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Re: Preventing Rejections [message #76587 is a reply to message #76583 ] Fri, 11 October 2013 18:17 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar dcyale  is currently offline dcyale
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This sounds like a good idea. The only problem would be if part of the order was already in the printer. Different materials may hit production and be checked at different times.

I have called Customer Service and cancelled an entire order when one item was rejected, and upon re-ordering the order was bigger, so they made out.


They also offer you the chance to cancel an order from the "Orders" page, which I have used when I hit the order button and then realized I messed it up.

Dave
Re: Preventing Rejections [message #76603 is a reply to message #76587 ] Fri, 11 October 2013 23:40 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar stannum  is currently offline stannum
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Cancel in Orders page is only possible at the begining.

The Cancel if something fails would be as simple as check eveything before commiting the jobs. Yes, print problems will still happen, but all the other cases in which staff sees a problem will be gone.
Re: Preventing Rejections [message #76611 is a reply to message #76603 ] Sat, 12 October 2013 06:09 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar railNscale  is currently offline railNscale
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Well, that would be a major improvement.
The model checking bit is by far the most intransparant process step of SW.
Just by pre-check before actual ordering (read: paying) will make a real improvement.

The current situation at SW addresses all problems at the customers' side and really doesn't show the helpful face as suggested on the website. By telling 'we can't change orders', and 'an update will likely add costs to the product', does not show flexibility.

A second reason I'm not to keen on doing a lot of business at SW is the fact that all my payments seem to stick in credits. This is not so healthy since it will not motivate SW to do a lot about the current situation. The money is in anyhow. I prefer the 'no cure no pay' system.


rail N scale 'Een verrijking voor uw miniatuurwereld' railNscale.wordpress.com
Re: Preventing Rejections [message #76613 is a reply to message #76611 ] Sat, 12 October 2013 08:36 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar mkroeker  is currently offline mkroeker
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While payments "seem to stick in credits" by default, all it takes is a message to service to get them back to your bank (or paypal) account if you do
not plan to resubmit the order with a fixed model.
Re: Preventing Rejections [message #76631 is a reply to message #76613 ] Sat, 12 October 2013 14:42 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar Roy_Stevens  is currently offline Roy_Stevens
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While this is all well and good, I think it has been established that Shapeways service is top-notch and are willing to help with just about anything when a designer is ordering their own designs for the first time. I've had numerous occasions where they have refunded my shipping where all but one of my test prints were rejected, I've asked them to cancel the order - which they can't - and then ask them to refund the shipping because it's usually the $4 item that makes it through the inspection. I consider it part of the design process. The real breakdown happens when I'm trying to put on a professional appearance on my storefront with designs that have already made it through the inspection/printing process and should be ready for customer consumption.


Earl Grey, hot.
Re: Preventing Rejections [message #76634 is a reply to message #76631 ] Sat, 12 October 2013 15:05 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar AmLachDesigns  is currently offline AmLachDesigns
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Quote:

While this is all well and good, I think it has been established that Shapeways service is top-notch and are willing to help with just about anything when a designer is ordering their own designs for the first time.

I whole-heartedly agree. I just had a case almost exactly as you describe and I don't think anyone could have handled it better (thanks again, Gary!). I have not used other services but I would be surprised if they can match SW on this.

Quote:

The real breakdown happens when I'm trying to put on a professional appearance on my storefront with designs that have already made it through the inspection/printing process and should be ready for customer consumption.

Unfortunately, I also have to agree with this. The Manage Inventory seems to be unusable to me, and without more certainty on the reproduce-ability of models it is hard to invest much in shop promotion.

[Updated on: Sat, 12 October 2013 15:05 UTC]

Re: Preventing Rejections [message #76824 is a reply to message #62565 ] Wed, 16 October 2013 01:23 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar natalia  is currently offline natalia
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Hi guys,

I know this is always going to be a hot topic because of the many variations of rejections that are possible, but it's heartening to hear that many of you are working together with the service team to resolve issues on a case by case basis.

I know inconsistent rejections are infuriating. Your #1 ask from us is also our #1 priority to fix. I know we haven't posted in a while on what we are working on, so I wanted to share some updates since my last post

As I said then, we're working on making guidelines much better. This includes wall and wire definitions (which I know are particularly hard to define) and rewriting the design guidelines to be easier to understand and with less ambiguity. The more we are all on the same page about what can be consistently printed, the less chances we have of rejections (especially those that have been printed before).

