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Building a Biplane in Full Colour [message #66441] Fri, 19 April 2013 15:49 UTC Go to next message
avatar jamioflan  is currently offline jamioflan
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I want to construct a biplane with the coloured sandstone, but I am not sure how to create the support struts. Would building it in one piece be impossible and would having a separate upper wing with slots for a few support struts work?

The biplane itself can have quite blocky struts as it is a model of the biplane from my Minecraft mod, pictured below. I would also be able to add more struts if necessary.
http://minecraftmine.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/01/planes-mod.png
Re: Building a Biplane in Full Colour [message #66457 is a reply to message #66441 ] Fri, 19 April 2013 19:05 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar stonysmith  is currently offline stonysmith
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I think you'd be better off making it two separate wings.

You could design the struts like you've got, but if you go for the minimum wall thickness (2mm) then I'm afraid that they're going to break during post-processing or shipping. You may have to make them significantly thicker to survive post-processing, and that would hurt the look.

I had to thicken up the struts on this model quite a bit: http://shpws.me/lp9l In that render, it looks pretty bad, but in real life, the whole wing is no more 1.5 inches wide and doesn't look too bad.

One small detail: on most biplanes, there were two struts on each side.. one forward, one toward the back.


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Re: Building a Biplane in Full Colour [message #66463 is a reply to message #66457 ] Fri, 19 April 2013 19:48 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar jamioflan  is currently offline jamioflan
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Okay, so if I were to have two separate wings, how would I ensure that they slot together when I get them? If I make the struts the same dimensions as the holes in the wings, will they fit easily and smoothly, or would I need to make the struts a tiny bit thinner? And how should I make the holes in the wings? Indents about half the depth of the wing or holes all the way through?

As to thickening the struts and increasing their number, would swapping each of the struts for a pair and adding two new pairs nearer the centre be sufficient?
Re: Building a Biplane in Full Colour [message #66464 is a reply to message #66441 ] Fri, 19 April 2013 19:54 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar Youknowwho4eva  is currently offline Youknowwho4eva
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You would want to leave a little wiggle room. I'd do half depth so that you can put some glue in there, and unless anyone looks from underneath they would never know it's glued.

What you can do, is email you file to service and ask about the print-ability. The wings, being mostly unsupported, I'd say would have to be 3mm thick. I always design sandstone to 3mm to avoid rejections. Could you make the supports really wide, and add a texture to the inside to look like the cables on older biplanes or something?


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Re: Building a Biplane in Full Colour [message #70409 is a reply to message #66464 ] Mon, 24 June 2013 17:58 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar jamioflan  is currently offline jamioflan
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Okay, so its been a while as I've had other commitments to see to, but I've finally gotten around to finishing the model for the biplane in SketchUp.
I would love it if someone more knowledgeable about printing could give it a quick look to see if it will actually work.

SketchUp file is attached and an image is provided below

http://i.imgur.com/2C0MUWN.png

  • Attachment: Biplane.skp
    (Size: 53.61KB, Downloaded 19 time(s))

Re: Building a Biplane in Full Colour [message #70417 is a reply to message #70409 ] Mon, 24 June 2013 19:56 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar denali3ddesign  is currently offline denali3ddesign
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Very close, but you have a minor error that will cause problems. In the attached image, you can see two lines that are shared by 4 faces. For a "solid model", there can only be 2 faces per line.
index.php?t=getfile&id=35043&private=0

In this image, I moved the face up a little, and this will allow you to have a "Solid" model. This is one way, not necessarily the only way, of fixing the model.
index.php?t=getfile&id=35044&private=0

If you like, read up more on making solid models on this blog post I wrote last year: 8 Tips for 3D Printing with Sketchup.


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Re: Building a Biplane in Full Colour [message #70449 is a reply to message #70417 ] Tue, 25 June 2013 10:07 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar jamioflan  is currently offline jamioflan
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Okay, so I've fixed that problem, textured it and uploaded it to Shapeways.
However, the texture mapping is showing up fine on the preview image, but not on the 3D preview. How do I know if it will actually print correctly?
http://www.shapeways.com/model/1174872/
Re: Building a Biplane in Full Colour [message #70450 is a reply to message #70449 ] Tue, 25 June 2013 10:14 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar denali3ddesign  is currently offline denali3ddesign
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Your model is set to private...If it doesn't show up with color in the preview, it won't print with color. What file format did you upload? How are you applying color?

