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Community Outreach [message #62251] Sun, 17 February 2013 19:40 UTC Go to next message
avatar Twopounder  is currently offline Twopounder
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This is more of a recommendation than a push to organize, but rapid prototyping has been getting some questionable press as of late. Most of it is flat wrong (such as the ability to 3d print working guns and grenades) or misleading, like the ability to print out whole cellphones. I've even had people tell me that it will replace normal casting and production lines, which is about as realistic as an ink jet printer replacing a professional print shop. Others tell me that it doesn't contain any detail and can't be used for small parts.

The problem is, nobody is really setting the record straight or explaining what 3d printing really and is not capable of. Finding a way to debunk myths and misunderstandings could go a long way to preventing a sudden witch hunt, as is all to often the case with new technology. Addressing these one person at a time is a bit exhausting. Maybe it would be good to make a series of youtube videos? Or establish a website with facts and an FAQ of sorts? Just some ideas to tackle the problem before it escalates.


http://fracturedmesh.blogspot.com/ - my 3d modeling blog
Re: Community Outreach [message #62284 is a reply to message #62251 ] Mon, 18 February 2013 06:29 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar Bathsheba  is currently offline Bathsheba
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Sure know what you mean. I can't wait for the media bubble to be over. I feel like it can't be long: the desktop machines are all over now, nobody with any actual interest in this subject can avoid coming into contact with actual parts.

Meanwhile I continue to discourage people one at a time. :-}


-Bathsheba
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Re: Community Outreach [message #62286 is a reply to message #62284 ] Mon, 18 February 2013 07:20 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar denali3ddesign  is currently offline denali3ddesign
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YES! I totally agree. It has gotten to the point where I can hardly stand to read any more "3D printing" articles.

This WIRED article is a great example of what we need more of: Shapeways' 3-D Printing Factory Tour Reveals the Handmade Future.

Shapeways' new "Ask an Engineer" initiative is also a step in the right direction.

[Updated on: Mon, 18 February 2013 07:23 UTC]


Trouble using SketchUp? Get my book "3D Printing with SketchUp" - http://bit.ly/1jQ4RtV
Re: Community Outreach [message #62290 is a reply to message #62286 ] Mon, 18 February 2013 08:44 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar mkroeker  is currently offline mkroeker
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Media live on selling stories, not necessarily information, so there will always be some eager to publish the most outrageous take on any
given topic. Also, journalists are not technology buffs, but experts in writing well readable essays on any given topic (which is not a mean feat
in itself at all!), so there will inevitably be inaccurracies and unrealistic forecasts even in well-researched, well-meaning pieces.
3D printing will be mainstream when we read the same bullshit stories about everyday occurences in the news as about any other non-trivial
profession. Smile
Re: Community Outreach [message #62296 is a reply to message #62290 ] Mon, 18 February 2013 10:04 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar UniverseBecoming  is currently offline UniverseBecoming
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I beg to differ! Very Happy I think you'll be pleasantly surprised by what the future holds for 3D printing.

I think that developments are happening so quickly that not everyone is aware of everything happening. Also, extreme industrial methods may not be known of simply cuz they are so obscure. Like for example, it is now currently possible to 3D print firearms and grenades and anything else one may wish to produce in a growing number of metal alloys. See Arcam and Eos for examples of machines that can do it.

As for 3D printing a phone, no, not yet, But I'm going to predict that it will be done within one year. Recall that we have already been 3D printing integrated circuits for decades. It's a process of both additive and subtractive manufacturing, but they are built in 3D layers or 3D printed in layers. Same for TFT displays. It's only a very short amount of time before a single machine can 3D print an entire phone in situ.

Will 3D printing replace metal casting? YES! Very Happy For low volume manufacturing the age old methods will still be used, but for ultra high volume casting there will be no way to compete with 3D printing.

There will simply be no way to compete with the speed and precision of 3D printing. All high volume manufacturing of the future will be done by 3D printing. We won't have to wait long to see it happen too! I have a complete CNC machine shop, but I am more and more using 3D printing for everything cuz it is so much more convenient. It's getting to where I don't want to sit and figure out work holding and tool paths and all that. I just to design it and basically push a button and forget about it.

