Home » Community » General Discussion » Materials Improvement: Tell us about FD/FUD
Search Search  
Show: Today's Messages    Show Polls    Message Navigator
Materials Improvement: Tell us about FD/FUD [message #56445] Wed, 07 November 2012 21:31 UTC Go to next message
avatar natalia  is currently offline natalia
Messages: 796
Registered: September 2008
Go to all my models
Senior Member
I work here
Hi Guys,

We're looking at our materials, and how our community uses them. We are always looking to improve the choices and make quality better so we want to get some feedback about your preferences.

The current materials we're examining are FUD and FD.

I know I see a lot of FUD in the It Arrived, but not as much FD.

If you use FD or FUD, what do you use it for?
What qualities of each do you prefer?
If you use FD do you use it for final product, or as a less expensive prototype material for future FUD use?
Are they interchangeable in your eyes? Would they be more interchangeable if price was not a factor?

Let us know!

Natalia and Michael


Shapeways Community Manager
Re: Materials Improvement: Tell us about FD/FUD [message #56478 is a reply to message #56445 ] Thu, 08 November 2012 13:50 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar Youknowwho4eva is currently online Youknowwho4eva
Messages: 5397
Registered: September 2008
Go to my shop
Shapie Expert
I work here
To get everybody started, I'll add that personally I have used FD once. I have not used FUD. I used FD because I wanted thin walls, but I didn't need super detail. I also was going off the material sample page, where FUD looks less transparent. And most importantly of all, it was less expensive!


I learned a long time ago the wisest thing I can do is be on my own side, be an advocate for myself and others like me. -Maya Angelou
michael@shapeways.com
Re: Materials Improvement: Tell us about FD/FUD [message #56485 is a reply to message #56478 ] Thu, 08 November 2012 14:55 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar stonysmith  is currently offline stonysmith
Messages: 1917
Registered: August 2008
Go to my shop
Shapie Expert
moderator
Because of the scale I work in and that I'm trying to do high-detail models, FUD is the way to go for me. Some 75% of my shop is FUD-only. The thicker wall requirement of FD means that I can NOT interchange designs. Yes, FD is attractive for the lower cost, but to use it I would have to re-design every model for the thicker wall requirement, and that defeats the purpose of using FD as a 'draft' print.

The disctinction is very clear: which of these would YOU buy?
index.php?t=getfile&id=22471&private=0

  • Attachment: FDFUD.jpg
    (Size: 40.38KB, Downloaded 588 time(s))


Patience, Persistance, Politeness - the 3Ps will help us get us to Perfect Printed Products
Re: Materials Improvement: Tell us about FD/FUD [message #56493 is a reply to message #56485 ] Thu, 08 November 2012 16:29 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar Jettuh  is currently offline Jettuh
Messages: 476
Registered: January 2009
Go to my shop
Senior Member
Only reason I ever bought FD is cause it the bounding box was bigger.

Rest of my Shop is FUD + WSF (for chassis)

Please note that FD is also less strong Wink
Re: Materials Improvement: Tell us about FD/FUD [message #56566 is a reply to message #56493 ] Fri, 09 November 2012 17:21 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar denali3ddesign  is currently offline denali3ddesign
Messages: 522
Registered: February 2011
Go to my shop
Senior Member
I bought FUD once, FD not at all.

I prefer the FUD for the higher resolution, which is the reason I purchased it. It worked great for my purposes, which was a prototype of a threaded fastener. The model interfaced perfectly with a 1/4" bolt from the hardware store.


Trouble using SketchUp? Get my book "3D Printing with SketchUp" - http://bit.ly/1jQ4RtV
Re: Materials Improvement: Tell us about FD/FUD [message #56574 is a reply to message #56566 ] Fri, 09 November 2012 19:44 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar GWMT  is currently offline GWMT
Messages: 196
Registered: February 2011
Go to my shop
Senior Member
I've experimented with both; I prefer FUD for its finer detail and smoother flat surfaces.

