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Marvel removed my models [message #69977] Mon, 17 June 2013 19:17 UTC Go to next message
avatar paulelderdesign  is currently offline paulelderdesign
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Hi guys

I recieved a C&D (Cease and Desist) email from marvel asking me to remove all my work that ressembled anything of theirs. Anyone else had a similar experience?
They've also shot themselves in the foot too as I'm a product designer who will think twice about working with them in the future :/

Paul
Re: Marvel removed my models [message #69982 is a reply to message #69977 ] Mon, 17 June 2013 20:04 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar roofoo  is currently offline roofoo
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Interesting. If I might ask, what were the products they took issue with?


http://www.eyephoriadesign.com http://www.shapeways.com/shops/eyephoriadesign http://www.etsy.com/shop/eyephoriadesign
Re: Marvel removed my models [message #69986 is a reply to message #69977 ] Mon, 17 June 2013 20:35 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar barkingdigger  is currently offline barkingdigger
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Copyright is a minefield! I assume you've satisfied yourself that the C&D email was genuine? I thought big stuff like that was still done the old-fashioned way, with ink on paper. The Interwebs are full of scoundrels and scammers, after all...
Re: Marvel removed my models [message #70000 is a reply to message #69986 ] Tue, 18 June 2013 01:44 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar UniverseBecoming  is currently offline UniverseBecoming
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Did it come from Shapeways, like an email from a Shapeways employee or something like that? Or did it come to you some other way? I agree with Barkingdigger in his or her thinking. For me, when comes to online the very first thing I think is FAKE! Then, I slowly work from there to determine the reality if it can be determined.

I once received a C&D from Zazzle employees who were contacted by Buzz Aldrin's company for using one of his moon shots. Very Happy






It always was. It always was because somethingness cannot spawn from nothingness. And in the was of the past there is the forever of the now. Only now. Only now and nothing new, for anything new would add to the infinite, yet there can only be one infinite. Only one. The universe is only becoming something new in the delusion of our minds. This delusion that makes life worth living in our perceived universe becoming.
Re: Marvel removed my models [message #70014 is a reply to message #70000 ] Tue, 18 June 2013 07:37 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar Arnaud3D  is currently offline Arnaud3D
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That's a concern I had with this whole concept of "custom design", are there any rules right now ? To what point would they consider it is custom or genuine, like just changing one small detail would be enough ? (when I see how Apple and Samsung can go to court just for a square shape, I guess its more complicated Laughing )
Re: Marvel removed my models [message #70027 is a reply to message #70000 ] Tue, 18 June 2013 12:54 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar paulelderdesign  is currently offline paulelderdesign
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Definitely not fake. I know Marvel very well

Now Marvel is here too?


The email was from Gregory Pan he's well known in the Replica industry and is hired to sniff out the breaches in copyright.
The models in question are posted below as you can see I don't do things by halves and as a dedicated cosplayer accuracy is
a key part of my job.

Paul

https://fbcdn-sphotos-a-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/1003962_391573024297386_1737249662_n.jpg

https://fbcdn-sphotos-g-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/481878_380602278727794_616192479_n.jpg

https://fbcdn-sphotos-c-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-prn1/946866_380498888738133_430259798_n.jpg

https://fbcdn-sphotos-f-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/944407_390004054454283_1326596335_n.jpg

https://fbcdn-sphotos-a-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/1001448_391873040934051_455034168_n.jpg

https://fbcdn-sphotos-h-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/575376_380464205408268_575057756_n.jpg




[Updated on: Tue, 18 June 2013 22:20 UTC]

Re: Marvel removed my models [message #70028 is a reply to message #70027 ] Tue, 18 June 2013 13:18 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar barkingdigger  is currently offline barkingdigger
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Wow - nice work! I hate to say it, but it looks like they've got you bang to rights. If you are selling these items then your only courses of action are 1) withdraw them, 2) come to some kind of licensing deal, or 3) get really clever about selling a bunch of separate mechanical "shapes" that can be assembled into something suspiciously similar to the Ironman props. (That last option isn't very safe or indeed advised for obvious legal reasons, but I do know some of the bigger plastic kit manufacturers sell things like "1/4 ton US truck" to avoid the Jeep copyright, and one model train mfgr sold a familiar brown panel van with buff decals for "United Postal Service" and "Parcel Delivery Company" that could be cut up to make the trademarked logo of a well-known courrier firm...)

Since Option 2 is the most appropriate, be sure to point out the actual profit margins (not the SW print cost) and predicted unit sales so they can see how much or how little they stand to gain from the deal, as it may convince them not to bother with their higjhest-priced lawyers. Good luck!

