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Print Rejected on Model which was already printed several times [message #53376] Thu, 30 August 2012 16:42 UTC Go to next message
avatar vaclav.mazany  is currently offline vaclav.mazany
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Hi all,
I'm getting problems resolving this issue.

Right now I'm struggling a bit with SW support, which rejected my model which a Customer ordered (NOT ME) -> this seems to be quite a problem on Support, to understand, that's why I'm stating this as clearly as possible.

The problem is with this model :
http://shpws.me/eFwE

Which is just a smaller version of this model :
http://shpws.me/3QPf

The rejected description is :

* The following models have been rejected by our production team:

* Matchstick ring 17mm in Silver
* Reason: Can not be printed
* Additional information: Narrow openings betweern base and bars, will fail in casting
index.php?t=getfile&id=20062&private=0

The weird thing is, that the original ring, has the same intricate parts, same everything. And it WAS printed before, several times. The updated version is just a smaller version for a customer, which couldn't order through Co-Creator template - because of Shapeways "in shape" changes.
This makes me wonder, where's consistency about decisions what can / cannot be printed ? I have one SILVER print of this ring at home.

I did contact support with this, but Michon van Tuijl wasn't very helpful with this. The funniest thing was that he told me, that I should download NetFabb for checking the model, which I do have, which I do use. And after my second atempt/email, I didn't get any other responses.

So, just to state what I wanted to know from Shapeways Support :
* The customer who ordered it, needs it till 13 september -> SO if I'll be able to fix the issues (which I really think are invalid, because it was printed,casted several times before), is it possible to somehow "push" it a bit forward in the production, so the customer gets it in time ?
* Secondly, is the staff who checks the models 110% sure, that this model CANNOT be printed ? I really want to clarify this, because right now, I'm holding this ring, one in silver, one in stainless steel.

Or if anyone can sort of, help how should I approach these kind of issues ? Because, if models which were printed before, get rejected. I can keep changing models till eternity.

Re: Print Rejected on Model which was already printed several times [message #53378 is a reply to message #53376 ] Thu, 30 August 2012 17:08 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar Youknowwho4eva  is currently offline Youknowwho4eva
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vaclav.mazany wrote on Thu, 30 August 2012 16:42

Hi all,
I'm getting problems resolving this issue.

Right now I'm struggling a bit with SW support, which rejected my model which a Customer ordered (NOT ME) -> this seems to be quite a problem on Support, to understand, that's why I'm stating this as clearly as possible.

The problem is with this model :
http://shpws.me/eFwE

Which is just a smaller version of this model :
http://shpws.me/3QPf

The rejected description is :

* The following models have been rejected by our production team:

* Matchstick ring 17mm in Silver
* Reason: Can not be printed
* Additional information: Narrow openings betweern base and bars, will fail in casting
index.php?t=getfile&id=20062&private=0

The weird thing is, that the original ring, has the same intricate parts, same everything. And it WAS printed before, several times. The updated version is just a smaller version for a customer, which couldn't order through Co-Creator template - because of Shapeways "in shape" changes.
This makes me wonder, where's consistency about decisions what can / cannot be printed ? I have one SILVER print of this ring at home.


Is the gap now smaller than the original?

vaclav.mazany wrote on Thu, 30 August 2012 16:42

I did contact support with this, but Michon van Tuijl wasn't very helpful with this. The funniest thing was that he told me, that I should download NetFabb for checking the model, which I do have, which I do use. And after my second atempt/email, I didn't get any other responses.


When was your second email? Most of CS is over seas so now they are probably out of office until Monday.

vaclav.mazany wrote on Thu, 30 August 2012 16:42

So, just to state what I wanted to know from Shapeways Support :
* The customer who ordered it, needs it till 13 september -> SO if I'll be able to fix the issues (which I really think are invalid, because it was printed,casted several times before), is it possible to somehow "push" it a bit forward in the production, so the customer gets it in time ?