Am I wrong? Well, we don't have long to wait to find out! Very Happy






It always was. It always was because somethingness cannot spawn from nothingness. And in the was of the past there is the forever of the now. Only now. Only now and nothing new, for anything new would add to the infinite, yet there can only be one infinite. Only one. The universe is only becoming something new in the delusion of our minds. This delusion that makes life worth living in our perceived universe becoming.
Re: Community Outreach [message #62298 is a reply to message #62296 ] Mon, 18 February 2013 10:13 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar mkroeker  is currently offline mkroeker
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For small-scale production you certainly have a point (though I still think that there will remain many simple parts that are more quickly milled than
printed). When it comes to large volumes however, I do not see sheet metal stamping and injection moulding being replaced anytime soon.
Re: Community Outreach [message #62300 is a reply to message #62298 ] Mon, 18 February 2013 10:46 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar UniverseBecoming  is currently offline UniverseBecoming
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Yeah, those will be tough to replace! The only way I could see it happening would be in how our ability to manufacture entire products in situ progresses. If we can make an entire car for example in one day with one machine without the need of an army of factory workers, then yes those methods would disappear. I can envision a facility where railroad cars of materials are being dumped into one end and hundreds of fully functional cars are coming out the other end with very little human intervention.

Of course for things like the ubiquitous aluminum beverage can, I don't see how that will ever be produce by 3D printing. Unless... Unless some breakthrough occurs that lets us 3D print a LOT faster.






It always was. It always was because somethingness cannot spawn from nothingness. And in the was of the past there is the forever of the now. Only now. Only now and nothing new, for anything new would add to the infinite, yet there can only be one infinite. Only one. The universe is only becoming something new in the delusion of our minds. This delusion that makes life worth living in our perceived universe becoming.
Re: Community Outreach [message #62308 is a reply to message #62296 ] Mon, 18 February 2013 12:30 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar Twopounder  is currently offline Twopounder
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UniverseBecoming wrote on Mon, 18 February 2013 10:04

I beg to differ! Very Happy I think you'll be pleasantly surprised by what the future holds for 3D printing.

I think that developments are happening so quickly that not everyone is aware of everything happening. Also, extreme industrial methods may not be known of simply cuz they are so obscure. Like for example, it is now currently possible to 3D print firearms and grenades and anything else one may wish to produce in a growing number of metal alloys. See Arcam and Eos for examples of machines that can do it.

As for 3D printing a phone, no, not yet, But I'm going to predict that it will be done within one year. Recall that we have already been 3D printing integrated circuits for decades. It's a process of both additive and subtractive manufacturing, but they are built in 3D layers or 3D printed in layers. Same for TFT displays. It's only a very short amount of time before a single machine can 3D print an entire phone in situ.

Will 3D printing replace metal casting? YES! Very Happy For low volume manufacturing the age old methods will still be used, but for ultra high volume casting there will be no way to compete with 3D printing.

There will simply be no way to compete with the speed and precision of 3D printing. All high volume manufacturing of the future will be done by 3D printing. We won't have to wait long to see it happen too! I have a complete CNC machine shop, but I am more and more using 3D printing for everything cuz it is so much more convenient. It's getting to where I don't want to sit and figure out work holding and tool paths and all that. I just to design it and basically push a button and forget about it.

Am I wrong? Well, we don't have long to wait to find out! Very Happy


You have that backwards. Low volume production might be replaced, but it will always be faster to use traditional fabricating, simply because you can make hundreds of parts in one pass (seconds). That simply is not possible with any level of printing technology because the printer head has physical travel time.

The analogy I give above is an ink jet or laser printer vs a printing press. The press can print several magnitudes faster because it presses a dozen sheets at a time at a dozen presses per second. The newer machines are probably even faster. No matter the quality of an inkjet printer, it's still limited by the speed of its print head.

Yes, you could 3d print the shell of a grenade. Would it work? No. These articles imply that it will. Also, I have yet to see anything that can print out the kind of tensile strength found in gun barrels. There is a reason that this is called rapid prototyping and not rapid manufacturing Wink.

Quote:

Yeah, those will be tough to replace! The only way I could see it happening would be in how our ability to manufacture entire products in situ progresses. If we can make an entire car for example in one day with one machine without the need of an army of factory workers, then yes those methods would disappear. I can envision a facility where railroad cars of materials are being dumped into one end and hundreds of fully functional cars are coming out the other end with very little human intervention.

Of course for things like the ubiquitous aluminum beverage can, I don't see how that will ever be produce by 3D printing. Unless... Unless some breakthrough occurs that lets us 3D print a LOT faster.