Of course, there's nothing to stop you making as many copies for personal use as you like.
Re: Marvel removed my models [message #70064 is a reply to message #69977 ] Tue, 18 June 2013 21:07 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar natalia  is currently offline natalia
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Hi guys,

I'm sad to say, but this does sometimes happen.

Shapeways enables people to 3D print whatever they can imagine, which unfortunately occasionally includes things that already exist and may be covered by copyright.

While we do what we can to ensure the content on Shapeways is appropriate, we cannot realistically review every model uploaded for a possible copyright infringement. We are also unable to determine whether the user has obtained a license for copyrighted content. As a service provider, our liability is protected by the Digital Millenium Copyright Act under their Safe Harbor provision. (More details can be found here on Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital_Millennium_Copyright_Ac t)

What this means is that while Shapeways is protected by the DMCA, individual users, like paulelderdesign, are not protected and are thus liable for any penalties resulting from copyright infringement. We thus do not encourage infringing known copyrights.

On a more positive note, I have seen cases of licensing being worked out with profit sharing, so it is worth investigating that possibility.

Best,
Natalia

[Updated on: Thu, 27 June 2013 18:41 UTC]


Shapeways Community Manager
Re: Marvel removed my models [message #70072 is a reply to message #70064 ] Tue, 18 June 2013 23:12 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar paulelderdesign  is currently offline paulelderdesign
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Hiya Natalia

I contacted them and asked for a compromise in sharing the funds or just royalties. Wish me luck? Smile

Paul
Re: Marvel removed my models [message #70128 is a reply to message #70072 ] Wed, 19 June 2013 21:17 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar Bathsheba  is currently offline Bathsheba
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I wish that I could. But your shop is wall-to-wall copyright infringements...I'm not sure what makes you think that's likely to turn out well.


-Bathsheba
http://bathsheba.com
Re: Marvel removed my models [message #70135 is a reply to message #70072 ] Wed, 19 June 2013 22:23 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar waetherman  is currently offline waetherman
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Yeah, I think you're on the wrong side on this. While I think that Marvel should certainly support cos players and hackers alike, when your hobby becomes a business that is built on the work of others, it crosses the line in my opinion. Technically you probably can't even make this stuff for yourself but you certainly can't sell it.
Re: Marvel removed my models [message #70140 is a reply to message #70135 ] Wed, 19 June 2013 22:59 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar paulelderdesign  is currently offline paulelderdesign
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Fair enough but which models do you mean in particular? because it states that "I make replicas" and the following companies have featured my work in good light several times

Stan Winston Studios AKA Legacy Effects link to my work being promoted is on the Hugsy and Endo arm pendant. I also run the Stan Winston page on facebook Wink

Twentieth Century Fox I have worked for them promoting Aliens in the past and am friends with most of the cast of the films. I can't quote who said this but a very well known hollywood actor was interested in my pulse rifle when I was in a film with him last year, in fact Fox knew what I did when I was hired to do the Predators promotion I gave them my website Smile

Not defending the copyright just stating a few facts. I'm also renaming my models and removing the logos

Paul

[Updated on: Wed, 19 June 2013 23:01 UTC]

Re: Marvel removed my models [message #70145 is a reply to message #70140 ] Thu, 20 June 2013 00:51 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar paulelderdesign  is currently offline paulelderdesign
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paulelderdesign wrote on Wed, 19 June 2013 22:59

Fair enough but which models do you mean in particular? because it states that "I make replicas"




I'm also quite intrigued to how this isn't breaking copyright? Arc Reactors on Shapeways Confused


Paul
Re: Marvel removed my models [message #70159 is a reply to message #70145 ] Thu, 20 June 2013 12:28 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar AmLachDesigns  is currently offline AmLachDesigns
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The fact that SW is stuffed with IP infringing models does not mean that it is ok. (And who knows which of them infringe, and which have permission?) Perhaps all these other models will one day trigger C&D notices, but this does not help you, since you have already received one.

An analogy: if you are ticketed for speeding, it will cut no ice with anyone that everyone else was speeding.

You are clearly a very skilled modeller: perhaps you should create some stuff of your own and then no-one will be able to dictate to you.
Re: Marvel removed my models [message #70167 is a reply to message #70145 ] Thu, 20 June 2013 14:33 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar barkingdigger  is currently offline barkingdigger
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Well, there's certainly a lot of ARC Reactors available here! I can only assume the others either have permission, or are ripe for their own C&D orders...

