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Re: Preventing Rejections [message #70673 is a reply to message #70672 ] Fri, 28 June 2013 18:45 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar hunterseeker5  is currently offline hunterseeker5
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PeregrineStudios wrote on Fri, 28 June 2013 18:31

Hang on, now, hunterseeker. You have your complaints, and that's fine, and I'm with you to some degree, but slow down. There's a very big difference between complaining to Shapeways about issues that need attention, and actively accusing your fellow designers of shilling for Shapeways or being Shapeways apologists if they state that they have much fewer complaints. Let's have a little more respect in here.



If you attempt to de-legitimize someone's argument by ignoring their points there are three options: you're not sufficiently intelligent to comprehend the argument, you didn't actually read the argument, or you're a shill. I went out on the limb and assumed it wasn't the first one, so offered up the two alternatives. You're absolutely correct though, it could be the former however people tend to find that insinuation insulting.

Lets be clear, saying you've not had as many rejection issues is not specifically what I'm targeting here as being, at best, apologist. Its things like:

"many mistakes happen"
"Murphy's law applies on everything, we are all humans"
"...on such a large scale they operate these days it's impossible to change things in a day/week/month"
or my favorite:
"I believe that Shapeways does everything in their power to correct faults and mistakes and make sure they don't happen again"

So okay, if thats not apologizing and making excuses for Shapeways, what in your mind would someone have to say to constitute that position?

*edit*
Side note, I'm leaving for the weekend in a few hours, so feel free to have the last word on the subject as I feel I've made my point. Smile

[Updated on: Fri, 28 June 2013 18:46 UTC]

Re: Preventing Rejections [message #70674 is a reply to message #70672 ] Fri, 28 June 2013 18:45 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar MitchellJetten  is currently offline MitchellJetten
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Hold on Hunterseeker.

Quote:

eg. model rejected based on something which was explicitly stated to be allowed (like multiple shells in SLS nylon)


Shapeways does not reject models if they have multiple parts in 1 file (if material allows it), however we do reject if you are trying to print a hand with 10 fingers and we spot that the 10th finger is not attached to the rest of the hand, even when the part is just separated by 0.01mm, it's still considered as loose shell

Reason for this is that there is a small gap which might not get fused during the printing process and thus you will receive a bag with 2 parts, Hand and 9 fingers + a separate finger.


Kind regards,

Mitchell Jetten
Customer Service Coordinator
Shapeways
Re: Preventing Rejections [message #70675 is a reply to message #70674 ] Fri, 28 June 2013 18:55 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar hunterseeker5  is currently offline hunterseeker5
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Mitchell Very Happy I missed you, and thought you'd been lost or just transferred to somewhere that you'd be shouted at less. (background, Mitchell has thus far been the ONLY custom service representative I've spoken with who has actually resolved an issue with a false rejection. That was, as I recall, almost a year ago though, but I was about to move to another 3D print service and he renewed my faith in Shapeways at the time.)

As to your specific point
"Shapeways does not reject models if they have multiple parts in 1 file (if material allows it)"

The specific case to which I was previously referring regarded SLS nylon that does supposedly allow it, and in this particular instance it was three parts which were meant to actually be separated when the user received the model. (I started implementing sprues after an earlier multiple parts issue) This point was argued, but unsuccessfully. Once a model has been canceled though, and the credit returned to a customer, you can't exactly take the money back again though which is probably part of the problem with the system. Thats a different argument though.

I'm so thrilled to see you're still alive and kicking though. Very Happy
Re: Preventing Rejections [message #70677 is a reply to message #70675 ] Fri, 28 June 2013 19:32 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar numarul7 is currently online numarul7
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Shapeways please check this i.materialise.com and sculpteo , i.materialise it is the direct competitor to Shapeways and it is RUSSIA based yet have Titanium printing, Platinum printing and when something it is printed once they print it from that on without complaints , some designers tend to move to them due Platinum option and pure Gold option.

Any designer lost from you it is a win for them , think about it! And make a practical solution for this type of problems! A better check script on the server to analyze the objects.

For money intake reported in E-MAIL to all we expect that invested money to be used to solve this kinda of problem.

Hire programmers , hire people to solve this and cut the stress on the designers or your busyness will end slow and for good and I.Materialise , sculpteo etc will grow from your failures.

Don`t tell us that you can`t solve it and etc , hire programmers and do the job.

[Updated on: Fri, 28 June 2013 19:52 UTC] by Moderator


numarul7 jewelry and design
Re: Preventing Rejections [message #70685 is a reply to message #70674 ] Fri, 28 June 2013 21:04 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar stannum  is currently offline stannum
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Mitchell Jetten wrote on Fri, 28 June 2013 18:45


Quote:

eg. model rejected based on something which was explicitly stated to be allowed (like multiple shells in SLS nylon)


Shapeways does not reject models if they have multiple parts in 1 file (if material allows it), however we do reject if you are trying to print a hand with 10 fingers and we spot that the 10th finger is not attached to the rest of the hand, even when the part is just separated by 0.01mm, it's still considered as loose shell

Reason for this is that there is a small gap which might not get fused during the printing process and thus you will receive a bag with 2 parts, Hand and 9 fingers + a separate finger.

There is also the case in which the staff reports multiple shells as a problem, but it has printed multiple times that way, all of them ending in a solid single part product. The customer keep on pushing and buying, luckly. It was printed after all, and again it ended as single mass. Shells were counted at wrong time.
Re: Preventing Rejections [message #70686 is a reply to message #62565 ] Fri, 28 June 2013 21:06 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar natalia  is currently offline natalia
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Hi guys,

As Bart said, we are reading this thread and I'm really sorry that we have not responded sooner. Resolving issues with your models are our #1 priority I assure you!

We really do appreciate your suggestions! Some of them are great ideas and some we are already acting on, so we want to share with you some more detail about the many ways we are working to fix rejections.

