline Roy_Stevens
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stonysmith wrote on Sat, 09 November 2013 16:32

... So, it is NOT in their interest to "deliberately try to annoy us" as has been suggested...


I wish I could believe that, but check out this rejection. Note that the exact same round sprue rod is measured at one point as OK and another point as rejected.index.php?t=getfile&id=45728&private=0

[Updated on: Sat, 23 November 2013 00:37 UTC]


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Re: Preventing Rejections [message #79629 is a reply to message #79627 ] Sat, 23 November 2013 01:06 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar stonysmith  is currently offline stonysmith
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No, they're not saying one measurement is rejected and the other is accepted.
I will categorically state that their communication should be clearer, however, the green hilight you see there is purely a matter of that is the point they measured last. They are (inarticulately) stating that NEITHER of those measurements is acceptable.

Since that is a sprue, and there's a good deal of weight on each end, they are (poorly) expressing that it needs to be 0.8mm or even larger. Personally, I make my sprues 1.0mm or even 1.385mm so that there's no doubt that it is above the limit they desire.

Looking at this single image of your model, I'd move the three items closer together (no reason to space them out) and I'd put the sprue thru the main hole there in the items. A sprue does not need to touch the items, it can also just help hold them together such that the entire assembly can be picked up as a single part, like this:
https://images1.sw-cdn.net/model/picture/674x501_1036246_934581_1365732962.jpg

[Updated on: Sat, 23 November 2013 01:12 UTC]


Patience, Persistance, Politeness - the 3Ps will help us get us to Perfect Printed Products
Re: Preventing Rejections [message #79630 is a reply to message #79629 ] Sat, 23 November 2013 01:08 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar PeregrineStudios  is currently offline PeregrineStudios
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Just got a rejection for a model made using one of Shapeways' own 'Easy Creator Apps'. That's a very, very bad sign when internal consistency is so bad that the stuff that Shapeways itself puts together for you gets rejected.
Re: Preventing Rejections [message #79631 is a reply to message #79630 ] Sat, 23 November 2013 01:17 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar stonysmith  is currently offline stonysmith
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PeregrineStudios wrote on Sat, 23 November 2013 01:08

Just got a rejection for a model made using one of Shapeways' own 'Easy Creator Apps'. That's a very, very bad sign when internal consistency is so bad that the stuff that Shapeways itself puts together for you gets rejected.

Would you mind sending the model # to service@shapeways.com? The CS folks can then forward it to the development team. The Dev team needs to see examples of stuff that doesn't work.

As a programmer myself, it's "easy"' to make stuff that doesn't work and "easier" to make stuff that does work - from my own data. What's much tougher is to imagine what "users" will try to do to my code. <grin>


Patience, Persistance, Politeness - the 3Ps will help us get us to Perfect Printed Products
Re: Preventing Rejections [message #79633 is a reply to message #79629 ] Sat, 23 November 2013 01:21 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar Roy_Stevens  is currently offline Roy_Stevens
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stonysmith wrote on Sat, 23 November 2013 01:06


Since that is a sprue, and there's a good deal of weight on each end, they are (poorly) expressing that it needs to be 0.8mm or even larger. Personally, I make my sprues 1.0mm or even 1.385mm so that there's no doubt that it is above the limit they desire.


The rules state that supported wires must be 0.6mm minimum, and I have followed that rule. That particular rule is serious overkill anyway and I would argue that there is essentially no weight at either end. The sprues are there only for the convenience of handling at the production facility, and certainly get in the way otherwise.


Earl Grey, hot.
Re: Preventing Rejections [message #79637 is a reply to message #79633 ] Sat, 23 November 2013 02:01 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar SnowyRiver  is currently offline SnowyRiver
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Roy_Stevens wrote on Sat, 23 November 2013 01:21

stonysmith wrote on Sat, 23 November 2013 01:06


Since that is a sprue, and there's a good deal of weight on each end, they are (poorly) expressing that it needs to be 0.8mm or even larger. Personally, I make my sprues 1.0mm or even 1.385mm so that there's no doubt that it is above the limit they desire.


The rules state that supported wires must be 0.6mm minimum, and I have followed that rule. That particular rule is serious overkill anyway and I would argue that there is essentially no weight at either end. The sprues are there only for the convenience of handling at the production facility, and certainly get in the way otherwise.