FD has a much larger build volume and is quite flexible when printed in thin sheets - it feels and acts kinda like Tupperware does. Details are very sharp and precise (I've successfully printed slot and tab parts with 0.06mm clearance around the tab) but there's much more 'fuzz' (maybe 0.3mm worth) left on the piece after the print nozzle shuts off; you have to scrape this away (it easily comes off), especially if you're joining parts together.
index.php?t=getfile&id=22528&private=0

Re: Materials Improvement: Tell us about FD/FUD [message #56576 is a reply to message #56574 ] Fri, 09 November 2012 20:09 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar GWMT  is currently offline GWMT
Messages: 196
Registered: February 2011
Go to my shop
Senior Member
Another problem/feature of FD is that there's a visible grain structure on flat faces. This could be a feature if you want to simulate wood grain and you can control the print orientation so the grain runs in the direction you want it to, but it's not so great if you're simulating a smooth surface like steel in 1:87 scale
index.php?t=getfile&id=22535&private=0

The texture is not deep - it's only about 0.1mm - but it cannot be filled in with paint unless you want to lose a lot of fine detail on the model. I found the best solution is to paint the part then sand it EVERYWHERE you want to be smooth with a medium grade sanding stick. It doesn't take much sanding to smooth things out - the paint acts like a filler in the lowest spots. The hard part is working around surface details (like a 100s of rivets) without knocking them off; take your time and you'll succeed.

You'll need to paint the part again when you're finished sanding.

My wish would be to have the same size bounding box for FUD as FD; the largest piece you can print in FUD is 50 feet long at 1:87 scale which is too small for a lot of the stuff I'd like to do.

Re: Materials Improvement: Tell us about FD/FUD [message #56578 is a reply to message #56576 ] Fri, 09 November 2012 20:48 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar Bathsheba  is currently offline Bathsheba
Messages: 329
Registered: August 2008
Go to my shop
Senior Member
Shapeways Crew
Question for the mavens in this thread: is there a strength difference between these two materials?

I have a fish looking for an extremely detailed model that's also not very structural, and I'm wondering whether we take more risk by using FUD.


-Bathsheba
http://bathsheba.com
Re: Materials Improvement: Tell us about FD/FUD [message #56590 is a reply to message #56578 ] Sat, 10 November 2012 04:10 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar stonysmith  is currently offline stonysmith
Messages: 1917
Registered: August 2008
Go to my shop
Shapie Expert
moderator
Even at 0.6mm, FUD, is rather brittle. Believe me.. at 0.3mm, if you BREATHE on FUD it'll break.

But.. at 1.5 to 2mm thick, FUD is solid as a rock. I have this model: http://shpws.me/lDev and I'd dare say that it'd support 5 pounds of weight without breaking.

That's the tradeoff for FUD.. it is quite strong and therefore allows you to design much thinner walls, but as you make them thinner, it weakens the material.


Patience, Persistance, Politeness - the 3Ps will help us get us to Perfect Printed Products
Re: Materials Improvement: Tell us about FD/FUD [message #56639 is a reply to message #56590 ] Sun, 11 November 2012 18:25 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar Dragoman  is currently offline Dragoman
Messages: 173
Registered: August 2011
Go to my shop
Senior Member
I make fairly small models, and offer various materials. WSF, "Detail" and FUD sell well. FD hardly sells. It seems that customers that can afford FD are willing to pay the difference for FUD.

Greetings
Dragoman
Re: Materials Improvement: Tell us about FD/FUD [message #56693 is a reply to message #56639 ] Mon, 12 November 2012 14:28 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar Bunrattypark  is currently offline Bunrattypark
Messages: 120
Registered: February 2011
Go to my shop
Senior Member
I used FUD once, in it's early days. The result was so full of nasty yellow gunk, that it put me right off FUD. I believe, reading here, that it has improved, but my confidence was shaken a bit. However, the real reason I don't use FUD is because it is too expensive. I may consider it for a few personal modelling projects in the future, but as a medium for public sales, it is a way beyond the price range of other resin-based materials and resin casting that are in common use in my hobby, and so, is entirely uncompetitive. It would need to be absolutely perfect to justify the cost, and it isn't. My customers wouldn't consider it.
Re: Materials Improvement: Tell us about FD/FUD [message #56703 is a reply to message #56693 ] Mon, 12 November 2012 15:22 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar Youknowwho4eva is currently online Youknowwho4eva
Messages: 5397
Registered: September 2008
Go to my shop
Shapie Expert
I work here
Bunrattypark wrote on Mon, 12 November 2012 14:28