As for your issue, you need to talk to their guys and make your case that a) your product doesn't hurt their "brand" in any way, and b) that it actively promotes the "brand". (Any free PR is good PR, eh?) Then you need to work out the true cost of making your CADwork, document your sales to date, and project your potential future sales in order to work out how much actual profit is up for negotiation. Chances are it's too small for them to care.

If they are dealt with fairly and openly they may just see the sense of letting you promote their franchise! (Trouble is the easiest thing for the lawyers to do is say "no" - it protects their trademark/copyright with the least effort. Your sales pitch has to break through this barrier.)

As for making items for yourself, there is no restriction that I know of. All the legal stuff comes into play if and when you try to sell, or if you use the item in public to the detriment of their reputation. Simply carving out your own ARC Reactor at home ain't no crime...
Re: Marvel removed my models [message #70168 is a reply to message #70167 ] Thu, 20 June 2013 14:45 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar paulelderdesign  is currently offline paulelderdesign
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I'm negotiating with Gregory from Marvel now.

He has made a very valid point, even after providing my sales overview and discussing it, there is not enough revenue to warrant a license.
I do however like Barkdigger's idea of the free promotion for them as that's what I do in cosplay and it's all good for charity and Marvel as far
as I'm aware.





https://fbcdn-sphotos-g-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/6306_386203624834326_110270855_n.jpg

https://fbcdn-sphotos-g-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/408496_317410648380291_140846893_n.jpg

Paul

[Updated on: Sat, 22 June 2013 21:05 UTC]

Re: Marvel removed my models [message #70170 is a reply to message #70168 ] Thu, 20 June 2013 15:18 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar roofoo  is currently offline roofoo
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You've got some amazing stuff, I hope you can come to an agreement.


http://www.eyephoriadesign.com http://www.shapeways.com/shops/eyephoriadesign http://www.etsy.com/shop/eyephoriadesign
Re: Marvel removed my models [message #70172 is a reply to message #69977 ] Thu, 20 June 2013 15:31 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar MrNibbles  is currently offline MrNibbles
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Lawyers are sticky wickets. There was once a sci-fi themed space restaurant in North Chicago called the Star Voyager Restaurant & Bar and I believe they had the name before the Voyager series came out. The idea of the place was to loosely emulate a space station restaurant. They had some fake portholes with space images behind them, space art, and display panels on some of the walls. The owners tried very hard to not infringe on Paramount IP but to no avail. After the lawyers did a walk through they found all sorts of things offensive. For example some of the fake display panels on the walls had "borders" and the lawyers claimed they had a copyright on space ship instrumentation display borders. Yeah you could try to fight the lawyers but in they end they will outlast you.

.http://img.trekmovie.com/images/restvoybar.jpg
http://img.trekmovie.com/images/svresthall1.jpg


http://www.spaceagewebmedia.com/starvygr/index.htm
http://www.flickr.com/photos/70417572@N08/sets/7215763091604 5912/
http://trekmovie.com/2008/07/06/trek-eats-a-look-at-trek-the med-eateries/
Re: Marvel removed my models [message #70175 is a reply to message #70167 ] Thu, 20 June 2013 15:47 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar UniverseBecoming  is currently offline UniverseBecoming
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What I find interesting is how 3D printing its self plays into this and other situations like this. The digital aspect of it that is. You see, Paul is not selling anything tangible. He doesn't even know whom is the customers are or even if anything has even sold unless Shapeways tells him about it. What he IS selling is a set of non-tangible instructions that tells a machine at Shapeways what to do.

Here's an analogy. I walk into a machine shop and verbally tell a machinist how to make a certain item. They then make the actual tangible item using my verbal instructions with the agreement that if they sell the item that they have to give me a portion of the sale. So they then sell the item and they disburse to me my share as agreed.

So then, here comes a copyright holder waving a C&D order! Who'd is liable? Certainly not MEEEE!!! HAHAHA!! Laughing All I did was tell the machinist what to do! Very Happy

So the machinist exclaims, "HEY NOW! DON'T LOOK AT ME!" I'VE GOT INSTRUCTIONS COMING IN FOR TENS OF THOUSANDS OF ITEMS PER YEAR HERE!" HAHAHA!!! Laughing "Oh yeah and, [whispering] that's why there's the Digital Millennium Copyright Act. CHA CHINGGG!!!" hehehe Razz

And so the copyright holder is standing there with a blank stare.