As the only material that has a design spec for supported wire of 0.6mm is frosted detail plastic, I presume that's what you're working with. However, if you look just a little farther down the design guidelines, it does say "Min Wire Supported: 0.6mm; Min Wire Free: 0.8mm (if not bearing weight) | 1.0mm (if bearing weight, like a sprue)". Given that, though I grant you that it probably should be spelled out more clearly, if they were considering those to be sprues, then they would be looking for 1.0mm diameter, and that may have lead to the rejection. I will agree, however, that the design guidelines are often not that fully explained, and leave room for interpretation. This is, I think, a consequence of trying to work right at the edge of the capabilities of their machines.

I do think that more can be done to deal with the rejection issues, but calling foul on one rejection because you don't agree with the reasons, without first contacting customer service to get an explanation, is a bit excessive.

(Now, when I got a rejection that gave the reason for the rejection as "Totally impossible to deal with", I cried foul at once. The CS folks did acknowledge that this was not a helpful message to have sent to me, but did help me to understand the actual reason for the rejection, and what I could do to fix it.)
Re: Preventing Rejections [message #79657 is a reply to message #79637 ] Sat, 23 November 2013 10:27 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar MitchellJetten  is currently offline MitchellJetten
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The biggest issue here with sprues is that you don't mind that it breaks.
But when we take the model from the printer tray, and let's say we pick it up on the section on the right, it will mean that due to leverage effect the sprue might break really easily.
(thus getting lost, having to reprint the model)

This is why we ask people to use 1mm sprues to make sure it will not break during the post process which includes cleaning as well.


There are 2 major things (personal opinion) that are different in your software and in real life:

1*. Details and text, in your 3d software these details and text will be visible when using 0.01mm but in real life this isn't visible (text will only start to be readable after 0.4mm).
So to me this is an optic illusion, there is no real way of knowing if the detail will show up as it will always look good in your 3d software, no matter what size used.

2*. gravity! I have seen people making the strangest models you can think of, many of them are actually wire like models which go in every direction, not being supported by anything.
In your 3d software this looks like a beautiful cloud with wires of 1mm thick.
However as soon as we 3D print the model, gravity starts to kick in and the model will end up looking like spaghetti.
To my knowledge there is no way of knowing before printing what gravity will do to your model (any ideas???)


Kind regards,

Mitchell Jetten
Customer Service Coordinator
Shapeways
Re: Preventing Rejections [message #79659 is a reply to message #79657 ] Sat, 23 November 2013 11:42 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar mkroeker  is currently offline mkroeker
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Some thoughts:
A tutorial gallery composed of rejection images from this and similar threads with their explanations might help us designers understand better what your production people are seeing as defects in our models when the average rejection message is short and sometimes cryptic.

And as I have been guilty of both #1 (undue skimpyness ) and #2 (defying gravity), I would like to suggest some means of communicating that some imperfection would be acceptable (a broken sprue, or in my case a missing ball on the outside). Such messages would only have to be read before a reprint is made, so hopefully would not interfere with your current workflow. (Initial implementation could be limited to the materials processed in-house, where access to the information would presumably be easier).

For #2, possibly a stress-strain analysis with a (possibly exaggerated) downward force - commercial packages for this tend to be expensive, but perhaps GMSH (from geuz.org) is up to the task ?
Re: Preventing Rejections [message #79660 is a reply to message #79659 ] Sat, 23 November 2013 12:04 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar MitchellJetten  is currently offline MitchellJetten
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I have to go right now, but did want to answer quickly the sprue thing:

"a broken sprue" might be harder than it sounds.
Most people use a sprue for really small models, so if the sprue breaks it might potentially result in small parts getting lost in the process.

And the rejections, I would love to do this, but this brings up the point: would you like it if I share a your rejection to the world?
A lot of models are private and I'm sure they don't want to have their rejection picture shown to the public.