If using textures, they need to be combined into one texture and the texture zipped with the model. This is a PITA to do in Sketchup, but can be done...ask if you want tips on that.

If using just colors applied to faces, that's much easier as you just need to upload the model in a supported format.


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Re: Building a Biplane in Full Colour [message #70451 is a reply to message #70450 ] Tue, 25 June 2013 10:15 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar jamioflan  is currently offline jamioflan
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It should now be public. The texture is being mapped to both previews, just incorrectly on the 3D one
Re: Building a Biplane in Full Colour [message #70452 is a reply to message #70449 ] Tue, 25 June 2013 10:18 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar mkroeker  is currently offline mkroeker
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The rotating 3d preview is known to be broken - even simple vertex colors often appear on part of the model only. If the static image shows correct texturing it should be alright.
Re: Building a Biplane in Full Colour [message #70453 is a reply to message #70451 ] Tue, 25 June 2013 10:22 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar denali3ddesign  is currently offline denali3ddesign
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Yep, I see it now.

It looks incorrect in the 2D preview too, see inside the cockpit. I would email service before ordering if you have any more doubts.


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Re: Building a Biplane in Full Colour [message #70454 is a reply to message #70453 ] Tue, 25 June 2013 10:29 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar jamioflan  is currently offline jamioflan
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Since the model was too expensive, I scaled it down by a factor of 2 and reuploaded it. The 3D preview is still just as broken, but the bug in the still picture has moved slightly.
http://www.shapeways.com/model/1174912/flan-s-mod-minecraft- biplane.html
I'll definitely send an e-mail before I order anything.
Re: Building a Biplane in Full Colour [message #70455 is a reply to message #70454 ] Tue, 25 June 2013 10:30 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar denali3ddesign  is currently offline denali3ddesign
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If you care to make it downloadable, or upload it here, I can take a look too.


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Re: Building a Biplane in Full Colour [message #70456 is a reply to message #70455 ] Tue, 25 June 2013 10:31 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar jamioflan  is currently offline jamioflan
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It is now downloadable
Re: Building a Biplane in Full Colour [message #70458 is a reply to message #70456 ] Tue, 25 June 2013 10:38 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar denali3ddesign  is currently offline denali3ddesign
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Gah...its not importing correctly to Sketchup so I can't tell what the trouble is from that model.

I'm guessing there's some stray geometry in the model that Shapeways is trying to fix, and that is messing up the textures. Could you upload the SKP here?


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Re: Building a Biplane in Full Colour [message #70459 is a reply to message #70458 ] Tue, 25 June 2013 10:41 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar jamioflan  is currently offline jamioflan
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Here it is

Re: Building a Biplane in Full Colour [message #70460 is a reply to message #70459 ] Tue, 25 June 2013 10:49 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar denali3ddesign  is currently offline denali3ddesign
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IF you go View > Face Style > Monochrome, you can see some faces in the cockpit are darker bluish-gray. These are reversed faces. Right-click > reverse faces on them and reapply the texture if necessary. (you can also right click on a correct white face and "Orient faces" to fix all of them at once)

There is also a stray line in the center of the cockpit, but that shouldn't be too much trouble.

The surprising thing to me is that you have 3 textures - I was under the impression that they had to be combined into one, but it appears that shapeways is applying them all correctly except for inside the cockpit where the faces are reversed.


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Re: Building a Biplane in Full Colour [message #70461 is a reply to message #70460 ] Tue, 25 June 2013 10:57 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar denali3ddesign  is currently offline denali3ddesign
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Side note, you may be able to decrease the cost some by moving the upper wing close to its final position above the cockpit. This will reduce the bounding box a little bit.