We have all talked a lot about implementing a "printed before" flag, and while this seems like a magic bullet, it is only a small part of a complex puzzle.

Because we want you to be able to create whatever you can imagine, we check every single ordered model to ensure that it will retain its quality during the production, cleaning, packing, and shipping processes. We want to work with you to resolve any potential issues that your model may have, and the way we (currently) do this is by sending rejection emails to help you improve your models.

Because we would love your help in resolving any issues that we find, we welcome and encourage you to contact us! It's absolutely worth emailing us if you disagree with the rejection reason so we can resolve it together. We'll be the first to admit that our processes are far from perfect, but as we are constantly working to improve, we would love to continue having conversations with you on this topic.

With that said, we would like to give you a bit of insight into our processes as we have several model checks in place. We investigate the production history and ensure quality at each of these production checks.

1. Automatic check on upload to ensure printability

2. Production
This is all about checking the model and flagging it for rejection. Going back to the "printed before" flag, I'm happy to say we now have the first step of this type of feature in our system. Specifically, we can now see how many successful prints there have been of a particular model version. Basically, if the rate is higher than 50% successful we will print it, and not reject it. And most importantly, this flagging only works for a specific model version.

When revising a model's design, make sure you update your model via uploading new file revisions on the model edit page, not by uploading a new model via the create page.

3. Supply Chain
Here we can modify the rejection reason, to give you more context or details. Our production checks involve us analyzing the production history for your specific model. Again, it is important to mention here that when revising a model's design, make sure you update your model via uploading new file revisions on the model edit page, not by uploading a new model (via the create page).

Like I mentioned earlier, this is not a 'be all, end all' system, but rather it is the beginning of having a comprehensive printed before flag. This is the only way we can keep track of your specific model and see that it has indeed been printed before. We are improving this process every single day, and we're trying hard to stay agile in refining our processes.

4. Customer service
The last place where we check models is in the customer service team. This is where we get to email you directly, so help us help you by emailing us back if you have questions about your rejection. We want to have these conversations with you!

Shopper rejections
We understand these are the most painful rejections because it is a bad experience for your customer and may damage your reputation as a designer/seller. There are a lot of great shops on Shapeways, and the best designers have adopted the procedure of test-printing their products before they offer them up for sale. This accomplishes a few important things:

1. It lets you make sure the model/design comes out exactly as you imagined it would.
2. It lets us have a record that it has, indeed, been printed successfully (at least) once.
3. It allows you to take a picture of the model/design. This greatly improves your product presentation and you are therefore more likely to make sales!

One last point to mention is our design guidelines. When you design crazy awesome models, we get to test if our machines can print them, and we all learn something. We want to work together to make sure your models are printed at the highest quality, and by the same token we always try to push our own limits through what you make. We then take these lessons and create design guidelines to help other people design things too.

We are excited to be able to announce that our community team recently grew in size, and one of our upcoming projects is to rewrite the design guidelines to be easier to understand and with less ambiguity. So stay tuned for that!

As many of you have pointed out, we are all in this together! We are learning to work with a new technology and we want to keep enabling you to print amazing things. Rejections are a way to learn, to improve, and to create the future together. Let's keep the conversation open and explore where we can go together.

Natalia, on behalf of Shapeways

[Updated on: Fri, 28 June 2013 21:10 UTC]


Shapeways Community Manager
Re: Preventing Rejections [message #70688 is a reply to message #70677 ] Fri, 28 June 2013 21:13 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar Mechanoid  is currently offline Mechanoid
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So because I'm going to qoute the two parties in this, I decided I would post everything they said. So incase someone tries to ban me from ShapeWays for airing the dirty laundry. But I'm tired of being caught in the middle of what one person says, another doesn't agree with, and I get the short end of it.

Here we go again. I just had a model that I had someone buy one in WSF and one in FUD. They both just printed and shipped TODAY.

Yet the Service Team, aka Mr Denissen, just sent me this concerning the model and it's possible updated file.

"I have checked the file for you and checked it for the materials: FUD, FD and WSF.

First the model does contains shells (173). Also the model has detail level that is not sufficient and under the design rules. Also at the bottom you have some thin walls.
Attached are the screenshots of the model.

If you can increase the detail level to 0.2 mm and thicken the walls to at least 0.3 mm for FD and 0.7 mm for WSF then we are able to print the model in your desired materials."

Which was QUICKLY fallowed up by a reply from Mr. Jetten, who had this too say.

"I'm really sorry to intervene in this email conversation.
After reading your posts on the forum I spotted something that caught my attention:

"When a model gets rejected for multiple shells, it's like WTF. I have one real great selling models in my shop. Discovery One. It's got 47 shells. AND IT'S NEVER FAILED!! So what is this multiply shells issue about? The Service Team either can't say, or won't. I'm tired of yelling at them folks. They are only doing what ShapeWays has told them too do and say."

Although I'm currently having my last day off (had a week vacation) I still would like to inform you that the email below this one from Joost is incorrect and do apologize for this.
The model you have emailed to Joost is actually a file before uploading and thus contains a lot of parts which are intersecting, the assumption that the model is not printable because of the 173 shells is not right.

As soon as you upload your model on the website or software will automatically repair all intersecting parts and will unify your model into single objects.
At the moment you are not able to see how many shells your model contains after uploading, but I will make sure that you will be able to see this in the near future on the my edit page of your model.

The model "Aries 1B 14mm V2.stl" has only got 1 shell after our software did its magic trick unifying all intersecting parts.
I have attached a small picture to show this in our internal system.

I do know this doesn't answer all your questions right now, but I just wanted to let you know the 174 shells isn't an issue and will be fixed during uploading.

However there is one catch, if there are parts that are not intersecting, our software will not fix this, even if it's just 0.001mm difference."