You'll have to talk to CS about that

vaclav.mazany wrote on Thu, 30 August 2012 16:42

* Secondly, is the staff who checks the models 110% sure, that this model CANNOT be printed ? I really want to clarify this, because right now, I'm holding this ring, one in silver, one in stainless steel.


It's impossible to be 100% sure without trying. Even if you follow every rule for silver, there will be items that aren't cast-able.

vaclav.mazany wrote on Thu, 30 August 2012 16:42

Or if anyone can sort of, help how should I approach these kind of issues ? Because, if models which were printed before, get rejected. I can keep changing models till eternity.


The thing to do is email CS. But I'll forward on this post to try to get some answers today so you don't have to wait until Monday


I learned a long time ago the wisest thing I can do is be on my own side, be an advocate for myself and others like me. -Maya Angelou
michael@shapeways.com Community Advocate
Re: Print Rejected on Model which was already printed several times [message #53380 is a reply to message #53378 ] Thu, 30 August 2012 17:23 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar vaclav.mazany  is currently offline vaclav.mazany
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Quote:

The thing to do is email CS. But I'll forward on this post to try to get some answers today so you don't have to wait until Monday


Thx for the help. I did contact CS first.

Quote:

Is the gap now smaller than the original?


It "should" be identical, but I could be wrong. The thing is, that the gaps, were there even before, on the original version. But I guess they were filled with silver during casting process. Which isn't problem at all.

The only thing I'm concerned now, is if the customer who ordered it can get it in time.

Quote:

It's impossible to be 100% sure without trying. Even if you follow every rule for silver, there will be items that aren't cast-able.


It's not that I didn't follow the rules, the thing is that it was already printed & casted. It's basicaly just a scaled version.

Quote:

When was your second email? Most of CS is over seas so now they are probably out of office until Monday.

It was about 20mins after I received first email from CS. About 11:49AM CEST
Re: Print Rejected on Model which was already printed several times [message #53382 is a reply to message #53376 ] Thu, 30 August 2012 17:30 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar Youknowwho4eva  is currently offline Youknowwho4eva
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Yes, I know you emailed them, I was just assuring you that that is the proper method for such situations.

I can't help much without seeing the model, and even then I don't check files. But I've forwarded your concerns on. Hopefully we'll here something back soon with more insight.


I learned a long time ago the wisest thing I can do is be on my own side, be an advocate for myself and others like me. -Maya Angelou
michael@shapeways.com Community Advocate
Re: Print Rejected on Model which was already printed several times [message #53385 is a reply to message #53380 ] Thu, 30 August 2012 19:18 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar Bathsheba  is currently offline Bathsheba
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Scaling a model changes both its printing and its casting characteristics, it's very common for a model to be printable at one size and not another.


-Bathsheba
http://bathsheba.com
Re: Print Rejected on Model which was already printed several times [message #53386 is a reply to message #53385 ] Thu, 30 August 2012 19:39 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar vaclav.mazany  is currently offline vaclav.mazany
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Bathsheba wrote on Thu, 30 August 2012 19:18

Scaling a model changes both its printing and its casting characteristics, it's very common for a model to be printable at one size and not another.



I know...
it's not a "simple scaling" . The ring is made of inner "ring" which is simply just a tube with precise inner/outer diameters and "sticks" which are, spawned around it.

Anyways, thx for trying to help. If it's just because of what you're talking, then it's only about if it will make it in time to the customer.
Re: Print Rejected on Model which was already printed several times [message #53387 is a reply to message #53376 ] Thu, 30 August 2012 19:54 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar natalia  is currently offline natalia
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Hi Vaclav,

Unfortunately, the scaled model is a whole new model, so first of all, the fact that the 18mm one was already printed does not apply to this one.

Scaling a model down WILL change the gaps between the parts, they will become smaller. Which means it is possible that now it does not pass printability checks - which seems to be what happened here.

