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Preventing Rejections - Update on Project Caterpillar [message #62565] Fri, 22 February 2013 01:56 UTC Go to next message
avatar Roy_Stevens  is currently offline Roy_Stevens
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So a typical product cycle goes like this: I design and refine a new product, print it, occasionally refine it more, print it again, post-process the print including paint, take good photos, upload them, spend some time getting the word out on my new product on message boards, and then the customers start purchasing it and Shapeways REJECTS THE PRINTS!. So all my time is wasted, my name is mud, and I look like a fool. And this has happened more than once. I'm well aware of the design rules and follow them, (thus the I get the prints first time around) but it doesn't seem to matter. So what can I do to prevent this? Are there other services available that don't seem bent on making their designers look like idiots?

[Updated on: Wed, 09 July 2014 16:24 UTC] by Moderator


Earl Grey, hot.
Re: Preventing Rejections [message #62591 is a reply to message #62565 ] Fri, 22 February 2013 12:24 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar Dragoman  is currently offline Dragoman
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Unfortunately, this happens to a lot of designers - including me Sad . Major nuisance.
But Shapeways are working to reduce this problem by marking models as "Successfully printed" to make sure they ae not rejected later.

This usually happens when items are designed close to the limits of the design rules. For each print, the item is checked by an operator and some are a bit stricter than others.

Keep complaining about this! Hopefully, Shapeways will end up developing consistent processes.

In the meantime, there's nothing left but repairing the problem item quickly, put up an apology note as comment for the model and explain things to the customer (if you know who she/he is).

Greetings
Dragoman

Re: Preventing Rejections [message #62953 is a reply to message #62591 ] Thu, 28 February 2013 14:47 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar Mark W  is currently offline Mark W
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Dragoman wrote on Fri, 22 February 2013 12:24

...Shapeways are working to reduce this problem by marking models as "Successfully printed" to make sure they are not rejected later.


I sincerely hope this is true. My process is similar to Roy Stevens and it gets very frustrating when, after several dozen successful prints you receive the "Could not be printed" notice.

I've not been able to offer anything new because all my time is spent maintaining what has already been proven printable, yet keeps getting rejected.

Come on Shapeways! Let's move forward, not backward! Sad
Re: Preventing Rejections [message #62954 is a reply to message #62565 ] Thu, 28 February 2013 14:52 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar Youknowwho4eva  is currently offline Youknowwho4eva
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I can tell you that we are progressing to a solution. I can't tell you when or what to expect. From what I have seen, it'll be up to your expectations and maybe even beyond.


I learned a long time ago the wisest thing I can do is be on my own side, be an advocate for myself and others like me. -Maya Angelou
michael@shapeways.com Community Advocate
Re: Preventing Rejections [message #62959 is a reply to message #62954 ] Thu, 28 February 2013 15:24 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar Roy_Stevens  is currently offline Roy_Stevens
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I hope that 'when' is soon. It would be nice to be able to request that a new or existing design be subjected to a validation process, and then not have to worry about it ever again.


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Re: Preventing Rejections [message #63018 is a reply to message #62954 ] Fri, 01 March 2013 12:19 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar stop4stuff  is currently offline stop4stuff
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Currently, the prduction team willnot/cannot print my Twin Rail Mobius Pendant - small in silver, although before the Christams rush, many had been printed with no reported issues.
Since then every one has been rejected for a variety of reasons, it was only last week that Joost conveyed to me the real reason as to why - the production team want me to add bars to the model to aid the silver flow... hang on isn't that what part of the handling fee is for? I have no knowledge about adding sprues or vents to aid the silver flow Sad

Anyhow since then another rejection has come through
Reason: Can not be cleaned
Additional information: to fragile, will bend


What can't be cleaned? The wax print or the silver model?
And if the silver wires bend, it's no big deal as they are 1.3mm diameter and will bend back easily.

