| Building a full size Trumpet: multi-part modeling question [message #59943] Wed, 09 January 2013 22:25 UTC |
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I have repaired and played brass musical instruments and am considering building a prototype for a trumpet using Shapeways metals materials. I have a couple questions on best practices and process.
1) Is it best to not have nested parts, such as the valve pistons, which could be part of the model or could be separated out as 3 individual parts?
(Value Springs, too)
2) How best to handle threaded items, such as screw caps or items that thread onto a second part? Can they be done as part of the same model or should these threaded parts be unique pieces?
3) With my model, at least one tube part needs to be inserted and slide freely inside of a second tube for the tuning mechanism. This is how tuning is done on a trumpet or trombone. Are there any tricks with the process to make this happen best? Should the tuning slide tube part be a separate piece from the body of the horn?
I have always thought casting would be an interesting way to make a horn, but the weight was the killer. The DMLS process is very promising for new trumpet models. New options for shaping the horn seem very possible.
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| Re: Building a full size Trumpet: multi-part modeling question [message #60029 is a reply to message #59943 ] Fri, 11 January 2013 13:58 UTC |
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I'm guessing the goal is to print in stainless?
1. In stainless you can't nest parts, or have multiple parts in a file.
2. Because of stainless prints resolution and potential for warping, it's best to thread yourself.
3. Any moving parts, you'd have to have in separate files, and if you want them to slide like a tuning slide, you're going to have a lot of polishing to do.
A couple additional notes:
1. The max bounding box for stainless is 1000x450x250mm (not a very big trumpet) so you'd probably have to do separate pieces, and weld them together
2. Cleanablity. You have to make sure the operator can clean out unused steel so it doesn't fuse closed any pipes
3. Price, Stainless is $8 per cubic cm plus $6 handling fee and shipping. Your trumpet would not be cheap.
The Mad Moder
michael@shapeways.com
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| Re: Building a full size Trumpet: multi-part modeling question [message #60033 is a reply to message #60029 ] Fri, 11 January 2013 15:53 UTC |
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Thanks for the info. One follow-up questions then...
With regard to the tuning slide — is the need for polishing because the stainless steel material is a rough or pitted finish?
As a working process the tuning slide(s) will be separate parts. The exposed end that is inserted into the other piping could easily be buffed on a grinding wheel to get it polished up.
Just a side note, on cost: not that we will make a Monette horn, but the Dave Monette products run from about $9500 upwards to $16K! More than a decade ago I played a $4500 horn while on tour. Maybe we can make something close and make some money or monette. 
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| Re: Building a full size Trumpet: multi-part modeling question [message #60034 is a reply to message #59943 ] Fri, 11 January 2013 16:06 UTC |
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You are correct about the finish of the stainless. It will certainly be harder to polish the inside of the tuner.
The Mad Moder
michael@shapeways.com
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| Re: Building a full size Trumpet: multi-part modeling question [message #60036 is a reply to message #60034 ] Fri, 11 January 2013 16:59 UTC |
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The other problem is that since Stainless requiring a 3mm wall thickness, the item is going to be fairly "dead" to vibrations. I am not a musician, but I would think that it would not make a good musical instrument. A portion of the quality of a horn is its response to vibrations, a wooden alpenhorn has an entirely different sound than the classical brass trumpet.
Also.. the Shapeways process is not DMLS. They use an 'organic binder' to adhere the steel particles, and then the particles are fused together in a kiln. DMLS uses a laser or electron beam to fuse the particles.
Patience, Persistance, Politeness - the 3Ps will help us get us to Perfect Printed Products
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| Re: Building a full size Trumpet: multi-part modeling question [message #60052 is a reply to message #60036 ] Fri, 11 January 2013 21:16 UTC |
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Hey thanks, Stonysmith.
You are dead on. Wall thickness in the bell section should be 1.2mm max. Traditionally a bead roll on the outer bell rim has been for integrity, adding some thickness. There are sections where walls are thicker, and maintaining a specific tube bore is critical to functional tuning once it's built.
Maybe exploring the DMLS process a bit further is the thing to do, as that process can go thinner with metals.
This is a cool area that is exploding. The potential to design differently – because we can – will make things very exciting!
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| Re: Building a full size Trumpet: multi-part modeling question [message #60062 is a reply to message #60052 ] Sat, 12 January 2013 00:34 UTC |
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And it has lots of bronze (30-40%), not pure SS. That's what is fused and holds the steel particles.
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| Re: Building a full size Trumpet: multi-part modeling question [message #60089 is a reply to message #60062 ] Sat, 12 January 2013 17:35 UTC |
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You know – bronze would be fine, but I need the thinner wall - 1- 1.5mm.
Does it really need 3mm? that seems really thick for things like jewelry.
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| Re: Building a full size Trumpet: multi-part modeling question [message #60090 is a reply to message #60089 ] Sat, 12 January 2013 17:43 UTC |
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That's just it.. for small stuff, you're allowed thinner walls, but for something as large as a functional trumpet, it's 3mm, and possibly even thicker depending upon how well the structure can support itself.
Patience, Persistance, Politeness - the 3Ps will help us get us to Perfect Printed Products
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| Re: Building a full size Trumpet: multi-part modeling question [message #60106 is a reply to message #60089 ] Sun, 13 January 2013 00:53 UTC |
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People have reported skin problems with rings and pendants, related to the bronze. This steel-bronze composite, when left outside, generates a nice orange skin. Instrument parts could have less contact with sweat, skin oils, spit or just air humidity than those other uses, but never be trully free of them.
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| Re: Building a full size Trumpet: multi-part modeling question [message #60224 is a reply to message #60106 ] Mon, 14 January 2013 22:01 UTC |
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Hey, so one more final question (ok so there are always more questions, but hey...)
Does anyone know enough about investment casting to know if tubing, such as found in a trumpet, can be handled with this method?
Seems like hollow and deep would be a problem, but I don't know enough to know what I don't know. ;>)
But, I could make my model and sub-parts from some of the plastics on Shapeways, and use it (them) for an investment casting, provided this process would work.
Any thoughts to viability given the shape of my model?
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| Re: Building a full size Trumpet: multi-part modeling question [message #60251 is a reply to message #60224 ] Tue, 15 January 2013 11:10 UTC |
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Hi,
a thought from left-field perhaps, but how about using silver for some or all of the parts? If you are willing to spend 16,000 USD ... lol
I don't know about the tonality etc but it would certainly be a talking point!
Good luck, sounds like a very interesting project
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