Now as you all can clearly see, Mr. Jetten & Mr. Denissen do NOT agree about what is reject and what ain't. And the funny part in all this. The model just shipped. Which means my update, which removed the inner shell that made it hallow, and the outside tiny skirt shell around the bottom, otherwise there was not one thing different in how the two files were seen. Yet 2 different people in the same office, One while on vacation, seen the same model in two completely different manners. Now from what I can tell. Mr. Jetten is over Mr. Denissen. Which means I should really take Mr. Jetten's word over Mr. Denissen's.

And maybe that too is one of the problems at ShapeWays, no two people see the samething in the same file. Maybe someone needs to go back to school or something. Because this ain't working like this. Confusing cross communications is only making things worse. If someone is wrong, maybe they need to be FORCED to send a second email admitting their fault, and inform you what the truth really is. I can't do 2 different models for 2 different people, that are the exact same damm models. I don't know how to do that. Stop confusing me, dammit.

Go back to less restrictive guidelines, until EVERYONE at ShapeWays is on the same damm page about the guidelines.

Samantha


I.D.I.C. = Infinite Diversity in Infinite Combinations
Re: Preventing Rejections [message #70692 is a reply to message #70686 ] Fri, 28 June 2013 21:42 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar uncommented  is currently offline uncommented
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Natalia, your point is very well made. However, the assumption you made under the section about shopper rejections concerns me:

Quote:


Shopper rejections
We understand these are the most painful rejections because it is a bad experience for your customer and may damage your reputation as a designer/seller. There are a lot of great shops on Shapeways, and the best designers have adopted the procedure of test-printing their products before they offer them up for sale. This accomplishes a few important things...


I'm pretty sure everyone in this thread orders test prints. The reason that many of us are frustrated is that Shapeways has been rejecting models after successful test prints have been made. Perhaps some of this mess can be avoided by providing transparency regarding the yield rate for designers.

Specifically, if Shapeways consistently looks at production history, and goes by a 50% success minimum or any other magic number, than designers absolutely need to know the success rates for their models in order to be able to make corrections before serious problems emerge. I'd say a simple "this model has printed successfully x% of the time" message on the model edit screen would be sufficient. If you have the data available as you say, than it is essential that hidden variables such as this become un-hidden to designers. Otherwise we will simply chose competing services.

Best,

Robert
Re: Preventing Rejections [message #70696 is a reply to message #70675 ] Fri, 28 June 2013 21:49 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar MitchellJetten  is currently offline MitchellJetten
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Hey Hunter,

Haven't read any further then "Mitchell I missed you"
Just wanted to say, I have a week vacation, yes it's my first full week of vacation since 2011 Laughing

Alright, back to reading the rest of ur post Smile


Edit: thanks for your kind words Smile
I will always do my best to make people leave customer service with a smile.

Feel free to reach out to me at service@shapeways.com including "Mitchell" in the subject, it will redirect your mail to me Cool


back to my friday night drink


Another Edit:
@stannum, yes this, unfortunately, sometimes happens and I do apologies for this.
Feel free to send me an email about these orders and I'll will investigate why this particular model was printed before and did got rejected after a few times.

I feel your pain, as this probably lost you a sale to a customer Sad

[Updated on: Fri, 28 June 2013 22:03 UTC]


Kind regards,

Mitchell Jetten
Customer Service Coordinator
Shapeways
Re: Preventing Rejections [message #70698 is a reply to message #70696 ] Fri, 28 June 2013 22:03 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar Mechanoid  is currently offline Mechanoid
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Mr. Jetten,

I wanted to out in the open, Thank You.

I am just so confused right now, I really don't know what to believe. The Aries 1B 14mm model of mine, the update file I made incase the original one rejected out. Funny thing, Sir. The original PRINTED & SHIPPED TODAY.

So I have a question for you, maybe you can answer.

What happens when Service Team says a model should be rejected (under the new TIGHTER guidelines), but still gets printed and shipped in 2 completely different materials, just DAYS after they were ordered?

Am I looking at a model that will now get rejected because it's been printed twice?

I'm asking, because that is how it seems to go. Upload new model, run first print, then it spends the rest of it's life being rejected.

Why can't you just mark a model that has printed, and printable and stop running it thru checks? Because what one person see's today, another might not ever see. Or even the original person might not see today, might be seen next week, then they might never see it again. BUT once you folks mark a model as having been rejected once. It seems to stay that way forever.

Sorry to have ruined your vacation before it ended.

Best regards,

Samantha


I.D.I.C. = Infinite Diversity in Infinite Combinations
Re: Preventing Rejections [message #70700 is a reply to message #62565 ] Fri, 28 June 2013 22:18 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar matt_atknsn  is currently offline matt_atknsn
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Thanks Natalia for the infos Smile

Hmmm... "printed before flag" ... not much this could do for me nowadays as I've updated some rejected previously-successfully-printed-models already to the now-missing FUD nuanced design rules (2x edited from original successfully-printed version, 3x rejected, 1 unhappy customer... didn't bother counting emails between me and CS Razz )

EDIT: Any chance for and updated FUD nuance rules since it's still under FD? (Or have it's own separate list from FD's 0.6/0.8/1.0, bar sprues)

[Updated on: Fri, 28 June 2013 22:22 UTC]

Re: Preventing Rejections [message #70701 is a reply to message #70700 ] Fri, 28 June 2013 22:35 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar MitchellJetten  is currently offline MitchellJetten
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Hey Mechanoid,

Let me get back to you tomorrow on this subject, I need some sleep (0:34am right now).
I hope to be able to answer your question after some good night of sleep!

Mitchell

ps. I emailed you the same, I'll answer your questions tomorrow Smile


Kind regards,

Mitchell Jetten
Customer Service Coordinator
Shapeways
Re: Preventing Rejections [message #70703 is a reply to message #70686 ] Fri, 28 June 2013 23:22 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar dcyale  is currently offline dcyale
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Hi Natalia. This is Dave from the Westport Makerfaire.

Although this thread is going off the rails to an extent, hopefully it is making some people think about the process and how it can get better.