Mitchell


Kind regards,

Mitchell Jetten
Customer Service Coordinator
Shapeways
Re: Preventing Rejections [message #79662 is a reply to message #79660 ] Sat, 23 November 2013 12:11 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar mkroeker  is currently offline mkroeker
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Have to go too, so even quicker:
1. broken sprue - option to continue anyway only if you would not have rejected the part without it anyway.
2. use only rejection images that have been posted here already, hence world visible already and (i think) by your t&c already free for you to use as you
see fit
Re: Preventing Rejections [message #79663 is a reply to message #79657 ] Sat, 23 November 2013 12:23 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar AmLachDesigns  is currently offline AmLachDesigns
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Quote:

However as soon as we 3D print the model, gravity starts to kick in and the model will end up looking like spaghetti.
To my knowledge there is no way of knowing before printing what gravity will do to your model (any ideas???)


Well, in Blender you can apply gravity to objects. How do you do it? No idea, way too advanced for me...

These links might also be interesting:

http://hpcg.purdue.edu/?page=publication&id=164
http://3dprintingindustry.com/2013/08/01/make-it-stand-3d-pr inted-objects-that-dont-tip-over/
Re: Preventing Rejections [message #79667 is a reply to message #79660 ] Sat, 23 November 2013 18:23 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar stonysmith  is currently offline stonysmith
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MitchellJetten wrote on Sat, 23 November 2013 12:04

Would you like it if I share a your rejection to the world?
Mitchell

Please feel free to share ANY rejection from my shop, if you can still find any.

I would really like it if you share any rejection from tomorrow. That way I can get started on it early. <GRIN>

[Updated on: Sat, 23 November 2013 18:25 UTC]


Patience, Persistance, Politeness - the 3Ps will help us get us to Perfect Printed Products
Re: Preventing Rejections [message #79693 is a reply to message #79657 ] Sun, 24 November 2013 05:22 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar Roy_Stevens  is currently offline Roy_Stevens
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MitchellJetten wrote on Sat, 23 November 2013 10:27


2*. gravity! I have seen people making the strangest models you can think of, many of them are actually wire like models which go in every direction, not being supported by anything.
In your 3d software this looks like a beautiful cloud with wires of 1mm thick.
However as soon as we 3D print the model, gravity starts to kick in and the model will end up looking like spaghetti.
To my knowledge there is no way of knowing before printing what gravity will do to your model (any ideas???)


Solidworks will do an analysis of a design with gravity, but one still needs to know where the bottom is. One caveat is that the software will assume a homogeneous material, which most printed materials aren't. In FUD what works well in the X-Y plane will fall apart in the Y-Z plane. But gravity isn't the enemy. It's overzealous cleansers, rock-hard bubble wrap and too-small zip-lock bags that tend to destroy my models. But those are issues for a different discussion list.


Earl Grey, hot.
Re: Preventing Rejections [message #79694 is a reply to message #79693 ] Sun, 24 November 2013 05:51 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar MrNib  is currently offline MrNib
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Considering that handling and survival of models through the shipment step is factored into rejections it could be part of this discussion. In general I find the packing methods to be extremely variable over time. But I will save clarifying comments for a different discussion list... Razz

Re: Preventing Rejections [message #80004 is a reply to message #62565 ] Wed, 27 November 2013 20:17 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar kengabourie  is currently offline kengabourie
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I don't know what the actual problem is as I've never bought any of the models produced by the designers engaged by Shapeways but I am just about to spend a sizable chunk of change on numerous models produced by Stony Smith. In reading these messages, am I to assume that they are no longer available through Shapeways? If this is true, then I'm hooped. Many of the items I want I can't get anywhere else because no one else produces them.
Re: Preventing Rejections [message #80006 is a reply to message #80004 ] Wed, 27 November 2013 20:20 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar Roy_Stevens  is currently offline Roy_Stevens
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kengabourie wrote on Wed, 27 November 2013 20:17

I don't know what the actual problem is as I've never bought any of the models produced by the designers engaged by Shapeways but I am just about to spend a sizable chunk of change on numerous models produced by Stony Smith. In reading these messages, am I to assume that they are no longer available through Shapeways? If this is true, then I'm hooped. Many of the items I want I can't get anywhere else because no one else produces them.

Don't worry, Stony is a beta tester and forum moderator for Shapeways, as an insider he gets special treatment. You'll have no trouble ordering his items.