I used FUD once, in it's early days. The result was so full of nasty yellow gunk, that it put me right off FUD. I believe, reading here, that it has improved, but my confidence was shaken a bit. However, the real reason I don't use FUD is because it is too expensive. I may consider it for a few personal modelling projects in the future, but as a medium for public sales, it is a way beyond the price range of other resin-based materials and resin casting that are in common use in my hobby, and so, is entirely uncompetitive. It would need to be absolutely perfect to justify the cost, and it isn't. My customers wouldn't consider it.


What about FD's price? Hypothetically if FUD were the same price as FD, would you and your customers be more likely to us it?


I learned a long time ago the wisest thing I can do is be on my own side, be an advocate for myself and others like me. -Maya Angelou
michael@shapeways.com
Re: Materials Improvement: Tell us about FD/FUD [message #56900 is a reply to message #56703 ] Thu, 15 November 2012 16:55 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar BillBedford  is currently offline BillBedford
Messages: 346
Registered: November 2008
Go to my shop
Senior Member
I've used the frosted details for some time now, choosing the ultra and plain detail depending on the resolution, size or price of the finished models. While it is a good all round material for many of the items I make, there are two problem areas. The first is that it is brittle in small sections, and also it can have a surface texture that is dependent on the build orientation. This means that they is not a consistent look to models from different builds. For these reasons I have decided that it is problematic selling this material direct to the general public. However it is a very good material for pattern making for various downstream processes.

Recently I have bought some models made in the same material from a different supplier. This company finishes the pieces by bead blasting rather than using ultrasonic baths. I have been impressed with surface finish on these pieces to the extent of acquiring my own small bead blaster.


index.php?t=getfile&id=22806&private=0

If Shapeways were to offer bead blasting as either an alternative to ultrasonic cleaning, or as an add-on service, I feel that both FUD and FD would become more popular, especially among those of us who would like to be confident that we could sell it direct to the public.

[Updated on: Thu, 15 November 2012 16:56 UTC]


Bill Bedford
Re: Materials Improvement: Tell us about FD/FUD [message #56939 is a reply to message #56445 ] Fri, 16 November 2012 03:35 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar Phxman  is currently offline Phxman
Messages: 104
Registered: June 2012
Go to all my models
Senior Member
With model railroad items, FUD is the way to go. However the fine detail does
present problems because the material is so brittle. Often this can be cured
by alterations to the drawing. I have had just one failure where handling at
Shapeways caused a broken detail, and it was replaced.

For quality control I agree, selling via a Shapeways Shop is out of the question, as
each print needs to be inspected. It would be nice if Shapeways kept notes on drawings
for best orientation in the build, especially for repeat prints. So far Shapeways have
been pretty good at it.

To date, I have not had any customer complaints, and any cleaning has been readily
accepted.
Re: Materials Improvement: Tell us about FD/FUD [message #56976 is a reply to message #56939 ] Fri, 16 November 2012 21:57 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar Jettuh  is currently offline Jettuh
Messages: 476
Registered: January 2009
Go to my shop
Senior Member
Hey Bill,

Attached is a picture of one of my trains that did go through the normal process like always, but after that i used the glass fiber stuff which we use to clean WSF on the FUD model, this is the result:

index.php?t=getfile&id=22862&private=0
normally it would look like this:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/57124849@N07/6702808571/in/phot ostream

please do note, this will be really hard to achieve with all those tiny little parts people order, that will either blow them away or break them Twisted Evil

[Updated on: Fri, 16 November 2012 22:02 UTC]

Re: Materials Improvement: Tell us about FD/FUD [message #56977 is a reply to message #56976 ] Fri, 16 November 2012 22:11 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar GWMT  is currently offline GWMT
Messages: 196
Registered: February 2011
Go to my shop
Senior Member
Wow! What a difference.

