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Bad printing quality and Printing orientation. Please FIX! [message #51356] Sun, 15 July 2012 08:40 UTC Go to next message
avatar polychemy  is currently offline polychemy
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Ok i have been getting really bad printing results from shapeways lately. Many times the printing orienattion is wrong, giving a very bad look to the main parts of my design.

I purchase this twice spending about $100usd, and i still get the same ugly results.

How am i suppose to sell this type of quality to my customers?


here is a print that was done correctly, notice the smooth surfaces and clean look.
http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y288/xxdaggerxx/IMG_4340.jpg


Now this was was printed wrongly, the whole front side seemed to be sheared off. It also has a very bad feel to it.
The under side on the other hand is smooth.
http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y288/xxdaggerxx/IMG_4361.jpg


I cant sell this stuff to customers, especially people who don't understand 3D printing.

I have ordered the above case TWICE and still got the same results. Can someone please explain to me how i can fix this issue. This problem is obviously due to the printing orientation.


Polychemy - 3D Printing & Design
http://polychemy.com
Re: Bad printing quality and Printing orientation. Please FIX! [message #51360 is a reply to message #51356 ] Sun, 15 July 2012 10:26 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar virtox  is currently offline virtox
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Difficult to see from the photo, but it looks like the second model has coarser edges than the first?
Chamfer the edges usually helps with this problem.

Did you contact customer service about this?

Cheers,

Stijn


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Re: Bad printing quality and Printing orientation. Please FIX! [message #51361 is a reply to message #51356 ] Sun, 15 July 2012 10:28 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar BillBedford  is currently offline BillBedford
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People still don't seem to get this 3D stuff. We get stepping because the pieces are built in layers. If your piece has visible stepping, changing the orientation doesn't eliminate stepping, it just transfers it to a different face. Think of an egg, if the build layers are visible, no matter how it is orientated in the machine there will still be stepping.

The answer is not to try and second guess the orientation, but to try and persuade Shapeways to run some of these machines with a smaller layer thickness. Of course halving the layer thickness will more than double the price, which may not be the magic bullet people were looking for.



Bill Bedford
Re: Bad printing quality and Printing orientation. Please FIX! [message #51362 is a reply to message #51356 ] Sun, 15 July 2012 10:34 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar virtox  is currently offline virtox
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Oh sorry "those" edges, had missed that Embarassed


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Re: Bad printing quality and Printing orientation. Please FIX! [message #51363 is a reply to message #51361 ] Sun, 15 July 2012 10:40 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar polychemy  is currently offline polychemy
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BillBedford wrote on Sun, 15 July 2012 10:28

People still don't seem to get this 3D stuff. We get stepping because the pieces are built in layers. If your piece has visible stepping, changing the orientation doesn't eliminate stepping, it just transfers it to a different face. Think of an egg, if the build layers are visible, no matter how it is orientated in the machine there will still be stepping.

The answer is not to try and second guess the orientation, but to try and persuade Shapeways to run some of these machines with a smaller layer thickness. Of course halving the layer thickness will more than double the price, which may not be the magic bullet people were looking for.




Bill I do get this "3D Stuff",

Let me show you a design i did before, same design with same amount of details. But very well printed, no obvious stepping.

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y288/xxdaggerxx/BlackBerryBeutyShot.jpg

Most of the stepping happens on the UNDERSIDE, which doesn't matter.

Printing orientation makes a BIG difference. Especially for small details.

The problem is inconsistency with the prints. Some times i get good results and sometimes i get bad. Its like a lucky draw now, and I cant built a business that way.

Thanks for the response virtox, ill send them an email soon.


Polychemy - 3D Printing & Design
http://polychemy.com
Re: Bad printing quality and Printing orientation. Please FIX! [message #51364 is a reply to message #51356 ] Sun, 15 July 2012 11:05 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar virtox  is currently offline virtox
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The curves on that last one look a lot rounder than on the other model?
That makes a huge difference, because the stepping is also smeared out over a larger surface.

And yes print orientation has influence, but the curvature in the model has major influence on that.


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Re: Bad printing quality and Printing orientation. Please FIX! [message #51365 is a reply to message #51364 ] Sun, 15 July 2012 11:20 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar polychemy  is currently offline polychemy
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virtox wrote on Sun, 15 July 2012 11:05

The curves on that last one look a lot rounder than on the other model?
That makes a huge difference, because the stepping is also smeared out over a larger surface.

And yes print orientation has influence, but the curvature in the model has major influence on that.



The design is the same. On both fingerprint designs. The Iphone and blackberry case use the same design.