Another big step is standardizing checking. This involves making sure every engineer everywhere is making the same decisions on whether or not to reject models. Right now, there are a certain amount of judgement calls involved in checking, and this causes the inconsistent rejections and printed before rejections. We are working hard to calibrate checking so every engineer is consistently making the same decisions about printability, and giving you enough feedback to be able to print your models going forward.

I know this isn't everything you want to hear, but I wanted to share that we ARE making progress, and each step is a step towards a future where you can confidently design and print amazing things.

Natalia

ps.
A little while ago, I posted this, as an insight into our process, and I wanted to share it again for those that are coming new into this discussion, and to share with you all the ways we are working hard to make this process better:

(from here its copy paste from our last message, no edits)

We have all talked a lot about implementing a "printed before" flag, and while this seems like a magic bullet, it is only a small part of a complex puzzle.

Because we want you to be able to create whatever you can imagine, we check every single ordered model to ensure that it will retain its quality during the production, cleaning, packing, and shipping processes. We want to work with you to resolve any potential issues that your model may have, and the way we (currently) do this is by sending rejection emails to help you improve your models.

Because we would love your help in resolving any issues that we find, we welcome and encourage you to contact us! It's absolutely worth emailing us if you disagree with the rejection reason so we can resolve it together. We'll be the first to admit that our processes are far from perfect, but as we are constantly working to improve, we would love to continue having conversations with you on this topic.

With that said, we would like to give you a bit of insight into our processes as we have several model checks in place. We investigate the production history and ensure quality at each of these production checks.

1. Automatic check on upload to ensure printability

2. Production
This is all about checking the model and flagging it for rejection. Going back to the "printed before" flag, I'm happy to say we now have the first step of this type of feature in our system. Specifically, we can now see how many successful prints there have been of a particular model version. Basically, if the rate is higher than 50% successful we will print it, and not reject it. And most importantly, this flagging only works for a specific model version.

When revising a model's design, make sure you update your model via uploading new file revisions on the model edit page, not by uploading a new model via the create page.

3. Supply Chain
Here we can modify the rejection reason, to give you more context or details. Our production checks involve us analyzing the production history for your specific model. Again, it is important to mention here that when revising a model's design, make sure you update your model via uploading new file revisions on the model edit page, not by uploading a new model (via the create page).

Like I mentioned earlier, this is not a 'be all, end all' system, but rather it is the beginning of having a comprehensive printed before flag. This is the only way we can keep track of your specific model and see that it has indeed been printed before. We are improving this process every single day, and we're trying hard to stay agile in refining our processes.

4. Customer service
The last place where we check models is in the customer service team. This is where we get to email you directly, so help us help you by emailing us back if you have questions about your rejection. We want to have these conversations with you!

Shopper rejections
We understand these are the most painful rejections because it is a bad experience for your customer and may damage your reputation as a designer/seller. There are a lot of great shops on Shapeways, and the best designers have adopted the procedure of test-printing their products before they offer them up for sale. This accomplishes a few important things:

1. It lets you make sure the model/design comes out exactly as you imagined it would.
2. It lets us have a record that it has, indeed, been printed successfully (at least) once.
3. It allows you to take a picture of the model/design. This greatly improves your product presentation and you are therefore more likely to make sales!

One last point to mention is our design guidelines. When you design crazy awesome models, we get to test if our machines can print them, and we all learn something. We want to work together to make sure your models are printed at the highest quality, and by the same token we always try to push our own limits through what you make. We then take these lessons and create design guidelines to help other people design things too.

We are excited to be able to announce that our community team recently grew in size, and one of our upcoming projects is to rewrite the design guidelines to be easier to understand and with less ambiguity. So stay tuned for that!

As many of you have pointed out, we are all in this together! We are learning to work with a new technology and we want to keep enabling you to print amazing things. Rejections are a way to learn, to improve, and to create the future together. Let's keep the conversation open and explore where we can go together.

Natalia, on behalf of Shapeways

[Updated on: Wed, 16 October 2013 15:24 UTC]


Shapeways Community Manager
Re: Preventing Rejections [message #76826 is a reply to message #76824 ] Wed, 16 October 2013 03:19 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar Roy_Stevens  is currently offline Roy_Stevens
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natalia wrote on Wed, 16 October 2013 01:23

Hi guys,

This is all about checking the model and flagging it for rejection. Going back to the "printed before" flag, I'm happy to say we now have the first step of this type of feature in our system. Specifically, we can now see how many successful prints there have been of a particular model version. Basically, if the rate is higher than 50% successful we will print it, and not reject it. And most importantly, this flagging only works for a specific model version

Natalia, on behalf of Shapeways


I'm very happy to hear that this will be implemented. Will you please make this success/failure rate visible to the designer?