That will never happen, simply because of the copyrights and patents involved. Even if you could 3d print an entire car, copyright and patent law would prohibit it. Cars are assembled in those factories, not built, and the parts originate from all over the world.


http://fracturedmesh.blogspot.com/ - my 3d modeling blog
Re: Community Outreach [message #62312 is a reply to message #62300 ] Mon, 18 February 2013 13:35 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar mkroeker  is currently offline mkroeker
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Quote:

The only way I could see it happening would be in how our ability to manufacture entire products in situ progresses

I plan to be impressed when you can print me a perfectly ordinary, functioning wristwatch (no, sundials do not count).
Somehow i fear by the time this becomes possible, few if any will actually know what a wristwatch was used for. Very Happy
Re: Community Outreach [message #62359 is a reply to message #62296 ] Tue, 19 February 2013 04:53 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar Bathsheba  is currently offline Bathsheba
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Oh honey. Check the label -- that's Kool-aid you're drinking.


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Re: Community Outreach [message #62437 is a reply to message #62308 ] Wed, 20 February 2013 07:14 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar UniverseBecoming  is currently offline UniverseBecoming
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Twopounder wrote on Mon, 18 February 2013 12:30

You have that backwards. Low volume production might be replaced, but it will always be faster to use traditional fabricating, simply because you can make hundreds of parts in one pass (seconds). That simply is not possible with any level of printing technology because the printer head has physical travel time.

True, in cases where the end product is mostly a single element like aluminum beverage cans. Yet, I'm mostly referring to in situ manufacturing where a whole product with thousands of parts is grown all in one shot and thousands of these machines growing the products simultaneously. No, we do not have this capability as of yet, but we will in time.


The analogy I give above is an ink jet or laser printer vs a printing press. The press can print several magnitudes faster because it presses a dozen sheets at a time at a dozen presses per second. The newer machines are probably even faster. No matter the quality of an inkjet printer, it's still limited by the speed of its print head.

Yes, you could 3d print the shell of a grenade. Would it work? No. These articles imply that it will. Also, I have yet to see anything that can print out the kind of tensile strength found in gun barrels. There is a reason that this is called rapid prototyping and not rapid manufacturing Wink.

As for a grenade, all that is needed is a shell of any kind, to keep the explosive from being contaminated. High explosives do not need to be confined momentarily to facilitate detonation. If the shell is made from anything heavy like a metal then it can aid in the lethality via fragmentation.

As for gun barrels, are you saying that the various tool steel alloys being used with DMLS wouldn't have enough tensile strength? No, you wouldn't say that. Smile I think the issue with 3D printed firearms is more of a legal / political situation wherein those with access to the machines that can do it don't want to cause waves. Also, the whole controversy mainly started with Defense Distributed wanting to 3D print a firearm and distribute the CAD files to anyone that would like to print out their own 3D printed firearm. They would have already been successful had they got their hands on a DMLS capable machine.


Quote:

Yeah, those will be tough to replace! The only way I could see it happening would be in how our ability to manufacture entire products in situ progresses. If we can make an entire car for example in one day with one machine without the need of an army of factory workers, then yes those methods would disappear. I can envision a facility where railroad cars of materials are being dumped into one end and hundreds of fully functional cars are coming out the other end with very little human intervention.

Of course for things like the ubiquitous aluminum beverage can, I don't see how that will ever be produce by 3D printing. Unless... Unless some breakthrough occurs that lets us 3D print a LOT faster.


That will never happen, simply because of the copyrights and patents involved. Even if you could 3d print an entire car, copyright and patent law would prohibit it. Cars are assembled in those factories, not built, and the parts originate from all over the world.


Patent owners who license their patents don't care how anyone constructs their inventions, all they care about is getting paid. Smile






It always was. It always was because somethingness cannot spawn from nothingness. And in the was of the past there is the forever of the now. Only now. Only now and nothing new, for anything new would add to the infinite, yet there can only be one infinite. Only one. The universe is only becoming something new in the delusion of our minds. This delusion that makes life worth living in our perceived universe becoming.
Re: Community Outreach [message #62438 is a reply to message #62312 ] Wed, 20 February 2013 07:22 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar UniverseBecoming  is currently offline UniverseBecoming
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mkroeker wrote on Mon, 18 February 2013 13:35

Quote:

The only way I could see it happening would be in how our ability to manufacture entire products in situ progresses

I plan to be impressed when you can print me a perfectly ordinary, functioning wristwatch (no, sundials do not count).
Somehow i fear by the time this becomes possible, few if any will actually know what a wristwatch was used for. Very Happy