Earl Grey, hot.
Re: Preventing Rejections [message #80007 is a reply to message #80006 ] Wed, 27 November 2013 20:27 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar kengabourie  is currently offline kengabourie
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Now that's a relief. I thought I was gonna be royally screwed here.
Re: Preventing Rejections [message #80076 is a reply to message #80007 ] Thu, 28 November 2013 09:35 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar MitchellJetten  is currently offline MitchellJetten
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lol, no worries, nobody gets a special treatment here, the production teams don't see the names of designer / customer while checking.
And I remember seeing rejections from Stony as well in the past :)


Kind regards,

Mitchell Jetten
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Re: Preventing Rejections [message #80078 is a reply to message #80076 ] Thu, 28 November 2013 09:37 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar Vidalcris  is currently offline Vidalcris
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There is no way to prevent rejection with dumb services, i'm sorry to say that.

Here is the last test we did :
https://www.shapeways.com/forum/index.php?t=msg&goto=800 77#msg_80077

SW dont want to work with us anymore, this is the truth !!!!


Re: Preventing Rejections [message #80082 is a reply to message #80078 ] Thu, 28 November 2013 10:08 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar bartv  is currently offline bartv
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Hey Vidalcris,

let's keep your complaint in one place on the forum instead of spreading it everywhere. I've already answered you in the other thread. We treat every member on an equal basis, no need to think we don't 'want to work with you' - that would be a *very* unhealthy strategy for us!


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Re: Preventing Rejections [message #80083 is a reply to message #80082 ] Thu, 28 November 2013 10:10 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar Vidalcris  is currently offline Vidalcris
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You are not working like a year before... this is your choice.
Let me show what i know to the community ;)


Re: Preventing Rejections [message #80199 is a reply to message #62565 ] Fri, 29 November 2013 17:44 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar natalia  is currently offline natalia
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....and just to reiterate again, we are working really hard to make this process better.

Stay tuned here for good news soon ;-)

Have a great weekend everyone!


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Re: Preventing Rejections [message #80203 is a reply to message #78607 ] Fri, 29 November 2013 18:20 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar natalia  is currently offline natalia
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stop4stuff wrote on Sat, 09 November 2013 19:34



@Natalia.

Please can you answer specifically.

1 - Do previous versions of uploaded models get stored and are they retrievable?
2 - If so, and if the previous version of a model was printable, will Shapeways allow reversion to that previous model and honour the printability status of that reverted model?

Cheers,
Paul



Hi Paul,

Quick answers to your questions
1. We have this history but we can not easily access it. So, effectively no.

2 Mitchell tells me is a maybe, if we printed it successfully and you upload that exact same file, we can at least give it a try but its all manual work so you would need to email customer service the order and provide the info that you uploaded the exact same file...and even in that case we can't validate that it was really the original version. So again, not really.

Rather than work backwards like this, we are working on making it easier to print successfully every time!

[Updated on: Fri, 29 November 2013 18:21 UTC]


Shapeways Community Manager
Re: Preventing Rejections [message #80284 is a reply to message #80203 ] Sun, 01 December 2013 16:09 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar railNscale  is currently offline railNscale
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Again we received a print rejection from Shapeways.
And again, we talk about a rejection of a model that was succesfully printed before.

The model is in:

(a) A set of 2 identical models
(b) A single model
(c) A part of a larger set

Now, (a) is rejected for having a socalled too thin wire. Well it's hardly a wire, and the way SW measures geometry is arguable.
Model (b) has been printed once and shipped to a happy client.
Model (c) has been printed four times and shipped to several happy clients. Nine other orders are between assigned and in production.
And ofcourse we have printed the models for our own purpose as well.

Now some person working at SW tells, "Hello railNscale,
After taking a closer look, we cannot print a model that you have available for sale.
You may be able to update and continue to sell your model based on the information below."

Now, that's incorrect. SW has at least printed this little model SEVEN times. And I can tell you, the model is far from weak.

More cynical is that I have specifically asked a member of the SW-team to check the printability of the model.
IT WAS OK.

Now, you can always try to measure models in such way that you find some geometry that does not meat printing criteria. But this is just pathetic.
The length of this socalled wire is (please sit before reading) a mere 1.2mm. Wow how feable this design is...

And how is SW solving the issue this time? Maybe just printing it would do the trick.

[Updated on: Sun, 01 December 2013 17:42 UTC]


railNscale 'Een verrijking voor uw miniatuurwereld' railNscale.wordpress.com
Re: Preventing Rejections [message #80288 is a reply to message #80284 ] Sun, 01 December 2013 17:07 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar SnowyRiver  is currently offline SnowyRiver
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railNscale wrote on Sun, 01 December 2013 16:09

Again we received a print rejection from Shapeways.
And again, we talk about a rejection of a model that was succesfully printed before.