Very Happy

By the way great work Paul, I can appreciate the expenditure of effort that when into the creation of everything you have up. The way I see it, nobody cares about copyright infringement unless you're making enough money to make it worth their effort to tell you to stop. It's sort of like how farmers don't care much about people helping themselves to the outer fringes of a crop. It's just when some pulls up driving a harvesting machine that they tend to take notice. So to get a C&D is like a compliment in a way, cuz it shows that you're doing too well at what you've set out to do. Smile






It always was. It always was because somethingness cannot spawn from nothingness. And in the was of the past there is the forever of the now. Only now. Only now and nothing new, for anything new would add to the infinite, yet there can only be one infinite. Only one. The universe is only becoming something new in the delusion of our minds. This delusion that makes life worth living in our perceived universe becoming.
Re: Marvel removed my models [message #70176 is a reply to message #70175 ] Thu, 20 June 2013 15:58 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar AmLachDesigns  is currently offline AmLachDesigns
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Quote:


And so the copyright holder is standing there with a blank stare.



Nice idea, but not really how it works. The IP owner can see that his rights are being infringed upon, he is going to get the item taken down or if not (and if he is inclined to proceed) seek redress (money!!!). If he cannot get satisfaction from the designer he will go after SW, who are after all a much juicier target with (presumably) deeper pockets.

Now this discussion has been had before: SW say they are not responsible for the content (and point to the disclaimer that we all agree to each and every time we upload a model) and that they simply provide a way for the designer to sell his or her product. Others agree with the scenario that you describe where SW is the seller and the designer has merely licensed the rights to their design.

Either way, when presented with a C&D, if the designer does not take down the offending articles I would guess that SW would, and pretty damn lickety-split too!

[Updated on: Thu, 20 June 2013 15:59 UTC]

Re: Marvel removed my models [message #70179 is a reply to message #70176 ] Thu, 20 June 2013 16:20 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar UniverseBecoming  is currently offline UniverseBecoming
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It's my understanding that that's the beauty of the Digital Millenium Copyright Act. Nothing is actionable financially UNLESS there is noncompliance. It's the non-tangible digital aspect coming into play. Whereas, if there were no digital aspect and the Digital Millennium Copyright Act could not be invoked, then the copyright holder could seek compensation in the normal way.

I know about this from researching about my rights to my own digital stuff, but I'm not very good at studying up on technicalities so I could very well have it completely wrong. Smile






It always was. It always was because somethingness cannot spawn from nothingness. And in the was of the past there is the forever of the now. Only now. Only now and nothing new, for anything new would add to the infinite, yet there can only be one infinite. Only one. The universe is only becoming something new in the delusion of our minds. This delusion that makes life worth living in our perceived universe becoming.
Re: Marvel removed my models [message #70181 is a reply to message #70179 ] Thu, 20 June 2013 16:31 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar AmLachDesigns  is currently offline AmLachDesigns
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Quote:

It's my understanding that that's the beauty of the Digital Millenium Copyright Act. Nothing is actionable financially UNLESS there is noncompliance.

You may well be right. What I am saying is that there will be compliance one way or the other. If a designer decided to 'make a stand' then I think that SW would take down the models if asked.

But, I should emphasise that this is my opinion: I do not represent SW, and cannot, do not speak for them.

[Updated on: Thu, 20 June 2013 16:32 UTC]

Re: Marvel removed my models [message #70182 is a reply to message #70181 ] Thu, 20 June 2013 16:37 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar UniverseBecoming  is currently offline UniverseBecoming
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Oh, I see. Yep! No doubt! Very Happy






It always was. It always was because somethingness cannot spawn from nothingness. And in the was of the past there is the forever of the now. Only now. Only now and nothing new, for anything new would add to the infinite, yet there can only be one infinite. Only one. The universe is only becoming something new in the delusion of our minds. This delusion that makes life worth living in our perceived universe becoming.
Re: Marvel removed my models [message #70232 is a reply to message #69977 ] Fri, 21 June 2013 06:09 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar alienology  is currently offline alienology
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I mean.... I do think it is really lame from Marvel to go after fans who spend time to promote Marvel's brand.
However.... these 3D models I see in this thread, are pretty much direct copies of props and sets from movies, and that was done by production Art Department for Marvel and paid by Marvel. That production team designed it, so they , Marvel, own it.
So - they certainly have right to ask you to take it down.

It is lame that they do, really.... it is not like you were doing huge business there... but, as there would be some profit there....you know, there was a concept designer or a prop guy somewhere (likely here in LA) who designed it. I sometimes do that. (no I did not work on Iron Man movies but did on X-Men etc.)

I actually would like to see him / her get a small percentage from all such copies Smile Fair is fair.
But tough luck there... MArvel corporate will take money and Art Dept guy got paid back during the production. Studio owns everything. Such is the game.

Maybe you try making something... well... "inspired" by these props... not creating almost exact copies. Not OK.

As much as I don't like corporate bullying... they are right here.