Earl Grey, hot.
Re: Preventing Rejections [message #76835 is a reply to message #76824 ] Wed, 16 October 2013 07:17 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar AmLachDesigns  is currently offline AmLachDesigns
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Quote:

Shopper rejections

... There are a lot of great shops on Shapeways, and the best designers have adopted the procedure of test-printing their products before they offer them up for sale. This accomplishes a few important things:

1. It lets you make sure the model/design comes out exactly as you imagined it would.
2. It lets us have a record that it has, indeed, been printed successfully (at least) once.
3. It allows you to take a picture of the model/design. This greatly improves your product presentation and you are therefore more likely to make sales!

One last point to mention is our design guidelines. When you design crazy awesome models, we get to test if our machines can print them, and we all learn something. We want to work together to make sure your models are printed at the highest quality, and by the same token we always try to push our own limits through what you make. We then take these lessons and create design guidelines to help other people design things too.


Okay, I appreciate the efforts that you and your team go to to print Models that in theory should be rejected, and I have benefited from it myself. And I fully agree with creating test prints both to validate the model (from designer and SW perspective) and to provide photos for the Shop. But these two approaches can be mutually exclusive. If I am test printing a Model for my Shop which is expensive, then it does not benefit me really to have that production put through on a one-off basis. Yes I have the object to look at and check, but if I know (or worse, don't know) that it will be rejected the subsequent times then there is no point in photographing and possibly marketing that product, because first I must modify the Model and request another (expensive) test print.

There has to be a way to know that a specific Model will print and print reliably (occasional, normal snafus not withstanding). If there is a way to keep the 'we pushed the limits for you but please don't do it again' Models so much the better, but for me that is secondary. The economics of designing for shops demands it, I believe.

Thanks

[Edited 'counterproductive' to read 'mutually exclusive'.]

[Updated on: Wed, 16 October 2013 11:52 UTC]

Re: Preventing Rejections [message #76839 is a reply to message #76835 ] Wed, 16 October 2013 08:32 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar mkroeker  is currently offline mkroeker
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Perhaps you could add a checkbox on either the model or order page (the former probably makes more sense) "This is a shop item"/"Verify for repeated printing"/"Expect to see more than one order of this part" ?
Re: Preventing Rejections [message #76850 is a reply to message #76839 ] Wed, 16 October 2013 12:27 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar dcyale  is currently offline dcyale
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I like mkroeker's idea. When a design is ordered perhaps the designer could let shapeways know that it is designed for multiple sales- a kind of "be mean to this model" choice. That way shapeways avoids multiple failed print expenses on a marginal model, and the designer gets more assurance that the model will print when a customer orders it.

It also helps a developing designer, and I include myself in this category, to learn what will and won't work in a design and prevent the learning of bad habits. That is what happened to me- models that inadvertently violated the design guidelines successfully printed at the test stage, I offered them for sale, and subsequently they were rejected when a customer ordered them. It would have been so much better if they were rejected the first time and I had corrected them, and didn't make the same mistakes on the next few models I designed, which led to more rejections and redesign.

Dave Yale
Re: Preventing Rejections [message #76871 is a reply to message #76850 ] Wed, 16 October 2013 16:57 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar Roy_Stevens  is currently offline Roy_Stevens
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dcyale wrote on Wed, 16 October 2013 12:27

It would have been so much better if they were rejected the first time and I had corrected them, and didn't make the same mistakes on the next few models I designed, which led to more rejections and redesign.

Dave Yale


The question I have is whether your issues were really problems that caused failed prints or if they were just features that existed in the grey area between wall/wire/detail and were caught by an operator that wasn't feeling particularly helpful that day. I get those a lot, and if the 50% success rule is truly followed then all those problems will go away. This is why I think the designer needs to know the print success rate. If I see a model down below 75% success rate, maybe I need to take a look at the design.