...

Now, you can always try to measure models in such way that you find some geometry that does not meat printing criteria. But this is just pathetic.

And how is SW solving the issue this time? Maybe just printing it would do the trick.


This does seem like a problem stemming from SW old system, one which I've run up against many times now. We have been promised that a new system is almost ready and we can look forward to seeing changes soon. I think that it's important for us to remember that the kinds of systems that are needed for SW's business require not only policies governing their employees, but also software that will support their methodology. So, while we want changes NOW, SW has to work with due diligence to first choose and develop a new system, then build all of the support systems that a new system will need, then implement the new system with all of their employees. In short, we can armchair quarterback all we want, but SW must face certain business realities in their timeline for making changes.

That said, I really do hope that these new changes that we have been told are coming represent some significant improvements in these areas, and will get here soon. As I indicated earlier, the current model seems to me to be that of an immature business, and if SW doesn't mature with its business model, it will surely get left behind.
Re: Preventing Rejections [message #80345 is a reply to message #80288 ] Mon, 02 December 2013 16:23 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar railNscale  is currently offline railNscale
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We received the following 'answer' from SW.

"Dear Maurice,

I am very sorry about the rejection.
It seems like our planners didn't think this could be accepted after all.
I know that getting a rejection is a bad news, however I agree that it's always better to make sure the models are stable enough for printing, especially if you offer them for sale.
I would like to ask you to repair the model.
Please accept our apologies for the inconvenience.

Adela"

Excuse me? It seems like our planners didn't think this could be accepted after all. ???

The model was printed numerous times!
And SW calls this an answer.

It is a real shame that Shapeways is
1. not performing any kind of proper quality check.
2. Just kill orders from OUR clients without ANY kind of normal cimmunication
3. Just doesn't seem to give a #$%^
4. not even taking the time to check
5. Sending meaningless apologies.

This is totally unacceptable.



railNscale 'Een verrijking voor uw miniatuurwereld' railNscale.wordpress.com
Re: Preventing Rejections [message #80350 is a reply to message #80345 ] Mon, 02 December 2013 16:54 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar Roy_Stevens  is currently offline Roy_Stevens
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Was this item previously printed, or was it just a new item based on previously accepted designs?
I know it isn't the best solution but in the past for 'new' models I know work that get rejected like this, I will just upload the file again to kick the rejected flag off and try again. Often this has worked for me on the second time through the system. Perhaps the person checking the model was having a bad day. I hope they get this sorted soon, it has been almost a year since the rejections went from occasional to ridiculous, and nothing has really been done to fix it.


Earl Grey, hot.
Re: Preventing Rejections [message #80351 is a reply to message #80350 ] Mon, 02 December 2013 17:12 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar railNscale  is currently offline railNscale
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To explain the issue.
We have designed five N-scale vehicles. Let's call them model A, B, C, D and E.
These models can be purchased as individual cars.
Kit A
Kit B
Kit C
Kit D
Kit E
Furthermore we have made the following SETs:
Kit A + A
Kit B + C + D
Kit E + E
Kit A + B + C + D + E

The following kits were produced succesfully: A, C, E, A+A, B+C+D, A+B+C+D+E (the last is by far the most popular one :) )
Kit B and Kit D are not sold yet.
And Kit E+E is suddenly rejected by appearantly someone who probably think it's not produceable, and never even tried producing one.

What does SW think?
Do I really have to buy all the NINE different kits to proof it is printable? Come on. That's pathetic. You hardly sell anything here because of SW-site. I am sure 95% of our sales is a result of promotions we made on several fora and our own multi-language site.

SW should be extremely thankful. Yet they proof not to learn a thing.

I still await a proper answer (means make the model and send it to our client)

And of course I reloaded kit E+E. And it's promptly sold again. Let's wait and see..............




railNscale 'Een verrijking voor uw miniatuurwereld' railNscale.wordpress.com
Re: Preventing Rejections [message #80379 is a reply to message #80351 ] Tue, 03 December 2013 00:39 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar dcyale  is currently offline dcyale
Messages: 138
Registered: February 2013
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Sounds like you have been bit by the same thing that got me several times in the past. You have an STL that successfully prints and use it as a "sub-model" in another STL, and it gets rejected. I found that in the vast majority of the time the design did violate a design rule and I was just lucky the first time.

