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jump line in large models. [message #91201] Wed, 04 June 2014 13:29 UTC Go to next message
avatar jcbear  is currently offline jcbear
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On Friday 30 May 14 I took delivery of a print – standing human figure, actually a devil figure – approx 65 cm tall, in white sf.

It has a 1 mm sideways jump around the middle. I e-mailed customer service, received no reply, and eventually, poking round the website, found that the design guidelines had been amended with the following paragraph added:

For models larger than 33cm: Our Strong & Flexible 3D printers operate with two lasers at the same time. If a product in the printer is located in the overlap plane where the two lasers meet, miniscule calibration differences between the lasers may create a visible line on the surface of the product. We aim to arrange products in the printer away from the overlap plane. However, products larger than 33cm long in any direction may be too large to fit in one laser's area, so you may see a visible line along the overlap plane on your product.

I don't know when this change was made, but it must be relatively recent because I have not seen it before today [2 Jun 14] though I often consult the design rules. It may even be a reactive change, given queries from multiple customers. I assume there is no point in arguing about my print, given that the 'fine print' has changed, and I expect I can clean up the print.

But I am distinctly annoyed. Particularly given that the price of my 65 cm tall print was well into four figures. I very much doubt that I am alone in this situation.

Given the general precision of 3d printing, I do not understand why this problem occurs at all. Nor should anyone else. Surely the two lasers in the printing machine can be brought into closer alignment, or the machine improved/retrofitted so that this adjustment is achievable.

And a 1 mm misalignment at this scale is not, remotely, minuscule .
Re: jump line in large models. [message #91203 is a reply to message #91201 ] Wed, 04 June 2014 13:36 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar HOLDEN8702  is currently offline HOLDEN8702
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What a pity!

How about some photos?

regards

Luis
Re: jump line in large models. [message #91206 is a reply to message #91203 ] Wed, 04 June 2014 14:28 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar MitchellJetten  is currently offline MitchellJetten
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I see that Joost replied your email 5 days ago, requesting a picture so he can raise a complaint and have it investigated.
However I do not see any reply on his request from your side.

As for the text on the materials page, this has not been added recently, it's actually on the website for quite some time.


Kind regards,

Mitchell Jetten
Customer Service Coordinator
Shapeways
Re: jump line in large models. [message #91229 is a reply to message #91206 ] Wed, 04 June 2014 18:10 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar jcbear  is currently offline jcbear
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Thanks for this.

I did not get an e-mail from Joost, I'm afraid, assuming it went to jcbear@nf.sympatico.ca where I have been receiving messages from Shapeways including the occasional one from support people.

All I can say is, the last time I looked at the wsf material, the pgph about big models and the 2-laser issue was not there. I can't swear when that was, but not months ago or something like that.

I have attached images to this message [I think]. It looks to me like its the two-laser overlap effect.

Regards,

J C Bear

index.php?t=getfile&id=61100&private=0
index.php?t=getfile&id=61101&private=0
index.php?t=getfile&id=61102&private=0
index.php?t=getfile&id=61103&private=0

  • Attachment: P1010959.jpg
    (Size: 23.55KB, Downloaded 252 time(s))

  • Attachment: P1010960.jpg
    (Size: 28.18KB, Downloaded 250 time(s))

  • Attachment: P1010961.jpg
    (Size: 23.19KB, Downloaded 251 time(s))

Re: jump line in large models. [message #91231 is a reply to message #91229 ] Wed, 04 June 2014 18:15 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar HOLDEN8702  is currently offline HOLDEN8702
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It's a shame.

I have no words.
Re: jump line in large models. [message #91249 is a reply to message #91201 ] Wed, 04 June 2014 20:19 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar Bobbiethejean  is currently offline Bobbiethejean
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Ayeeee.... Yikes. Could you sand that down perhaps? ^__^;
Re: jump line in large models. [message #91252 is a reply to message #91206 ] Wed, 04 June 2014 20:30 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar mkroeker  is currently offline mkroeker
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MitchellJetten wrote on Wed, 04 June 2014 14:28


As for the text on the materials page, this has not been added recently, it's actually on the website for quite some time.