Earl Grey, hot.
Re: Preventing Rejections [message #76873 is a reply to message #76871 ] Wed, 16 October 2013 17:11 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar dcyale  is currently offline dcyale
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The "defects" I am refereeing to in particular were in violation of the design guidelines. When I started I saw "guideline" I pushed a bit, not interpreting that as hard fast rules. For instance the one that still gets me is a wire I had that was square in shape but slightly thinner than the guideline. A "legal" round wire had less cross section than my square wire, but after a successful test print, photos, and offing it for sale it was rejected when a customer ordered. My argument fell on deaf ears at customer service. And, I my thought process was that it was OK as long as the cross section was there, thinking the strength should be the same, so I did it again on other models prior to the first model being rejected. All had to be corrected.

I understand and do not argue that Shapeways has to be able to have design rules, and different thicknesses for different cross section shapes is too completed to implement. I just wish my first model had been rejected instead of arriving in a box on my doorstep.

The suggestion I seconded is for Shapeways to allow designers to choose, and their technicians to know, that a model should be given hard and close scrutiny so that it has the best chance of being a robust and reliable design which benefits both the designer and shapeways.

Since then I have translated the word "guidelines" as "rules" and it has been better. I even have models that so far have printed every time!

Dave Yale

Re: Preventing Rejections [message #76884 is a reply to message #76873 ] Wed, 16 October 2013 18:16 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar Roy_Stevens  is currently offline Roy_Stevens
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dcyale wrote on Wed, 16 October 2013 17:11


I understand and do not argue that Shapeways has to be able to have design rules, and different thicknesses for different cross section shapes is too completed to implement. I just wish my first model had been rejected instead of arriving in a box on my doorstep.

Dave Yale



I would argue the opposite. If I can get a robust design that bends the rules past the checks first time out and then rely on the 50% success rule from then on out, I can put mullions back in my windows, brakes back on my trucks, and use tangent mates on curved surfaces. Things that I know from experience work well but get rejected by overzealous operators.


Earl Grey, hot.
Re: Preventing Rejections [message #76961 is a reply to message #76824 ] Thu, 17 October 2013 18:49 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar railNscale  is currently offline railNscale
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natalia wrote on Wed, 16 October 2013 01:23



Shopper rejections
We understand these are the most painful rejections because it is a bad experience for your customer and may damage your reputation as a designer/seller. There are a lot of great shops on Shapeways, and the best designers have adopted the procedure of test-printing their products before they offer them up for sale. This accomplishes a few important things:

1. It lets you make sure the model/design comes out exactly as you imagined it would.
2. It lets us have a record that it has, indeed, been printed successfully (at least) once.
3. It allows you to take a picture of the model/design. This greatly improves your product presentation and you are therefore more likely to make sales!




As you can see all models in our shop were ordered by us before putting them on sale. All models. However for some models we made SETs consisting of multiple models that were all ordered succesfully before. Reason for these sets: N-scale models are so small that the start-up costs are higher than the actual material price.
Still we get occasionally rejections. This is just not acceptable. I fear it's ruining your reputation. Really SW has to implement a 'build before' flag and has to accept that if models were succesfully printed before they just are printable. And I'd like to see this flag being showed at any model that was printed before Visible for everyone.


rail N scale 'Een verrijking voor uw miniatuurwereld' railNscale.wordpress.com
Re: Preventing Rejections [message #76981 is a reply to message #76961 ] Fri, 18 October 2013 07:35 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar MitchellJetten is currently online MitchellJetten
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Hi railNscale,

I have explained this on a dutch forum to you as well.
We do have a "Printed Before" system.

But the issue is uploading models in a set and then separating them.
Quote:

However for some models we made SETs consisting of multiple models that were all ordered succesfully before.


Like previously explained, a model will only have a Printed Before if that model ID has been printed before.
This means that if you first print a set and then separate the pieces and upload them individually, it will lose the Printed Before flag.

We print hundreds of models every single day, unfortunately our production team is unable to remember every model and be like "we have printed this same model in a set (different model ID) 2 weeks before".

Please do note: this doesn't mean that you aren't right, because yes, our system needs to change and we do need a better system.
But by first printing a set and then offering the parts individually removes the printed before flag.


Kind regards,

Mitchell Jetten
Customer Service Coordinator
Shapeways
Re: Preventing Rejections [message #76983 is a reply to message #76981 ] Fri, 18 October 2013 08:07 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar railNscale  is currently offline railNscale
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Well, I've sold 4 models yesterday (hurray good day).
3 out of 4 were rejected because SW suddenly sees problems. Yes the models were printed before.
Of course I got already e-mails by foreign customers asking what's going on.
And you can guess what happens on fora......

