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Re: Already printed model being rejected [message #58390 is a reply to message #58388 ] Tue, 11 December 2012 11:38 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar mkroeker  is currently offline mkroeker
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Did you get confirmation from service on that rejection ? Just in case it was some new shapie who
rejected a bunch of orders because s/he lacks the experience. (Seems odd to tighten the rules
for jewelry in the midst of the holiday shopping without advance warning to affected designers)
Re: Already printed model being rejected [message #58392 is a reply to message #58390 ] Tue, 11 December 2012 12:00 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar stop4stuff  is currently offline stop4stuff
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The rejections, three so far in the space of 5 days, came from Shapeways Production Partner via Shapeways Customer Service team. Apparently the model has been causing some hassle for some time, but it was only last Friday (7th) that I was first notified. Rolling Eyes

A snippet from the emails that have being going back & forth.

Quote:

I understand Paul's frustration on this one. I spoke to production prior to
the rejections and they have been having serious issues with this model for
quite some time now, this model always needs a lot of hand made support
stems to make sure it doesn't fail in printing or casting, and even then it
can still fail. The reason for this is that very long round wire that is
totally unsupported appart from both ends. The wax that we use to print our
models is very very fragile and it is very difficult to not break this
model. That's is why production rejected this model and they rejected it
after trying it first, that is why you see other versions still in
production. I'll see if we need to reject these models as well.


I've also asked what the recommended wire thickness should be to get the model printed first time every time, but alas, no response as yet and even if a response is forthcoming it will still be too late for those Christmas orders Sad

Paul


Re: Already printed model being rejected [message #58398 is a reply to message #58392 ] Tue, 11 December 2012 14:30 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar 7777773  is currently offline 7777773
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Silver definitely needs to have its rules revised. I've had silver prints rejected lately that print OK in stainless steel - and steel requires *much* thicker walls. Maybe a 4+mm minimum wall thickness for silver would help?
Re: Already printed model being rejected [message #58403 is a reply to message #58398 ] Tue, 11 December 2012 14:58 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar BillBedford  is currently offline BillBedford
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My take on this is that I need to see failed pieces so that I can design around any problems. Having the machine operators repeatedly rebuilding failed pieces seem a waste of time and effort when the solution is likely to take a few minutes work on the original drawing.

Being able to see your mistakes is the best way of learning how not to design.


Bill Bedford
Re: Already printed model being rejected [message #58406 is a reply to message #58403 ] Tue, 11 December 2012 15:21 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar mkroeker  is currently offline mkroeker
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I fear that production partners may be even more inclined than in-house workers
to try doing the impossible, and less willing to disclose their misprint ratio.
Re: Already printed model being rejected [message #58413 is a reply to message #58403 ] Tue, 11 December 2012 18:15 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar 7777773  is currently offline 7777773
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Bill is absolutely correct - seeing a failure is extraordinarily helpful to help avoid future failures. I recently had several copies of http://shpws.me/lnj8 delivered to a customer broken. The point of failure got past me, the reviewer, and the print cleaner... but the reason for the failure was obvious to me the moment I saw pics sent to me from the customer.

Purely by the numbers the model was OK.... however, the customer had ordered the model is WSF-Polished, and the engine pods broke off during polishing. I had designed the supports for the engines with well over the amount needed to print OK, and even to withstand the polishing process... but what I didn't take into account was the twisting forces experienced by polishing media was enough to torque the engines right off. This wasn't a case of having sufficient wall thickness - it was a case of the design in 3D looking perfectly OK on screen, but real-world forces proving otherwise.

I was (hopefully) able to correct the problem by adding 2 more supports farther off the center axis. This should stop that part from rotating and thus from being twisted off.


I bring this case up specifically because, if the failure had been reported to me in the standard Shapeways blue-model-red-circle "might break" minimal communications failure email, I'd never have figured out what the issue was.
I still have not been notified by shapeways of that failure, however. I did update the model a few minutes after the customer contacted me and he sent me a follow-up message later telling me it was being re-printed for him, so we'll see soon if the revised model is the one they are printing, or if they are reprinting the older version.

[Updated on: Tue, 11 December 2012 18:16 UTC]

Re: Already printed model being rejected [message #58434 is a reply to message #58388 ] Tue, 11 December 2012 23:18 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar Bathsheba  is currently offline Bathsheba
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stop4stuff wrote on Tue, 11 December 2012 11:25

I think you've hit the nail on the head Bathsheba.
After many successful prints of my Small Twin Rail Mobius in Silver without any reported problems, it has now been decided that the model is too fragile. Whilst I must accept this, the timing sucks for those who've ordered the model as a Christmas present as it is now too late to adjust the model for it to be re-ordered.


Yes, that's the phenomenon I have in mind. It bites you exactly at the moment when the model starts to get popular and you have a bunch of orders on deadline, because before that moment there wasn't a problem.