That paragraph does not look familiar ? Pity that the internet archive does not do more frequent snapshots (and pity that we as customers would have to resort to such means to be made aware of changes on the materials pages), but at least this paragraph was added later than February 17.
I guess you have some blanket disclaimer in your t&c that you reserve the right to change all your rules without notice, but such things do not actually instill confidence.
Re: jump line in large models. [message #91269 is a reply to message #91206 ] Wed, 04 June 2014 22:03 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar AmLachDesigns is currently online AmLachDesigns
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Quote:

As for the text on the materials page, this has not been added recently, it's actually on the website for quite some time.

I guess we could see when it changed from the easily accessible, comprehensive change log or a post on the forum from SW - now where might those be...

All sarcasm aside, I have not seen this paragraph before, either. It would be instructive to know whenever the Materials pages change as they are in effect SW's contract with the designers. Any changes should, imo, be very publicly made.
Re: jump line in large models. [message #91438 is a reply to message #91249 ] Fri, 06 June 2014 16:59 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar jcbear  is currently offline jcbear
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Thanks for this.

I expect that I can mechanically deal with the overlap line, one way or another – sanding, small files or other tools. I remain surprised that this should be necessary, however.

Aside from my own surprise, to put it mildly, at this issue and how it it has developed, and since this comment has been moved to Suggestions, I formalize my suggestion as follows:

If a bounding box is 650 mm long, it is hardly surprising that some people will use that fact to make models longer than 330 mm. A 650 mm long print is likely to be rather expensive, compared to smaller ones. Why should someone be expected to do extra finishing work on such a large, costly print as contrasted with something smaller? And – while emphasizing that I have no familiarity with the actual details of a printer's workings – I am surprised that this issue arises at all. It certainly seems as if this is something that can be handled with mechanical and/or software adjustments to the machine. So, I suggest that this issue can and should be fixed.
Re: jump line in large models. [message #91448 is a reply to message #91438 ] Fri, 06 June 2014 17:49 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar HOLDEN8702  is currently offline HOLDEN8702
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I'm sure that a customer (not designer) that makes a complaint for that issue, automatically gets a refund.

I have to repeat: It's a shame!

Somebody in purgatory loves the designers,... in an odd matter!
Re: jump line in large models. [message #91479 is a reply to message #91201 ] Fri, 06 June 2014 22:06 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar andrewsimonthomas  is currently offline andrewsimonthomas
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The way that these larger machines work is they use two lasers that need to have a slight overlap in order to make sure that they fuse properly. If there were just one laser for 650mm you'd see a certain amount of distortion in the print, so a single line in the model is a trade-off for an overall more accurate print.


[Updated on: Wed, 11 June 2014 15:12 UTC]


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Re: jump line in large models. [message #91482 is a reply to message #91479 ] Fri, 06 June 2014 22:48 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar HOLDEN8702  is currently offline HOLDEN8702
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andrewsimonthomas wrote on Fri, 06 June 2014 22:06

To aThe way that these larger machines work is they use two lasers that need to have a slight overlap in order to make sure that they fuse properly. If there were just one laser for 650mm you'd see a certain amount of distortion in the print, so a single line in the model is a trade-off for an overall more accurate print.





This means that a larger model is cheaper because it has this quality issues... No, wait! in larger models is applied the funny rule

"Bounding box pricing on big low density products

Large, extremely low density models printed in White Strong & Flexible are priced based on bounding box volume rather than material volume. For models with a bounding box over 10,000cm3 and a density less than or equal to 2.6%, the price is $.0385 per bounding box cm3 plus a base price of $1.50. See our blog post to learn more. "

(you can watch it in https://www.shapeways.com/materials/strong-and-flexible-plas tic ).

and this made the model too expensive and beyond our sad economy, as I discovered last summer with a model my own:

https://www.shapeways.com/model/1247074/1-144-brandenburg-ga te-ruins.html?modelId=1247074&materialId=6

Very nice. Too much over the real price, too much under a minimum of quality.