As for test prints- in my opinion they have become useless. I wonder if there used to be an attitude of printing a model if possible no mater what, and as the business changed that had to change, also.

As an example, I learned early on not to offer a model for sale until it had test printed. My first model was a very simple, and somewhat crude, set of 10 chairs sprued together (1/87 scale). It test printed, I had the printed model in my hands, and I used the chair STL file in several other models that included tables or restaurant booths.

Then I sold one- my first sale- YIPEE! I can do this.

Then it rejected 3 times. As I recall the sprue attaching the individual chairs wasn't big enough.

Then it shipped as part of a model that included tables. I have since redisgned the chair- and did a much better job now that I'm starting to understand things better. An order with the redesigned chair shipped today.

I had the same result with other models, but that's the clearest one.

Perhaps Shapeways had to print it 3 or 4 times to get a good print. I don't know because we don't see that data, but if true then I totally understand that I need to fix it and the problem is on my end. But when I hold a model in my hand I have to be able to rely on that model printing again, or have a way to know it has a problem. As it is I have way more rejections than prints on models that I test printed.

That is the source of my frustration.

I continue to fix any issue that comes to me through a rejection email. But now I am spruing together 4 to 6 models and ordering them for myself and try to sell them on ebay. The Shapeways sales model is not working for me. I realize that my models, because they are miniatures, push hard against the design guidelines, and occasionally stray over.

But I'm still having fun- and I still enjoy the process.
Re: Preventing Rejections [message #70712 is a reply to message #70703 ] Sat, 29 June 2013 10:57 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar MitchellJetten  is currently offline MitchellJetten
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Mechanoid wrote on Fri, 28 June 2013 22:03

Mr. Jetten,

What happens when Service Team says a model should be rejected (under the new TIGHTER guidelines), but still gets printed and shipped in 2 completely different materials, just DAYS after they were ordered?

Am I looking at a model that will now get rejected because it's been printed twice?




Well in that case the service team was wrong Smile and I apologize for that!
I will have to investigate this some more and check with the person to see why he or she thinks the model isn't printable.

Right now your model has a printed before flag, and as long as you do not update the model (other version number in our system) the model should not get rejected.
Like Natalia wrote, we do the last review of a rejection and if your model does get rejected it will clearly state in our system that this model has been printed before and we will do everything we can to talk to the production teams to still have this model printed or get a clear description on why they aren't able to print the model this time.

So this new printed before system, which is still being developed and improved on the fly will help both you and Shapeways from disappointing anyone!

Mitchell


Kind regards,

Mitchell Jetten
Customer Service Coordinator
Shapeways
Re: Preventing Rejections [message #70713 is a reply to message #70712 ] Sat, 29 June 2013 12:24 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar Mechanoid  is currently offline Mechanoid
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Mr. Jetten,

All information was sent via email to you. Thank you for responding, Sir.

Best regards,

Samantha


I.D.I.C. = Infinite Diversity in Infinite Combinations
Re: Preventing Rejections [message #70722 is a reply to message #70686 ] Sun, 30 June 2013 02:02 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar Roy_Stevens  is currently offline Roy_Stevens
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Hurray! I started this thread ages ago and it has been completely ignored by anyone working at Shapeways for a very long time. I have heard that the 'has been printed' flag will be implemented. May I point out that such a flag will be utterly useless. I already have an 'already printed' flag on my models. It's called PHOTOGRAPHS. But that hasn't stopped my models from being summarily rejected again and again and again and again and again. What I need is a GUARANTEE that my model will be printed a second, third, fiftieth, and ten thousandth time. Otherwise I might as well be (colorful metaphor about pointless activities).


Earl Grey, hot.
Re: Preventing Rejections [message #70724 is a reply to message #70722 ] Sun, 30 June 2013 03:56 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar Mechanoid  is currently offline Mechanoid
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Roy Stevens,

The one bad part in all of it, is sadly "THE HUMAN FACTOR". No 2 people will see the same 3D model the same, What one person see's today, might never be seen again. Then again one person checks your model today and see's nothing wrong. Next week, they may have had a bad day, maybe they got their backside caught in that meat grinder called their BOSS, and decided they are going to reject everything.

The truely sad part is, it appears from my end, once a model has been rejected, you almost have too delete the thing, and upload the update file as a brand new model, or it too will get rejected. I've had 3 models so far they have done that too.

Mr. Jetten appears to be someone with some influence at ShapeWays. I'm going to give him the benefit of the doubt, and see what he can do to fix this ignorance that's been going on. I have a couple of real beautiful models coming in the next few months. I'm hoping this mess is cleared up before then. I want these models up long before the fall season hits. And I don't want to deal with made up rejection claims. I'm going to need these things to function. Not be ordered once or twice then get REJECTED!

I intend to try to keep this issue firmly in ShapeWays face, until either they fix it, or throw me off the site.

That statement should just about get me banned. LOL


I.D.I.C. = Infinite Diversity in Infinite Combinations
Re: Preventing Rejections [message #70728 is a reply to message #70722 ] Sun, 30 June 2013 11:02 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar mkroeker  is currently offline mkroeker
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Obvious difference is that with photographs, someone woud have to look at your model page to see if there are any
to document that it has been printed, which is obviously impractical. Also,as has been pointed out several times in several
threads on this topic, the fact that you hold one printed model in your hand does not tell you how many sttempts were
neccessary to produce it, and most importantly how many cute little kittens had to be sacrificed...
Hopefully this new flag in the database will finally settle most of these issues.
@Mechanoid - the "human factor" is not limited to someone having a bad day and rejecting models out of spite - consider
that experience levels differ, new hires may simply make mistakes, or notice a small flaw in a model without knowing that it
is harmless.
Finally, the growth phase after initial success is probably the most dangerous period in the life of a startup - you cannot simply
clone your granny and have fifty identical grannies bake her cherished cookies in copies of the same old stove when the
whole town wants to buy. It is obvious from this thread that several designers have suffered much, but there are still great new
designs appearing in the "It arrived" forum, so overall Shapeways seems to be doing fairly well despite the changes.
(Before you ask, I am not a shill, though possibly a stooge - and glad to be serviced by the well-established Eindhoven facility Razz )
Re: Preventing Rejections [message #70731 is a reply to message #62565 ] Sun, 30 June 2013 16:32 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar MrNib  is currently offline MrNib
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It almost sounds like two issues are combining here. The first is inconsistency of prints relating to the printers. These might range from "normal" variations to anything like poor powder batches to uncalibrated printer settings that result in trays or items being rejected. The other is the design rules. But one of the reasons for design rules is to also provide an allotment (or some wiggle room) such that printer variations do not seriously impact yields. 50% is an awful yield. What it leads me to think is that the design rules need to be stricter! Perhaps some or all of the rule minimums might need to be bumped up bt a factor to increase the yields.