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Re: Building a Biplane in Full Colour [message #70462 is a reply to message #70461 ] Tue, 25 June 2013 11:03 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar jamioflan  is currently offline jamioflan
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How does this look?
http://www.shapeways.com/model/1174912/flan-s-mod-minecraft- biplane.html

Re: Building a Biplane in Full Colour [message #70463 is a reply to message #70462 ] Tue, 25 June 2013 11:09 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar denali3ddesign  is currently offline denali3ddesign
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Well the 2D preview looks fine, but the 3D preview is still wonky - it looks like they applied one texture to the entire model as the wings have texture from the prop. I'd email service about that to be sure you're getting what you expect.

I guess moving the wing didn't help the price any.


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Re: Building a Biplane in Full Colour [message #70464 is a reply to message #70463 ] Tue, 25 June 2013 11:17 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar jamioflan  is currently offline jamioflan
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Thank you very much for all your help. I've e-mailed Shapeways asking them whether it will print correctly, and so hopefully I will have one in my hands pretty soon Very Happy
Re: Building a Biplane in Full Colour [message #70465 is a reply to message #70464 ] Tue, 25 June 2013 11:26 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar denali3ddesign  is currently offline denali3ddesign
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Cheers. Smile When you hear back from them, please post back here - I'm interested to learn what's happening.


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Re: Building a Biplane in Full Colour [message #70471 is a reply to message #70465 ] Tue, 25 June 2013 13:29 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar jamioflan  is currently offline jamioflan
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I have received a reply which told me to go here
http://www.shapeways.com/tutorials/textured_models_with_sket chup_and_meshlab

Unfortunately this tutorial only deals with a single texture and then briefly mentions at the end that if you want more than one, you should use a VRML editor. I think I may just try and combine all my textures into one to make things simpler.
Re: Building a Biplane in Full Colour [message #70473 is a reply to message #70471 ] Tue, 25 June 2013 13:46 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar jamioflan  is currently offline jamioflan
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I tried exporting from AccuTrans 3D as an X3D file and got a slightly better result.
Now most of the textures are correct, but the planks on the top wing are incorrectly rotated and one of the wheels is the wrong texture.
http://www.shapeways.com/model/1174912/flan-s-mod-minecraft- biplane.html
Re: Building a Biplane in Full Colour [message #70474 is a reply to message #70460 ] Tue, 25 June 2013 14:06 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar AmLachDesigns is currently online AmLachDesigns
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denali3ddesign wrote on Tue, 25 June 2013 10:49


The surprising thing to me is that you have 3 textures - I was under the impression that they had to be combined into one, but it appears that shapeways is applying them all correctly except for inside the cockpit where the faces are reversed.


I vaguely remember reading a post where (I think it was bartv) said that if you include multiple textures then the SW software will Boolean them together. I guess if this is the case then it is possible that the join operation does not actually match what is desired. Better if possible to create a single, correct, texture then the chances of confusion are minimised.
Re: Building a Biplane in Full Colour [message #70478 is a reply to message #70474 ] Tue, 25 June 2013 14:50 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar jamioflan  is currently offline jamioflan
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Finally, it looks right in both the snapshot and full 3D views! Thank you everyone so much for your help Very Happy
Re: Building a Biplane in Full Colour [message #70479 is a reply to message #70474 ] Tue, 25 June 2013 14:51 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar denali3ddesign  is currently offline denali3ddesign
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I'm late, but here's a tutorial I wrote for combining textures in Sketchup(direct PDF download, my tutorial is in the middle of the magazine).

You could also combine them in Photoshop simply.

How'd you get it working?


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Re: Building a Biplane in Full Colour [message #70480 is a reply to message #70479 ] Tue, 25 June 2013 14:55 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar jamioflan  is currently offline jamioflan
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I combined the textures myself and then did a lot of moving textures around in SketchUp.
Re: Building a Biplane in Full Colour [message #70481 is a reply to message #70480 ] Tue, 25 June 2013 14:56 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
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Did you combine the textures in Sketchup or photo editing software?