So, in addition to a 'printed before' or whatever flag, the communication about a reason for rejection needs to be clear and not change every time (the model hasn't changed since the day I uploaded the original),

Cheers,
Paul

[Updated on: Fri, 01 March 2013 12:23 UTC]

Re: Preventing Rejections [message #63097 is a reply to message #62565 ] Sat, 02 March 2013 14:11 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar Nathan2012  is currently offline Nathan2012
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I have also had a similar problem to everyone else here. A customer who bought 2 prints of a model ordered a third, but received the message that it could not be printed, even though he received the first two no problem. I then received an email saying the model could not be printed because of thin walls. the diagram attached to the email showing the problem parts points to a section of the model, highlighting it as 0.8 mm. This is incorrect. It measures 1mm on all faces, so it is Shapeways who have made a mistake on a part which is perfectly printable.

Re: Preventing Rejections [message #63103 is a reply to message #63097 ] Sat, 02 March 2013 16:37 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar stop4stuff  is currently offline stop4stuff
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Nathan2012, do you the rejection image you can share?

I have had a similar rejecion in the past, however the operator used the wrong tool for the measurement, they measured point to point rather than wall thickness. That was a simple mistake, which was rectified and the model printed.

Paul


Re: Preventing Rejections [message #63113 is a reply to message #63103 ] Sat, 02 March 2013 19:43 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar Nathan2012  is currently offline Nathan2012
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I am having problems uploading the image. Looking at a larger version of the image I can now see the highlighted figure is actually 1mm. What is wrong with this? This is the minimum thickness they go on to suggest in the email!

[Updated on: Sat, 02 March 2013 19:48 UTC]

Re: Preventing Rejections [message #63114 is a reply to message #63103 ] Sat, 02 March 2013 19:50 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar Mark W  is currently offline Mark W
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I had another model rejected yesterday. Again, a model that has printed successfully at least 30 times.

The rejection is based on wire minimums. According to the design guidelines:
How to design thin, unsupported wires:
"0.3mm-0.6mm wire thickness: keep under 6mm wire length"
http://www.shapeways.com/materials/frosted-detail-design-gui delines

http://i.imgur.com/8ZgmHx8.jpg

Here I have .44mm wires supported at multiple points. True, the supporting points are closer to 6.6mm apart, however this should still be well within the acceptable tolerance, ESPECIALLY for a model with a numerous printable history.
(At least I would consider about 30 prints to be numerous Rolling Eyes )

Here are some photos of one of my successful prints. The same photos that accompany the model on the product page:
http://www.shapeways.com/model/651286/n-scale-42-dry-bulk-tr ailer-2-pack-kit.html

http://i.imgur.com/50QAF.jpg

Careful observers will notice the railing for the ladder is broken. More careful observers will notice the thickness for the railing parts are thinner than the ladder. And further yet, clever observers will notice that in the rejection photo above I had thickened the railings to match the ladder. Finally, I'll admit that it was me that broke those railings during cleaning Sad But notice that the overall ladder assembly is printed PERFECTLY.
http://i.imgur.com/bB5T6.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/fBZfy.jpg


I think the best test should be, does the product have accompanying photos of a successful print?
Then why perform the manual check? Shouldn't that be sufficient proof?

Additionally, this model was ordered and printed more than a dozen times! THAT, should be definitive proof.

Re: Preventing Rejections [message #63124 is a reply to message #62954 ] Sat, 02 March 2013 22:00 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar Mark W  is currently offline Mark W
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Youknowwho4eva wrote on Thu, 28 February 2013 14:52

I can tell you that we are progressing to a solution. I can't tell you when or what to expect. From what I have seen, it'll be up to your expectations and maybe even beyond.


Great to hear Youknowwho.

This is a rough outline, but it closely models my suggestion for this process.
http://i.imgur.com/odtUjuCh.jpg
The standing question would be what is considered "Tolerable". I would suggest to have the checkers error on the side of pass, and deliver the resulting model. As a serious designer, once I see and hold the model in hand and can physically observe the tolerance areas identified by the checker, I would be MUCH more motivated to refine appropriately and ultimately produce a quality design that would profit both me and Shapeways. (Win-Win)

When the design is rejected based on virtual dimensions, I am given the ability to doubt, scoff, and never return. We usually call this a Lose-Lose situation.
Re: Preventing Rejections [message #63186 is a reply to message #62565 ] Mon, 04 March 2013 14:37 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar Youknowwho4eva  is currently offline Youknowwho4eva
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The problem with your chart is the mildly successful prints. A failure can cause a whole tray of production to be lost, can cost hours, and can damage the printer. Problem 2, which is part of our thinking on the solution to some issues, is what you might find acceptable, another customer may not. So if you have a piece with thin rails that ships to you ok, we also have to be able to ship it across the world to arrive ok. And you may accept a broken rail, but a customer may want a reprint.