Actually, right now, it is possible to print a mechanical based wrist watch in situ. I think one could probably even pull it off in Shapeways' FUD, but for sure there are a number of 3D printing methods that have been developed for MEMS (Microelectromechanical Systems) manufacturing that would easily pull it off. Smile






It always was. It always was because somethingness cannot spawn from nothingness. And in the was of the past there is the forever of the now. Only now. Only now and nothing new, for anything new would add to the infinite, yet there can only be one infinite. Only one. The universe is only becoming something new in the delusion of our minds. This delusion that makes life worth living in our perceived universe becoming.
Re: Community Outreach [message #62441 is a reply to message #62438 ] Wed, 20 February 2013 08:04 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar mkroeker  is currently offline mkroeker
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Sorry, wrong planet ? Razz
I assume you might be confusing CVD/etching based processes (which do allow creation of tiny coils, *pairs* of tiny gears etc. down to truly microscopic dimensions, but are in essence subtractive methods) with SLS/FDM printing ? And good luck with building a bunch of interacting gears held by perfectly smooth bearings out of FUD..

[Updated on: Wed, 20 February 2013 09:02 UTC]

Re: Community Outreach [message #62442 is a reply to message #62441 ] Wed, 20 February 2013 09:04 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar UniverseBecoming  is currently offline UniverseBecoming
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In my mind anything that is built in layers is 3D printing regardless of the method, but what I was thinking of at that moment was two photon lithography.

From what I've seen so far concerning FUD, I think that it can probably be done. Perhaps it would be fun to work on this! Very Happy






It always was. It always was because somethingness cannot spawn from nothingness. And in the was of the past there is the forever of the now. Only now. Only now and nothing new, for anything new would add to the infinite, yet there can only be one infinite. Only one. The universe is only becoming something new in the delusion of our minds. This delusion that makes life worth living in our perceived universe becoming.
hype cycle [message #62519 is a reply to message #62251 ] Thu, 21 February 2013 13:05 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar kontor_apart  is currently offline kontor_apart
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nothing but the good old Gartner hype cycle ...

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Re: Community Outreach [message #62768 is a reply to message #62251 ] Mon, 25 February 2013 19:26 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar Twopounder  is currently offline Twopounder
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Quote:

As for gun barrels, are you saying that the various tool steel alloys being used with DMLS wouldn't have enough tensile strength? No, you wouldn't say that. I think the issue with 3D printed firearms is more of a legal / political situation wherein those with access to the machines that can do it don't want to cause waves. Also, the whole controversy mainly started with Defense Distributed wanting to 3D print a firearm and distribute the CAD files to anyone that would like to print out their own 3D printed firearm. They would have already been successful had they got their hands on a DMLS capable machine.


Yes, I would say that. My father was a gunsmith for no small amount of years. Aside from lacking the strength to withstand the amount of heat and pressure, the barrels would not be polished and would have to be re-bored, then chrome lined. The crown requires absolute perfection, and the smallest amount of stepping or pitting would require the crown to be recut. So you're basically rebuilding the barrel after you print it anyway.

Could you make a musket? Sure. Low pressure, low heat, and no need for rifling. Politically, what's the difference between printing and milling? None? Thought so Wink. Process A and Process B have the same politics and end results. The only difference is that 3d printing is new, so everyone thinks we'll have flying cars in the year 2000.


http://fracturedmesh.blogspot.com/ - my 3d modeling blog
Re: Community Outreach [message #62783 is a reply to message #62768 ] Mon, 25 February 2013 21:05 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar UniverseBecoming  is currently offline UniverseBecoming
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No not new, it's been around for 29 years. It was first developed by Charles Hull in 1984 when he built his first machine for making physical 3D objects from digital data. Perhaps it seems new to people cuz the technology is expanding exponentially, so it seems newer and newer every day.

I'd like to know what alloy you are referring to that is more robust than the various tool steel alloys available with DMLS. Do you have any references? Of course one wouldn't be able to duplicate the worlds best perfectly machined gun barrel with the 3D printing technology of today, but one can certainly 3D print working firearms and not just black powder types of firearms. The quality wouldn't be immaculate, like what one could achieve with modern day machining centers, but it would be good enough to fire rounds. Even rifling could be attained, but not perfectly formed rifling like what can be attained by the worlds best conventional machining methods.