[Updated on: Fri, 06 June 2014 22:50 UTC]

Re: jump line in large models. [message #91509 is a reply to message #91482 ] Sat, 07 June 2014 12:38 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar mkroeker  is currently offline mkroeker
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Just out of curiosity (and sorry for increasing thread drift), what is the actual density of that Brandenburg gate model ? If I remember correctly, that density rule was imposed as a reaction to a huge wireframe sculpture, and while it is plausible that your hollow model is below 10% density (thus missing the
threshold for the volume discount), I would not expect it to be below the 2.6 limit that completely changes the pricing. (And if density is close to either of
the limits, it might be cost-effective to make some wall a little thicker, introduce a crossbar or even a free-floating small box).
Re: jump line in large models. [message #91510 is a reply to message #91509 ] Sat, 07 June 2014 12:47 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar HOLDEN8702  is currently offline HOLDEN8702
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Hi, Mkro.

It's 1.13 % desitity.
Re: jump line in large models. [message #91752 is a reply to message #91269 ] Wed, 11 June 2014 14:56 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar natalia  is currently offline natalia
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AmLachDesigns wrote on Wed, 04 June 2014 22:03

Quote:

As for the text on the materials page, this has not been added recently, it's actually on the website for quite some time.

I guess we could see when it changed from the easily accessible, comprehensive change log or a post on the forum from SW - now where might those be...

All sarcasm aside, I have not seen this paragraph before, either. It would be instructive to know whenever the Materials pages change as they are in effect SW's contract with the designers. Any changes should, imo, be very publicly made.




Hey AmLach,

Here is the easily accessible, comprehensive change log that is updated weekly:
Website Change Log

Also, any major changes are always announced in the Official Announcements thread - that first one on the very tippy top of the forums ;-)

Cheers,
Natalia


Shapeways Community Manager
Re: jump line in large models. [message #91756 is a reply to message #91752 ] Wed, 11 June 2014 15:06 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar AmLachDesigns is currently online AmLachDesigns
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Hi Natalia,

fair point.

However, I wonder how many people do not read locked threads because they assume they have already read it? Because the padlock never changes colour it it's impossible to tell, and after having been caught out several times before, now I don't bother.

Secondly, on the log where does it tell us when specific things have changed? In this specific instance, when was the text about the twin lasers added and where can we see this on the log? Imo the materials pages are not things that should be changed without highlighting the fact more than is the current case to designers. Otherwise we will have to go back to these pages every time to check that nothing has changed.
Re: jump line in large models. [message #91758 is a reply to message #91752 ] Wed, 11 June 2014 15:10 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar mkroeker  is currently offline mkroeker
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My point, and I guess his as well, was that such changes to the Materials pages are not currently reflected in your change log (nor anywhere else, not even by a "last changed" date on the Materials pages), so the only thing we can be sure of is that the text was added after February 17 (the day that archive.org took the latest snapshot of your site).
Re: jump line in large models. [message #91764 is a reply to message #91201 ] Wed, 11 June 2014 17:15 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar natalia  is currently offline natalia
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Ahh, I see what you mean now.

We usually announce separately any Design Guideline changes (like changing the rules for FUD)

The twin lasers thing has been part of our process since we got the Big Bertha machines (the big EOS printers that have the two lasers). THis is detailed on our Materials Page for Plastic under the heading:

"Max Bounding Box"

Theres a way to see how that page used to look before the visual refresh, to show you that it has always been on our website like Mitchell remembers -- hmm its an app called WayBackMAchine or something I think?? My memory is failing me, let me google it! ;-)

Natalia

[Updated on: Wed, 11 June 2014 17:16 UTC]


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Re: jump line in large models. [message #91773 is a reply to message #91758 ] Wed, 11 June 2014 18:34 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar stannum  is currently offline stannum
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AmLachDesigns wrote on Wed, 11 June 2014 15:06

However, I wonder how many people do not read locked threads because they assume they have already read it? Because the padlock never changes colour it it's impossible to tell, and after having been caught out several times before, now I don't bother.