I learned a long time ago the wisest thing I can do is be on my own side, be an advocate for myself and others like me. -Maya Angelou
michael@shapeways.com Community Advocate
Re: Preventing Rejections [message #63195 is a reply to message #62565 ] Mon, 04 March 2013 16:41 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar stop4stuff  is currently offline stop4stuff
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And today's rejection is...

Twin Rail Mobius Pendant - small in Silver
Reason: Can not be cleaned
Additional information: has to be more connected

Same model different reason... Additional information: has to be more connected ... The model is a single shell, it cannot be more connected!!!

Paul
Re: Preventing Rejections [message #63216 is a reply to message #63195 ] Mon, 04 March 2013 21:59 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar CactusBones  is currently offline CactusBones
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I unfortunately have also had this same issue with customers having prints rejected after I successfully printed and took pictures. It is a bit embarrassing and hope that there is at least a message being sent to the customer relieving designers of responsibility if the print had been successfully completed before and suddenly becomes unprintable. I even went as far as to re-upload files....but now that seems like that was completely unnecessary and that this issue happens to many people and is unpredictable.

[Updated on: Mon, 04 March 2013 22:14 UTC]

Re: Preventing Rejections [message #63250 is a reply to message #63186 ] Tue, 05 March 2013 04:27 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar Roy_Stevens  is currently offline Roy_Stevens
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OK, I'm going to have to call BS on the idea that a broken wire can cause an entire tray of prints to fail. Gravity, at least where I live, only works in the down direction. The problem that I have found is not a failure of the wire, but a failure of the support material. I have one model where I had a number of wires, which were designed to be printed in the X-Y axis, but the operator in his infinite wisdom oriented the model vertically, causing some wires attempting to be supported at the top of 6 cm of 0.6mm thick wax walls. I added 'plates' near the wires to cause the support material to be solid throughout the print and the next print came out perfect. But this wouldn't be an issue if orientation could be specified.


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Re: Preventing Rejections [message #63251 is a reply to message #63250 ] Tue, 05 March 2013 05:08 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar stannum is currently online stannum
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The mobius pendant should try to connect with its inner self.

The tray reference is probably to the box used in SLS, full of nylon dust. The box is filled a bit each time, with a blade moving over it, so if a block of material becomes lose, it could disturb the smoothness of the dust. Imagine a small rock falls while flattening a pile of very fine sand.

In any case, the recurrent issue is that problems are reported with new orders, and rarely along the fullfilment of current order, and with cryptic descriptions, no photos (that's different than renders), or just contradicting past prints experience. Last one was a 0.02mm difference, and after fixing that, claims that final customers would prefer it even thicker (final customers depend on the flexibility and "invisibility") for a part that has printed hundreds of times (it repeats many times per item, just in case anybody wants to guess which one it is).

To make it worse, as you have no way to contact customers of failed prints, you & SW lose face and sales, specially with impulse buys.
Re: Preventing Rejections [message #63263 is a reply to message #63251 ] Tue, 05 March 2013 11:05 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar Innovo  is currently offline Innovo
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stannum wrote on Tue, 05 March 2013 05:08


To make it worse, as you have no way to contact customers of failed prints, you & SW lose face and sales, specially with impulse buys.


I agree. At least 90% of my clients with a failed print never re-order it.



Innovation & Design

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Re: Preventing Rejections [message #63268 is a reply to message #63250 ] Tue, 05 March 2013 14:10 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar Youknowwho4eva  is currently offline Youknowwho4eva
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Roy_Stevens wrote on Tue, 05 March 2013 04:27

OK, I'm going to have to call BS on the idea that a broken wire can cause an entire tray of prints to fail.