What's wrong with SW?

It is really insulting to get informed via the backdoor that my models couldn't be printed for a customer.

SW really has to change the work-around a.s.a.p. Let's start with FIRST consulting the designer.

As designer I already get hardly any information about the printing process. What about other people who decided to buy something via the internet?
It's nice to read that SW is concerned about the quality of their prints. One major thing SW doesn't seem to think about is their designers/customers.

I must say it's almost end-of-experiment by me.


rail N scale 'Een verrijking voor uw miniatuurwereld' railNscale.wordpress.com
Re: Preventing Rejections [message #77006 is a reply to message #76983 ] Fri, 18 October 2013 15:47 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar Roy_Stevens  is currently offline Roy_Stevens
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railNscale wrote on Fri, 18 October 2013 08:07

Well, I've sold 4 models yesterday (hurray good day).
3 out of 4 were rejected because SW suddenly sees problems. Yes the models were printed before.




This tells me that someone wasn't being truthful when we were told that the 'printed before' flag was being followed. I lost my cool this morning when the third update I had done to a model to address fabricated issues was rejected again because they measured a wire at the thin point of a taper. I have a dozen of these models sitting on my workbench, the design is (to me) obviously robust enough to print. I can't be chasing my tail every time someone decides that what I've designed looks too complicated. That's the point of rapid prototyping. If it wasn't complicated I'd be having it injection molded in China right now.


Earl Grey, hot.
Re: Preventing Rejections [message #77064 is a reply to message #76983 ] Sat, 19 October 2013 10:31 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar mkroeker  is currently offline mkroeker
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"Printed before" as in "exactly this model file" ?
Still I wonder if shapeways could modify their rejection process for third-party orders - perhaps contact the designer first and give him a 24 hour grace
period to rebut spurious rejections (wrong measurements, exact same model printed before under another model number) ?
Re: Preventing Rejections [message #77076 is a reply to message #77064 ] Sat, 19 October 2013 13:49 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar NickHawkins  is currently offline NickHawkins
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mkroeker wrote on Sat, 19 October 2013 10:31

"Printed before" as in "exactly this model file" ?
Still I wonder if shapeways could modify their rejection process for third-party orders - perhaps contact the designer first and give him a 24 hour grace
period to rebut spurious rejections (wrong measurements, exact same model printed before under another model number) ?

This is tricky to do for a global business where designer, purchaser and factory may be in different time zones, how would you measure the 24 hours response time?
Also how, exactly, do you classify a spurious rejection? and what happens if the fixed file costs more to print than the original?

I've learnt where I can bend the guidelines and what shapes have to be designed conservatively, gaining this experience was a rough trip at times and I still don't get it right all the time but I'm reasonably happy with the current system.
Re: Preventing Rejections [message #77078 is a reply to message #77076 ] Sat, 19 October 2013 14:49 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar dcyale  is currently offline dcyale
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The time frame is tricky, however everyone keeps bringing up "What if the corrected models costs more?" That's easy in concept, although a complete software rewrite, and therefore hard, to implement- The additional cost could come out of the designer's mark up assuming there is a mark up and it is enough. I would rather take a profit hit than look bad to a customer.

It would have to be restricted to models that had successfully printed in the past, though, as a new model could have MANY problems, especially if done by a new designer- like my first models did.

In this business model it would have been nice to have implemented in the beginning.

Dave Yale
Re: Preventing Rejections [message #77083 is a reply to message #77006 ] Sat, 19 October 2013 17:06 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar stop4stuff  is currently offline stop4stuff
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I lost my cool several months ago - the doctor reckons I should be back to 'normal' by July next year (2014 - yes seriously, though a lot of other stuff is involved, Shapeways was one of those bricks in the wall that caused my head to break).

I PM'd Natalia a few days ago, but have yet to receive a response.

From what I see, sitting on the sidelines, is a lot of 'Ra-Ra' speak with very little action.

I mentioned to Anna, a long time ago, that I saw Shapeways headed the same way as Microsoft - release now, fix later attitude - and I still see the same.

I have a question for Shapeways.

Why is it that you, Shapeways, listen to your customers, make a the right noises about what you have listened to, but yet have not paid a single bit of notice to a single word?