Igor
Re: Marvel removed my models [message #70627 is a reply to message #69977 ] Thu, 27 June 2013 22:21 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar lensman  is currently offline lensman
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I too received a C&D letter from your friend at Marvel. I started a thread HERE without knowing about this one. My ITEM is pretty lame compared to your fantastic stuff. Haven't sold even one of mine and would have been surprised had I done so!

Lawyers don't give a rat's digestive tract exit about the little man (clearly, you ain't so little) when they have millions of dollars backing them.

As far as I'm concerned bad press is bad press, and Marvel have slipped down my totem of respect... Wish I could get my money back for all the comics I bought when I was a kid!

At least, Paul, you're possibly in a position to tell them where to go in the future.


Glenn ------ My Website Third Dimension Jewellery
Re: Marvel removed my models [message #70632 is a reply to message #70627 ] Fri, 28 June 2013 02:13 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar paulelderdesign  is currently offline paulelderdesign
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Quote:

At least, Paul, you're possibly in a position to tell them where to go in the future.


That's pretty hard for me to do now As I was offered a job by them. Got an email with a signed agreement to fax and everything Surprised

Paul


Re: Marvel removed my models [message #70634 is a reply to message #70632 ] Fri, 28 June 2013 02:30 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar ppoz  is currently offline ppoz
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congrats! Laughing
Re: Marvel removed my models [message #70635 is a reply to message #70634 ] Fri, 28 June 2013 02:41 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar paulelderdesign  is currently offline paulelderdesign
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ppoz wrote on Fri, 28 June 2013 02:30

congrats! Laughing


Thanks it's hard to be bitter when they start throwing an opportunity like this at me. I bet the person who tipped them off is laughing on the other side of their face now lol. You could call this a Shapeways Success story Very Happy

Paul
Re: Marvel removed my models [message #70642 is a reply to message #69977 ] Fri, 28 June 2013 10:12 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar lensman  is currently offline lensman
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Haha, too funny. Well done. Let's hope no-one rips off your future designs!


Glenn ------ My Website Third Dimension Jewellery
Re: Marvel removed my models [message #70652 is a reply to message #70635 ] Fri, 28 June 2013 12:37 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar barkingdigger  is currently offline barkingdigger
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Well done, Paul! Glad it had a happy ending. (Any chance you can tell us anything about what you'll be doing? I assume designing cosplay items...)
Re: Marvel removed my models [message #70653 is a reply to message #69977 ] Fri, 28 June 2013 13:25 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar natalia  is currently offline natalia
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Ha congratulations Paul!

A happy ending indeed Smile

Natalia


Shapeways Community Manager
Re: Marvel removed my models [message #70659 is a reply to message #70653 ] Fri, 28 June 2013 15:43 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar paulelderdesign  is currently offline paulelderdesign
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Did you get to speak to Greg in the end Natalia? I was hoping I had you to thank Smile x

Paul
Re: Marvel removed my models [message #70690 is a reply to message #69977 ] Fri, 28 June 2013 21:19 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar natalia  is currently offline natalia
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Nope, it was all you Paul!


Shapeways Community Manager
Re: Marvel removed my models [message #70776 is a reply to message #70690 ] Mon, 01 July 2013 17:10 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar miaka618  is currently offline miaka618
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Well this thread was in interesting read. Congratulations!
Re: Marvel removed my models [message #71209 is a reply to message #70776 ] Tue, 09 July 2013 03:35 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar PeregrineStudios  is currently offline PeregrineStudios
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Just weighing in here - Natalia also contacted me with Marvel's cease-and-desist for my Avengers pendant (no pics, sadly, lost 'em). Looks like Shapeways just came up on their radar and they did a sweep.

EDIT: And yes, Natalia did tell me that if I did not remove it (or make it private), Shapeways would be forced to do so - Marvel is not a group of people to play hardball with Laughing

[Updated on: Tue, 09 July 2013 03:37 UTC]

Re: Marvel removed my models [message #71227 is a reply to message #71209 ] Tue, 09 July 2013 09:32 UTC Go to previous message
avatar paulelderdesign  is currently offline paulelderdesign
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I'm pretty sure I speak for Marvel on this but don't quote me but making them for yourself is fine. I'm a professional cosplayer and Tony Stark is my character Smile A lot of the Iron Man 3 stuff I made was just for Me. I'll check I'm chatting to them soon Cool

https://fbcdn-sphotos-h-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/480441_403282743126414_1521281320_n.jpg

https://fbcdn-sphotos-e-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/1016269_403548419766513_239583065_n.jpg

Paul

 
   
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