Re: Preventing Rejections [message #70732 is a reply to message #70731 ] Sun, 30 June 2013 16:47 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar NickHawkins  is currently offline NickHawkins
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MrNib wrote on Sun, 30 June 2013 16:32

<snip> What it leads me to think is that the design rules need to be stricter! Perhaps some or all of the rule minimums might need to be bumped up bt a factor to increase the yields.

I would not be in favour of this, I'd need to rework all my designs - not worth it, I'd look elsewhere to get my models printed Sad
Re: Preventing Rejections [message #70733 is a reply to message #70731 ] Sun, 30 June 2013 16:58 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar mkroeker  is currently offline mkroeker
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Quote:

50% is an awful yield. What it leads me to think is

Um, wait, where did this 50% figure come from ??
Re: Preventing Rejections [message #70734 is a reply to message #70731 ] Sun, 30 June 2013 17:03 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar Roy_Stevens  is currently offline Roy_Stevens
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Quote:

50% is an awful yield. What it leads me to think is that the design rules need to be stricter! Perhaps some or all of the rule minimums might need to be bumped up bt a factor to increase the yields.


Wait. Where did you get this 50% yield figure from?? Will you please cite your source for this? Also, will someone please tell me how to correctly cite someones previous message using this board?


Earl Grey, hot.
Re: Preventing Rejections [message #70735 is a reply to message #70732 ] Sun, 30 June 2013 17:04 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar MrNib  is currently offline MrNib
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NickHawkins wrote on Sun, 30 June 2013 16:47

MrNib wrote on Sun, 30 June 2013 16:32

<snip> What it leads me to think is that the design rules need to be stricter! Perhaps some or all of the rule minimums might need to be bumped up bt a factor to increase the yields.

I would not be in favour of this, I'd need to rework all my designs - not worth it, I'd look elsewhere to get my models printed Sad



That's not my preferred solution either. Another solution would be to get better control of the printers if that's possible. But if the design rules were too loose in the first place the obvious solution is to tighten up design rules for future long term benefit. I would likely also lose the ability to print models but if more stringent design rule changes help Shapeways to get to 80, 90, or 99.999 percent yields it would be well worth it in terms of reduced prices and fewer hassles for designers, customers, and Shapeways.
Re: Preventing Rejections [message #70736 is a reply to message #70734 ] Sun, 30 June 2013 17:11 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar MrNib  is currently offline MrNib
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Roy_Stevens wrote on Sun, 30 June 2013 17:03

Quote:

50% is an awful yield. What it leads me to think is that the design rules need to be stricter! Perhaps some or all of the rule minimums might need to be bumped up bt a factor to increase the yields.


Wait. Where did you get this 50% yield figure from?? Will you please cite your source for this? Also, will someone please tell me how to correctly cite someones previous message using this board?



It's from up above in Natalia's post.

Quote:

2. Production
This is all about checking the model and flagging it for rejection. Going back to the "printed before" flag, I'm happy to say we now have the first step of this type of feature in our system. Specifically, we can now see how many successful prints there have been of a particular model version. Basically, if the rate is higher than 50% successful we will print it, and not reject it. And most importantly, this flagging only works for a specific model version.


It's not a batch or tray yield, it's a specific imodel yield. But this hypothetically also means that models which may be yielding let's say 100% are effectively subsidizing the production of lower yielding parts.
Re: Preventing Rejections [message #70737 is a reply to message #70728 ] Sun, 30 June 2013 17:24 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar Mechanoid  is currently offline Mechanoid
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@mkroeker, Believe me when I say, I am very aware of that fact. When I put that up, I simple gave a quick couple of examples of the "Human Factor".

Now let me take a moment to enlighten you. Because it appears that you completely misunderstand me, my intentions, my motives, or the entire ordeal that I have been dealing with. I joined the ShapeWays community a few yrs ago. And have been impressed at nearly every turn. The meer idea that you could take and design something on a computer, and then upload it to a website 8k miles away. And in a couple of weeks end up holding something that has never been made before in your hands. Absolutely amazing.

And that is the very reason I'm pissed. Because it was like someone flipping a switch on a lamp back in December 2012. Because that is when the model rejection of working models began. That also it appears is when ShapeWays moved everything back in-house and decided to tighten their guidelines, change their format and procedures for printing models. Only thing is. ShapeWays DIDN'T TELL ANYONE! ShapeWays stopped communicating with the very people that they depend on as a company. ShapeWays and 3D designers are a partnership. But in this case one side forgot about the other. And the fact is, the response has caught ShapeWays off guard.