All have hard edge with a bevel.

But the printing is noticeably different.

In fact for the iphone case, the under side of the case is very smooth, but the front facing side is rough and "sheared" off.

But in reality the 3D model is exactly the same on both sides.
Something is wrong with the printing.


Polychemy - 3D Printing & Design
http://polychemy.com
Re: Bad printing quality and Printing orientation. Please FIX! [message #51366 is a reply to message #51365 ] Sun, 15 July 2012 11:57 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar virtox  is currently offline virtox
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Well I mean, if you look a the cross section of the phones themselves, the blackberry looks rounder than the iphone, but I have neither of those, so I can't be sure.
Could you post renders of both models side by side?

Btw CS is closed during weekends, so it might take a while for them to answer.


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Re: Bad printing quality and Printing orientation. Please FIX! [message #51367 is a reply to message #51365 ] Sun, 15 July 2012 12:07 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar BillBedford  is currently offline BillBedford
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I think the side you have called 'smooth' is wrong. If you look closely there appears to be a bulge in the middle of each of the lines. I have assumed when I have had prints like this that the powder has been over heated and melted more that it should have. I can be a real pig to deal with if the surface has to be fitted to something else.


Bill Bedford
Re: Bad printing quality and Printing orientation. Please FIX! [message #51371 is a reply to message #51367 ] Sun, 15 July 2012 12:51 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar polychemy  is currently offline polychemy
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I'll talk to CS tmr.

I have had this problem on other prints as well.
Once i printed 10 pieces of a certain design for a customer, and 2 out of the 10 had this "shearing" problem.

My customer was'nt happy at all. Very bad for business i must say!


Polychemy - 3D Printing & Design
http://polychemy.com
Re: Bad printing quality and Printing orientation. Please FIX! [message #51372 is a reply to message #51371 ] Sun, 15 July 2012 13:12 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar polychemy  is currently offline polychemy
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Ok, i did up an image to illustrate my point.

Both sides of the case feels different. And the printing quality for the front side does not look as desirable as the back.

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y288/xxdaggerxx/Compare.jpg

*I am not complaing about the stepping, My problem is with the roughed textured front side. It seems as if it has been "sheared" off, for a lack of a better term..

[Updated on: Sun, 15 July 2012 13:17 UTC]


Polychemy - 3D Printing & Design
http://polychemy.com
Re: Bad printing quality and Printing orientation. Please FIX! [message #51415 is a reply to message #51356 ] Mon, 16 July 2012 14:01 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar natalia  is currently offline natalia
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polychemy, As virtox said, it's best to contact CS directly with this, as they have the power to fix it for you.

While we can't yet let people specify print orientation, If it's known that one orientation versus another works better then we do try to accomodate those requests.


Best,
Natalia


Shapeways Community Manager
Re: Bad printing quality and Printing orientation. Please FIX! [message #51436 is a reply to message #51356 ] Mon, 16 July 2012 20:55 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar Bunrattypark  is currently offline Bunrattypark
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Part of the problem is that a piece of WSF is like a piece of timber - it is weaker with the grain than across the grain. I found this with small detail features. On an incorrectly orientated model, a heap of small features had sheared off, but when correctly orientated, the model was fully intact.

We are gladly waiting for specified print orientation. The lottery system simply won't do if models are to be publicly saleable.
Re: Bad printing quality and Printing orientation. Please FIX! [message #51909 is a reply to message #51356 ] Thu, 26 July 2012 13:58 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar lensman  is currently offline lensman
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And there is also the problem that it isn't Shapeways themselves that print the models. They are outsourced to more than one company. Different printers, different standards of operating and different quality acceptance...

But I agree that a maker being able to specify build orientation HAS to be high on Shapeways' TO DO list...

Glenn


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Re: Bad printing quality and Printing orientation. Please FIX! [message #52067 is a reply to message #51909 ] Mon, 30 July 2012 05:53 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar Briggsmodels  is currently offline Briggsmodels
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You can partially fool the Shapeways system into guaranteeing your build orientation. You need to build a basket around your model that is equal on the X and Y axis, and so that the Z axis is the biggest dimension (unless your part barely fits into the build envelope of the machines they have). Shapeways runs 3D systems HD3000 and HD3000plus machines. The maximum size of the model is your build envelope. Alternately, if you have a LOT of small parts or a couple large parts, you can make a basket to just fit inside the build envelope. If your parts are critical it will make it possible to get the parts you need.

This is all possible because of the way shapeways shoves stuff through their system. They orient the parts so that the maximum number of them fits into their build envelope. They will rotate the model so that the smallest dimension is facing down. This is not necessarily the best way for your model, so you need to make your part so that the base is equal and the Z axis is the biggest dimension.