Going forward... a few suggestions.
- General
Release everthing to your Beta testers (I gave that up as another pointless head banging exercise, as the most important changes were not live to Beta testers)
Listen to and act promptly on feedback.
Do not crow about investment funding without crowing about definite fixes that are live.
Do not (repeatedly) say 'Yep, its on the todo list' when the issue is never going to be resolved (e.g. USD/Euro nonsense)

- Specifically about rejections.
I have been asking for a very long time for clear and open communitcation between production partners and designers when a rejection occurs - impliment this. I should save a lot of time, confusion and frustration getting a messge from the horse's mouth rather than 'he said, she said' via a 3rd party (i.e. Shapeways Customer Sevices).

If you (Shapeways) are able to make a statement about a improvement then bloody make sure the imrovement works before telling everyone that it's good to go - do not tell your customers that the printed before flag is in place when clearly it is not.

Shapeways, your customers are the designers, without designers there would be no products for sale.
So please don't alienate your customers with dodgy practices.

Paul
Re: Preventing Rejections [message #77086 is a reply to message #77076 ] Sat, 19 October 2013 18:26 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar mkroeker  is currently offline mkroeker
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NickHawkins wrote on Sat, 19 October 2013 13:49

This is tricky to do for a global business where designer, purchaser and factory may be in different time zones, how would you measure the 24 hours response time?

I am aware of the timezone problem, and one can probably name a hundred perfectly normal situations where it is impossible for the designer to act within 24 hours, but it might be a trade-off that helps resolve some of the current problems without imposing too much administrational effort at shapeways (i.e. a measure that could be put in place without much discussion and reorganization).

Quote:

Also how, exactly, do you classify a spurious rejection?

Those where a shapeways engineer misplaced the reference points in netfabb, or decided that some negligible detail would not print perfectly (I think Mr.Nib mentioned such cases with his pen blanks recently)

Quote:

and what happens if the fixed file costs more to print than the original?

My suggestion specifically covers the case where no fixing of the file is involved - where the designer only needs a chance to tell shapeways that their engineer made a mistake, or to prove that the model or detail in question was already printed successfully as part of another model file. (A connection that we cannot expect the shapeways engineers to make, unless their database software were upgraded to perform a 3d similarity search on models)

Quote:

I've learnt where I can bend the guidelines and what shapes have to be designed conservatively, gaining this experience was a rough trip at times and I still don't get it right all the time but I'm reasonably happy with the current system.


Fully agreed - it seems to me that most problems arise where both the designer and shapeways are proud to create something right on the edge of their current capabilities, and then learn that it is not reproducible during everyday operations. (See PopeDesign's thread in the general forum about his miniature bulldozers that were featured models once and rejected later when ordered by others).
Re: Preventing Rejections [message #77087 is a reply to message #77086 ] Sat, 19 October 2013 18:40 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar stop4stuff  is currently offline stop4stuff
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mkroeker wrote on Sat, 19 October 2013 18:26

...

Fully agreed - it seems to me that most problems arise where both the designer and shapeways are proud to create something right on the edge of their current capabilities, and then learn that it is not reproducible during everyday operations. (See PopeDesign's thread in the general forum about his miniature bulldozers that were featured models once and rejected later when ordered by others).



Exactly why I have been asking for clear & consise communication from Shapeways' production partners.

Exactly what happened with some OO scale phone boxes, featured no less than twice on Shapeways and once in Hornby Magazine.

Another question for Shapeways.

At what point during the '50% fail = no print' exercise does the designer get informed as to what issues there may be before the 50% limit is hit?

Paul
Re: Preventing Rejections [message #77098 is a reply to message #77083 ] Sat, 19 October 2013 23:25 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar MitchellJetten is currently online MitchellJetten
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stop4stuff wrote on Sat, 19 October 2013 17:06


I PM'd Natalia a few days ago, but have yet to receive a response.



Natalia is @ the Dutch Design Week this week.
I'm sure she will answer the PM after the event Smile

Mitchell (1:24am here)


Kind regards,

Mitchell Jetten
Customer Service Coordinator
Shapeways
Re: Preventing Rejections [message #77100 is a reply to message #77083 ] Sat, 19 October 2013 23:37 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar stannum  is currently offline stannum
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24 hours? It could also be 72 (and weekends don't count)... it's just 3d printing, not life or death!

stop4stuff wrote on Sat, 19 October 2013 17:06

- Specifically about rejections.
I have been asking for a very long time for clear and open communitcation between production partners and designers when a rejection occurs - impliment this. I should save a lot of time, confusion and frustration getting a messge from the horse's mouth rather than 'he said, she said' via a 3rd party (i.e. Shapeways Customer Sevices).