What's needed is to handle this in a way that doesn't blame or shame the people doing the printing. They're on our side...when they push the envelope and succeed with an iffy design, do we write back and say "Hey, awesome print!!"? We do not.

If we get angry when they try and it doesn't work out, they'll get defensive and start pushing back with more restrictive rules, rejecting models preemptively rather than taking risks near the edge of what the machines can do. I feel like that's not the outcome we're looking for.


-Bathsheba
http://bathsheba.com
Re: Already printed model being rejected [message #58456 is a reply to message #58434 ] Wed, 12 December 2012 10:40 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar stop4stuff  is currently offline stop4stuff
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And therein lays the crux of the problem.

If a design is decided as being iffy but falls within the scope of the material design guidelines and gives the production guys grief then surely (as Bill said before) the simplest solution is for the production guys to share their findings at the earliest opportunity so that everyone can move forward and be happy. With the small mobius pendant, it would take me mere minutes to adjust and upload if I was informed of a suitable wire thickness that would guarantee a successful print first time every time. As it stands the wire for that pendant is 1.30mm (+/- 0.02mm) thick and the Silver guidelines ask for 1mm as a 'free wire', so as anyone would, I thought I had covered the bases by making the wire 30% over the minimum. Crying or Very Sad

Paul


more rejections of successfully printed pieces [message #58489 is a reply to message #53999 ] Wed, 12 December 2012 18:34 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar vertigopolka  is currently offline vertigopolka
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Well, it has happened again!

Silver models that were successfully printed in the past have been rejected. It is embarrassing to have models that I have for sale be rejected, especially after I have test printed the models so they wouldn't be rejected. It reflects badly on my shop as well as on Shapeways.

I have responded (rather emphatically) to customer service. My hope is that they quickly rectify the situation and fulfill the order(s) without having the customer go through hoops to get their prints.

I know that this is an old story, but every time it happens, it gets me kind of fired up, and I apologize for the rant, and I apologize to the customers who placed orders. If there were problems with printing the initial prints, I was not made aware of them.


@vertigopolka
http://www.vertigopolka.com
Re: more rejections of successfully printed pieces [message #58524 is a reply to message #58489 ] Thu, 13 December 2012 01:52 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar Bathsheba  is currently offline Bathsheba
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Exactly Paul, what we need from Shapeways is an open feedback channel that is available to the printers whether or not the model is printed.

Meanwhile I'll say it again: as users we've got to keep our good faith that the printers are doing their best even when things turn out inconvenient. 3D printing, like every other way of making things ever discovered, is a black art. There's no simple set of guidelines that will always predict exactly whether a model is printable. We make mistakes about what the machines can do, and so do the machine operators, and that's life on the cutting edge: we're doing science together.

If we start blaming them for trying and failing at the edge cases, they'll stop trying, and that would be sad.


-Bathsheba
http://bathsheba.com
Re: more rejections of successfully printed pieces [message #58527 is a reply to message #58524 ] Thu, 13 December 2012 02:35 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar Zoe Brain  is currently offline Zoe Brain
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Concur, with emphasis. You covered the issue exactly.
Re: more rejections of successfully printed pieces [message #58538 is a reply to message #58527 ] Thu, 13 December 2012 07:58 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar mkroeker  is currently offline mkroeker
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That silver casting company is probably going through pre-christmas hell, with every tricky part
they were proud to have mastered over the year now returning in quantity all at the same time.
icon8.gif  Re: more rejections of successfully printed pieces [message #58557 is a reply to message #58538 ] Thu, 13 December 2012 14:52 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar decapod  is currently offline decapod
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YET ANOTHER EXAMPLE!

This has printed before, I have the model.

The FUD guidelines state:
How to design thin, unsupported walls
This pictures shows models made 0.6mm thick sheets (top), and 0.3mm thick sheets (bottom). You can see both models started to warp once the walls get big enough. Based on these tests, we conclude that for models in the 0.3-0.6mm wall thickness range, to keep free standing walls under 30x30mm. For walls of 0.6mm thickness, try to keep your free standing walls under 50x50mm.

Now the rejection image shows the walls are 0.4 to 0.5mm thick and only 1 or 2mm high!! well within the 30mmx30mm range.

index.php?t=getfile&id=24306&private=0

Why the rejection?

  • Attachment: 466777.JPG
    (Size: 66.79KB, Downloaded 216 time(s))

Re: more rejections of successfully printed pieces [message #58558 is a reply to message #58557 ] Thu, 13 December 2012 15:29 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar 7777773  is currently offline 7777773
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Quote:

Why the rejection?