Have you got a video or step-by-step photos showing how you cleaned it?
Re: Materials Improvement: Tell us about FD/FUD [message #56978 is a reply to message #56977 ] Fri, 16 November 2012 22:33 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar Jettuh  is currently offline Jettuh
Messages: 476
Registered: January 2009
Go to my shop
Senior Member
can you ask me on Monday? Razz

Maybe I can try another train when I'm in the office.
Of course I have to carefully schedule it as the production team really needs that machine to clean all WSF models Cool


ps. i did sand the model a bit, but the glass fiber stuff did really help clean the model and make it smooth, the sanding was just a finishing touch Very Happy
Re: Materials Improvement: Tell us about FD/FUD [message #57037 is a reply to message #56703 ] Sun, 18 November 2012 20:49 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar Bunrattypark  is currently offline Bunrattypark
Messages: 120
Registered: February 2011
Go to my shop
Senior Member
Youknowwho4eva wrote on Mon, 12 November 2012 15:22

What about FD's price? Hypothetically if FUD were the same price as FD, would you and your customers be more likely to us it?


I'll take one model from my Shapeways shop, the smallest one.

Shapeways:
Cost in WSF - € 31.16
Cost in FD - € 61.76
Cost in FUD - € 88.05

I-materialise:
Polyamide - € 24.56
Prime Gray - € 44.59

My shop is suspended at the moment. I decided to give it a year to see what developments might transpire. Besides which, I am busy on other things. I'd like to get my shop back into operation shortly, but I-materialise are trumping Shapeways on those prices. Both FD and FUD are out of consideration for me at those prices. I am sure there are other considerations too, but my next prototype, which is very near completion, will be sent to I-materialise. I'd like to see Shapeways offer a similar material to Prime Gray, but you would have to match the price above, for a 63x103x35mm model.
Re: Materials Improvement: Tell us about FD/FUD [message #57038 is a reply to message #57037 ] Sun, 18 November 2012 21:29 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar GWMT  is currently offline GWMT
Messages: 196
Registered: February 2011
Go to my shop
Senior Member
There are no problems with 'nasty yellow gunk' anymore on FD and FUD prints; the new support material cleans up easy and doesn't leach out of the part later on.

The photo shows parts printed with the new support material on the left and the original 'yellow gunk' support material on the right. The part on the left was printed about eight months ago and was immediately immersed in acetone for cleaning. It hasn't changed since it was cleaned; the bumps on the left side of the parts are dribbles of material deposited after the print nozzle shut off

The part on the right is about 12 months old and was also immersed in acetone when it arrived and at first was very close in appearance to the part on the left, just a bit yellow. Over time it really yellowed and white salt crystals appeared on the surface. Other parts from this 'yellow' batch which were assembled and painted also have white salt crystals on top of the paint at this time.
index.php?t=getfile&id=22941&private=0

Re: Materials Improvement: Tell us about FD/FUD [message #57121 is a reply to message #57038 ] Mon, 19 November 2012 21:35 UTC Go to previous message
avatar onosendai  is currently offline onosendai
Messages: 2
Registered: February 2012
Go to all my models
Junior Member
Using FUD only for the highest level of detail but are not satisfied with the quality of the surfaces, as others have said, every time I have to work hard on surfaces with a lot of primer, sanding, primer......very annoying

http://www.videoaviation.com/wp-content/gallery/clark72/04grey.jpg

 
   
Previous Topic:Stainless steel multiple objects
Next Topic:Copyrights

Logo

Hello.

We're sorry to inform you that we no longer support this browser and can't confirm that everything will work as expected. For the best Shapeways experience, please use one of the following browsers:

Click anywhere outside this window to continue.