I take your call of BS and tell you that for WSF, the pieces are built by putting a layer of powder that is synthered with a laser. If the powder sinks or shifts, it can alter the entire layer, and once the powder isn't level, it won't be level the rest of the print. And I think if FUD sinks, and the printer tries to add another layer, that material has to go somewhere, and it's not going where it's supposed to. I don't know if FUD can be as catastrophic as WSF.


I learned a long time ago the wisest thing I can do is be on my own side, be an advocate for myself and others like me. -Maya Angelou
michael@shapeways.com Community Advocate
Re: Preventing Rejections [message #63271 is a reply to message #63268 ] Tue, 05 March 2013 14:44 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar stonysmith is currently online stonysmith
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It took me a long time to understand the "destroying a batch" comment.

I finally came to understand: A small piece of material has significantly less mass than the printhead (or the wiper) does. As the printhead passes over it, it is possible that some friction is generated between the small peice and the printhead. That small piece of material could then be shifted laterally by the print head (or wiper).. causing that peice to "surf" for some distance, possibly even landing on somebody else's model. Then, as small as it is, that sliver can cause the print head to "bump" upwards, causing a gap or irregularity on other people's models... "destroying the batch"


Patience, Persistance, Politeness - the 3Ps will help us get us to Perfect Printed Products
Re: Preventing Rejections [message #63319 is a reply to message #63271 ] Wed, 06 March 2013 00:49 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar stannum is currently online stannum
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If the mass of the wiper is big enough to push things, why would it bump next time instead of pushing them again? And the laser is above the box, plastic melts "itself" with nothing moving near it (invisible laser beam).

Based in one print with a defect (broken and bent tube, like if slices had been pushed) the issue seems to be that it makes a mess of dust instead of perfectly flat surface, layers don't match with ones above and below, and soft parts deform. Given enough deformations, the items are useless.
Re: Preventing Rejections [message #63400 is a reply to message #63271 ] Thu, 07 March 2013 01:47 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar Roy_Stevens  is currently offline Roy_Stevens
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If a wiper or printhead could really move small items, whenever an overhang on a model starts it would ruin the batch. For a time that portion of the model isn't connected to anything except itself.


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Re: Preventing Rejections [message #63460 is a reply to message #63400 ] Thu, 07 March 2013 18:26 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar FabMeJewelry  is currently offline FabMeJewelry
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When a model is rejected after a customer has bought it from my shop i would really like to get one day for fixing the problem and to upload the fixed file, it would save me a really nasty feeling Crying or Very Sad and the customer wouldn't have to pay for the shipping cost again
if they ever are considering to reorder Surprised .

At least give the customer the choice to 1 : wait one more day for the designer to fix the problem or 2 : Accept a refund.

I think most problems can be resolved within a few minutes/hours, my problem did in 10min.

Even if there are al lot of models that can't be fixed within that day for any reason a bunch of them would.
Let's say we win 30% of the lost sales/customers back, i say give us the chance please.

Everybody including shapeways is fairly new at this and except for a few guidelines i still can't find a course :
designing X for 3Dprinting in X Material @ X company.
(X = could be anything)

[Updated on: Fri, 03 May 2013 15:42 UTC]


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Re: Preventing Rejections [message #63471 is a reply to message #62565 ] Thu, 07 March 2013 19:47 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar stop4stuff  is currently offline stop4stuff
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I agree, in the majority of cases a fix is easy enough.

But I'm maybe not so unique in that the Twin Rail pendant I mentioned earlier was printed many times before without any reported issues, but (to me) suddenly the model is not printable any more. The reasons vary, and it took 2 months for the real reason (poor silver flow) to be conveyed - I just designed the thing, it passed the checks and was printed many times, I don't have a clue about silver flow.

So, yeah, some stuff is simple to fix, but other stuff is a tad more complicated, and its the complicated stuff that really needs to be looked into and how a successfully printed model can be made printable again.