Déjà vu. Yep, bug filled under suggestions (got moved IIRC, but it's a bug, just look at bottom of index pages, as useful as semaphores with two pink lights), with diagnosis and workaround (fix is changing a file, which is also provided for free as part of workaround). A previous bug report is 2 years old and counting.

mkroeker wrote on Wed, 11 June 2014 15:10

My point, and I guess his as well, was that such changes to the Materials pages are not currently reflected in your change log (nor anywhere else, not even by a "last changed" date on the Materials pages), so the only thing we can be sure of is that the text was added after February 17 (the day that archive.org took the latest snapshot of your site).

Were old big prints done with other machines? Because 650 × 350 × 550 mm was listed as maximum bound box for WSF for longer, without mention of the line issue.
Re: jump line in large models. [message #91797 is a reply to message #91773 ] Thu, 12 June 2014 07:04 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar MitchellJetten  is currently offline MitchellJetten
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Same machine!
Way back we did not mention this on our website which caused even more frustration (people expecting us to reprint the model without any overlap, which is impossible)
I think this was added when we changed the layout of the page.

As soon as your model is larger than 35 cm we will have to print it horizontal, meaning it will have an overlap.
We always try to minimize the overlap, but it will be visible, always.
In case of the model in this topic, it's bigger than it should/can be and thus we should help him out at customer service.


Kind regards,

Mitchell Jetten
Customer Service Coordinator
Shapeways
Re: jump line in large models. [message #91799 is a reply to message #91797 ] Thu, 12 June 2014 07:20 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar mkroeker  is currently offline mkroeker
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I guess everybody actually applauds the addition to the materials information, just please mention such changes somewhere (and please do not tell us that some page has "always" been that way when anyone can just enter the page url on web.archive.org to see the changes for themselves. We want to trust that what information there is does not change surreptitiously).
BTW the old format pages linked to an excerpt from an EOS-sponsored diploma thesis that contained some useful background information on wall/wire quality variation with thickness - could this be brought back, or is it outdated ?
Re: jump line in large models. [message #91810 is a reply to message #91799 ] Thu, 12 June 2014 13:52 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar andrewsimonthomas  is currently offline andrewsimonthomas
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I think tutorial you are talking about is here

https://www.shapeways.com/tutorials/design_rules_for_3d_prin ting



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Re: jump line in large models. [message #92031 is a reply to message #91797 ] Mon, 16 June 2014 18:18 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar jcbear  is currently offline jcbear
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MitchellJetten wrote on Thu, 12 June 2014 07:04

Same machine!
Way back we did not mention this on our website which caused even more frustration (people expecting us to reprint the model without any overlap, which is impossible)
I think this was added when we changed the layout of the page.

As soon as your model is larger than 35 cm we will have to print it horizontal, meaning it will have an overlap.
We always try to minimize the overlap, but it will be visible, always.
In case of the model in this topic, it's bigger than it should/can be and thus we should help him out at customer service.






Mitchell Jetten's comments usefully clarify the basis of this problem, and its several aspects.

1. My model is not bigger than it "can" be – it fits in the bounding box and was in fact printed!

2. It is certainly not bigger than it "should" be – I wanted a version of the model that big! If Shapeways could make a version 200 cm high I might be interested in that, too, but this size is appropriate for what I have in mind at the moment.

3. And this is not a new problem. "Way back", this issue was not highlighted on the materials page. And some customers wanted big prints that used the 650 mm dimension of the bounding box – no surprise. And there was "even more frustration." Again, no surprise.