I am not sure of the complaint though. Are you saying that the model violates the guidelines, but since the model printed OK as part of another model in the past SW should simply waive the guidelines for the new model, or are you saying that the model meets the guidelines and the rejection is in error.

Dave Yale
Re: Preventing Rejections [message #80388 is a reply to message #80379 ] Tue, 03 December 2013 04:09 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar Mechanoid  is currently offline Mechanoid
Messages: 120
Registered: October 2010
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Dale,

It's not always that a model violates any rules or guidelines. It is seen by someone as being questionable. And for that reason alone the Service Team WILL reject a model.

Now let me say that one more time.

""A model does NOT have to violate any of the design guidelines or rules to be rejected.""

"They just have to think that there may be an issue in post production, and they will reject your working model."

Someone simply has to say they "fear" something would happen to it. post production. I have had several models here of late that has happened too. I have several models that someone in the Service Team simply looks at wrong and rejects the model making claims that do not exists in the model. I have disputed their wild fantasies and they are once again back to the same old reply.

"Although the model is printable, there is a likely chance of the engines
breaking at the points where it's thinner. It would be really helpful if you
can make some changes to this model."

Design guideline says 0.8mm wall, new guideline 1.0mm wire. The point being mentioned was 0.97. And that was because they didn't check it straight 180 degrees from the 2 points on a round shaft. The Service Team has also stated they (meaning ShapeWays), have the right to increase the size of a model by 15% during production. But god help you if you are 0.029mm below on a false measurement check. They will shut your model off, you dispute it and they lock the model so no updated files can be uploaded.

No two people are checking the same model the same way. They have no tolerance guide for a model. Now let me make this clear, I have mentioned this before too several people. With no response. When designing a model you set it too 47.00mm long, when you upload the model it is now 46.99mm long. I have noticed this on several models. Where their system is rounding down the measurements. Never rounding up, just down. I have had to start changing designs to be over the desired limit. Knowing their system will round it back down. And sometimes when a model gets rounded down, it makes some details, walls or even wires 0.01mm below their guidelines that they absolutely refuse to admit that is happening and allow it anyways.

So once again you have to test print every single model, because the Service Team now refuses to help you with a model issues. Where you have 6 identical models, but something was added too each file making it different. I have one set of private models, 6 variants. 4 they will print, 2 they rejected for a part that is on all 6 models. And that they did not correctly check the detail, instead mistaking it for an unsupported wire, though it's not.

It has gotten where disputing anything with the Service Team, is much like beating your head on a brick. Atleast with the brick you know at some point it's going to break. Now whether you can stay awake till that point, that's another point altogether.


I.D.I.C. = Infinite Diversity in Infinite Combinations
Re: Preventing Rejections [message #80400 is a reply to message #80388 ] Tue, 03 December 2013 10:51 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar MitchellJetten  is currently offline MitchellJetten
Messages: 801
Registered: June 2011
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I work here
Quote:

The Service Team has also stated they (meaning ShapeWays), have the right to increase the size of a model by 15% during production.


I'm really interested to see where you have seen or heard this.
Shapeways does not resize or alter models!

The only option where this might happen is Stainless Steel where they will be printed slightly(!) bigger to compensate for shrinkage but this is no way near 15%.

Quote:

Design guideline says 0.8mm wall, new guideline 1.0mm wire. The point being mentioned was 0.97.

&

"Although the model is printable, there is a likely chance of the engines
breaking at the points where it's thinner. "



Just like stated: the printer should be able to print your model without any issues, however during cleaning and shipping this part might break.
At this point you are not talking about printability (design rules) but more about manufacturability.
In short this means: are we able to produce this model several times from printing to the customer receiving it without failing.


@RailNScale, I'm sorry I haven't been able to dig into this yet :( , however I did check the screenshot you have attached:
Quote:

Now, (a) is rejected for having a socalled too thin wire. Well it's hardly a wire, and the way SW measures geometry is arguable.


The part is 0.53mm thick and it seems that the length is more than twice its width and thus considered a wire.


We are working hard to align the way checking is done but I do agree that we are not consistent enough in doing so, yet.