Paul


Re: Preventing Rejections [message #63533 is a reply to message #63460 ] Fri, 08 March 2013 07:34 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar stonysmith is currently online stonysmith
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FabMeJewelry wrote on Thu, 07 March 2013 18:26

When a model is rejected after a customer has bought it from my shop i would really like to get one day for fixing the problem and to upload the fixed file


There is one huge problem with this request. If the repaired model is larger than the original, who pays the difference? There is nothing stopping you during your "fix" to doubling, tripling , the size of the model, thereby creating significant extra cost that the consumer didn't agree to in the first place, and may not be willing to pay. Shapeways can't afford to take on that risk themselves, the difference needs to be paid for. Shapeways can't "pull" extra money from the buyer's Paypal - it will require the customers specific interaction. That's why (currently) the orders are just outright cancelled - because a change in price requires interaction from the buyer.

Yes, I know.. there could be some allowance made for "negligible" changes, but this is one of the reasons why this is more complicated than just simply "placing the order on hold". Note: I'm with you.. I have often goofed on a model, had a buyer's order rejected, and wanted to tell Customer Service.. "I'll pay the difference.. just let this new copy go thru".

But putting that set of processes in place will take time and careful thought.


Patience, Persistance, Politeness - the 3Ps will help us get us to Perfect Printed Products
Re: Preventing Rejections [message #63549 is a reply to message #62565 ] Fri, 08 March 2013 10:29 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar stop4stuff  is currently offline stop4stuff
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So I've been conversing with a customer about the pendant, he asked if he could give the premium silver a shot, expecting rejection.
It was. And again, a slightly different reason than before (no mention of silver flow)

Twin Rail Mobius Pendant - small in Premium Silver
Reason: Other (do not use)
Additional information: due to such design type high glossy finish is not possible. it will not give a same finished look in all over the design. it will vary. also wire will get deformed.

So now comes another question, if the finish is not possible, why is there no mention of the model not being printable/castable?

Time to try another service with this model, 2 1/2 months of faffing about trying to get an understanding of how to make the model printable without altering the design (i.e. adding bars to somehwere that aids silver flow that I haven't got a clue about) has done my head in.

Paul
Re: Preventing Rejections [message #63590 is a reply to message #62565 ] Fri, 08 March 2013 19:10 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar stop4stuff  is currently offline stop4stuff
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Two meaningless emails about the same model.




Hi Paul,

I have asked my colleague from production if he has a different approach to get this model printed in silver glossy

I will get back to you as soon as possible.

Regards,
Kind Regards,

Joost Denissen
Customer Service Agent
www.Shapeways.com




Hi Paul,

I see that somehow the rejection reason is not ended up in your rejection mail. I will report this to our development team.
This is the reason that your model can not be produced in Premium Silver:
"due to such design type high glossy finish is not possible. it will not give a same finished look in all over the design. it will vary. also the wire will get deformed".
See also the attachment: file.jpg

Hope this was helpful.
Kindly,
Maartje

Kind regards,

Mrs. Maartje Vijn
Customer Service Agent
www.Shapeways.com





ffs,.,,, does anybody read anything????

Just print the thing in ordinary Silver like what was done last year before your producton partners flaked!!!!!!


nuff sed
Re: Preventing Rejections [message #63617 is a reply to message #63533 ] Fri, 08 March 2013 23:20 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar FabMeJewelry  is currently offline FabMeJewelry
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I see your point stonysmith, most of the time a fix will definetly increse the pricing (fill up holes , add wall thickness, increse strength, add sprues etc..) maybe it's not so bad being only a designer and not having to solve this complicated matter Rolling Eyes

Maybe some 3D print* simulation software can be developed or already exist somewhere for checking if a model can be printed?

*including every part of the process (somehow that seems impossible)


Wesley Günter - FabMeJewelry.com - Set a course, for the future !
Re: Preventing Rejections [message #63647 is a reply to message #63549 ] Sat, 09 March 2013 06:24 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar stevecim  is currently offline stevecim
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If your looking to only get parts made in silver, then you might get better results with a casting company that service the jewellery industry .
Shapeways provide a great service , but because of the volume and many different materials they use, they can't experts at every type of material .