Now, I'm assuming "Big Bertha" machines, as characterized by Natalia, are the EOS P760, which is their 2-laser model. The manufacturer's general descriptive information does mention that the machine can make components up to 700 cm long. However, they are more interested in emphasizing the output volume possible with it. Their description includes a particularly relevant sentence: "The maximum building height of 580 mm enables the construction of larger plastic components without the need for part assembly after production." The manufacturers see this as primarily a volume production machine that can build 580 mm high, not a 700-cm-long machine.

Shapeways is naturally interested in producing 3d prints as quickly as possible. This is completely reasonable for them and for their customers, and presumably why they have equipped themselves with higher-production machines.

And that worldview may well account for Mitchell's characterizing my print as bigger than it "should" be, and bigger than it "can" be, even though it is manifestly printable, and even though it is the size I wanted or I wouldn't have ordered it that size. And even though it's not the first such model to give him headaches.

It's the difference between overall production volume and what some customers want. From experience -- mine, Mitchell's, and other customers', a solution would be to describe the capacity for larger prints as something like:

'Maximum bounding box 650x350x550. Note, however, that this size uses a 2-laser printer and models larger than 350 by 350 by 550 will [not may, will ] have a visible line where the lasers overlap in printing. This must be mechanically removed by the customer, if it is not desirable.'

In such cases, a discount should be offered, given the time/tools/whatever required to get rid of the line, especially as a large print will be an expensive one. Depending on the print, this work could take a few hours.

Further, wording clearly describing this aspect of the printing process should have been in place on the materials page from the time that these relatively large prints were first offered. You can't make everybody happy, but avoiding unpleasant surprises does help quite a bit.
Re: jump line in large models. [message #92060 is a reply to message #92031 ] Mon, 16 June 2014 20:34 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar AmLachDesigns is currently online AmLachDesigns
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Try reading the sentence Mitchell wrote this way (my change in bold):

Quote:

In case of the model in this topic, the jump line is bigger than it should/can be and thus we should help him out at customer service.


I think Mitchell was saying that he thinks your jump line is not correct printing and that they will help you solve your problem possibly with a re-print...all my inference, of course, I'm sure Mitchell will correct this if I am wrong.

[Updated on: Mon, 16 June 2014 20:35 UTC]

Re: jump line in large models. [message #92063 is a reply to message #91810 ] Mon, 16 June 2014 20:42 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar AmLachDesigns is currently online AmLachDesigns
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andrewsimonthomas wrote on Thu, 12 June 2014 13:52

I think tutorial you are talking about is here

https://www.shapeways.com/tutorials/design_rules_for_3d_prin ting



This is very useful if it still applies - I'm a +1 for mkoeker's (implied) request to put a link somewhere on the materials pages. It's not really a tutorial, is it?
Re: jump line in large models. [message #92086 is a reply to message #92063 ] Tue, 17 June 2014 06:50 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar MitchellJetten  is currently offline MitchellJetten
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I read your post twice, and I'm unsure if I understood what you tried to say, I'm really sorry.

AmLachDesigns "fixed" my sentence, thank you.
I was indeed referring to your so called "jump line", or what we call a laser overlap.

The overlap of lasers on your model is worse than our quality team should have approved.
If you contact Customer service (service@shapeways.com) we can have our production team investigate this (check the machine settings) and provide a suitable solution.


Kind regards,

Mitchell Jetten
Customer Service Coordinator
Shapeways
Re: jump line in large models. [message #92243 is a reply to message #92086 ] Wed, 18 June 2014 23:31 UTC Go to previous message
avatar jcbear  is currently offline jcbear
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Mitchell,

I took the "it's" in your final sentence to mean "model," and the rest of my interpretation/argument flowed from there. My apologies and my thanks for your patience.

And thanks to AmLach for figuring this out.

I will put together a message to service, and send it.

Thanks,

J C Bear

 
   
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