Best,
Mitchell

[Updated on: Tue, 03 December 2013 13:59 UTC] by Moderator


Kind regards,

Mitchell Jetten
Customer Service Coordinator
Shapeways
Re: Preventing Rejections [message #80413 is a reply to message #80400 ] Tue, 03 December 2013 15:13 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar Mechanoid  is currently offline Mechanoid
Messages: 120
Registered: October 2010
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I stand slightly corrected. It is not 15% it was infact 0.15%. As it was sent in an email concerning material and a series of models that did not come out right. And how WSF material can make a model larger in accuracy. There, I have now corrected my statement.

"My colleague indeed had a look at this and as far he could see the models are still within the design
rules. We mention on the material page for White Strong & Flexible that the accuracy can be 0.15%."

And from what I was told, means that the material can indeed make a model larger. And with that being the case, One must ask why then does the Service Team go postal over 0.01mm that the model was shrunk by during the meer uploading process?

No Mr. Jetten, I am not trying to start trouble. Just stating that which has been stated so clearly to me in emails. I noticed though you didn't address any aspect of my comments concerning a model being down scaled by the ShapeWays computers during upload. The problem is, what is stated to me in emails does not always translate to reality. Yes I didn't post the correct % number. I admit that error. I had to go back to find the email in which that was mentioned. But now I have it saved and will keep it for future reference.

I have 2 models on a recent order that were for every sense of the word, identical. Only in one model file the ships had cargo boxes on top, the other model did not. The model without the boxes on top printed without going back to be rechecked even once, from what I could see on me end watching the models process from checking to production to done. The one with these boxes on top however WAS rejected. The cargo boxes were not the issue the rejection issue was the engines. Both models have the same engines. Yet it was the one with the boxes that got rejected for being 0.971mm instead of being 1.000mm. Yes I added the last number, because the size difference was 0.029mm. I even tried pointing this out and was rebuffed with the rejection stands.

I maybe could have understood the rejection if the engine section was 5mm long, meaning the length could have broken it off. But it's 2.5mm long. The 0.971mm measurement is nearly half the engines overall length. I don't get 2 99% identical models ordered at the same time, 1 gets rejected, the other prints, both have the same measurement on the engines. This is almost like my 9 Tin Cans model. One thought it was an unsupported detail, one thought it was an unsupported wall, and you thought it was an unsupported wire. But the model printed without you having to force print it. Do you remember that?

The Service Team still has no tolerance guideline to take into account that your computer system will down scale a model by 0.01mm, if it looks at the measurements of the model and determines that the numbers for x, y and or z axis are not greater than 0.67% of 0.01mm. it will round down that measurement to the next whole number. Meaning that if you upload a mode that is 47.00mm in length as it appears on your computer system. But the true measurement is 46.9966mm, the ShapeWays computer system will down scale the size to 46.9900mm. Though I do have too admit, I've never seen the ShapeWays computer system round up those numbers. Only rounded down.


I.D.I.C. = Infinite Diversity in Infinite Combinations
Re: Preventing Rejections [message #80426 is a reply to message #80413 ] Tue, 03 December 2013 16:37 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar railNscale  is currently offline railNscale
Messages: 81
Registered: June 2013
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LS.,

I am a little puzzled about what SW-business model is. It seems that SW wants to be out of business within the next few years. At least we are actively looking for alternatives now.

Because SW -as a supplier- is not taking its responsibility. SW admits their process is far from consistent. SW knows this for many years.

The socalled design guidelines are guidelines. That makes sense especially since each design is more or less unique. A guideline is not a rule.
SW's reason for this is that they want to have an escape in case a model is not printable (even if the guidelines is followed-up for 100%).
But it also goes the other way aroud. I mean what is the point?
SW proofs (meanwhile a dozen times!) that a model can be printed, cleaned, is strong (as far as I understand can even be printed right away without issues).

Still SW is only interested in a knock-out criterium. Really hooked on it. Just to proof they are right. Like SW's statement: "The length is more than twice the thickness thus a wire." That the models are successfully printed anyways seem to be totally not of any interest.

Now 1.2 mm in length is really some wire....

But what is the point?

Should I simply delete the model instead? Because some person at SW thinks that a model cannot be printed? Is this SW's business model? Getting very bad comment all over the internet? Is that SW's mission?