This is the key question. Rejection emails are too often extremely difficult to understand. While a picture is said to be worth a thousand words, a few actual words along with it would be a lot more helpful.
Re: more rejections of successfully printed pieces [message #58559 is a reply to message #58557 ] Thu, 13 December 2012 15:30 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar mkroeker  is currently offline mkroeker
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This thread mentioned (or introduced ??)
another rule - "for stability, details have to be as wide as they are tall". (Also in the context of unexpected rejection of a proven
model). Maybe you got bitten by the same head of that multi-headed monster that dwells in the caverns underneath the printer floor
at shapeways ?
Re: more rejections of successfully printed pieces [message #58560 is a reply to message #58557 ] Thu, 13 December 2012 15:35 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar stop4stuff  is currently offline stop4stuff
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Judging by the 0.97 and 2.30 measurements, I'd say the model has been erroneously rejected.
IMO, the areas indicated are unsuported walls and fall well within the guidelines.

If you've not already, reply to the rejection email and ask Customer Services.

Paul




Re: more rejections of successfully printed pieces [message #58610 is a reply to message #58560 ] Fri, 14 December 2012 11:29 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar decapod  is currently offline decapod
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Here's the reply from Christel:

==================================
Hi Paul,
Thank you for writing in.
Unfortunately we can't see that this model has been printed before, but
this rejected model also really has got too thin walls and needs to be
made thicker as well.
http://www.shapeways.com/materials/frosted-detail-design-gui delines

Unfortunately I can't promise you that the model in order 179276 is going
to be printed.
This is something which is being checked by our Production Facility and
they will make the call if the model can be printed or not.
Sorry that I can't help you further with this.
Kindly,
Christel
Happy Holidays!
Kind Regards,
Mrs. Christel Hagens
Customer Service Agent
www.Shapeways.com
===============================
Link to model: http://www.shapeways.com/model/654487

Here is the model printed a few weeks ago, about 12cm long and 2cm wide
index.php?t=getfile&id=24343&private=0

  • Attachment: WP_000426.jpg
    (Size: 983.01KB, Downloaded 172 time(s))

[Updated on: Fri, 14 December 2012 11:34 UTC]

Re: more rejections of successfully printed pieces [message #58621 is a reply to message #58610 ] Fri, 14 December 2012 17:34 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar stonysmith  is currently offline stonysmith
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After the print you show in the picture, did you upload an updated copy of the file?

[Updated on: Fri, 14 December 2012 17:34 UTC]


Patience, Persistance, Politeness - the 3Ps will help us get us to Perfect Printed Products
Re: more rejections of successfully printed pieces [message #58627 is a reply to message #58621 ] Fri, 14 December 2012 19:10 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar decapod  is currently offline decapod
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After the print I discovered a detached shell which was fixed and updated on the same model id using the same file name.

I replied to the last email as I wasn't really happy about that and Christel has since replied that they're looking into it now.

If you believe you are right then I think it pays to persist as the first reply from customer service will try and put you off.
Re: Already printed model being rejected [message #58637 is a reply to message #53999 ] Fri, 14 December 2012 21:17 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar Youknowwho4eva  is currently offline Youknowwho4eva
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As I'm sure Stoney was getting to, if you update the file, it resets the printed before. Doesn't matter if it's the same file name. So that's why Christel can't see that it was printed before.


I learned a long time ago the wisest thing I can do is be on my own side, be an advocate for myself and others like me. -Maya Angelou
michael@shapeways.com Community Advocate
Re: Already printed model being rejected [message #58642 is a reply to message #58637 ] Fri, 14 December 2012 22:22 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar decapod  is currently offline decapod
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Youknowwho4eva wrote on Fri, 14 December 2012 21:17

As I'm sure Stoney was getting to, if you update the file, it resets the printed before. Doesn't matter if it's the same file name. So that's why Christel can't see that it was printed before.


I know that's not true.
I've seen screen dumps of their system when i had similar problems and it shows file versions and prints.
Re: Already printed model being rejected [message #58663 is a reply to message #58642 ] Sat, 15 December 2012 15:29 UTC Go to previous message
avatar stonysmith  is currently offline stonysmith
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Each time you upload, a new "Version #" is assigned (internally) to the model.
The external model# does not change, and the file name is whatever you uploaded.
The older versions of the model are kept.

Part of the reason for this is so that if you upload a model and order it, then change the model before it gets printed, you will get what you paid for: the first version (no changes allowed during the order stream).

If you upload any new version of a model, even if it is the same exact file as the previous time, that Version# is increased, and is then treated as though it has not been printed before. This is by design.. their system can't be sure whether you changed the model or not.

I have received in the past emails from Production "this model is particularly troublesome", but I will cut Shapeways some slack.. developing a method for that to be done on a consistent basis by 3rd party production teams (that may not speak my native language) is difficult. I don't know the specifics of how the files are transferred to the 3rd party. Imagine if they were sent over by CD.. there's no place to send messages (back)

Patience, Persistance, Politeness - the 3Ps will help us get us to Perfect Printed Products <grin>


Patience, Persistance, Politeness - the 3Ps will help us get us to Perfect Printed Products

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