Making the guidelines even tighter wouldn't solve their problems. It would push many designers out to other services. The world of 3D printing is here to stay, It ain't going away. Companies are making and improving their home 3D printing units. There are going to be cases where companies and designers clash. It can't be helped. But what can be done, is what this thread is trying to do. It's keeping the issues firmly in ShapeWays face. Yes ShapeWays is a fantastic company. But you can't go around making changes all the time, and not tell anyone until AFTER THE FACT. It's about COMMUNICATION. And right now ShapeWays needs to be told they messed up. They need to be reminded that without the 3D modelers, designers and shop owners. There would be no customers coming to ShapeWays to buy anything. Companies all over the world have forgotten that fact. And many don't survive the mistake. This thread is an attempt by some, to kick ShapeWays in the backside, in hopes they will wakeup before they too don't survive their growing pains. I want to see ShapeWays around for many yrs.

That is why I'm fuming mad about the rejection rates and tighter guidelines that have caused, not just for me, but for many others, to have many models rejected that used to work just fine. Some have started business around the ability to 3D print. Now those business are taking hits, because models that used to work without error, no longer do. It's costing people money, and more importantly customers.

All because ShapeWays forgot to COMMUNICATE.


I.D.I.C. = Infinite Diversity in Infinite Combinations
Re: Preventing Rejections [message #70738 is a reply to message #70735 ] Sun, 30 June 2013 17:48 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar NickHawkins  is currently offline NickHawkins
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MrNib wrote on Sun, 30 June 2013 17:04

NickHawkins wrote on Sun, 30 June 2013 16:47

MrNib wrote on Sun, 30 June 2013 16:32

<snip> What it leads me to think is that the design rules need to be stricter! Perhaps some or all of the rule minimums might need to be bumped up bt a factor to increase the yields.

I would not be in favour of this, I'd need to rework all my designs - not worth it, I'd look elsewhere to get my models printed Sad



That's not my preferred solution either. Another solution would be to get better control of the printers if that's possible. But if the design rules were too loose in the first place the obvious solution is to tighten up design rules for future long term benefit. I would likely also lose the ability to print models but if more stringent design rule changes help Shapeways to get to 80, 90, or 99.999 percent yields it would be well worth it in terms of reduced prices and fewer hassles for designers, customers, and Shapeways.

In one of my very early models I accidentally included a large area of wall that was too thin (in WSF), so far as I know it printed fine and because of its curved shape was strong enough once printed (I still have it). I'd suggest that the original WSF guidelines were quite conservative for walls and details (wires in WSF are a different matter).
I've since revised the model to meet the materials guidelines.

The printing technology is getting better, not worse. As a designer I see no justification for increasing materials minimums, I'd expect them to get smaller as 3D printing services mature.
Re: Preventing Rejections [message #70740 is a reply to message #70738 ] Sun, 30 June 2013 20:30 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar Mechanoid  is currently offline Mechanoid
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[quote title=NickHawkins wrote on Sun, 30 June 2013 17:48][quote title=MrNib wrote on Sun, 30 June 2013 17:04][quote title=NickHawkins wrote on Sun, 30 June 2013 16:47]
MrNib wrote on Sun, 30 June 2013 16:32

<snip> The printing technology is getting better, not worse. As a designer I see no justification for increasing materials minimums, I'd expect them to get smaller as 3D printing services mature.




And that is another problem in and of itself. Instead of the minimums getting smaller for materials. They are forcing everyone to go back and thicken every model up, or at the very least change it's scale to increase the wall thickness. But for somethings, increasing a models scale may, just may take it outside of the scale required for a model to be for a customer. So there again, more lost sales. Because ShapeWays just did all this, and only after the fact did they bother too tell anyone what they did or why. No warning, no concern for the shops, designers nor even the customers.

I have had customers that were so mad at me, thinking I had duuped them. They refuse to deal with me again. Thinking all of the models in the shop can't be printed, they are just there to look pretty. As one customer told me. All because someone at ShapeWays had a wild hair up their ...... and decided to change how models are checked, and decided to nit pick every model as if it was brand new and had never sold before. Just looking for any reason to reject it. They should have had the "Printed Before Flag" aspect fully functioning and in place long before they drew everything back in house and tightened the guidelines up to near choke point. Poor planning, poor execution of intent. And complete break down of communications.

Or as the guy in the movie Cool Hand Luke would say about now;.....

"What we have here IS......... a FAILURE to communicate"


I.D.I.C. = Infinite Diversity in Infinite Combinations
Re: Preventing Rejections [message #70753 is a reply to message #62565 ] Mon, 01 July 2013 09:16 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar matt_atknsn  is currently offline matt_atknsn
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Already-printed or not, IMO it will hinder future (new) models due to current design rules... or lack of (strictly speaking from FUD-modeller's PoV)
Re: Preventing Rejections [message #70773 is a reply to message #62565 ] Mon, 01 July 2013 15:22 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar PeregrineStudios  is currently offline PeregrineStudios
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Soo... has Shapeways actively decided to be dicks about rules now? Just had a WSF proof get rejected. It printed successfully before, but was too small for the rhinestones I'd picked out, so I made it bigger, and NOW it gets rejected for thin walls? When you scale something up, it doesn't get thinner, it gets thicker. If it was a success before, it can only be a better success now.
Re: Preventing Rejections [message #70839 is a reply to message #62565 ] Tue, 02 July 2013 19:52 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar natalia  is currently offline natalia
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Hi guys,

It seems there is still a lot to talk about on this topic, so we'll be holding two google hangouts TOMORROW, Wednesday July 3rd for you to talk directly to us and get your questions answered!

Details:

Google Hangout in Eindhoven with Bart (Community Manager Europe) and Mitchell (Customer Service) and Luuk (Supply Chain)
Wednesday July 3rd
3PM Eindhoven time (1PM UTC)

Google Hangout in New York with Natalia (Community Manager USA), Christopher and/or Christian (Product Managers)
Wednesday July 3rd
2PM Eastern Standard Time, USA (6pm UTC)

We will post the link to join the hangout in this thread about 15 minutes before it starts, and each will run about 30 minutes.

if you miss it, you can always join our regular Shapeways Live which happens once a month too.