For printing in silver, it will need to be able to be cast from wax to silver - which in itself is difficult for models with many narrow openings - just like is clearly explained in the email from CS.

As for your customer getting it in time, CS is best placed to answer this, and they will see it today or tomorrow is Friday so you don't have to wait for Monday for an answer!

Best,
Natalia


Shapeways Community Manager
Re: Print Rejected on Model which was already printed several times [message #53394 is a reply to message #53387 ] Thu, 30 August 2012 20:53 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar vaclav.mazany  is currently offline vaclav.mazany
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natalia wrote on Thu, 30 August 2012 19:54

Unfortunately, the scaled model is a whole new model, so first of all, the fact that the 18mm one was already printed does not apply to this one.
Scaling a model down WILL change the gaps between the parts, they will become smaller.



I am totally aware of this, BUT 18mm version & 16mm versions were printed before made same way as 17mm which was rejected.
As I said before, it ISN'T simple scale of the model. The model itself is sort of procedural model. The gaps are the "same", we're talking about a change of aprox. 0.05mm

See screenshots of measurements :

http://www.taurris.com/3Dprint/16.jpg
http://www.taurris.com/3Dprint/16_detail.jpg
http://www.taurris.com/3Dprint/16_detail2.jpg
http://www.taurris.com/3Dprint/17.jpg
http://www.taurris.com/3Dprint/17_detail.jpg
http://www.taurris.com/3Dprint/17_detail2.jpg
http://www.taurris.com/3Dprint/18.jpg
http://www.taurris.com/3Dprint/18_detail.jpg
http://www.taurris.com/3Dprint/18_detail2.jpg

I just took one gap as an example, but you can see that the gap is 0.52mm for 18mm ring, 0,5 for 17mm and 0,41mm for 16mm ring.
So we're talking about change of the gap for the 18mm and 17mm rings of about 0,02mm THIS is the problem ?

* 16mm ring WAS printed before in SILVER
* 18mm ring WAS printed before in SILVER
* 17mm ring REJECTED in SILVER


You can even see that I made the inner circle thicker for the 17mm.

As I said, before mandatory thing for me now is, if it'll make to the customer in time if changed/updated, but on the other hand : I really don't see any reason why the differences should cause the ring to be not-castable.

So just to clarify, IF I'll change the model so that the gaps are as they are in 18mm ring (this means making them 0,02mm bigger), the ring will be ready for production ?
Re: Print Rejected on Model which was already printed several times [message #53437 is a reply to message #53376 ] Fri, 31 August 2012 17:55 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar natalia  is currently offline natalia
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Hi Vaclav,

I can understand your frustration and I can not say instantly yes or no if making the gaps bigger will make the ring printable. In traditional casting, silver would just flow to those areas and be filled in, but because we 3D print first, we use those rules to judge the makability of your model, and they are more strict than just plain casting.

It is possible that because this did not go through the normal co-creator system (which we know is currently down) that we could not see it was printed before.With InShape 2.0 we are moving towards having a "Printed Before" flag so this kind of issue does not come up.

As we print more models we are learning what kind of models are possible in silver- this model is quite complex to cast so I can imagine that the other times it was printed it is possible they tried many times before it was a success.

My suggestion may be to fill in those gaps, so the model becomes less complex for printing/casting, (rather than making the gaps bigger)
but I can not give you a guarantee that it will be printable.

I believe CS has gotten in touch with you to faster solve this!

Best,
Natalia









Shapeways Community Manager
Re: Print Rejected on Model which was already printed several times [message #53440 is a reply to message #53437 ] Fri, 31 August 2012 18:24 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar vaclav.mazany  is currently offline vaclav.mazany
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natalia wrote on Fri, 31 August 2012 17:55


My suggestion may be to fill in those gaps, so the model becomes less complex for printing/casting, (rather than making the gaps bigger)
but I can not give you a guarantee that it will be printable.