I've had pendants rejected from shapeways for having to fine text engraved, or extruded , I.e has fine has 0.18 mm.
I then sent the exact same file to a local caster, no problems, looks great and only 3 days for delivery .

It's not shapeways fault , it just that , when it comes to casting silver, a caster that's been doing it for 20+ years is just going to have a better idea on what will and will not work ( they know where to place sprues to get he best silver flow )and they know how to get the best out of their equipment .




Re: Preventing Rejections [message #63650 is a reply to message #62565 ] Sat, 09 March 2013 07:53 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar stop4stuff  is currently offline stop4stuff
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Shapeways don't do the silver themselves, they use a production partner.

The pendant was produced many times, then suddenly the production partner decided they couldn't produce it.

Yes, I could go the route of having the pendant produced undependantly, but the big point is with Shapeways, items are made on demand, I carry no stock and I don't need to get anything hallmarked.

Paul
Re: Preventing Rejections [message #63698 is a reply to message #63186 ] Sat, 09 March 2013 22:52 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar Mark W  is currently offline Mark W
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Youknowwho4eva wrote on Mon, 04 March 2013 14:37

Problem 2, which is part of our thinking on the solution to some issues, is what you might find acceptable, another customer may not. So if you have a piece with thin rails that ships to you ok, we also have to be able to ship it across the world to arrive ok. And you may accept a broken rail, but a customer may want a reprint.


So if a model is ordered, successfully printed, and survives shipping dozens of times previously, the fear of one customer wanting a re-print because of a fluke breakage in shipping is enough reason to start rejecting models left and right?

I apologize that my frustration is beginning to leak into anger, but that is ridiculous!

Here is my shop: http://www.shapeways.com/shops/cgnscale

Notice how every major model has multiple photographs of the successful print?
As someone who works here, please look at the record of how many times these prints have been ordered, successfully printed, and shipped. Based on the mark-up payments I've received, I think you'll see indisputable evidence that these designs are successful.

So why are we moving backwards and rejecting these??? Nearly EVERY SINGLE ORDER I receive in recent months is rejected. A year ago, a rejection was a rare occurrence and meant there really was a design flaw. Now, I can only believe a rejection means you have a disgruntled employee who's trying to sabotage your, and my, profits.

Again, I apologize for venting my frustration, but THIS HAS BECOME RIDICULOUS!
Re: Preventing Rejections [message #63819 is a reply to message #62565 ] Mon, 11 March 2013 17:53 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar pezhetairoi  is currently offline pezhetairoi
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Thanks, to the MOD who redirected me.
I've had this problem too. I didn't realize there were others.
It certainly looks pretty stupid when you've sold five copies but the sixth is rejected as unprintable.

One case I had was "multiple shells". In CAD, the solids were actually separate shells (my mistake), but by less than 0.001" away from each other. So when they were printed it didn't matter -- the distance was so small that the machine bound them together anyway.

Second problem was wall thickness on a very tiny gun barrel. Technically the "wall thickness" if that's what you can call it was too thin at 0.020", but the depth of the gun barrel hole was only 0.031". Does this still count as a "wall"? On a tiny little barrel? It supports nothing. More like just an indentation or depression, really. Would this same logic apply to a reversed panel line that sticks out from a surface?

It seems like like the operators are using a set of rules instead of experience to make decisions on what to print. Companies like to set hard and fast rules to train new people easily, but silly things like this happen as a side-effect when people stop using their own judgement.

To check my designs I print them out on my own 3D printer here in my own workshop ... so I know they work. The small Shapeways shop I have has photos of everything printed-out and painted as proof.
I realize every machine is different and has it's own quirks, but with the examples above we are literally splitting human hairs.

Other than this, my Shapeways experience has been quite good. However a consistent problem like this would definitely make me rethink these services. It's just not practical to have designs rejected so randomly.
Re: Preventing Rejections [message #63880 is a reply to message #62565 ] Tue, 12 March 2013 13:05 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar MichaelMueller  is currently offline MichaelMueller
Messages: 217
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Hi,
I got the same problem with one of my designs. I've posted this today on another thread... sorry for the double post.