Looking forward to chatting!
Natalia

[Updated on: Tue, 02 July 2013 21:55 UTC]


Shapeways Community Manager
Re: Preventing Rejections [message #70843 is a reply to message #70839 ] Tue, 02 July 2013 20:26 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar dcyale  is currently offline dcyale
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Yesterday and today I recieved succesful prints for several models that had been redesigned when rejected after customer orders. I have changed them all to address specific rejections, and I am still happy with the results.

I will be updating the descriptions and let people know what happens if they get ordered.

Some of the prints will be offered on ebay- I'll have to see how that goes.

Dave
Re: Preventing Rejections [message #70850 is a reply to message #62565 ] Tue, 02 July 2013 23:01 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar MrNib  is currently offline MrNib
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I temporarily set my who-knows-if-they-will-print-now designs to not for sale or unviewable. I checked back on old designs that still had the original design files to see what I did in the past. Unfortunately I often blew the old ones away. But the revised versions did alter things like minimum wall thicknesses at the expense of having less thickness in decorative details, i.e the decorative surface vs embossing/engraving debate. It turns out that for pen bodies I can generally meet one rule but not always the other. So I had taken the approach of revising all my designs to meet the most recent minimum wall thickness in alumide as a worst case situation thinking that this was more critical than the decorative detail thicknesses. But alas, it's the decorative surface details that now earn the rejections.

Some of the old designs have 0.3 to 0.38 mm decorative embossing or engraving in alumide and the parts look just fine to me even with polishing, and generally even better with polishing! How many tries it took Shapeways to print them I do not know. As far as I'm concerned I don't necessarily want crisp and highly defined sharp edges and patterns on a pen body particularly if it makes is uncomfortable to hold the pen. What Shapeways thinks is an acceptable print may not be what MrNib thinks is an acceptable print for this specific use. Since the rejections seem to be pattern dependent I have several options for the questionable blank designs in the future:


1) Resubmit all my "risky" designs for fabrication before a customer does and see what gets rejected and what does not. Hope that in the future parts will continue to be fabricated if they are this month. Obviously this is an unwanted expense (if they get printed) unless they can be submitted as check-only-do-not-actually-build parts. Perhaps there could be a small fee to have Shapeways provide a certified design file blessing without actually making parts. You could add a little golden Shapeways certified model ribbon on a model page in this case.

2) Wait for an online Shapeways design rule check that provides a definitive pass/rejection notice at the time of upload or ordering in any specific material. Are there any plans for this? Is it even possible? How much of the design rule checking is black magic and how much of it is quantitative?

3) Do not offer the pen blank parts in alumide. Good idea until you consider the tremendous advantages of alumide for pen bodies in terms of ease of assembly by using super glue to join the pen blanks to the internal pen mechanisms and seal the alumide for handling in one easy step.

4) Write off the novice pen maker and only offer the matching pen blank designs that require lathe work to trim down the outside diameters of the blanks for a specific pen kit. Ironically this just gets you back to the blanks that are being rejected although admittedly with more precise final mechanical fits but without the benefits of polishing which enhances the feel of the pen bodies. In this case pen makers could figure out how to polish their blanks on their own or find a service to do so for them after they machine them.

5) Thicken up the decorative details on the pen bodies to always meet engraving/embossing rules. Possible negative aspects of this are things like overly bulky pen bodies, pens that are uncomfortable to hold and use, and the inability to have straight-sided pen profiles. You still may not know if it meets all the rules until a sale is made but it would be the preferred fix from the Shapeways point of view..

6) Push for a revision or clarification of what constitutes engraving/embossing. Distinguish engraving/embossing of legible text or logos from decorative surface patterns/textures from noisy rough surfaces inherent most designs, since all three are different surfaces. Create new design rule thresholds to cover these various types of surface definitions. Possibly enable different surface area types to be coded into the model file through the use of color, subsections, or other file format techniques. For example green could be engraving/embossing, blue could be surface decoration, and nothing would be any low level noise arising from the editor due to aliasing or polygon resolution effects. In this case a designer waiver could also be coded into a model (red?) as long as more critical underlying rules such as wall thickness are met in that area. Color coding is not necessarily preferred but you get the idea.


Granted most of this is surface detail embossing/engraving related because that's my main problem, but I think some of what I babbled about may also be applicable to other issues that are causing people heartburn. I plan on posting some pen images to help explain what I'm talking about in my engraving/embossing thread over in the 3D design section but I doubt it will happen this week. It's vacation time. Have a good Google hangout without me!

[Updated on: Tue, 02 July 2013 23:33 UTC]

Re: Preventing Rejections [message #70856 is a reply to message #70850 ] Wed, 03 July 2013 01:47 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar Mechanoid  is currently offline Mechanoid
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I wanted to add something before the on-line world conference tomarrow.

On July 1st, I got an email from Mr. Jetten, And he was trying to help me with a model that the Service Team kept rejecting at every turn. It was an issues about when a detail is seen as a wall, when it clearly is not. I've tried for months to get a CLEAR & CORRECT statement concerning this.

But to be honest, I would have had a better conversation with a brick wall, by beating my head on it for the last 4 months.

Now I will post what Mr. Jetten said to me. It may help everyone, As it helped me and Mr. Jetten.

This was a conversation about my 9-Cylon Fighters model.

"I did notice that the gun sticks out 0.8mm and is 0.5mm thick, thus in White Strong & Flexible this is considered a wire and not a detail.

Though this does already tell me one thing, there is no clear information on our website when a detail becomes a wall and when a wall becomes a wire.
This confuses both you, the production team and me!"