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Re: Building a Biplane in Full Colour [message #70482 is a reply to message #70481 ] Tue, 25 June 2013 14:56 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar jamioflan  is currently offline jamioflan
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In Paint.NET
Re: Building a Biplane in Full Colour [message #70484 is a reply to message #70482 ] Tue, 25 June 2013 14:58 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar denali3ddesign  is currently offline denali3ddesign
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Gotcha, thanks Smile Looks good now!


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Re: Building a Biplane in Full Colour [message #70820 is a reply to message #70484 ] Tue, 02 July 2013 10:32 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar jamioflan  is currently offline jamioflan
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The first prototype model is here Very Happy

http://i.imgur.com/NSgrcV8.jpg

The struts are a little too thick for the holes, so I'll widen the holes a little in the next version.
Also, there were a few struts missing, so I think I'll add a few extra on the model (it's understandable that not all of them make it through production)

As for this prototype, I would like to try and assemble it, despite its flaws, so I was wondering what kind of glue works best with the full colour sandstone. Also, I think cutting open the holes more or thinning the struts might be quite difficult, so would just filling the holes with glue and sticking the struts on top work?
Re: Building a Biplane in Full Colour [message #70823 is a reply to message #70820 ] Tue, 02 July 2013 10:52 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar denali3ddesign  is currently offline denali3ddesign
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Only one week from ordering to you receiving the plane?!? That's awesome!

I know Stony advised ordering the parts separately, but I can't help but think it would save everybody involved so much work if it was assembled in Sketchup. Perhaps adding a couple diagonal braces would make it strong enough?
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/0e/Jungmannstrut.JPG/250px-Jungmannstrut.JPG


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Re: Building a Biplane in Full Colour [message #70824 is a reply to message #70823 ] Tue, 02 July 2013 10:58 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar jamioflan  is currently offline jamioflan
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I guess I could try printing one in one piece, but there's only so many prototypes I can do before it starts getting a little too expensive for me.

Since this is a Minecraft style biplane, diagonal pieces might not quite look right, so I'd like to avoid them if possible
Re: Building a Biplane in Full Colour [message #70872 is a reply to message #70824 ] Wed, 03 July 2013 09:26 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar jamioflan  is currently offline jamioflan
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This is starting to look a little overkill, but would this work?

http://i.imgur.com/x5AXusO.png

Re: Building a Biplane in Full Colour [message #70886 is a reply to message #70872 ] Wed, 03 July 2013 13:13 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar denali3ddesign  is currently offline denali3ddesign
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I don't see why not!


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Re: Building a Biplane in Full Colour [message #71954 is a reply to message #70886 ] Mon, 22 July 2013 14:23 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar jamioflan  is currently offline jamioflan
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It was much slower this time, but I finally have the second (and quite possibly final) prototype!
It printed successfully and looks great, but it seems that in being packed up for transport it has received some marks from the bubble wrap.
Has anyone else had problems like this before?

http://i.imgur.com/GrUnKQh.jpg
Re: Building a Biplane in Full Colour [message #71955 is a reply to message #71954 ] Mon, 22 July 2013 14:43 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar stonysmith  is currently offline stonysmith
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That's a bit odd.. it looks like the model was placed into the bubble wrap when it was still wet, or.. the bubble wrap got VERY hot during shipment.


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Re: Building a Biplane in Full Colour [message #71956 is a reply to message #71955 ] Mon, 22 July 2013 15:13 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar jamioflan  is currently offline jamioflan
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It may well have been still wet.
I ordered another model with it that was a set of about 20 little flat pieces each 2mm thick and quite a few of them were stuck together in the bag.
Re: Building a Biplane in Full Colour [message #72096 is a reply to message #71956 ] Wed, 24 July 2013 14:40 UTC Go to previous messageGo to previous message
avatar jamioflan  is currently offline jamioflan
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I sent a message to Shapeways about it and they are sending me a new biplane (they agreed that it was probably still wet when packaged)

But, given that the model was otherwise a success, I have put it up for sale and am starting on my next model.
However, the model I want to print contains a small open top box and several flat 2mm thick pieces alongside it, but whenever I upload it, the preview only shows the box. Why might this be?

https://www.shapeways.com/model/1226541/


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