----------------------------

I was very pleased when a custumer ordered one of my designs in Silver Glossy. It was the "Amour Fou Pendant" which was printed in stainless steel a couple of times before. The next day I've got a message from shapeways service that the design is "not printable" ...

Amour Fou Pendant in Silver Glossy
Reason: Thin walls
Additional information: too fragile too handle


It is always frustrating if a model gets rejected but in this case I find no violation against the design rules. The wall thickness is above 0.8 mm and the depth is even 3 mm. It looks fragile but it is in fact pretty stable.
I wrote to the always friendly service and got the answer that "the walls indeed are thicker than 0.8mm but it seems that this model is too fragile like this" and that this issue will be forwarded to the production facility. This was on thurstday and I got no further infos about that.

I'm really upset especially cause this was a customer order.
As far as I know 3d printing is not an automated process. Instead every design will be proved by the people in the production facility during the preparation of the printing process. OK, everyone makes mistakes sometimes. I think this means to admit that this can happen the guys in the production facility, too. Maybe I've missed something in the design rules. I'm looking forward to get some useful feeback from the service.
If it was in fact a mistake by the production facility, I like to see a prompt and customer-friendly solution here.

Does anyone else got an issue like that?

Cheers!
Michael

http://images1.sw-cdn.net/model/picture/674x501_567332_467377_1340222162.jpg

[Updated on: Tue, 12 March 2013 13:05 UTC]


Michael Mueller
www.pookas.de
Re: Preventing Rejections [message #63881 is a reply to message #63819 ] Tue, 12 March 2013 13:06 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar Calistotash  is currently offline Calistotash
Messages: 29
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I don't know if this will help anyone else,but I may as well post it anyway, considering I'm the one who started a rejections thread before Christmas I believe.

I'd spent the last few months working on a model that I definitely wanted to put up for sale, and that I definitely knew would sell a few of. I ordered a prototype before Christmas, and to my surprise, it actually printed. I emailed support to ask if any part of it was a problem during printing, and found out that they had to reprint it once; and I still can't believe they printed it after discovering some parts under the minimum specifications. (Very much appreciated though.)

I made up my second prototype, and test customer of mine and myself both ordered one, so I'd have two prints to ensure it could be printed again. After checking with support after receiving the model, both models were perfectly fine, and I was told it was be ok to have it for sale for multiple prints.

I think in this case, I was incredibly lucky, and I am kind of waiting for the day where it all backfires. The support team has been absolutely amazing in the time I've been printing here, and I'm sure if that day comes again, they'll be helpful then.

In the thread I made about this topic, we were told that a printing tag was being implemented; which may explain why more previously alright prints are now being rejected, especially those with thin rails. However, if those files have never caused a problem before, it shouldn't now, unless the shipping constantly breaks the model (which I know was the cause of one of my models refusal reasons). The printer may be fully capable, but transporting it halfway across the world can take it's toll. Maybe you could email support and ask how many customers complained of broken items they bought from your store? I know that without talking to support, my models would probably never have sold.
Re: Preventing Rejections [message #63884 is a reply to message #63880 ] Tue, 12 March 2013 13:11 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar MichaelMueller  is currently offline MichaelMueller
Messages: 217
Registered: July 2011
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Hi,

this is the feedback I got from the service a hour ago:
---------------
I have received a feedback about your model from my colleague from the Production Facility.
This model should be okay with a thickness of 1.5mm in those letters. The problem we are facing is that the wax material is so brittle after printing that a structure likes this needs to be more thick.

Could you maybe make your model around 2.5mm thick so we can print the wax model and have
this casted in Silver?

Thanks!
Kind Regards,
---------------

Needless to say, I'm not happy with this.
The design already has a wall thickness (depth) of 3 mm but the line strengh of the calligraphy is approximately 1.2 mm. This can't be increased to 2.5 mm without killing the design.
I don't understand why this shouldn't be printable though it is conform to the design rules. Let's face it, it was even printed in Stainless Steel which has much stricter design rules about wall thickness.
I would suppose someone at the production facility classified it as not printable without really checking the wall thickness. Instead of an apology there are suggestions way beyond the existing design rules. Maybe I'm wrong.
What if I order it in silver and it gets printed this time... just to make my point?