Sounds like 'een paarse krokodil'. This has really nothing to do with service. 'We are here to help', 'Apologies', 'We understand you are frustrated'
Just meaningless expressions. SW doesn't act this way.




railNscale 'Een verrijking voor uw miniatuurwereld' railNscale.wordpress.com
Re: Preventing Rejections [message #80429 is a reply to message #80426 ] Tue, 03 December 2013 19:36 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar MitchellJetten  is currently offline MitchellJetten
Messages: 801
Registered: June 2011
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Senior Member
I work here
Quote:

Still SW is only interested in a knock-out criterium. Really hooked on it. Just to proof they are right. Like SW's statement: "The length is more than twice the thickness thus a wire." That the models are successfully printed anyways seem to be totally not of any interest.



Hold on here RailNScale, I have not said that I agree that the model is printable or not.
I have informed in the sentence above that I haven't had time to dig into the case and see if the exact same model has been printed before.

All I informed you is that "what is considered a wire".

Also regarding:
Quote:

SW proofs (meanwhile a dozen times!) that a model can be printed


I have explained this on the phone last time, and although I do understand your frustration: every model is checked again when having a different model ID. Thus for our system not recognized as "printed a dozen times".

Now for this model, I did see it has been ordered again and asked our production team to print it anyway ;)

Once again, and I'm sorry, I have not been able to dig into the case about it being printed in a different model set.

Cheers,
Mitchell


Kind regards,

Mitchell Jetten
Customer Service Coordinator
Shapeways
Re: Preventing Rejections [message #80438 is a reply to message #80388 ] Tue, 03 December 2013 20:58 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar FreeRangeBrain  is currently offline FreeRangeBrain
Messages: 234
Registered: April 2013
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"It's not always that a model violates any rules or guidelines. It is seen by someone as being questionable. And for that reason alone the Service Team WILL reject a model."

I can think of several examples of a model conforming to all specific rules, yet not being printable. One quick example: a barbell with a center spindle large enough to pass the minimum wire size rule, but with weights either end that would make the whole too fragile to survive processing and handling. It passes all the specific rules, yet will be rejected as a whole.


Creativity - sometimes by the brute force method.
Re: Preventing Rejections [message #80706 is a reply to message #62565 ] Sat, 07 December 2013 03:16 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar matt_atknsn  is currently offline matt_atknsn
Messages: 26
Registered: August 2011
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Junior Member
Quote:

""A model does NOT have to violate any of the design guidelines or rules to be rejected.""

"They just have to think that there may be an issue in post production, and they will reject your working model."


Here's mine, Frosted Detail material:
index.php?t=getfile&id=46759&private=0

Quote:

Here is why we cannot print your model:
The minimum supported wall thickness is &gt; 0.3mm for this material. Please thicken the walls of the model.


Upon asking service "what the criterias considered that made these as walls instead of being details?"

Quote:

Thanks for reaching out to us.
These spots are exposed and unsupported, making them easy to be broken off while cleaning. Thickening them will allow is to clean off the support material without them breaking.


Re: Preventing Rejections [message #81171 is a reply to message #80706 ] Thu, 12 December 2013 23:25 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar tebee  is currently offline tebee
Messages: 442
Registered: December 2010
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It would help if Shapeways informed us BEFORE they change criteria for rejection

Several times now the first I learn of a rule change is because one of my models is rejected because of it.

It would be even better if they consulted the designers first, but that's probably too much to ask.

Tom
Re: Preventing Rejections [message #81196 is a reply to message #80706 ] Fri, 13 December 2013 03:49 UTC Go to previous messageGo to previous message
avatar Roy_Stevens  is currently offline Roy_Stevens
Messages: 143
Registered: November 2009
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Senior Member
Quote:

Upon asking service "what the criterias considered that made these as walls instead of being details?"

Quote:

Thanks for reaching out to us.
These spots are exposed and unsupported, making them easy to be broken off while cleaning. Thickening them will allow is to clean off the support material without them breaking.




I've received this type of rejection before. When asked what they could possibly be doing to break off details such as this, I was informed that they poke and prod at our tiny detailed models with Q-tips!
I wish they would re-word this type of rejection as "Thank for modeling in FUD, but we really hate this material. Please come back when you want to sell some 1cm cubes in WSF."


Earl Grey, hot.

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