The issue is, can a working firearm be 3D printed? Yes or no? This was your initial statement that partially caused me to react. "Most of it is flat wrong (such as the ability to 3d print working guns and grenades)"

I love being wrong, cuz I love to learn new things. Smile Sounds like your father has the experience to set me straight, so I'd like to learn about what he has to say about alloys used in firearms. If I can get the name of an alloy or two I can then compare the known properties to the known properties of those as printed alloys available with DMLS.






It always was. It always was because somethingness cannot spawn from nothingness. And in the was of the past there is the forever of the now. Only now. Only now and nothing new, for anything new would add to the infinite, yet there can only be one infinite. Only one. The universe is only becoming something new in the delusion of our minds. This delusion that makes life worth living in our perceived universe becoming.
Re: Community Outreach [message #62794 is a reply to message #62783 ] Mon, 25 February 2013 22:02 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar Mhagan  is currently offline Mhagan
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DMLS metals are not 100% dense. This means that even if two parts with identical geometry, one machined from a block and the other printed, are made of the same alloy, the machined part will be stronger.

[Updated on: Mon, 25 February 2013 22:03 UTC]


3D Printing Engineer | Shapeways
Re: Community Outreach [message #62795 is a reply to message #62794 ] Mon, 25 February 2013 23:18 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar UniverseBecoming  is currently offline UniverseBecoming
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True. As are castings less dense than calendared metals. If I had some alloys to compare properties with I would compare them to alloys as printed via DMLS so as to be fair.

I know you have a good point, but I still say some as printed DMLS alloys would be more than strong enough to handle the pressures involved with the modern day ammunition that is available. Perhaps one could argue when comparing wall thickness of printed as opposed to non-printed, but that's not the question. The question is, can it even be done. Done in such a way that the result will be a working firearm. Consequently, if a barrel with a wall thickness of say, 40 mm for a 22 caliber, were needed, it wouldn't be pretty, but it would still be possible.






It always was. It always was because somethingness cannot spawn from nothingness. And in the was of the past there is the forever of the now. Only now. Only now and nothing new, for anything new would add to the infinite, yet there can only be one infinite. Only one. The universe is only becoming something new in the delusion of our minds. This delusion that makes life worth living in our perceived universe becoming.
Re: Community Outreach [message #62799 is a reply to message #62795 ] Tue, 26 February 2013 02:21 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar PeregrineStudios  is currently offline PeregrineStudios
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What really bothers me about the alarmist 'you can print WEAPONS!' articles is that it's already ridiculously easy to make a weapon even without 3D printing. You could conceivably pop down to a Home Depot and come home with all the parts needed to make a fully functional firearm, minus the chemicals (such as gunpowder) of course. I'm not saying you should! But I'm saying it upsets to me to see people try to be alarmist about 3D printing, as though no one could do this before.
Re: Community Outreach [message #78462 is a reply to message #62799 ] Fri, 08 November 2013 07:30 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar UniverseBecoming  is currently offline UniverseBecoming
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I guess I get the final laugh! HAHAHA! Very Happy

http://youtu.be/u7ZYKMBDm4M

I must confess that I cheated though. I cheated cuz I'm more of a psychic than an engineer. It's my strange feeling of intuition that tells me what is possible for the future. Smile






It always was. It always was because somethingness cannot spawn from nothingness. And in the was of the past there is the forever of the now. Only now. Only now and nothing new, for anything new would add to the infinite, yet there can only be one infinite. Only one. The universe is only becoming something new in the delusion of our minds. This delusion that makes life worth living in our perceived universe becoming.
Re: Community Outreach [message #78524 is a reply to message #62251 ] Fri, 08 November 2013 18:53 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar FreeRangeBrain is currently online FreeRangeBrain
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Quote:

I've even had people tell me that it will replace normal casting and production lines, which is about as realistic as an ink jet printer replacing a professional print shop.


Currently, it's more like a typewriter replacing a print shop.


Creativity - sometimes by the brute force method.
Re: Community Outreach [message #78580 is a reply to message #78524 ] Sat, 09 November 2013 16:13 UTC Go to previous message
avatar bartv  is currently offline bartv
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Journalists are of course always looking for the most spectacular story. I guess that's why the gun story works so well - it freaks everyone out while it would be easier and cheaper to build a gun from Home Depot parts. Also you wouldn't believe how often I get the 'so can you print a pizza' question at lectures and events Smile

In addition, most people have no idea how this technology works and this makes their imagination run wild. Like Arthur C. Clarke said 'Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.'. I'm sure we're working magic for a lot of people Smile

Bart


Community Manager Europe | Shapeways

 
   
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