Jeff Briggs
Re: Bad printing quality and Printing orientation. Please FIX! [message #52179 is a reply to message #51415 ] Tue, 31 July 2012 23:55 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar patmat2350  is currently offline patmat2350
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natalia wrote on Mon, 16 July 2012 14:01

...

While we can't yet let people specify print orientation, If it's known that one orientation versus another works better then we do try to accomodate those requests.


Best,
Natalia



Hear hear!
I have a set of parts with *mostly* flat panels on the exposed surface... these will clearly be best if oriented parallel to the print plane.

I have a plan, I'll see if it works... I appended to the end of each file the text "...My Zaxis UP Please.stl".

If I can't have my preferred orientation respected, then this service is of little use to me.
Re: Bad printing quality and Printing orientation. Please FIX! [message #52183 is a reply to message #52179 ] Wed, 01 August 2012 06:35 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar virtox  is currently offline virtox
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Re Briggsmodels
I'm not so sure that production would be happy with such practices, as it will hugely impact the spatial planning of the tray, if they cannot compact the tray, and the printer density per tray goes down, the cost will need to go up Wink
And I think the biggest axis in most printers is the X axis, so I'm not entirely sure making Z the largest will help much?

Re patmat2350:
Smile I do not think the name of the .stl will matter much, as far as I can tell the name is lost/changed once in the process chain (to model id or similar)
You might have a chance with the model title.
But even then, which axis is Z or up is not really defined in STL and more matter of which software is used.
I think the upload render takes an educated guess based on file type.
So it's no real guarantee.

But I agree, it is becoming more and more important that print orientation can be chosen and/or guaranteed to always be the same.
This will however make things more complicated for printer planners and logistics and might bump the prices up.

[Updated on: Wed, 01 August 2012 06:41 UTC]


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Re: Bad printing quality and Printing orientation. Please FIX! [message #52185 is a reply to message #52183 ] Wed, 01 August 2012 08:05 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar polychemy  is currently offline polychemy
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Hi everyone, I have spoken to CS, they say they don't know what's the problem.

Anyway, they weill be reprinting the defective designs. Hopefully the print quality will be better. I have my doubts, but for my customers sake i hope everything is solved.


Polychemy - 3D Printing & Design
http://polychemy.com
Re: Bad printing quality and Printing orientation. Please FIX! [message #52702 is a reply to message #52185 ] Thu, 16 August 2012 10:11 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar polychemy  is currently offline polychemy
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Hi everyone, I'm glad to say the problem has been fixed!
The printing is much better now!

Thanks Shapeways for reprinting them! Smile

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y288/xxdaggerxx/IMG_4447.jpg

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y288/xxdaggerxx/IMG_4449.jpg

Also I have just recently opened my shop, check it out here:
Polychemy Shapeways Shop.

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y288/xxdaggerxx/ShapewaysA.jpg

The IPhone cases were also featured recently on trendhunter.com!
http://www.trendhunter.com/trends/polchemy-3d-printed-iphone -case


Polychemy - 3D Printing & Design
http://polychemy.com
Re: Bad printing quality and Printing orientation. Please FIX! [message #52734 is a reply to message #51356 ] Thu, 16 August 2012 21:12 UTC Go to previous messageGo to next message
avatar natalia  is currently offline natalia
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Hi Polychemy, I'm glad that worked out, your shop looks great!


Shapeways Community Manager
Re: Bad printing quality and Printing orientation. Please FIX! [message #53656 is a reply to message #52183 ] Wed, 05 September 2012 19:32 UTC Go to previous message
avatar Briggsmodels  is currently offline Briggsmodels
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This is getting a little funny actually, and would be a lot funnier if I wasn't trying to accomplish something. I have uploaded two different versions of my file, after fixing it for Shapeways the way they suggested, then I got emails a week later, saying my design couldn't be printed, citing geometry.

BUT- on small parts, it's apparent that creating a basket of equal dimensions on the XY planes, and having the Z plane slightly bigger, does work to get your orientation. I have done it for several parts now, amazing looking parts. They just don't like it when you use up the entire build basket. All my parts are FUD, and it has a build basket of 5" (X) x 6" (Y) x 7" (Z) Twisted Evil . Hmph. So what if my part actually WAS the size of the build basket? I don't want to order one to find out, but would it be rejected?

I may just try this a little later....a big soaring bridge model. It might have some little detail parts nested near the footings...

Jeff Briggs
Briggs Models

 
   
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