You are not alone when asking about proactive actions* instead of always waiting for the big rush... and then have plenty of final customers think SW and the designer suck. The signals are mixed: officially promoted items, tutorials about using advertising, advice that photographed items sell better... but no warranties that all those is not just a waste of designer's resources.

*: Keep modellers informed of reprints so everybody knows something is not 100% sucessful, not just the backoffice. Show photos of failures to understand why. Etc.
Re: Preventing Rejections [message #77112 is a reply to message #77100 ] Sun, 20 October 2013 07:37 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar AmLachDesigns  is currently offline AmLachDesigns
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SW seems to love paradoxes like:

Only by printing your Model can you prove it is printable and get the photos you need to promote it.

BUT

By printing your Model once we in no way warrant that it will print again.


And:

You need to work hard on your shop to get a coherent design and present your Models in the best possible light.

BUT

The tools we give you to achieve that are not good and in fact have taken a backwards step. (Oh and btw the Models might not print anyway.)



[Updated on: Sun, 20 October 2013 09:10 UTC]

Re: Preventing Rejections [message #77116 is a reply to message #77100 ] Sun, 20 October 2013 10:27 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar MitchellJetten is currently online MitchellJetten
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Hey all,

railNscale wrote on Fri, 18 October 2013 08:07

Well, I've sold 4 models yesterday (hurray good day).
3 out of 4 were rejected because SW suddenly sees problems. Yes the models were printed before.
Of course I got already e-mails by foreign customers asking what's going on.
And you can guess what happens on fora......



Just wanted to inform you that I have had a phone call with railNscale and explained the issues.
Those didn't have a "Printed Before" flag.
Although one rejection was doubtful (sprue rejection)

The other rejections are, unfortunately, valid due to a part sticking which is printable, but will always break during cleaning/shipping.
The part sticking out was not on his previously successful print.

stannum wrote on Sat, 19 October 2013 23:37



*: Keep modellers informed of reprints so everybody knows something is not 100% sucessful, not just the backoffice. Show photos of failures to understand why. Etc.


I like the idea of sending an automated email if your model is being reprinted!! (lemme bug some people)
Though it happens from time to time that the model breaks during cleaning which is not your models fault but the person doing the cleaning.

In that case you would receive an email that the model is being reprinted and thus probably giving you the feeling that something is wrong.
Same goes for tray crashes.

But I'm sure we can define those "reprints" better and only inform you when it has something to do with your model.

--

Also on a personal note:

I have not had a rejection in at least a year in my personal train shop (www.spoorobjecten.nl) and still do sell around 100 to 200 models a month.
This is mainly cause i try to stay way above the design rules without making the model look bad.
(for example, my trains have a wall thickness of 0.8mm in FUD, yes i can go lower, but 0.8mm is good for strength and I'm on the save side)


Kind regards,

Mitchell Jetten
Customer Service Coordinator
Shapeways
Re: Preventing Rejections [message #77128 is a reply to message #77100 ] Sun, 20 October 2013 12:22 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
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stannum wrote on Sat, 19 October 2013 23:37

24 hours? It could also be 72 (and weekends don't count)... it's just 3d printing, not life or death!


Just tossing a number here - could be 72 or anything, but we probably need to find a balance somewhere, so that shapeways does not get buried in pending orders. ("Until noon of the next business day, NY timezone" ? That would still allow someone at shapeways to conclude the affected order without much delay iff my idea is feasible at all)
stop4stuff wrote on Sat, 19 October 2013 17:06


I have been asking for a very long time for clear and open communitcation between production partners and designers


Production partners may be another, bigger can of worms - how forthcoming are they about production problems, how much additional fluctuations in personnel and production quality may be encountered there ?
Re: Preventing Rejections [message #77130 is a reply to message #77083 ] Sun, 20 October 2013 12:29 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar mkroeker  is currently offline mkroeker
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stop4stuff wrote on Sat, 19 October 2013 17:06


Do not crow about investment funding without crowing about definite fixes that are live.


I used to be annoyed by this (and the "US flag waving") as well, until I concluded that it is probably directed (however indirectly) at an entirely different audience - investors who want to rise with the next bubble, and may not even care about how or if 3d printing works, as long as it a hot topic everywhere and they see that other investors put their faith (i.e. money) in it.