Thats exactly what I did, but I got recomendation from CS that I should make them bigger Smile I really hope, that making them filled makes it castable....

natalia wrote on Fri, 31 August 2012 17:55


I believe CS has gotten in touch with you to faster solve this!



Well, it depends. CS did contact me, again just once, but didn't respond to my 2nd nor 3rd email.

Still, I lack a response, if it's possible to make the silver ring in time for the customer. But because it's already Friday and NOBODY was able to give me any answer on this... so I guess it won't, sadly. So I guess I'll have to tell the customer.

Another thing, I uploaded new version of the 17mm ring, but after several hours, the image isn't rendered yet, nor 3D preview. Don't know what it means ? But I've tried to upload it once more, I'll see how this try goes.

natalia wrote on Fri, 31 August 2012 17:55


this model is quite complex to cast so I can imagine that the other times it was printed it is possible they tried many times before it was a success.



Frankly.... how should I know ? Nobody tells such things. If there would be someone telling such info, it would catch such problems in early stages, but not after 1 year Sad ... but, as I read it, you're just guessing on this I think.
Re: Print Rejected on Model which was already printed several times [message #53445 is a reply to message #53440 ] Fri, 31 August 2012 19:30 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar JACANT  is currently offline JACANT
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Can I make a suggestion?
Why don't you use the biggest sized ring you have, so you are not altering or scaling the outer 'matchsticks'. Make the inner ring solid, then just do a boolean subtract with a 17mm cylinder or to the size you want, then just clean up the edges.


jacantdesign@gmail.com
Re: Print Rejected on Model which was already printed several times [message #53449 is a reply to message #53437 ] Fri, 31 August 2012 19:59 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar stop4stuff  is currently offline stop4stuff
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natalia wrote on Fri, 31 August 2012 17:55

Hi Vaclav,

I can understand your frustration and I can not say instantly yes or no if making the gaps bigger will make the ring printable. In traditional casting, silver would just flow to those areas and be filled in, but because we 3D print first, we use those rules to judge the makability of your model, and they are more strict than just plain casting.

It is possible that because this did not go through the normal co-creator system (which we know is currently down) that we could not see it was printed before.With InShape 2.0 we are moving towards having a "Printed Before" flag so this kind of issue does not come up.

As we print more models we are learning what kind of models are possible in silver- this model is quite complex to cast so I can imagine that the other times it was printed it is possible they tried many times before it was a success.

My suggestion may be to fill in those gaps, so the model becomes less complex for printing/casting, (rather than making the gaps bigger)
but I can not give you a guarantee that it will be printable.

I believe CS has gotten in touch with you to faster solve this!

Best,
Natalia











Don't beat around the bush, please give straight answers to Shapeways' members and customers concerns.

If you have the experience of modelling for Shapeways printed items, please share your experience.

Otherwise, may I respectfully suggest you leave the answers to members of the Shapeways team who have the correct experience for the issue at hand.

Paul

p.s. please don't become a 'Its not a showstopper' Che (pm for more info)
Re: Print Rejected on Model which was already printed several times [message #53454 is a reply to message #53449 ] Fri, 31 August 2012 21:42 UTC Go to previous message
avatar natalia  is currently offline natalia
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Hi Vaclav,

I am not guessing, I know that this is something that happens with models that are printed once then rejected later. Apologies for not clarifying this further, it is a process we are standardizing so we will be more consistent with rejections.
With InShape 2.0 I am pushing REALLY HARD to have the 'printed before' flag available on models so these kinds of issues do not come up. As a 3D modeller myself, I do undertand how frustrating this is!

Jacant's suggestion is also a good one worth trying, but in the end only CS will tell you whether something is printable or not, as they make the decisions, the community can only speculate with what is given.

I'm going to close this thread for now, feel free to PM me or get in touch with CS - I have alerted them to respond to you as soon as possible.

Thank you,
Natalia


Shapeways Community Manager

 
   
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