Maybe that is one thing that ShapeWays needs to fix for all of it's materials. So that designers and the Service Team are all speaking the same language. Specially when it comes to reasons for rejecting a model. Also might MrNib's idea about having a service, where we can pay a small fee, and that service will run a complete 100% check of any model, and be able to get back to the designer with a complete list of faults, what actual material standards the model meets, and how likely a future rejection is for this model as is. And be able to post this, (look below at the image), to the model page, telling customers this model does work. So they can shop with confidence that would they are paying for, will actually arrive.

index.php?t=getfile&id=35797&private=0

This simple process would reduce the print facility from having to produce a model several times before getting it right. Which would then cause them to reject the model in the future. It would reduce the complaint emails at the Service Team, it would reduce the total number of rejected models over time, it would help designers to work more closely with ShapeWays like a true business partnership. Allowing for better flow of communications between ALL parties, including the customers.

Which it turn would improve the over all ShapeWays 3D Printing experience for everyone. Make it a true "WIN, WIN" for the world.

Natalie and Mr. Jetten, Please read this before the google world conference tomarrow.

  • Attachment: printok.png
    (Size: 21.28KB, Downloaded 311 time(s))


I.D.I.C. = Infinite Diversity in Infinite Combinations
Re: Preventing Rejections [message #70859 is a reply to message #70856 ] Wed, 03 July 2013 02:48 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar Roy_Stevens  is currently offline Roy_Stevens
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I would pay a fee - even a large fee - for someone at Shapeways to check my file, run it through the printing process, and certify it as printable for time and all eternity in a certain material. Then I could safely advertise the availability of such item(s) in magazines, web site banners, trade show displays, and other things that cost money but can potentially have great return on investment. This whole idea of 'has been printed, but maybe won't be next time' just won't cut it for someone trying to run a business.


Earl Grey, hot.
Re: Preventing Rejections [message #70862 is a reply to message #62565 ] Wed, 03 July 2013 04:32 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar MrNib  is currently offline MrNib
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Mechanoid wrote on Wed, 03 July 2013 01:47



Though this does already tell me one thing, there is no clear information on our website when a detail becomes a wall and when a wall becomes a wire.
This confuses both you, the production team and me!"

Maybe that is one thing that ShapeWays needs to fix for all of it's materials. So that designers and the Service Team are all speaking the same language. Specially when it comes to reasons for rejecting a model. .



All good physical layout design rule manuals begin with a good set of definitions that are characterized by spacings, cross sections, aspect ratios, lengths, widths, heights, deviations, curvatures, shapes, angles, overlaps, overhangs, enclosures, volumes, volume ratios, orientations, etc. Ideally most rules would be quantitative and implementable in computer code to remove the human factor from making pass/fail decisions, but practically speaking for something as flexible as 3D printing some decisions will inevitably need to be subjective. At least for the time being.
Re: Preventing Rejections [message #70885 is a reply to message #70862 ] Wed, 03 July 2013 12:51 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar bartv  is currently offline bartv
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Hey folks,

for the EU hangout, please use this link:

https://plus.google.com/hangouts/_/84936e35500fa16f75f6842fe 1c527e3088f78fb?authuser=0&hl=en

See you in a bit!

Bart


Community Manager Europe | Shapeways
Re: Preventing Rejections [message #70893 is a reply to message #62565 ] Wed, 03 July 2013 13:56 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar hunterseeker5  is currently offline hunterseeker5
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God damn it I am on *** vacation and after all this public discussion about consistency, clarity, openness, repeatibility, etc what do I get this morning? ANOTHER MODEL REJECTION!!!! Seriously shapeways, if you want me to go elsewhere you can just say so you don't need to keep playing this stupid game.


What was the rejection for this time? Apparently they decided my model looked like a weapon.. Since it happens to be a mechanical part for a toy, as the pictures of it posted CLEARLY showed, I find my patience with this strained. It also appears that now someone, as I type actually, appears to be sifting through my models deleting all "similar" items not just the one which was rejected. I in fact watched the links dissappear from the search as I tried to provide one to show, clearly, its not a weapon. I don't think its any secret that I play with airsoft toys, its plastered all over my store, website, etc, so if technical components for something ruled by the US federal government to be a toy is now considered a weapon by Shapeways, after printing them for over a year I might add, it looks like this is just the cowardly way to say get lost. I will begin the process of finding a better alternative and transferring my business to another website on my return. Its just hilarious to me that, not only am I in the top 100 sellers here, but I introduced Shapeways as a bespoke small-parts source to the airsoft comminity and after starting a revolution there with this website I'll now be walking away from it. *shrug* I guess Shapeways has just gown and gotten "too good" for "my kind."


EDIT
Oh hey look at that, I just noticed Shapeways took down a bunch of my models with no communication at all, no warning, no questions, nothing. Just ripped them off the site and to hell with my descriptions, links, images, etc. Well that was kind of them. I guess I'm done here.

[Updated on: Wed, 03 July 2013 17:22 UTC] by Moderator

Re: Preventing Rejections [message #70901 is a reply to message #70893 ] Wed, 03 July 2013 17:38 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar natalia  is currently offline natalia
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James, I would appreciate it if you please try to refrain from using colorful language in your forum posts.

I have confirmed with our CS team that they did indeed send you an email about your models on Monday, and you have an email in your inbox from me explaining the rejection reason in full.

I am more than happy to continue this discussion over email, it is however a personal matter so in order to be sensitive to your privacy, I would like to keep it out of this thread.

I look forward to chatting with you further

Thank you,
Natalia


Shapeways Community Manager
Re: Preventing Rejections [message #70906 is a reply to message #62565 ] Wed, 03 July 2013 18:02 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar natalia  is currently offline natalia
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Hi guys,

The USA Hangout is starting now, click this link to join with any google account:

https://plus.google.com/hangouts/_/ae635ba33806bd75082cbb4b6 787b81d6e08b569

I'll be here for the next 30-40 minutes to answer any questions!

Lets hang!
Natalia


Shapeways Community Manager
Re: Preventing Rejections [message #70907 is a reply to message #70906 ] Wed, 03 July 2013 18:05 UTC Go to previous messageGo to previous message
avatar dcyale  is currently offline dcyale
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All I get with that link is a message saying "This party is over."

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