Re: Preventing Rejections [message #77162 is a reply to message #77116 ] Mon, 21 October 2013 00:14 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
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MitchellJetten wrote on Sun, 20 October 2013 10:27


But I'm sure we can define those "reprints" better and only inform you when it has something to do with your model.


The idea is about real failures, not spamming the designers every time the cat trips the power cord.

Quote:


(for example, my trains have a wall thickness of 0.8mm in FUD, yes i can go lower, but 0.8mm is good for strength and I'm on the save side)


It sure saves the issues with cylinders (high face count prisms), where a 0.01mm difference becomes a reject.
Re: Preventing Rejections [message #77290 is a reply to message #77162 ] Tue, 22 October 2013 14:38 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar Vidalcris  is currently offline Vidalcris
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Just one more funny rejection i received ...
Look like purple is harder to make than blue Wink lol
index.php?t=getfile&id=43395&private=0


Re: Preventing Rejections [message #77292 is a reply to message #77290 ] Tue, 22 October 2013 14:48 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar mkroeker  is currently offline mkroeker
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Judging from that list, the blue one has not been checked yet - the model appears to be private, but what little can be seen
from the thumbnail suggests it may be too fragile to survive the mandatory polishing step.
Re: Preventing Rejections [message #77295 is a reply to message #77292 ] Tue, 22 October 2013 14:51 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar Vidalcris  is currently offline Vidalcris
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Ok you can protect Shapeways if you want Wink
I created those models one years ago and i printed them using shapeways, Sculpteo & private printers.
so i already printed them around 40 times.
But anyway you are right this is impossible to print Rolling Eyes


Re: Preventing Rejections [message #77299 is a reply to message #77295 ] Tue, 22 October 2013 15:00 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar mkroeker  is currently offline mkroeker
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Not protecting anyone, just an observation - as far as I know, a model in the "Processing" step is queued for checking (i.e., the money
has been received - payments by bank transfer take a few days), just as "In Production" does not actually mean you can already see it
growing in a printer somewhere.
Also bear in mind that shapeways changed their dyeing process a while ago, so any earlier models you received - or those received
from competing services - may not have been polished. (Probably a case of "you can get it in any color here, as long as that color is
black" - as black strong&flexible is still dyed without polishing.)
Re: Preventing Rejections [message #77300 is a reply to message #77299 ] Tue, 22 October 2013 15:06 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar Vidalcris  is currently offline Vidalcris
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You are right how can you protect a firm that dont change the price but change the process and then become worst, that's really awesome...
Thanks a lot Shapeways for improving your services Laughing


Re: Preventing Rejections [message #77302 is a reply to message #77295 ] Tue, 22 October 2013 15:08 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
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I had another rejection because of the raised lettering on a copyright notice. Funny thing is the model prints fine in 1/87 scale, and the rejected model is in 1/64 scale from the same master design, so the lettering is actually bigger. I guess that is a case of the "previously printed" flag saving me on the 1/87 scale version.

Not a big deal- I'll just remove the copyright notice. In the size of my models I don't think it's possible to have a raised letter design that passes the guidelines in SWF, even though many of my older models have it. I don't bother anymore on the newer ones in SWF.

I have come to the conclusion that as long as I push right against the design guidelines I am going to have rejections like this. It is simply inevitable with a human being in the process.

Dave Yale
Re: Preventing Rejections [message #77303 is a reply to message #77300 ] Tue, 22 October 2013 15:08 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar Vidalcris  is currently offline Vidalcris
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Just for information Scultpeo can print the same models 2x smaller without any problem...


Re: Preventing Rejections [message #77306 is a reply to message #77300 ] Tue, 22 October 2013 15:14 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar mkroeker  is currently offline mkroeker
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How about opening a new thread here in Suggestions about wanting the unpolished colors back ? Probably better than turning this
one into a general rage thread once again. Confused (And I seem to remember that change of process was far from universally applauded when they came up with it... so it might make sense for all involved to get some kind of opinion poll going.)
Re: Preventing Rejections [message #77308 is a reply to message #77303 ] Tue, 22 October 2013 15:29 UTC Go to previous messageGo to previous message
avatar AmLachDesigns  is currently offline AmLachDesigns
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Vidalcris wrote on Tue, 22 October 2013 15:08

Just for information Scultpeo can print the same models 2x smaller without any problem...

It's a bit difficult to say anything factual until you know why they were rejected.

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