Cheers!
Michael


Michael Mueller
www.pookas.de
Re: Preventing Rejections [message #63895 is a reply to message #63884 ] Tue, 12 March 2013 16:22 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar numarul7  is currently offline numarul7
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Registered: January 2013
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Michael

They use different "wax material" for the other metal.

Still I don`t understand why they use a different wax instead of one harder ? Even hard wax melts at the temperature needed to do the cast.

To fix the pendant form the Designer perspective it is like making the pendant be "from 7cm" to "8-9 cm" that makes is look so big that I wonder who will wear it ? A second fix will be to put the letters on a plate of 1.5 mm cut around the letters but still this ruins a bit the Design.

So why not use different wax dear Shapeways ?

Or better make that the automation process when you upload the design to have it checked for this problems and instruct de designer that "material X" is not available for printing the design.

Or buy a better wax!


numarul7 jewelry and design
Re: Preventing Rejections [message #63899 is a reply to message #62565 ] Tue, 12 March 2013 17:04 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar Youknowwho4eva  is currently offline Youknowwho4eva
Messages: 5482
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Regarding the wax and design rules, Michaels issue has brought this to light. So we are examining how to prevent these rejections in the future.


I learned a long time ago the wisest thing I can do is be on my own side, be an advocate for myself and others like me. -Maya Angelou
michael@shapeways.com Community Advocate
Re: Preventing Rejections [message #63912 is a reply to message #63899 ] Tue, 12 March 2013 18:16 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar Roy_Stevens  is currently offline Roy_Stevens
Messages: 143
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index.php?t=getfile&id=28900&private=0
So here's a prime example of a rejection for a phantom issue. Someone took a screen shot of my model and pasted 0.25 mm onto it in several places with no indication of what or where it is being measured at. I shelled this model at 0.32 mm, I also have a print of this model done previously.


Earl Grey, hot.
Re: Preventing Rejections [message #63918 is a reply to message #62565 ] Tue, 12 March 2013 19:19 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar Youknowwho4eva  is currently offline Youknowwho4eva
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I work here
Can you share the file with us, or email it to me?


I learned a long time ago the wisest thing I can do is be on my own side, be an advocate for myself and others like me. -Maya Angelou
michael@shapeways.com Community Advocate
Re: Preventing Rejections [message #63919 is a reply to message #63912 ] Tue, 12 March 2013 19:21 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar NickHawkins  is currently offline NickHawkins
Messages: 32
Registered: April 2010
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Although I'm a fairly new designer of 1/200 scale aircraft models on Shapeways I thought I was getting the hand of checking my models for minimum wall thickness and avoiding over-thin aerofoil sections.

Now I've facing a new reason for rejection, my WSF models can't be cleaned because the holes aren't big enough.
Yes, I've watched the video of WSF models being fine cleaned with an air hose in a dust-proof booth but I can't believe that it's intended to recover every last grain of unfused material.

4mm is larger than the fuselage diameter of several of my models and 2mm is larger than the internal diameter of the hollow in most of them, trying to place the required holes so that they are relatively unobtrusive on a model that may be viewed from any angle is not always possible (designers of land and sea models have an advantage here!).

Are the cleaning holes for WSF required for a practical (not theoretical) production benefit or is this simply a case of over-literal interpretation of the rules please?
Re: Preventing Rejections [message #63945 is a reply to message #63919 ] Wed, 13 March 2013 00:48 UTC Go to previous messageGo to previous message
avatar Roy_Stevens  is currently offline Roy_Stevens
Messages: 143
Registered: November 2009
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While I rarely repeat Shapeways official rules, they will charge you full price for any captive material, ie material that can't be removed. I can't see why such a rule is necessary, but you have to figure out price somehow and volume is as good as any to keep everything simple. In your case I might recommend making your airplanes solid, based on the size the price won't change much and it would solve such issues.


Earl Grey, hot.

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